Erick Erickson at Redstate discovers an interesting section in HR 3200
we should be very troubled by Section 1233 of H.R. 3200. The section, titled “Advanced Care Planning Consultation” requires senior citizens to meet at least every 5 years with a doctor or nurse practitioner to discuss dying with dignity.The section requires that they talk to their doctor, not a lawyer, about living wills, durable healthcare powers of attorney, hospice, etc. Given the progressive intelligentsia already being on the record in favor of euthanizing the elderly, it is no small leap to see where the Democrats are headed with this.
Erickson cites a few choice quotes, to which I would add the lessons we should learn from the Netherlands
Of the 130,000 Dutchmen who died in 1990, some 11,800 were killed or helped to die by their doctors, according to a 1991 report by the attorney general of the High Council of the Netherlands. (The 1991 report is the only complete report on euthanasia practices by the Dutch government.)Some of these deaths are the classic cases cited by right-to-die advocates: A terminally ill patient, in agony, demanding to “die with dignity.” But many are not. An estimated 5,981 people–an average of 16 per day–were killed by their doctors without their consent, according to the Dutch government report.
And these numbers do not measure several other groups that are put to death involuntarily: disabled infants, terminally ill children and mental patients. [...]
Many old people now fear Dutch hospitals. More than 10% of senior citizens who responded to a recent survey, which did not mention euthanasia, volunteered that they feared being killed by their doctors without their consent. One senior-citizen group printed up wallet cards that tell doctors that the cardholder opposes euthanasia. [...]
As the cost of socialized medicine in the Netherlands grew, doctors were lectured about the importance of keeping expenses down. In many hospitals, signs were posted indicating how much old-age treatments cost taxpayers. The result was a growing “social pressure” from doctors and others, says Arno Heltzel, a spokesman for the Catholic Union of the Elderly, the largest Dutch senior-citizen group, which favors voluntary euthanasia. “Old people have to excuse themselves for living. When they say that all of their friends are dead, people say, ‘Maybe it is time for you to go too,’ rather than, ‘You need to find new friends.’ “
This article is from 2001 and there is nothing to suggest that the Netherlands has done anything but increase their numbers while under-reporting them.
Add the Netherlands to the list of examples of what nationalized medicine will bring to Obama’s Transformed America.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 3:54 am #
Congressman Paul Ryan: Hey Senator Byrd, let’s take a bipartisan trip to The Netherlands to check out their euthanasia program.
Senator Byrd: No way dude.
Comment by Salt Lick on 7/21 @ 4:32 am #
It’s going to be interesting. Will it be as easy to convince people “death is an obligation” as it was to convince them “abortion is a right?”
Shrinking prosperity + pampered generation = Perfect Geriatric Storm?
Comment by Silver Whistle on 7/21 @ 4:38 am #
I wonder if Queen Nancy has had a chat with her doctor about her impending dirt nap? She isn’t looking too fresh.
Comment by Roland THTG on 7/21 @ 5:05 am #
Soylent Green is PEOPLE!!!!!
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 5:12 am #
Perhaps someone should talk to Ted. I mean, we know his chances of beating brain Cancer are slim. That treatment can’t be cheap …
Comment by Silver Whistle on 7/21 @ 5:21 am #
Carin, I think you’ll find that PolitburoCare is a much more expansive policy than ObamaCare, in fact there are no excluding preconditions whatsoever.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 5:31 am #
The barbarians are
at the gatehere.Comment by DavidL on 7/21 @ 5:40 am #
If death is an obligation, isn’t Senator Oldmobile obligated to go. Kennedy is the barely living example of what the Obamatards claim to want to eliminate. Then of course death with dignity does not apply to fat, alcholic senators who can’t drive.
Comment by Bob Reed on 7/21 @ 5:48 am #
And yet, regardless of examples like these and the Obamacare advocates openly talking about having to “reign in” medicare costs, which is a euphamism for rationed care, that the AARP and many seniors seem content to let Obama get on with the program…
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/07/kennedy_lets_ration_health_car.asp
I don’t know if they’re not paying attention or just nostalgic for the new deal or what. But it makes no sense that one of the largest blocks of folks that actually vote would go along with policy initiatives that are decidedly not in their interests…
But, you know the cliche…”There’s no fool like an old fool!”
Comment by geoffb on 7/21 @ 5:48 am #
Karl Marx is the CEO of your HMO. This is your doctor, smiling at your bedside, with his latest (money saving) equipment.
Comment by Bob Reed on 7/21 @ 5:50 am #
Oh and just think about how nicely this would dovetail with the need to reduce the number of folks collecting social security…
A brave new world indeed…
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 5:53 am #
I might go along with this if we can shoot old people out of super-sized cannon. Starting with Ted, Nancy, Hairy and Byrd. That might just be the show to knock American Idol off of its perch.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 5:55 am #
Imagine how the Somali pirates would scatter if you shot a screaming Charlie Rangel at them. Cheaper than Sidewinders.
Comment by Silver Whistle on 7/21 @ 5:56 am #
alp, you may need to increase the bore of your gun if Murtha is on that list.
Comment by RD on 7/21 @ 6:03 am #
Erick Erickson lost what was left of his credibility on the Appalachian Trail a few weeks back.
Anyway, I suppose we could all die waiting for the Republican version of comprehensive health care reform.
