Open thread. The road to tyranny starts in Washington DC. MSNBC has a larger video viewer, here.
DrewM. at AOSHQ has a perspective on today.
Have a Dem rep? Find here if yours is leaning. Then call.
Malkin: Democrats and the death of deliberative democracy.
PJM: ObamaCare’s Redistribution of Health.
WSJ: What the Pelosi Health-Care Bill Really Says. What government first regulates, eventually it mandates.
First Things: Obamacare: Forcing Doctors to Violate the Hippocratic Oath.
Investor’s: Health Reform Would Bury Small Business.
Comment by JHo on 11/7 @ 11:47 am #
You could call it sausage-making if you wanted to. That works too.
Comment by geoffb on 11/7 @ 12:21 pm #
We are what is being ground up to be encased and hung out to dry.
Comment by geoffb on 11/7 @ 12:29 pm #
Questions for “Blue Dogs”.
How much did you get to deliver your 700,000 district constituents into State-slavery?
What exactly is the cost today of a slave in your estimation?
Do you think you got the fair market value at the closed door auction?
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/7 @ 12:41 pm #
I can barely bring myself to watch it. It’s watching like a train wreck in slow motion; one that the engineers willingly brought on…
Sure! let’s saddle the economy with another 2.5 trillion dollar entitlement; and destroy the finest on-demand health care system on earth…
I mean, we’ll all be able to become medical tourists-to Cuba!, after Obama normalizes relations with them.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 12:46 pm #
What If They Can’t Find 218?
See, I’m still wondering, albeit not gleefully but without anything in the way of trepidation, “What if they can find 218?” In the bigger picture, huzzahs for their stupidity, verging on imbecility.
Comment by B Moe on 11/7 @ 1:04 pm #
Speaking of sausage.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 1:20 pm #
well there’s that then
Comment by geoffb on 11/7 @ 2:17 pm #
Text of HR 3962
Comment by SBP on 11/7 @ 2:18 pm #
Forget Obama’s birth certificate. Has anyone seen Waxman’s?
‘Cause I’m pretty sure that’s some species of orc rather than a human being.
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 2:26 pm #
Hoyer’s speech to the press was hysterical. He forgot to take his knee pads off, and had some lurv spunk still dripping off his chin.
Comment by dicentra on 11/7 @ 2:57 pm #
‘Cause I’m pretty sure that’s some species of orc rather than a human being.
Not Uruk’Hai? Those white handprints do wash off, ya know.
Comment by dicentra on 11/7 @ 2:58 pm #
If this train wreck passes, can we repeal? Can we get SCOTUS to strike down? Can we get the states together and vote NO!!
I hates politicians. I really hates them.
Comment by JHo on 11/7 @ 3:02 pm #
Probably.
Nearly two-dozen have said they’d not enforce.
House Dems are playing with fire.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 3:14 pm #
Would you all indulge me in a bit of vote gaming speculation? What I’m wondering in particular is if you know whether there are enough Democrat votes in favor of the Stupak amnd’t to pass it on their own, i.e., without the help of Republican votes? I’d assume of course that most of the Republicans would want to vote with Stupak to bar Fed Funds from going to abortions. However, suppose the Dems cannot pass the overall Bill, HR 3962, without the support of Dems like Stupak and his party allies. Suppose further that knowing the Dems haven’t the votes to pass and satisfy Stupak et al, the Repubs were to abstain or even in some cases to vote (tactically) in opposition to Stupak’s amnd’t and thus take it to defeat. Might we see some such scenario take place?
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 3:19 pm #
Sdferr - The pro-choicers will go along even if Stpak passes. This is the holy grail of Leftist causes right now. Plus, they know they still have the Senate and conference committees to get what they want.
Comment by dicentra on 11/7 @ 3:19 pm #
Nearly two-dozen have said they’d not enforce.
However, I’m informed that the bill offers states juicy financial incentives to sign up. They might oppose today but cave in tomorrow.
Comment by dicentra on 11/7 @ 3:21 pm #
I don’t know if the Republicans will vote against Stupak, but what irony that by passing it many Blue Dogs will go ahead and vote yes on Pelosicare.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 3:24 pm #
“The pro-choicers will go along even if Stpak passes.”
But that’s the point. If Stupak doesn’t pass he and his allies will not go along with Pelosi and without them (and others for other reasons) Pelosi can’t pass (or at least, so I am led to believe).
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 3:26 pm #
Or to put it another way, if Pelosi could pass her big bill without Stupak, why would she go to the trouble of acquiescing to him at this late date? She could just blow him and his votes off and pass her bill without them, no? So why take the trouble?
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 3:33 pm #
I hope they fail.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 3:38 pm #
This may prove to be yet another example of the incompetence of the Republican leadership, if the vote-gaming I’m conjecturing should be possible (I still don’t know whether it is or not) and the Reps. fail to take the opportunity. Surely though, they are looking at all the angles. Right?
Comment by Pablo on 11/7 @ 3:42 pm #
Makes sense to me, sdferr. And abstention doesn’t get you in trouble back home.
Comment by Stupak on 11/7 @ 3:49 pm #
Nope. Not gonna happen.
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 3:50 pm #
Abstention gets you elected President.
I just listened to some clown from MA whining about misinformation, followed immediately by him lying and saying over 50% of all bankruptcies are a result of medical bills, and how this will ban pre-existing condition discrimination and ban lifetime limits for cheaper than the existing system. Ignorance or dishonesty?
Comment by JHo on 11/7 @ 4:15 pm #
We’re past the tipping point. The House Dems are at the moment indulging in total wanton pandering and that sanctimonious, moralizing, indignant bullshit about medicine being a right they’ve been working on for 100 years. I’ve never seen anything like it.
The country is soft in the head and they’re all just grasping for what’s left before it all falls down. Bankrupting what’s left so as to finally collectivize it all and clapping themselves on the back for their vision.
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 4:21 pm #
The House Dems are the reason why the trolls are either/both ignorant or dishonest.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 4:31 pm #
Covered over at AoS by Drew M. I get somewhat mixed signals from his post.
So if Drew M gets it, how come the Republicans don’t?
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 4:55 pm #
Because the Republicans are Teh Stooooopid, sdferr.
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 4:57 pm #
This “debate” is an orgy of lies, obfuscation, emo, and anecdotes from the House Dems.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 5:15 pm #
Hmmm, hello happy day, way to go Middies! and ‘Bama’s down to LSU 15-10, though Miles found himself a way to lose going for two. Dense that man, density fit to be parceled out as GAU-8 ammo.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 5:23 pm #
i keep sticking pins into my safrannan doll. maybe that will help kill the bill.
Comment by dicentra on 11/7 @ 5:47 pm #
@mkhammer Pelosi: “There’s a cap on what you can pay in, but no cap on benefits.” There’s a recipe for lowering costs, huh? Any good biz will tell ya.
Comment by dicentra on 11/7 @ 5:48 pm #
Because the Republicans are Teh Stooooopid, sdferr.
Two parties: stupid and dangerous.
IOW it’s always between Scylla and Carybdis.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 6:30 pm #
tar and feathers needs an update: nicotine and asbestos
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 6:51 pm #
The House Dems are truly remarkable.
Comment by Joe on 11/7 @ 7:02 pm #
House Dems display an amazing level of stupidio. They are like hybrid turkeys that will drown by looking up in a rainstorm with their mouths open.
Comment by cynn on 11/7 @ 7:19 pm #
Is there anybody in the room? When do they vote? There’s nobody there. There’s no debate. Maybe I just don’t understand this procedure.
Comment by cynn on 11/7 @ 7:24 pm #
Well, I suppose there’s debate as in canned commentary. Really, this is how they operate? Sausage is too generous a metaphor; more like wastewater treatment.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 7:27 pm #
no blood for oil obami
“Exxon-led group clinches Iraq’s W.Qurna contract”
link
Comment by Pablo on 11/7 @ 8:06 pm #
They’re just aping for the cameras now so they can take the video home and get reelected with it.
Comment by Pablo on 11/7 @ 8:06 pm #
Or, perhaps, not.
Comment by JT on 11/7 @ 8:12 pm #
GOP=
Grandstand with BS
Oppose any real progress
Pretend to offer a solution that does nothing
Comment by JHo on 11/7 @ 8:15 pm #
So, JT, is govt required to undertake the acquisition of huge chunks of the private sector? Do elaborate.
You can drag that red herring back and forth all weekend if you want.
Comment by JHo on 11/7 @ 8:16 pm #
9:15pm Eastern - Cantor says 35 Dems going no.
Comment by dicentra on 11/7 @ 8:37 pm #
If you’re interested in seeing a slightly more sophisticated version of poo-flinging than is seen here, check out this thread over at Volokh.
Ilya Somin starts by noting the anniversary of the fall of the USSR, then wonders why our culture is so well-versed in (and suitably outraged at) Nazi atrocities but is less so with the Soviet’s greater (in volume and duration) crimes.
Proggs first start refutation by asserting that Stalin’s crimes are so held in equal disdain with Hitler’s, and then they engage in other forms of obfuscation and denial, and then a commenter utters a fatal line:
Almost all the arguments from there on focus on the word every, as if that bit of imprecision fully negated the FACT that most academics are sympathetic to socialist goals (if not to Mao, Castro, Chávez, Che, etc.).
Oh, and I contribute a few lines that lead to typical progg argumentation techniques. All delightful, of course, and much more nuanced than the troll droppings we get here.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 8:37 pm #
“Oppose any real progress”
sanfrannan is the epitome of “real proggs”. tell that to the tuna workers.
f**kin dems: slave master unleashed you porch ni**ers.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 8:37 pm #
That’s cute JT. The sad part is that is the same level of discourse on display in the house today.
BTW JT, has it escaped your notice that your side has majorities in both houses such that not a single Republican vote is needed for passage?
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 8:41 pm #
Boehner is rather entertaining.
Comment by Matt on 11/7 @ 8:48 pm #
*Oppose any real progress*
Obamapelosi care is actually reverse progress.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 8:56 pm #
i like bein’ a slave dem pol. giv me some health care.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 8:58 pm #
Certainly someone who posseses the intellectual horsepower necessary to generate comment #42 would know which party controls the house.
Bumper sticker slogans pass for intelligent discourse on the left.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 9:00 pm #
nice plantation you proggs run. keep them ni88gers girls going to planned parenthood. yo scoccofavaaa nice margret sanger award. gotsto make money.
yo acorn.
Comment by Pablo on 11/7 @ 9:00 pm #
They’re voting on the Stupak amendment now. The Republicans are all Yea thus far.
Haven’t you people learned anything? Vote Present!
Comment by Pablo on 11/7 @ 9:04 pm #
The Dems are strongly against it, 101-20 right now.
Please God, let Pelosi fumble this! I can giggle about that shit for days.
Comment by Sticky B on 11/7 @ 9:08 pm #
whazzup w caucasian dems?
They wanna be targets or whut?
Comment by Pablo on 11/7 @ 9:12 pm #
Stupak is now passing, because Republicans are fucking stupid. Still all Yea, not a Present among them.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 9:15 pm #
55 dems jump ship
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 9:16 pm #
Was JT a one and done? Pity. I was looking forward to a bit of troll swatting. Also, since his nic is too close to JD, i will henceforth refer to JT as s4b. I’ll leave it up to you,s4b, to figure that out.
Comment by Pablo on 11/7 @ 9:19 pm #
1 GOP Present vote. 238-192 (with 4 NV’s) 176 Republican Yeas. Idiots.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 9:23 pm #
Stunning. I don’t have the words.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 9:25 pm #
Republicans say socialized medicine is great as long as dead fetuses are a la carte.
Comment by geoffb on 11/7 @ 9:35 pm #
JT perhaps
Just Timmah, or short for J(ust)TTP
Either way JH, Just Hammer.
Comment by geoffb on 11/7 @ 9:38 pm #
When you have made a shit sandwich, the person forced to eat it doesn’t care that you only brought the bread.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 9:38 pm #
A lurker named Katharine at JOM uncloaks and writes:
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 9:44 pm #
We believe you just don’t play politics with life burble the insipid homopublicans.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 9:46 pm #
are aids fetuses covered in the abortion bill?
Comment by geoffb on 11/7 @ 9:49 pm #
But they just did, with mine and 300 million others, and it will all be for naught in the end. Idiots brought the bread. Dems got the filling covered.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 9:51 pm #
176 Republican Yeas. Idiots.
I must respectfully disagree. This was a vote on principle. You are either pro life or you are not.
Having said that, let me get to the political tactics at play. This bill is going to pass the house, by hook or by crook. We all know that this amendment will be stripped from the final bill. At that point the pressure is on pro life representatives, both rep and dem, to vote no.
Having voted against this amendment would give cover to the house leadership. As sure as I’m sitting here the cry would have been “You didn’t care about it before! Look, you even voted against the Stupak amendment. Hypocrite!”
No, what you see here is conservation of force for future engagement.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 9:52 pm #
No fetuses were harmed in the making of this dirty socialist third world backwater. Bravely done, Mr. Pence. Bravely done.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 9:55 pm #
Oh, and one other point. This will never get to Obama’s desk. He will, at some point, sign something into law, but it will bear little resemblance to what we see in the house today. Nancy will have her victory but the glory will be fleeting.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 9:57 pm #
Perhaps I have not been drinking enough today. I shall have to remedy that.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 9:59 pm #
Now that the House vote is nearly done we get this.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:08 pm #
Bullshit. It just takes a few phone calls to homosocialist Jeffy Immelt and Evan “Obama is a sort of God” Thomas.