No doubt it’s brilliantly innovative and involves tax cuts, so why hold back? Certainly all those chirping crickets can find other jobs in the industry.
Comment by Roland THTG on 7/21 @ 6:03 am #
If you would just put granny down, you can save medical resources and reduce the carbon footprint of your family. Win-Win.
Comment by KingShamus on 7/21 @ 6:07 am #
It will be a very short time before voluntary euthanasia becomes ‘mandatory oldster kill’.
Congress just keeps burying the delicious goodies into their health care proposals. What’s next, therapeutic rapes?
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 6:07 am #
My health care coverage is just fine right now, RD. If yours isn’t, that is your problem.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 6:08 am #
Anyway, I suppose we could all die waiting
Go ahead RD. You first.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 6:12 am #
Because he repeated some political pr that turned out to be bullshit?
YOU are going to condemn him for that?
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 6:13 am #
And if Erickson is wrong, what does Section 1233 of H.R. 3200 really say?
Comment by geoffb on 7/21 @ 6:13 am #
Queen Nancy, Teddy K. and the like have no reason to worry in this system. Whether yo are treated and how you are treated are determined by…This system incorporates five principles: youngest-first, prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value. Instrumental value is a way of hiding Party usefulness. How much does “The Party” need you alive? There “ain’t no Sanity clause” but there is the Castro clause.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 6:14 am #
How am I going to die waiting? I pay for my insurance, I get covered. What’s the problem?
No doubt it’s brilliantly innovative and involves tax cuts, so why hold back?
Seeing as though the lawyers won the last election, my ideas regarding health care have no chance, Mr. RD. Notice how under Obamacare the lawyers make out even BETTER? I wonder why that is.
Certainly all those chirping crickets can find other jobs in the industry.
Huh?
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 6:21 am #
Old people would make great sandbags when the rivers crest. That’s where Murtha would get the most use Silver. You put their noses down stream to catch the flow. Bill Clinton, as a sandbag, could have single-nostriledly saved NOLA during that unfortunate incident of poor aim by God.
Comment by Salt Lick on 7/21 @ 6:30 am #
Imagine how the Somali pirates would scatter if you shot a screaming Charlie Rangel at them.
Would that be one of those “ass rockets?”
Comment by geoffb on 7/21 @ 6:30 am #
“Health care” and “Health care reform”, Weaselly, twisted language. Words that sound as though they are about “medical care and treatment” but are not.
Everything talked about, proposed, and acted on by the Left involves two and only two considerations. Power and money. There is a huge pie of both out there in the medical sector of the economy. This is about seizing it for the use of “The Party”.
Once they have it they will only grudgingly dole out they actual care. Think of it like the Teamsters Pension Fund when the mob ran the union. Lots of money flowed in but little flowed out to pensioners. It was a slush fund for the ones really in charge. The little worker guy, with no power, screw him.
Democrats ask, “Who sent you?” Better have the “Instrumentally” useful answer.
Comment by geoffb on 7/21 @ 6:32 am #
the actual not they.
Comment by meya on 7/21 @ 6:43 am #
Y’all joining the millions of freepers to put a stop to all of this?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2295624/posts
It’s going to be a hoot.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 6:51 am #
I see that RD/meya maintain their persistent fascism?
Why is it that the Leftists think that one must have a counter-proposal for all of their ass-backwards destructive un-Maerican discredited ideas?
Here is my counter proposal. Quit reaching into my pocket and fucking with the lives of myself and my family.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 6:53 am #
I’ve never been much of a joiner. That seems to be the biggest problem with Rugged Individualism, trying to keep from getting stampeded by one herd or another.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 7:00 am #
RD is a dishonest lying douchenozzle of the highest order. A disgusting piece of trash. It prolly fantasizes about being donkey punch by Michael Moore.
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 7:05 am #
Hope and Change v 1.0, Deval Patrick.
Together We Can drop 30,000 people from their health coverage altogether!
I can’t wait for that to go national.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 7:08 am #
but some of us have to work.
By all means, scoop those fries.
Economics. The problem is that premiums are artificially high due to the millions that are uninsured
What would be cool would be if there were a way to determine what portion of your income goes to insurance. That way, when Obama taxes all job creators in order to bring down insurance premiums, we could determine what percentage of the millions of newly unemployed’s income goes to health care coverage.
Example: Employed person pays 10% of income for insurance. Employed person loses job due to millionaire boss being taxed in order to pay for some nameless, faceless loser 20-year-old pot-smoker to be forced to have insurance. Formerly employed person now pays one zillion% of income for insurance.
Conclusion: Obama’s an idiot
Comment by Techie on 7/21 @ 7:10 am #
I usually fall back to the Human Instrumentality Project answer and tell them to “Google It”.
Comment by SBP on 7/21 @ 7:10 am #
Why is it that the Leftists think that one must have a counter-proposal
Here’s a counter-proposal: they could get a fucking job.
RD is a dishonest lying douchenozzle of the highest order.
Oh, definitely. And a cowardly one, too. I re-hammered him last night.
Did you make sure to check under your bed for EEEEEVUL REPUBLIKKKANS before you went to bed last night, “RD”? They’re everywhere, you know.
Snicker.
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 7:11 am #
You mean something like this one?
You know, something put forth by a politician who actually has hands on experience with health care policy and implementation. that being in contrast to Der Ein who is subcontracting that entire big heaping pile of monkey crap to congresscritters who don’t know anymore than he does. I’m particularly taken with the “throwing trillions up against the wall to see what sticks.”