Comment by JT on 11/7 @ 10:10 pm #
game over … now STFU losers
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:17 pm #
It’s hardly game over. There are so many analogies in the works. The one I have my eye on is what happens to the housing market after the dirty socialist welfare runs out. LOL.
Comment by B Moe on 11/7 @ 10:18 pm #
No it wasn’t. You are either pro fascism or you are not, that is the principle we should be voting on, abortion is an excuse to grandstand and avoid principle in this case.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 10:21 pm #
One Republican voted aye, Joseph Cao La-2, formerly William Jefferson’s district, New Orleans and vicinity. I haven’t heard his rationale. Ought I to surmise his constituents demand it?
Comment by JT on 11/7 @ 10:22 pm #
there will always be fetus fetishists… the same people who love torture
Comment by I Callahan on 11/7 @ 10:22 pm #
I just love commenters like JT. Come in, drop on the carpet, then leave.
Fucking coward lemming pieces of shit, the whole lot of you. All of you idiot 52 percenters just sent us down the road the country’s ruin. I hope you’re proud.
By the way - who was the lone Repub that voted for this piece of shit?
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:23 pm #
oh. That would be the dirty socialist house-buying welfare that every homopublican senator including Meghan’s coward daddy and his little dog Lindsey voted for. The smart money isn’t on capitalism and freedom, is it?
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 10:24 pm #
“game over … now STFU losers”
now the each page of the 20000000 page bill will be read in the senate
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:26 pm #
oh. Looks like some pussy little cumslut named Anh Joseph Cao. Some homo from Louisiana.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 10:27 pm #
“there will always be fetus fetishists”
the obami luvs to kill them
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 10:29 pm #
No it wasn’t. You are either pro fascism or you are not, that is the principle we should be voting on, abortion is an excuse to grandstand and avoid principle in this case.
You make a good point, B Moe. Reading back on my comment I think I was a bit unclear. I think they had no choice in voting for it. I also don’t think it mad any difference. Nancy was going to get this through one way or another. Voting that amendment down for political, tactical reasons would have been counterproductive.
On another note, thanks for stopping back by s4b and proving my point. Can your brain, or what’s left of it, generate anything more than catchy phrases and bumper sticker slogans?
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:30 pm #
fetus fetishists is apt… and their idiocy just gave state-sponsored abortion a huge leg up. Thank you Mr. Pence and Mr. Cantor.
Comment by geoffb on 11/7 @ 10:31 pm #
I pray you are correct Big D but I don’t see this that way. Being Pro-Life is pro all life not just conception to birth. Everything in this bill drips of death, for the USA, for freedom, hell for all in the world not of the tran-national nomen klatura.
If any of this mess gets passed it will be the wedge in the door to push through more draconian measures, or even just do it by rules and regs. Every piece of it is designed to destroy the private health-care system. Bind everyone to the State. Progg heaven in legislation clothing. Nothing should reach Obama with any other than Dem paws on it.
As I said, I pray you are right.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 10:32 pm #
mr. coburn read all of the bills to the senate
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 10:33 pm #
Now all we need is for snowcone to show up and tell us all how Santa Anna defeated the Germans in the Crimean War and my night will be complete.
Comment by B Moe on 11/7 @ 10:34 pm #
Maybe so. I don’t know. I am drunk as fuck and don’t even know if I care any more.
On the bright side, I went on an intentionalism tirade at the bar tonight and I honest to God think some folks were getting it.
Comment by Matt on 11/7 @ 10:36 pm #
Did any douchebag republicans vote for this monstrosity ? And while I understand Big D’s sentiment, those repubs who supported it for the purposes of banning government sponsored abortions are absolute suckers. EVERY negotiation starts with an over the top demand. The dems completely played pro-life congressman by pushing the abortion angle.
I’m absolutely ashamed of my country right now. And its the first time I’ve ever said that. The constitution means crap to these people. The economy means crap to these people.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:37 pm #
Mikey and Eric didn’t intend to write Planned Parenthood a kabillion dollar check but they sure did.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 10:37 pm #
Then the giant middle-finger of the House, having writ, moves on to passage 480 - 0 of a blandified-eyes-closed-watery condemnation of the “tragic” shootings at Ft. Hood offering support to the families of the lost and surviving wounded. Major Hasan was unavailable for comment.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:37 pm #
one little coward from Louisiana what loves his office more than he loves his country, Matt… scroll up to #82
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 10:38 pm #
Or 77.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:40 pm #
oops. good call Mr. sdferr.
Comment by Matt on 11/7 @ 10:41 pm #
Bleh, BLEH BLEH BLEH. Thanks HF- look at the first sentence of second paragraph of that profile.
I can’t get this horrible taste out my mouth. And frackin san fran nan’s face actually changed shape, she’s so happy, which makes me want to doubly puke.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 10:41 pm #
Everything in this bill drips of death, for the USA, for freedom, hell for all in the world not of the tran-national nomen klatura.
Which is why it will ultimately fail. The Founders set the Senate up to be the more deliberative body. Hot heads in the house, cooler heads in the Senate so to speak.
The ultimate fail-safe on this is that the benefits don’t go into effect until 2013, but the taxes will start right after passage, a tactical blunder of the highest order. Three years of revenue without the benefits may do wonders for the CBO scoring, but will not play well with the public. If the bene’s have not begun, there will still be a chance to repeal.
As I have said, this is a win for Nancy, but it’s a long way from being signed into law.
As I said, I pray you are right.
So do I…every night. I have five children that I do not wish to see saddled with this burden.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 10:43 pm #
Maybe so. I don’t know. I am drunk as fuck and don’t even know if I care any more.
I’m working on that too.
Comment by Matt on 11/7 @ 10:43 pm #
ok since only one republican apparently voted for it, I can safely tell the majority in congress to kiss my big white shiny capitalist ass.
I DON’T have health care right now. Its my own fault and to some extent, my choice. I don’t think government should give it to me. i blame nobody but me.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 10:46 pm #
I’m kinda itchy to see Mecca glassified. It’s so wrong to think, I know, but I blame Islamists.
Comment by newrouter on 11/7 @ 10:47 pm #
major hasan the infidel dems are calling
Comment by JD on 11/7 @ 10:47 pm #
Better Half uttered some Vietnamese words tonite that I had never heard before.
The Dem presser is puke inducing. They are calling Granny McRictus the Greaterest Speaker EVAH !!!!
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:48 pm #
pretty sure it’s cowardice more than ethnicity, really, or nationality or whatever… it’s the homopublicans what put sanctimony before honor what I think is the takeaway really
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:50 pm #
We believe you just don’t play politics with life.
that’s a definite keeper
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 10:52 pm #
and I’ll gladly stand up, next to you, and sanctimoniously pretend to be saving teh wittle fetuses, cause there ain’t no doubt I lurv lurv lurv this land
Comment by DarthRove on 11/7 @ 10:55 pm #
A pox on all their houses. A nasty, smelly, painful pox on their most sensitive personal areas. A pox that their new medical slaves tell them can’t be treated because they’ve used their allotment of treatment for the month, so sorry.
Fuck them with a rusty chainsaw. Twice. With no lube.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 11:01 pm #
Feets,
This was going to pass with or without the amendment. The battle may be lost, but the war is far from over. Reid already kicked it into 2010 which makes passage unlikely, at least in its current form.
Comment by Matt on 11/7 @ 11:01 pm #
now this is when the social cons and economic cons need to come together. Yes, I think abortion sucks but this bill will not change that. What it WILL change is our economy (by destroying it) and the health care system (by giving it to the government). I’ve said before I have this debate with my parents, who are older and extremely conservative- they are very much pro-life advocates- and I tell them sometimes you’ll have to compromise that, BECAUSE there’s nothing you can do about it right now.
Its a tough thing because they consider abortion murder and think its the most important issue ever. I do not agree. It is a big issue but there are issues equally big which must be addressed sometimes without the shadow of abortion leading people by the nose.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 11:02 pm #
the Republicans didn’t go down fighting that I saw. They just went down.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 11:03 pm #
Other people’s abortions are none of my business unless the government is paying for them. Mr. Pence does not share my values.
Comment by sdferr on 11/7 @ 11:06 pm #
“This was going to pass with or without the amendment.”
I don’t know that that is true Big D. I think with only 3 votes to spare it may well be possible it would not have passed without the earlier passage of Stupak’s amnd’t. A closer analysis of the votes cast would be necessary to get to the bottom of it though. Perhaps it’ll be done in a day or two. Anyhow, I don’t think we should assume it was a done deal at this point.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 11:08 pm #
These pitiful little homopublicans won’t know what’s of the utmost importance until they watch it die screaming in a dirty socialist government hospital.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 11:14 pm #
OT - We adopted a dachsund and a cat (I hate cats but i love my wife. Whataryagonnado). We now have two dogs, two cats, two parrots, two turtles, and two hamsters. On a related note I’m building an ark in my back yard.
If you are looking for a pet, please check the shelters first.
Now to get down to some serious drinking.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 11:20 pm #
dachshunds are my favorite kind almost… they just never stop being cute. Unless they get fat.
Comment by Freedoms Truth on 11/7 @ 11:21 pm #
“Forget Obama’s birth certificate. Has anyone seen Waxman’s?
‘Cause I’m pretty sure that’s some species of orc rather than a human being.”
Waxman of course is the inspiration for the series “V”.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 11:22 pm #
I told y’all about OG rescuing the dog but I found out later how much he spent stitching it back together at the vet. $700.
He’s a very good person.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 11:25 pm #
I’ve thought about that a great deal, sdferr. Nancy would have kept at it until she had the votes. Too Much at stake for her. Ahe could not afford to let members go home for the holiday to face their constituents. It had to be done tonight.
I don’t think much of the house GOP, but neither do I want to fall into the “damn those republicans” trap.
Comment by Freedoms Truth on 11/7 @ 11:27 pm #
“I DON’T have health care right now. Its my own fault and to some extent, my choice. I don’t think government should give it to me. i blame nobody but me.”
And now The bill says you have committed a Federal crime. … Uncle Sam can fine you $250,000 and send you to prison for 20 years for missing your medical insurance.
This is how liberals show how they ‘care’. Love … in a “Mommie Dearest” fashion.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 11:28 pm #
Ahe=She
I haven’t got this iphone down yet.
Comment by Freedoms Truth on 11/7 @ 11:29 pm #
“I don’t think much of the house GOP, but neither do I want to fall into the “damn those republicans” trap.”
Uh, what exactly could they do anyway? Pelosi has 40 Blue Dog / Pelosi poodles of majority padding to play with, and oodles of Obama walking-around-earmarks.
She also runs the House like a prison warden. Cap-and-trade was chock full of side-deals, who knows what they stuffed into the 2000 page monstrosity.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 11:30 pm #
The damn those Republicans trap isn’t til after the primaries I don’t think Mr. D.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 11:36 pm #
That was my point exactly, Freedoms Truth.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 11:37 pm #
Meghan’s coward daddy has a primary in 2010. The results will tell you all you need to know I think about the fate of our little country.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 11:38 pm #
You can call me D , Happyfeet. No need for the honorific among friends!
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 11:40 pm #
Thanks! You can call me happyfeet!
Comment by ghost707 on 11/7 @ 11:40 pm #
They will get this bill passed, one way or another.
If Nancy sees it too difficult to pass the Senate, mark my word, it will go to Obama’s desk and be turned into an Executive Order.
I’ll wager money on it.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 11:50 pm #
They will get this bill passed, one way or another.
If Nancy sees it too difficult to pass the Senate, mark my word, it will go to Obama’s desk and be turned into an Executive Order.
I’ll wager money on it.
Never happen, ghost. You’re assuming that the goal here is health care reform. The goal for Obama is to have a big signing ceremony in the Rose garden to much fanfare. The details of what’s included in the legislation matter little.
This is, of course, to say nothing of the legality of an executive order such as you describe. I’ll leave that to the legal minds here.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 11:51 pm #
Happyfeet, you never cease to bring the laughs.
Comment by ghost707 on 11/7 @ 11:52 pm #
Thanks Big D, that quick roll call of the family pet situation actually cheered me up. Got a quick lol out of it.
FYI, those cats be tearing up your furniture most likely - keep them out in the ark.
Comment by Big D on 11/7 @ 11:57 pm #
I’d kick the cats out if I could, ghost. Something tells me that I would be outside before the cats.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/7 @ 11:58 pm #
does this count as ceasing?
Comment by Big D on 11/8 @ 12:02 am #
I’ve always thought that the only thing keeping cats from murdering us in our sleep is the lack of opposable thumbs. If they figure out how to work the can opener, I’m toast.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:03 am #
have we talked about how anti-family the little president man’s health care is? If the government picks up health care for poor people, and income is assessed on a couple not the individual, then people … meaning single moms … what are on the government tit already are going to have a disincentive to marry, no?
Comment by Big D on 11/8 @ 12:04 am #
Ironically, that only solidified support for the legislation, clearing the way for conservative Democrats to vote for it.*
Again, it was going to pass one way or another. She would have kept them there overnight if need be. Wouldn’t matter to her. Her eyes can’t close anyway.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:09 am #
unless you’re an individual making over half a mil then you need to get your ass a wife
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:16 am #
but this was how it passed… you know, if I hadn’t read that dripping with poncey sanctimony statement from Pence and Cantor I don’t think I’d be near as bothered…
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:16 am #
the capital L life part really sold it I think
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 12:23 am #
Jen Rubin puts it well:
Comment by ghost707 on 11/8 @ 12:23 am #
Yes I see your point, however, I am looking at this from a different perspective.