But you go ahead and keep repeating the Axelrod talking point that “Hey! We have to do something! You guys have nothing!” while pushing through a program that will not only fail to reduce health costs and diminish care for the vast majority of Americans but will also help bloat the Federal Deficit to unsustainable levels and hand over management of health care billing to the very same geniuses who run The Veterans Admin. and Medicare. there’s a bright, shiny group of management savants right there!
Check above your head, meya/RD, the unicorns are farting answers as we speak. Breath deeply and be enlightened.
Comment by serr8d on 7/21 @ 7:11 am #
Notice how the RD one always leaves a period at the end of it’s posts? That’s habit, from long-term posting at places using Haloscan. Places like Bumskin Black’s Atriodiots Blog. Prolly he’s waiting for the next OPEN THREAD~! to start.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 7:14 am #
And JD, I’ve got to throw a flag on your last comment. Illegal use of ‘donkey punch’.
You see, you’ve got to be able to execute the ‘doggy style’ posture to properly administer the DP. No unless someone has invented a hands-free tire-jack-and-tweezers contraption without my knowledge, I’d have to say that Michael Moore is physically impaired and would be relegated to munging Boxer or Pelosi when that time comes.
*see Mung
Comment by SBP on 7/21 @ 7:18 am #
There is a huge pie of both out there in the medical sector of the economy. This is about seizing it for the use of “The Party”.
Exactumundo. Just like the banks and the car companies.
Comment by chasingwaterfalls on 7/21 @ 7:20 am #
This same sort of thinking is the sort of thing that came out during HillaryCare. Her proposed plan would have paid for amnio, abortion, even pre-natal care should a “defective” child be chosen by her parents to live. However, once the disabled child was born, health care coverage would stop. Talk about government coercion (from the “choice” crowd, no less).
My husband and son are skydivers and son is mountaineer and back-country snowboarder. We are all motorcyclists. I told them that when government is allowed to pull the strings of health care, they will dictate the level of risk you are allowed to take if you want to be covered should you get injured. There are many facets to the ways this bill will control the commoners.
I laugh out loud now when someone talks about the increased gap between the rich and poor under Republicans. Under dirty socialism only the millionaires (and our millionaire politicians) will be able to afford private health insurance, their disabled children, travel and high risk adventures. But their lives are so distant from ours – rarely are they investigated by today’s j-school grads – that no one will notice or care how they live. Our society already gives the Hollywood and Beltway culture a pass. They are entitled to their riches. They never expect to have to live like socialists.
Comment by SBP on 7/21 @ 7:20 am #
Here’s a counter-proposal: they could get a fucking job.
You know, “RD”, even Walmart has health benefits.
Assuming you can show up on time, stock shelves, and be polite to customers.
I realize that would harsh your mellow, not to mention putting a crimp in your 24 hour vigil to protect your picture window from bands of marauding Republicans, but hey, we all must make sacrifices in these difficult times.
Remember: Barack will require you to work!
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 7:23 am #
That might be the dumbest thing you have ever said. I guess gasoline prices are artificially high because of all the folks that ride bikes, huh?
Premiums are “artificially” high because of government mandated coverage requirements, inflated malpractice rates, and the monopoly on medical care the AMA has. How is ObamaCare going to address any of these problems?
Comment by SDN on 7/21 @ 7:24 am #
RD, Texas implemented a real simple reform a year or two ago: putting a 500k cap on pain and suffering awards. Malpractice insurance premiums declined so fast and attracted so many doctors to the state that there’s a three-month backlog at the state medical licensing board.
But of course it hurts Democrats like John Edwards, so that reform isn’t anywhere to be seen in O!s “plan”.
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 7:24 am #
So much for that idea.
Comment by SBP on 7/21 @ 7:26 am #
That might be the dumbest thing you have ever said.
We lose money on every patient, but we’ll make it up in volume!
Comment by Joe on 7/21 @ 7:46 am #
My aren’t they so nice at the senior center.
Comment by Bob Reed on 7/21 @ 7:49 am #
RD,
Read this and we’ll maybe have, you know, an actual discussion of Obamacare and it’s merits or lack thereof…
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25136.html
Or we could just go on with you parroting talking points, and us pointing and laughing at you like the village idiot you seem to aspire to be…
So spare us the pathetic attempts at insults, since you’re no where near as good as the recently banned insult-meister of all time, and actually tell us why Jindal is wrong about Obamacare…
In lieu of that? Don’t pollute the thread with your attempts at derailing it…
Comment by Merovign on 7/21 @ 8:02 am #
I still can’t get over the part where thousands of people were murdered by doctors in the Netherlands, and there’s a hospital left unburned.
How degraded do you have to be as a society to sit by and watch a slaughter of the innocent and just “feel anxious”?
Oh, wait, we only do that to the very young, must be okay then.
But seriously, if some self-righteous bureaucrat-doctor murdered one of my parents as part of some policy to reduce the surplus population, and my ability to seek redress was removed because it was government policy (or possibly even if it wasn’t), Pretty God-Damned Awful Things would follow.
“It can’t happen here” is dead, replaced by “it had better not happen here…”
Comment by Salt Lick on 7/21 @ 8:04 am #
The problem is that premiums are artificially high due to the millions that are uninsured.
No shit.
As an illegal, uninsured immigrant, Perez has had problems in the past — not only with his health, but with navigating the U.S. health care maze.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 8:05 am #
Alppuccino – That was breath-taking in its level of disgust. You are truly in a class by yourself. How in the hell do you find those?
Mung
Comment by Salt Lick on 7/21 @ 8:06 am #
One thing is clear: Undocumented immigrants are driving up the number of people without health insurance. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that 59% of the nation’s illegal immigrants are uninsured, compared with 25% of legal immigrants and 14% of U.S. citizens. Illegal immigrants represent about 15% of the nation’s 47 million uninsured people — and about 30% of the increase since 1980.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 8:17 am #
Seeing as though the lawyers won the last election
I’d love to go on and on about the right’s latent contempt for the rule of law in general, but some of us have to work.
Bahaa haa haa!
Oh, you’re a hoot.
Comment by chasingwaterfalls on 7/21 @ 8:17 am #
Neither the Dems or Repugs care about this issue, Salt Lick. Just one more area where the Republicans squandered their leadership. Meanwhile, I am convinced both sides despise us (I think I learned that from Noonan); but our backs our useful to their ability to “care.”
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 8:18 am #
How in the hell do you find those?
I live life. Unafraid and unapologetic.
And Bono goes in the toilet for me. Not an ounce of courage in that one.
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 8:20 am #
Due to a vascular problem, my left eye is messed up (lots of blurry spots) which makes getting an eyeglass prescription difficult. So, my wife recommended an ophthalmologist in town that she’d met who deals frequently with this kind of problem. So I made an appointment and showed up at the desk to discover that this doctor didn’t participate in my vision insurance program.
The gal behind the desk was visibly shaken when I said, “That’s OK, just bill me.” Like the concept of paying for services myself was from the Fifth Dimension or something.
Imagine that. I actually acquired access to healthcare WITHOUT having insurance. It’s almost as if.. access is a completely separate thing from coverage.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 8:21 am #
The problem is that premiums are artificially high due to the millions that are uninsured
Wrong.
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 8:26 am #
#44 SDN: It’s not so much that the reduced malpractice premiums let doctors get more pay; freeing up that expenditure allows the practice to charge patients less for the doctor’s services.
In other words, reduce the cost of health care.
But progg “thinking” would say this is merely making money on the backs of the poor (malpractice lawyers).
Comment by Joe on 7/21 @ 8:28 am #
alppuccino thanks for the vocabulary lesson!
Comment by MarkD on 7/21 @ 8:29 am #
So what if I don’t want to meet with the nice folks to talk about dying with dignity? I’m not going anywhere, until I’m ready to go. If I wanted people to tell me where to go, I’d have stayed in the Marine Corps.
My answer is simply that if this scheme is so bad that Congress opts out, so do I.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 8:31 am #
Alppuccino is my hero. Mungers.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 8:34 am #
RD/meya
to put this very simply for you … America does not have a healthcare problem, it has a healthcare insurance problem. The problems with healthcare insurance include several issues — the so-called 47 million uninsured (at least half of which choose not to get insurance), tort reform (doctors have appallingly high insurance costs and practice “defensive medicine”), state over-regulation of medical insurance and federal interference in medical insurance including the use of the tax code to manipulate the market.
These are thorny issues that can be resolved without first completely destroying the American healthcare system.
But that seems to be the Left’s answer to any problem — to completely destroy the institution that isn’t “perfect” in their eyes — be it healthcare, education or marriage.
“Why yes, Ms. Smith, those pimples on your breast seem to be a case of acne … we’re going to do a double mastectomy so you won’t ever have to worry about acne there ever again.”
Comment by Joe on 7/21 @ 8:34 am #
Don’t say thor’s name three times or he will come back.
Mung breath and all.
Comment by Joe on 7/21 @ 8:38 am #
Darleen: Bobby Jindal was on CNN this morning. Jindal was very good. CNN of course tried to carry Obama’s water on the issue, but Jindal blocked every jab they tried and landed a few good punches. He made all the points you just did and more.
Comment by Richard Aubrey on 7/21 @ 8:42 am #
“With dignity”=cheap
Comment by RD on 7/21 @ 8:43 am #
Somewhat OT: Why did Darleen change her last name from Glick to Click?
Is that just Jeff getting his puppets mixed up?
Comment by psycho... on 7/21 @ 8:51 am #
There’s a common bowtie-righty claim that conservatives’ better judgment is rooted in their having correctly assessed the fallen-ness or imperfectibility (or whatever) of humanity. I don’t think that’s so, but if that’s the way you (any you) look at things, adjust your assessment downward until you regard repressed exultation in organized mass murder as baseline-human behavior. Because it is.
For something from that time, yes.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 8:54 am #
RD/meya
My last name has always been “Click”. If you have some sort of problems with my ancestory, take it up with my cousin Charles.
What DO you smoke before breakfast? Or are you just trying out a little anti-Jew schtick?
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 8:57 am #
Somewhat OT:
RD’s code for “I just got skewered on my idiocy so look at this will you? Isn’t that weird? Let’s not talk about this topic anymore.”
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 8:59 am #
56.Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 8:20 am
Note how the Left pointedly ignores two areas of medicine that are rarely, if ever, covered by insurance, yet have kept innovating over the years and have seen such significant drops in overall price that more and more people take advantage even though they pay out of pocket …
Lasek
Plastic surgery
Comment by mcgruder on 7/21 @ 8:59 am #
I think Darleen summarized things nicely, healthcare insurance vs. a healthcare problem.