We essentially stopped being the United States and became New Zimbabwe on January 20th.
Obama has already shredded legally binding contracts, half of his cabinet are tax cheats, the TARP program was nothing more than a Madoff scheme to transfer money to crooks, the State of California is taxing without representation, etc etc ad infinitum.
Although, what they will probably do is water it down to pass it, then quietly slip in the more toxic elements in a defense spending bill that no one will have time to read.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:23 am #
dirty socialist Associated Press whore Jeannine Aversa doesn’t even pause in her quest for a third stimulus… when the bitch has her orders, she has her orders.
a dirty socialist Associated Press whore Jeannine Aversa sampler:
> But since the decline of the size and influence of unions, “that would be inconceivable today,” says University of Illinois professor Michael LeRoy, who studies unions.
> “It will scar a generation of kids,” he says.
> And government surveys suggest that if you get laid off, it’s more likely to be for good.
> Because he does not have health insurance, Schenk’s financial pressures would grow dramatically if he became injured or sick.
Comment by Big D on 11/8 @ 12:26 am #
Disappointed Democratic abortion rights supporters grumbled about the turn of events, but pulled back quickly from any thought of opposing the health care bill in protest.
These are the most liberal members of Congress. Do you really think they would have ever opposed this bill?
To pay for the expansion of coverage, the bill cuts Medicare’s projected spending by more than $400 billion over a decade.
This is why it will never pass. The individual members now get to go home for the Veterans Day recess. Guess who’s there to greet them? Their constituents. The seniors know what is in the bill. They know damn good and well what it means when supporters say that they will squeeze savings out Medicare.
To think that Congress will cut Medicare by a half a trillion dollars is pure fantasy. It was put in the bill for the express purpose of reducing the price tag via the CBO scoring. It will never happen.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:27 am #
exactly, that’s why if there were a weak link it was Sleestak’s bunch
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:28 am #
meaning this part
These are the most liberal members of Congress.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:29 am #
The homopublicans were more scared of a pro-life primary challenge than concerned for what dirty socialist health care will do to our little country.
I really believe that.
Comment by Big D on 11/8 @ 12:31 am #
Although, what they will probably do is water it down to pass it, then quietly slip in the more toxic elements in a defense spending bill that no one will have time to read.
That is my fear as well, but I still don’t think they’ll be able to do it. There aren’t the votes in the senate and the nuclear option would, I believe, bring open revolt in that body.
Make no mistake, I think we are on dangerous ground here and I do not seek to minimize that. However, I think we are a ways from the pitchforks and torches.
Comment by Big D on 11/8 @ 12:34 am #
The homopublicans were more scared of a pro-life primary challenge than concerned for what dirty socialist health care will do to our little country.
Pro life groups will carry the least amount of weight in 2010. No, 2010 will be about fiscal insanity. Even single issue voters will recognize that, for the most part.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:35 am #
wow. The dirty socialist Associated Press is doing a full court press for Stimulus Boondoggle II this weekend:
That’s “analysis” from some AP propaganda slut named Jim Kuhnhenn.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:37 am #
oops - that was supposed to be Stimulus Boondoggle III
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 12:39 am #
EPI:
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 12:40 am #
I think that’s the shop Jared Bernstein was in before he went to work for Biden.
Comment by ghost707 on 11/8 @ 12:42 am #
That and the 11% (and climbing) unemployment rate.
Comment by Big D on 11/8 @ 12:44 am #
What all this amounts to is another stimulus for the economy. Though don’t look for Democrats to call it that; Democrats have a tough enough time debating the merits of the $787 billion stimulus Congress passed earlier this year.
Maybe it’s time for pitchforks and torches after all. Say, didn’t Squid say he had a pitchfork business?
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:44 am #
Lawrence Mishel’s as bought and paid for as Mark Zandi then I’d guess.
Comment by ghost707 on 11/8 @ 12:47 am #
And by this time next year GM and Chrysler will be on it’s 4th or 5th bailout.
The Treasury will essentially be printing Monopoly money by then.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 12:48 am #
new aid to states, an “infrastructure bank” to increase construction jobs and small business tax credits
is what the AP is calling for. All things what were tried in Boondoggles I and II and failed failed failed.
Comment by Republican on Acid on 11/8 @ 12:57 am #
Does anyone else feel like they are on the Titanic or is it just me?
Comment by Big D on 11/8 @ 1:02 am #
Titanic, hell! We’re on the SS Minow. A three hour tour.
Comment by Kresh on 11/8 @ 1:04 am #
I just realized something; this is like those dreams you had when you were a kid. You know, the dread and fear that something was waiting around the corner, or in your closet, just waiting to get you. That’s the feeling I get when I hear about what the dems and those without the stones to fight are doing; the nameless dread.
Cthulhu is risen and is snaking it’s horrible tentacles around the capitol building, tunneling through the sewers, and sending it’s minions to infect and subdue all before them. Its brain-worm ridden slaves make necrotic-legislature larvae that will devour us all… and make us pay for the experience. Their timorous hymns echo loudly within the quickly darkening city on the hill, it’s tarnished wall crumbling from the assault within, the beacon upon high guttering and choking in the face of so much fetid air.
And their progg slaves will coo and sigh at the nightmares being spawned in the breeding pools of Washington, delightful of the fact that the spawn will devour all, and none will be safe. America and her values will writhe for all eternity as a mere memory, consumed by the hoary old gluttonous beast, and the world will burn and cry out for forgiveness and succor, only to discover that these is none to be had. This beast has learned its lesson. This time the champion will be a worm-riddled corpse, it’s heart torn out, and it’s bones ground and crushed before the beast turns its eyes to the rest of the cowering nations. Their cries of agony will feed it’s dark heart, and it will know rapture as it strips the light from the lands, one blighted soul at a time. In time, it will rest, as there will be none left to consume. It will slumber, lulled to a pregnant dormancy by the joyous cries of those who worship within its shadow.
Only the ashes of dreams, blood-stained streets, and the shuffling and nameless masses of the destitute will remain. It will be their Utopia, the proggs will be made proud as capitalism, and hope, is cast down in the name of their false god. Their dances of joy and victory will echo around the burning corpse of a once-great land, even as their children go quietly into the night, with only the tales and legends of what existed before to give them perspective. Their lotus-drunk parents will not hear their accusation, nor answer their questioning eyes, nor will they even notice their passing as pollution from their dark god poisons their last remaining moments.
Perhaps in time, men will come that again cherish values, morals, hard work, and individual responsibility. But that time is far away and tonight… tonight the great and nameless dread rules the from darkness, in the once called Land of The Free, and The Home of the Brave.
Keep your powder dry, my friends. Darkness is calling, it knows your name, and it hungers for you.
Comment by Big D on 11/8 @ 1:13 am #
Damn, Kresh. That’s…descriptive. I don’t think we’re quite there yet.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 1:17 am #
I shared that with our patterico friends.
Comment by Kresh on 11/8 @ 1:20 am #
I was going for creepy, actually. It’s late and I saw something tonight that will haunt me forever. I cannot say what it was, for fear of the repercussions to the legacy of a dead man, but this will have to suffice.
Comment by Republican on Acid on 11/8 @ 1:28 am #
Yes, this is all very creepy. One reality, and “conservatives” better get this, is that the lefty’s have been pretending “cool” now for about 45 years to get to this point. I hope this serves well to make every conservative know that some Libertarian points of contention are valid. Yes, no one wants this bill except for losers and teenagers, but that is part of the voting pool. The reality is that part needs to be “reprogrammed”.
Comment by Kresh on 11/8 @ 1:37 am #
It’s a fine line between Conservative and Libertarian. The line between Republican and Libertarian is more like a chasm.
Comment by redc1c4 on 11/8 @ 1:45 am #
hey Kresh! do not despair:
There is a story, a joke in some ways, an allegory in others, that dates way back. In it, a British Lord travels to the Frontier West, America in the 1800’s. His horse throws a shoe on the trail, so at the first little frontier town he comes to, he finds a blacksmith’s shop to have the shoe replaced. As he rides up, he sees a large, sweaty, filthy man hammering on a piece of red-hot iron. The Lord sits on his horse, waiting to be served, but the blacksmith doesn’t pay him any attention and continues to work his iron. Finally, the Lord, outraged to have been ignored this way by an obvious servant, dismounts, approaches the ’smith, and taps the man on the shoulder with his riding crop.
“You, man!” he barks, “Who is your Master! I wish to have a word with him!”
The blacksmith turns, looks at the Englishman, spits a stream of tobacco juice on the point of the Lord’s boot and says,
“That sumbitch ain’t been born”
and there’s more than a few of those folks still left. “Cthulhu” can go back to living on government cheese and press releases.
Trackback by DBKP - Death By 1000 Papercuts - DBKP on 11/8 @ 3:26 am #
Health Scare Passes, Poo Pen, TV Cat-fight: Morning Intell…
Health Scare passes, Real Housewives cat-fight, poo pen, a Pee Wee Herman gem, Ft. Hood red flags and rating the TV ghost hunters: Morning Intell Sunday November 8 2009.
……
Comment by Pablo on 11/8 @ 7:00 am #
That’s the little dickwad that is only a republican from New Orleans because he ran against William “Cold Cash” Jefferson and even New Orleans people still have some modicum of shame. Fuck him. Fuck them all, for that matter. Nothing would make me happier than to throw every goddamned one of them out.
Comment by Pablo on 11/8 @ 7:04 am #
Ah, it turns out he voted for it after it had already passed. Yes, New Orleans loves them some free shit. Fucking ratface bastard.
Comment by Salt Lick on 11/8 @ 7:19 am #
Cthulhu is risen
There is a Monster waits for me,
a brew of pain and misery.
But fiercer still in life and limb
is me, who lies in wait for him.
F*ck the Monster.
Comment by Freedoms Truth on 11/8 @ 8:40 am #
Yes, this is all very creepy. One reality, and “conservatives” better get this, is that the lefty’s have been pretending “cool” now for about 45 years to get to this point. I hope this serves well to make every conservative know that some Libertarian points of contention are valid. Yes, no one wants this bill except for losers and teenagers, but that is part of the voting pool. The reality is that part needs to be “reprogrammed”.
Cool sucks. Cool got us to this point, on the Highway to Hell … It’s time to declare war on ‘cool’ and all those who follow it.
Comment by Rusty on 11/8 @ 8:42 am #
Cool sucks. Cool got us to this point, on the Highway to Hell … It’s time to declare war on ‘cool’ and all those who follow it.
Outlaw!
Comment by Victor. on 11/8 @ 9:25 am #
When will you guys understand that the choplogic of slippery slopes is not a winning or relevant counter?
What’s the over-under on the total number of ass beatings the Republicans must take before they put forward a strategy that is both coherent and relevant?
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 9:27 am #
Victor they’re stupid.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 9:29 am #
We believe you just don’t play politics with life.
Comment by Kresh on 11/8 @ 9:29 am #
@redc1c4: Despair? Can one afford despair when the monster is already at the door? No. One merely girds his loins and prepares for battle. The beast is loose and all that is left is to fight. It’s sub-human servants are legion run wild within the corridors of power and they thirst to destroy that which they cannot conquer. There is a knocking at your door and their cries sound from the porch. Lock and load.
Your master may not have been born, but there are many who consider you their servant. They voted yesterday and, in their foolishness maliciousness, they know not the evil that they do.
I need some coffee. And a doughnut. LaMars hoooo!
Comment by Darleen on 11/8 @ 9:30 am #
yeah, Victor, the GOP healthcare plan, being only 200 pages rather than 2200 pages, just wasn’t coherent and relevant. Ditto any reminders that liberty doesn’t mean entitlement to your neighbor’s paycheck.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 9:31 am #
The plan was good but the strategy? The strategy was to take a noble stand about teh sanctity of the holy fetuses. Nice job, homopublicans.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 9:37 am #
They’ve redefined sanctimonious up I think.
Comment by Victor. on 11/8 @ 9:41 am #
Tepid reactions and fraudulent stunts expose these republican created hyperbolic monsters.
Speaking of monsters, someone needs to slay that Huckabee because he’s got the end of time written all over him.
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 9:45 am #
It seems to me as though Victor says both too much and too little. Too much insofar as he makes a claim to his own superior knowledge without having established any bona fides on that score at all and too little insofar as he waves his hands about choplogic(whatever that is?), slippery slopes, ass-beatings, coherence and relevance without identifying with regard to what or what question. You can assume he is talking about “health care plans” but there simply isn’t anything in his post to tie your assumption to. And now we have tepid reactions and hyperbolic monsters to add to the rhetorically clever but substantially empty list of phrases.
Jolly.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 9:46 am #
That’s about all Mr. Karl could adduce as any evidence of homopublican strategery.
This is the best way to defeat the bill at its next stage, one says.
Read that again. The dirty socialist are plotting a fascist and ruinously expensive takeover of health care replete with jail time for noncompliance what will set medical research back thirty years and the sanctimonious homopublicans think it’s the fetus thingies what are the best way to defeat the bill at its next stage. Who’s playing politics with Life Life Life, Mr. Pence? Useless piece of shit.
Our little country is not in good hands.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 9:49 am #
Victor.’s on Team Not Dirty Socialist for reals though. He’s good people.