Thats about right. An MD I know summed it up this way, (I paraphrase): “I begin every year with about $375,000 in fixed costs-$250k in malpractice insurance and around $125k to pay several people to process healthcare forms and ensure compliance with government and private insurance regulations. Do you expect that this isnt going to affect the way I treat my patients?”
Comment by happyfeet on 7/21 @ 9:02 am #
Barack probably won’t suffocate your grandma with a pillow until he gets the estate tax back to where he can mug her corpse. He’s a thug but he’s a thug with a Plan.
Comment by Joe on 7/21 @ 9:03 am #
RD is thor’s partner in mung.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 9:04 am #
mug her corpse.
Sp.?
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 9:11 am #
A. Power of Attorney
B. Living Will
C. Hospice Care
CIGNA wants to kill Grammy.
Comment by SDN on 7/21 @ 9:18 am #
#75: What part of CIGNA voluntary vs Government required is unclear?
Comment by Joe on 7/21 @ 9:18 am #
Milton Friedman on Obamacare. Well actually Obama was only a kid when Friedman said this, but it is still totally relevant.
H/T: Professor Bainbridge
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 9:24 am #
BTW
c. begnaud = J. Bynum of Twin Lakes, WI
Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 7/21 @ 9:28 am #
Progressive/Communist OCD “coverage” fetish:”Rationed health care is a right! The more rationed, the better!” You know, “for the good of Humanity/your own good”. And, btw, “I’ll make all the rules.”
Actually, we ain’t going to have “Sustainability” until Progressives get their OCD, etc., correctly “treated”.
Comment by SDN on 7/21 @ 9:31 am #
Doesn’t matter what name he uses; industrial-strength moron shines through any disguise.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 9:33 am #
#76. Yeah, because if you are a private insurer you are merely volunteering that information to provide knowledge about options. If it comes comes from the govt., it means they want to kill you.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 9:35 am #
If it comes comes from the govt., it means they want to kill you.
“An estimated 5,981 people–an average of 16 per day–were killed by their doctors without their consent”
I think Messier Begnaud had a firm grasp of the facts.
Comment by RD on 7/21 @ 9:37 am #
Yeah, I guess that was the other Darleen Glick.
Go figure.
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 9:38 am #
Shorter RD:
LOOK!!! BUNNIES!!!!
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 9:44 am #
Yes. Informing people about living wills, power of attorney and hospice care equals euthanasia.
Palin/Bachmann!!! 2012 – 2014&1/2
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 9:45 am #
Hey RD! Care to explain why turning over management of the health care system in this country to the same savants who run The Veteran’s Administration and Medicare is a good idea?
But be careful! You lose two full points if you say either “We have to do something” or “None of your Republicans have offered any alternatives other than obstructions.”
Thank you!
Quick, the unicorn just farted!
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 9:51 am #
You seem to have confused stating what you do and/or don’t want done to you with being told what will be done to you. Also, I don’t see where Cigna offers euthanasia as an option. Do you?
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 9:52 am #
Click the fucking link, you moron.
LOOK! RUSH LIMBAUGH!!!!
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 9:53 am #
Shorter RD: I saw it on Free Republic. It must be right!
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 9:54 am #
Go easy Pablo. RD is stupid.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 9:56 am #
Lordy, RD/meya, what is going on with you? HERE is the post I wrote – I don’t have control over how I am quoted elsewhere.
Glick is a much more common name than Click and people getting confused about that has been something I’ve corrected my whole life … just like the spelling of my first name is a variation of the usual spelling.
But you knew all this already.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 9:56 am #
This morning when the talking heads were chattering about the government bureaucrat who will be paid to stand between me and my doctor and repeat the word “NO!” over and over, I wondered if HHS planned to hire the same guy who performs that same function for my insurance company now.
Or would they choose the lady at the doctor’s front desk, who won’t let me get care unless I pay for it?
Or will they hire that bunch of faceless tellers at the bank who refuse to put money in my bank account when I’ve spent what’s in there?
Alternately they could hire my company’s HR dept. who picked this tightwad insurance co in the first place.
Or my nephew’s company, which laid him off, effectively making all his health care choices “no” for him.
It’s really shocking how many people want me to get sick and die.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 9:57 am #
The problem is that premiums are artificially high due to the millions that are uninsured
The problem is that medicare/medicade underpays for the services performed, and the balance gets put onto those with private insurance.
And …what is going to happen when the government controls an even larger percentage of medical payouts? You see where this is going? You understand why this will kill private insurance?
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 9:57 am #
As you know, stupid is the new brilliant.
Comment by AlexinCT on 7/21 @ 9:58 am #
As someone with relatives living in Holland (Netherlands), and one of them being a doctor, I can assure you that it has gotten much worse than what this old article describes. There is a political party which serves the sole purpose of pushing to stop expensive healthcare for seniors over a certain age by law (i.e. legalizing the work some doctors have taken upon themselves to perform). Of course this is also the country where they have a party pushing to lower the age of consent to 7, or get rid of it entirely, and where sex with animals is legal too.