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 9:51 am #
I didn’t assume he was on Team Dirty Socialists. Why would I? He hasn’t said and I don’t know him.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 9:54 am #
I just said cause I couldn’t tell where that was going really and I remember talking with him not long ago and he was very nice is all.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/8 @ 9:55 am #
I realize that there are a lot of people this morning that are upset about the Republicans votes on the Stupak amendment which lead to the ultimate narrow passage of the healthcare bill late last night; feeling that it was bereft of any strategic concerns.
But what about integrity? And I don’t say this as a God-botherer, but as a man of honor. Would there have been loads of schadenfreude to go around if all the Rethugs! voted “present” on the Stupak amendment and seemingly force the pro-life Dems to vote against Pelosi/Obama care? Yes, it might have…
But what makes you think that many of thise same Dems, having had the opportunity to go on the record as pro-life, and girded by the ability to talk about the hypocrisy of the pro-life Republicans as well as rail against such a transparent and cheap political ploy, wouldn’t have just gone along and voted for the bill anyway. No, under those circumstances they could have easily…
There is nothing, nothing! worth trading your honor and integrity for. It’s just not about being pro-life; it’s about walking the walk you talk, and not just when it’s convenient to do so. And, after criticizing Obama for voting “present” on issues, or being the “Presentdent”, to have done the same would have not only been hypocritical, but would have provided cover for future political cowards…
And, I don’t see how the Stupak amendment offends libertarian sensibilities; as I’ve seen alluded to upthread.
I realize that some folks will be upset by this comment; that is not my intent. But only to talk up honor and integrity, qualities that are frighteningly in short supply in America, and American politics, these days.
It’s not the end of the road for Obamacare. The bill in the House is completely incongruent with any of the Senate bills. This will probably die in conference, or be so altered as to not be able to pass either house afterward. Don’t lose hope, keep fighting, stay optimistic, America will win in the end…
All the best
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 9:59 am #
Oh, I’m not faulting you for speaking up for your experience hf. Not at all. In fact, I’m glad to hear it. I just have a habit of not assuming overmuch one way or another until I’ve got something to go on and rhetorical nicety isn’t something.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 10:01 am #
It’s not about Mr. Pence and crew’s honor and integrity it’s about protecting our little country from the vicious rape of dirty socialist third world health care and Mr. Pence failed failed failed and our little country lies naked quivering and bleeding and Mr. Pence feels rather pleased with himself, not being the sort of chap to play politics with Life and all.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 10:03 am #
it’s all good Mr. sdferr. I’m getting up cause I’ve made my point I think and I don’t want to just be obnoxious about it but I’m really floored… If you haven’t read this yet, Mr. Reed, it’s mostly why.
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 10:11 am #
Bob, yes the fight isn’t over and that was understood before passage. However, that knowledge isn’t enough to dismiss killing the damned thing in the cradle.
You say “transparent and cheap political ploy”, to which I say transparent YES! the more so the better, but cheap? hell no, it’s not cheap, it is sensible to the extent that the Bill is suicidal and must be stopped.
As to the complaint that Obama is always voting present, we can distinguish his eternal temporizing as finger-in-the-wind behavior, where because of the transparency of the “ploy” the Republicans could have undertaken, it would clearly have been understood as a tactical vote-gaming, not an uncertainty as to where the general national political desire stood, so no hypocrisy would have been involved except in the minds of the very easily fooled.
Honor for honor’s sake is all well and good but the end, the purpose of political action must always be kept firmly in the forefront and the end in this case far outweighs the triffling consistency on this issue.
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 10:16 am #
Triffling consistency being the vote to keep Fed Funds out of paying for abortions, I mean. Besides, the mere act of abstention doesn’t indicate the abstainer does so for the purpose of choosing to put Fed funds into abortion, thus reversing a previously strongly held position, but would be understood to be for the purpose of defeating the Stupak amnd’t and thus the final passage of Pelosi’s Bill.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 10:24 am #
There’s no reason to believe they have any principles. They didn’t want a pro-life primary challenge is all. Cowards plain as day.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 10:24 am #
totally getting up now
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 10:28 am #
happyfeet, this phrase “When this bill is conferenced with the Senate…” in the statement already assumes passage before the fact. The bastards had already given up, without doing everything possible to stop it. But they don’t even go to the trouble to make that case (as Big D attempted to do last night, say).
It seems to me obvious that they could have written that statement to explain why they intended to see the Stupak amnd’t down to defeat, could easily have explained their purpose and voting rationale for the sake of defeating final passage of Pelosi’s bill and asserted their continuing abortion beliefs and position so no uncertainty as to that would be possible. They could easily have explained that they saw that path as the best among their options and made the effort. Instead, they chose to assume what they did not know and with it, accept defeat for the time being.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/8 @ 10:29 am #
I can understand why you’re upset happyfeet. And I can see where you get the impression by that ham-handed statement that they were self-righteous moralists that were patting themselves on the back for maintaining moral purity or something like that…
And for my part, I wasn’t trying to be an apologist for them; at least I’m pretty sure-let’s just say that was my honest intent. And please don’t mistake my tone for being pedantic or condescending; it was neither. I respect your, and others, opinions on this; it drives strong emotions and is dangerous to our nation, both fiscally and in terms of personal freedom.
Comment by Salt Lick on 11/8 @ 10:34 am #
the purpose of political action must always be kept firmly in the forefront
Yes.
Mr. Danger is clearly sleeping, so I will stand in for him — “Rounds down range, people!”
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 10:40 am #
“Rounds down range, people!”
First, yay Danger.
There hasn’t been any misunderstanding in our disagreement though Salt Lick, at least I don’t think there is. And no one, most certainly not Bob, is arguing in bad faith. We all agree, I think, as to the ends we wish to achieve. Here we merely have a disagreement as to the tactics and procedures as to how to achieve those ends and, possibly, some slight, though important, disagreement as to the hierarchy of those ends.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 10:43 am #
I agree sdferr… they didn’t go down fighting, and it’s sad.
Thanks, Bob… and please know I am adamantly opposed to government funding of abortions even in cases of rape and incest but… I don’t think that makes me a good person and I’m not gonna send out a press release about it.
But the point is at some point, say this afternoon, there’s not gonna be anything for it but to look ahead and hope for the best.
I still think they put their re-election prospects ahead of our little country. They are cowards I think. But honestly, that ham-handed statement is probably still overly coloring my view of this. Literally jaw-dropping.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/8 @ 10:43 am #
sdferr,
I see your point, and I assure you I wasn’t advocating and “honor for honor’s sake” kind of suicidal stand.
I could see if the congressional Rethug leaders had made a point of stating, in advance, that as the entire caucus was committed to defeating the Pelosi health care bill as constructed, they would be abstaining as a caucus, and let the bill pass or fail based on the Democrats ability to agree on what should be included in the bill.
Still, even if they’d made such a statement, and abstained as a caucus, the Democrats and their media allies would have cast it as an obstructionist play. But since this will be the spin regardless of the manner in which the Democrats are opposed, I suppose that it’s a, “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”, situation.
I suppose the verbiage in the statement happyfeet linked, as well as my own, indicate a defacto surrender of sorts, by admitting ot will go to confence rpesupposes Senate passage. I can’t speak to the congressional Rethugs, but only myself. In my haste I left out the fur fight to come in the Senate over Obamacare; and there will be one for certain. I only was taking some hope from the fact that regardless of how long it takes, or what kind of bill, comes out of the Senate, it’s pretty clear it will be very different from the very liberal bill that was passed last night; and that would make the conference process difficult indeed.
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 10:49 am #
Yes, yes, yes. All of it, yes. Even if they had taken the path I’ve conjectured and had gone down to defeat they would have at least tried, and be seen to have tried, their utmost to stop this awful Bill. I may dismiss the media here, perhaps too easily, but I’ve long since come to the conclusion that people who pay attention, even the Republican’s political opposition, don’t trust the big media any farther than they can throw them.
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 10:53 am #
“Still, even if they’d made such a statement, and abstained as a caucus, the Democrats and their media allies would have cast it as an obstructionist play.”
That strikes precisely on the very point JeffG has always stressed, it seems to me. Don’t give them the opportunity, don’t concede them the right to misinterpret your intent, spell your intent out from the beginning and insist on a correct interpretation always. Don’t let them wrench your position from your hands and make of it what THEY will. It is not theirs to make.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/8 @ 11:05 am #
You’re probably right sdferr.
Perhaps I’m too cynical about Boehner’s or Pence’s charismatic appeal to cause folks to even cast a moment’s attention to what they say.
In an ideal world this could have indeed been a moment where they spoke past the media, directly to the folks, saying, “We have been allowed no participation in crafting this legislation, and will not now be party to facilitating it’s passage; since the Democrats possess the numerical advantage to shut us out, and pass whatever they choose regardless of public, or Republican, objection, we will abstain as a caucus, and allow them to finish crafting the Democratic bill among themselves; as they’ve chosen to do all along.
Not only would something like that have shown that Pelosi&Co own the bill, and emphasized the dictatorial hand with which Madame Pelosi runs her “Politburo”, but may have defused any obstructionist spin in the mind of the public, regardless of the way th emedia chose to spin it.
The only indpendants that would be swayed by the spin would be the “low information voters” who don’t pay attention anyway, but only parrott the talking points of their favorite broadcast personality.
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 11:17 am #
We see before our eyes today the same distorting grotesqueries going on with regard to Maj. Malik Hasan, do we not? Gen George Casey(!) tells Stephanopolos, “Let’s don’t speculate” when Stephanopolos cites statements of eyewitnesses to Hasan’s hatred of America as a gentle way of saying “Shut up! We don’t want that evidence on the public record yet because we haven’t figured out how to spin our failure.” The mornings meme has gone from “PTSD by proxy” to the simpler “He snapped. We can’t say he was an Islamic terrorist. But SNAPPED! CRAZY! Now that we can get behind, for what sane person fires a gun at 51 people in five minutes?”
Comment by Rose on 11/8 @ 1:38 pm #
Mike Thompson (D-CA) - North Coast Congressman Mike Thompson doesn’t think the House of Representatives health care bill is perfect, but he thinks it’s a historic step forward.
”I don’t think it’s close to perfect,” Thompson said Saturday afternoon, hours before he intended to vote for the bill. “This is like any other major piece of legislation — we’re going to be working on this forever. As long as there are people and there’s a need for health care, we’re going to be refining this legislation. It’s the nature of the beast. But, this bill brings us one step closer to quality, affordable health care for all Americans.”
Mike Thompson is a worthless cull, once a man who won votes from both sides of the aisle, now and in recent years he has shown himself to be a partisan tool. He was going to vote for this bill in the very beginning, before the Recess when they were trying to ram it through. Before anyone, including himself, had read it, before anyone knew what was in it. Before the Tea Parties, before the “nasty” Town Hall meetings, before the people started asking questions and before the people told him what they thought.
He would have voted for it no matter what was in it - and he has now done just that.
There is no reason for us to pay for Congressmen and Senators like him to fly to Washington and maintain an office there. We know how he will vote. He does not need to be present or to attend any meetings or read any legislation. It is all dictated for him. We can fill in the blank for his vote while he sits on a street corner begging for change.
Gone are the days when Congressmen were Statesmen.
There is an election coming. Register to vote if you haven’t. VOTE even if you have been slacking. Make this one count.
Comment by Freedoms Truth on 11/8 @ 1:57 pm #
Dittos on #184: “But what makes you think that many of thise same Dems, having had the opportunity to go on the record as pro-life, and girded by the ability to talk about the hypocrisy of the pro-life Republicans as well as rail against such a transparent and cheap political ploy, wouldn’t have just gone along and voted for the bill anyway. No, under those circumstances they could have easily…”
We have now established that underhanded Democrat attempts to undermine the 30-year-old Hyde Amendment restrictions on Federal funding of abortion *will* get slapped down. The tiny margin *even after* Stupak shows that Pelosi *cannot* make *any* of the grumblers defect. It’s an inherently unstable situation. They needed Stupak to get to 219 and now have hamstrung themselves.
The Repubs had zero control over the charade, so while it would have been better to vote ‘present’ and force the pro-abort Democrats to scramble, that would have been a temporary victory. (Even as short as 15 minutes once Pelosi decided to frog-march Dems on this.) This OTOH, was a clear House repudiation of taxpayer funded abortions. A permanent line-in-sand. Any Pelosi attempt to stuff it back in will result in a dead bill.
Result: Federal taxpayer funding for abortion is dead, dead, dead. And that’s a good thing.
The Associated Press reported, “Abortion rights advocates called the measure the biggest setback to women’s reproductive rights in decades.” (for “reproductive rights” read: “Abortion mill business”)
http://www.nationalreview.com/doctor/post/?q=Nzc5YmViYjJlNDk0NWQyNzRjZmE2ZmVkMzM0MmUzYWM=
Comment by happyfeet on 11/8 @ 2:05 pm #
We have now established that underhanded Democrat attempts to undermine the 30-year-old Hyde Amendment restrictions on Federal funding of abortion *will* get slapped down.
My heart is filled with joy to where accepting dirty socialist health care seems like a perfectly noble sacrifice not unlike that made by the brave soldiers at Fort Hood.
Comment by sdferr on 11/8 @ 2:21 pm #
Funny though that we don’t hear the horns of complaint being sounded at the cynicism of Stupak and his friends, who evidently were/are willing to go along with a Bill which they know the senior leaders and key committee chairmen among the Democrats will not promise will see the light of day with the Stupak amnd’t intact, once it passes through the next steps in the process. Stupak knows damned well he could be faced with the disappearance of his amnd’t but he didn’t bother to stand fast ’til he had firm guarantees his amnd’t would stick before going on to pass the underlying piece of shit.