BTW. The Dutch government no longer provides complete health coverage like they used to in the day anymore. The system is now put together to pay for some basic and preventive care – with long waiting periods and a very user unfriendly scheduling system – and for catastrophic care. People that want any other kind of care not normally covered, need to buy their own private policy to get other care (done through the government of course). Oh yeah, their taxes did not go down even though the level of service did. And you better not have any emergencies on a weekend either. Nobody works weekends.
Personally I would like us not to head the way the Dutch have, so I can keep making fun of the relatives there. But seeing where Obama is taking us, they might be the ones laughing at us sooner than later.
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[...] Where we’re headed. Leave a [...]
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 9:59 am #
Or would they choose the lady at the doctor’s front desk, who won’t let me get care unless I pay for it?
sashal, do you get to walk out of the grocery store without paying for the food you picked out?
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 10:00 am #
Sashal, I’m sorry you have crappy health insurance. But, then why do you want everyone to have the same crap? Wouldn’t you prefer options?
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 10:00 am #
c. begnaud = J. Bynum of Twin Lakes, WI simply can’t comprehend the difference between an insurance company offering options for one’s potential selection and a government requiring not only the programs mentioned but limiting them to a predefined construct designed to save money.
Whoever you are: My mom passed this past February. She was 89 years old and suffered from multiple degenerative health issues and a severe vascular dementia that often left her in the throes of paranoid fits and hallucinations. In other words, the quality of her life was, for the most part, miserable. There were days of clarity surrounded by more of misery.
My dad, myself and my three siblings met over a year before her death to talk through the criteria for end of life decisions. We agreed to a package of DNR and, eventually, to no hospitalization for severe dementia or infections, choosing to treat them at the nursing home. We worked through the issues and We made the choices, in consultation with her physicians. No insurance company or government agency had word one to say about our decisions.
How would that have worked under the currently proposed plan? How would that have worked in The Netherlands? Devaluing both human life and family desires for the sake of saving a few shekels for the greater good is odious and immoral.
Feel free to respond with the usual snark and misdirection.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 10:02 am #
The French LOVE their system. An income tax that ranges up to 40% and a VAT of 19.6% … and still their system is threatening to go bankrupt.
Comment by Matt on 7/21 @ 10:04 am #
Out of all those responses, RD chooses to make a comment about Darleen’s name. I don’t get it.
Also, out of the 43 million uninsured, how many are illegals ? If we want to reform health care, lets stop paying for care for people in this country illegally.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:05 am #
Carin, Darleen
when it comes to a choice between you and that second home on the Coast, sure
but all those people without health insurance?
Well, if they were good, hard-working Americans, they’d have health insurance, wouldn’t they?
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 10:06 am #
sashal, again, espouses policy by anecdote. “Look, me and my nephew have trouble getting coverage for our health care! WE MUST TURN THE ENTIRE SYSTEM UPSIDE DOWN SO THAT WE WILL BE SERVED!!!”
Good grief, I am so sick and tired of this lame ass argument designed to perpetuate the bankrupting of my great country.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:08 am #
100. Carin
Actually they do, and they do not have the President and Parlament discussions at proposals at going all in for private insurances
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:09 am #
why do you want a status quo, BJ, which IS BANKRUPTING our great country
Comment by Spam Heap on 7/21 @ 10:09 am #
That’s a hell of a Dutch treat.
Comment by RD on 7/21 @ 10:10 am #
Ahh yes, the DMV argument. While we’re at it, lets just relegate all military operations to the private sector. Surely the free market can do a better job than all those “savants” with their fancy uniforms.
Think of all that money you wouldn’t have to pay to the thieving Federal Government.
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 10:12 am #
No. Some people just can’t be bothered to buy it. That doesn’t make them bad non-Americans. It just makes them uninsured, by choice.
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 10:13 am #
Why do you want more of the program that is bankrupting the country?
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 10:14 am #
sashal, et al: As has been demonstrated time and again, the 47 million figure used for the uninsured is bogus. by the time you weed out those who were uninsured for as little as a day between jobs, illegal immigrants, those who choose not to carry insurance and those whoa re eligible for medicare who do not sign up, the uninsured number falls to somewhere between 8- 10 million.
so should we spend, conservatively, 5.5 trillion to completely upset the entire apple cart for most everyone in this country to serve those people? Or, just maybe, there is a better, far less expensive way to do it.
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 10:15 am #
No, BJ is talking apples to apples. You’re talking imbecile to apples.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 10:15 am #
I didn’t have insurance when I was out of college. Went about 4 years like that. Didn’t think to demand it of society.
My sil didn’t have insurance, and has had her medical bills picked up by you and me for the last 14 years. Bills which have gone well beyond the millions.
I don’t even get a thank you card. You know why? BECAUSE WE OWE HER.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 7/21 @ 10:17 am #
Sashal may indeed be the biggest mendacious jackass of all the trolls who have shit on this blog within the last few years. Is it still claiming to be a conservative? I wonder.
What’s to get, Matt? RD is quite simply a moron. This place deserves so much better. Are there no intelligent or at least articulate, statists willing to take up the debate?
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 10:17 am #
While we’re at it, lets just relegate all military operations to the private sector.
RD/meya is such the Constitutional genius!
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 10:17 am #
Health care costs bankrupting the country is a myth perpetuated by those trying to cram single user health care down our throats.
It’s right up there with the 47 million uninsured myth. Progressives like myths, especially those that allow them to get their hands on more taxpayer lucre.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 10:18 am #
Sashal, I’m totally uninterested in being taxed 40% on top of a 20% VAT for health insurance. I’m. Just. Not.
Shit, they are going broke in France. Anyone know offhand what the unemployment numbers are over there?
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 10:18 am #
You probably saved a bunch of cash that way, too.
Comment by chasingwaterfalls on 7/21 @ 10:18 am #
My grandfather chose to have open heart surgery to clear a blocked artery at the age of 91. The alternative was sitting in his apartment waiting for “The Big One.” After surgery, the doctor said his heart was as strong as a 55 year old man. He lived for eight more healthy years until a broken hip did him in. That means he was around after surgery from when my son was 6 until he was 14; from when my daughter was 11 until she graduated from high school. In other words, their great-grandfather was a big part of their childhood. He was an old fashioned gentleman. He never failed to bring me candy and flowers when he came for Sunday dinners. He always got dressed up for our trips to the grocery store – which for him was a highly social event. I can’t tell you the wonderful legacy he left my children.
My point in writing this? Half of the extended family were furious that he had the surgery (“Why can’t they leave an old man alone?”) and refused to visit him during recovery and rarely after he returned home. But he decided that he had the right to decide for HIMSELF what treatment he needed and the doctors supported his decision. Like any other adult. The rest of the family be damned. I was proud of him.
Of course, we could have removed his air conditioner before we left on vacation. Viva la French!!!
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 10:19 am #
BJ, So sorry about your mom.
Please point to the specific language in HR3200 that would have taken that decision away from your family.
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 10:20 am #
RD: Pardon me for thinking that the consequences of poor health policy are a bit more important than whether or not the brakes need to be replaced in my car. So, are you satisfied with the management of the Vet. Admin. and Medicare? The next time you see your doctor ask him who is more difficult to deal with: Insurance Companies or Medicare?
Breath deep, RD, the unicorn just farted again.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 10:20 am #
why do you want a status quo, BJ, which IS BANKRUPTING our great country
Uh, that would be Obama’s $787 billion dollar [non] stimulus bill, not healthcare.
Comment by nawoods on 7/21 @ 10:20 am #
I’m with sashal and the others, let’s make policy by anecdote! But we’ll use my story instead. I just changed jobs. It was a no-brainer because the new job paid much better. I am without health insurance for three months, however. And I still don’t want Obamacare! Since I am in the ranks of the uninsured, don’t I have “Absolute Moral Authority” or something?
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 10:20 am #
BJ, Was your mom on Medicare?
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 10:21 am #
When I was younger, it wasn’t unusual at all for middle/working class folks to pay out of pocket for doctors visits. Since then pretty much every consumable or service in my life has improved in quality and price but health care. I get a better variety at the grocery store cheaper than back then. Better and cheaper cars, television, appliances and tools, shoes, clothes, telephone, cable…
All higher tech and relatively cheaper. But healthcare has become virtually unattainable.
Why is that, RD? What is the key thing that separates health care from all those other industries?
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 10:22 am #
Not to get OfT, but I think Bawney Fwank, Chris “Sweetheart Deal” Dodd, Fannie/Freddie, GWB’s TARP, and Porkulus did a whole lot more BANKRUPTING (I’ll keep the Scare Caps) than healthcare costs do.
Comment by Ric Locke on 7/21 @ 10:23 am #
sashal, as usual, manages to blunt or destroy his own point.
Yes, the person at the insurance company who tells you “no!” is going to be hired by HHS. After all, that individual already knows how the system works, at least in broad outline, needing only training in the specifics to do the work, and will now be unemployed. The alternative is to hire people who have no clue, which will no doubt happen as well.
The same is true of the other gatekeepers you mention. They’re going to be out of work, and already know at least part of the system. The difference is, at present if they turn too many people away the system stops making money and they lose their jobs. As Government bureaucrats, they’ll be there until the Sun blows up and destroys the Earth. As they are instrumental to the system, they’ll get the care they need regardless of whether or not the plebes do.
A bureaucrat by any other name has the same odor. It’s just easier for a Government bureaucrat to remain in place until the stench fills the building than for a private one.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 10:23 am #
Your boy Clinton liked that idea. Did you know that?
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 10:25 am #
c. begnaud = J. Bynum of Twin Lakes, WI can’t grasp the difference between a family working things out, voluntarily, among themselves, and individual seniors required by law to meet alone with a doctor or nurse-practioner at least every five years. Naw, no pressure there.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:26 am #
BJ, it is not all about uninsured only.
It is about pre-existing conditions, it is about the way private health insurance companies operate-less payments to you =better,
it is about people to be slaved to certain job and limited to adventure in the search for a better option by the thought of losing insurance,
it is about laying off and no health coverage as a result ,
it is about growing costs and premiums , it is about even the deductible , when 20% from hundreds of thousands of dollars can be catastrophically bankrupt to the family.
It is about this:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2006-07-26-travel-surgery-usat_x.htm
and this:
http://apps.who.int/whosis/data/Search.jsp
USA being # 37 in the world behind the countries with “socialized” medicine
it is about our nation being healthy and properous
and finally , it is about M.Thatcher the true conservative who was for a public plan as great thing for the country and nation…
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 10:28 am #
But healthcare has become virtually unattainable
B Moe
see Lasik/Lasek and Plastic Surgery
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 10:29 am #
I think sashal also suffers from the “access = care” fallacy.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 10:29 am #
However do Medicare and Medicaid recipients manage to receive any medical treatment at all, what with a govt. bureaucrat constantly pressuring them to end it all.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 10:30 am #
sashal
Nationalized medicine doesn’t work well for anyone but the Government.
Stop trying to cure acne by taking a blowtorch to your face.
Comment by Silver Whistle on 7/21 @ 10:30 am #
Shit, they are going broke in France. Anyone know offhand what the unemployment numbers are over there?
Carin, it was 8.2% in March, expect it at around 9% now.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:32 am #
#133
you’re smarter then this
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:33 am #
RD, what is this obcession with the last name, and what connection it has to the matter discussed?
Comment by happyfeet on 7/21 @ 10:33 am #
M’chelle sure has been a lot invisible lately during her baby daddy’s health care pimping. You’d think she’d be the expert hoochie cause of how expert she is about administrative cost controls like how you hold salaries down and such.
Comment by RIP Ford on 7/21 @ 10:34 am #
“No. Some people just can’t be bothered to buy it. That doesn’t make them bad non-Americans. It just makes them uninsured, by choice.”
That would be me. I don’t have any by choice. When I go to the Doctor or Dentist I pay cash or if it’s expensive do a payment plan. No issues and I pay my bills. Honestly, I find coverage covering doctor visits insane anyway. I’ll probably get some catastrophic insurance at some point, but right now I rather spend/save my money for other things. Funny thing choice.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 10:34 am #
RD
Look at the link I provided earlier. The Click family has been in Americas since 1697.
I’ve always posted under my own legal name. You? heh.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:35 am #
for Carin, about those stupid French:
http://www.cronaca.com/archives/000935.html
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 10:40 am #
#139 RIP Ford.
How dare you! Do you realize that by paying for stuff yourself you are deliberately hurting the feeeeeelings of those who can’t. Or won’t. Or don’t want to.
You may think you’re merely responsible and exercising liberty. But you’ve exposed yourself as heartless and mean-spirited.
/s
Comment by RD on 7/21 @ 10:40 am #
I’m beginning to see a pattern.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 10:42 am #
I’m beginning to see a pattern.
RD/meya has caught me out!
I AM TRIG’S REAL MOTHER!!!!!
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 10:43 am #
RD/meya is venturing into creepy territory. Bynum is just another sock-puppet asshat. Sashal is a fucking Bolshevik that whacks off to a picture of Stalin.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/21 @ 10:44 am #
Rangel said Obama had called the chairman’s meeting “to show that he’s in charge.”*
Rangel says you want this shit taco foo then foo you is gonna have to OWN this shit taco.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 10:45 am #
What a fucking idiot.
Comment by Silver Whistle on 7/21 @ 10:46 am #
I’m beginning to see a pattern.
I think that’s the shrooms kicking in, dude. Just go with it.
Comment by RD on 7/21 @ 10:49 am #
Ummm…
Comment by Abe Froman on 7/21 @ 10:49 am #
for Carin, about those stupid French:
These
stupid French?
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 10:50 am #
It’s so nice of RD to take time away from his “The Moon Landing Was Faked” meetings to regale us with the “G or C: Evidence of A Vast Conspiracy” theory.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 10:50 am #
Bynum/sockpuppet – Explain to us how govt will control costs. Explain how this will be paid for. Give examples of where govt has succeeded at this in this country. Explain why the govt is the proper place for these things to be done. Do all of that without lying, distorting, or being otherwise mendoucheous, and that is a starting point for a discussion. You cannot and will not.
RD/meya is a munger of epic proportions
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 10:51 am #
Nobody can spell my real last name right either. I guess I’m not who I think I am.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:52 am #
JD, get some original insults,
or just poison yourself like your ideological father did 64 years ago
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 10:55 am #
for Carin, about those stupid French:
http://www.cronaca.com/archives/000935.html
I dun’t get your point. First, I never called the French stupid. Thor has the same problem, confusing criticism of a government as a criticism of the people.
Second, I fail to understand how your link applies to the discussion here.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 10:57 am #
Nice, sashal. Wishing for people to kill themselves. How very Bolshevik of you.
Weren’t the French the ones that had 15,000+ die due to summer happening?
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 10:57 am #
#152. Because it must. Because if it doesn’t, the private health care system will fuck the United States of America ten times over what the govt. would do. That’s why.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:57 am #
government actions, Carin, french government action was beneficial in the linked case.
get it now?
Not only evil comes from the governments, Carin, not only evil
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 10:59 am #
156,
what, went over your head?
That’s what I thought
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 11:02 am #
That was a joke. Right, beignet? Like I said, you cannot and will not answer any of those questions honestly.
This whole private healthcare is bankrupting the country therefore we must spent trillions upon trillions of dollars to keep from going bankrupt is from the same school of thought that brought us VP Biden telling us that the government must spend much more to avoid bankruptcy, and from the same folks that thought deficits were evil under Bush, but deficits whole orders of magnitude larger under Teh One (in order to pay off the UAW, acorn, etal) are right and proper.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 11:03 am #
That’s not an answer, that is juvenile pablum.
Answer my 124 . Why is health care the only service that has gotten more expensive?
Comment by Abe Froman on 7/21 @ 11:03 am #
what, went over your head?
That’s what I thought
Your creepy little comment probably went over his head because Herr Hitler would be on your side of the argument. Like he would on so many issues.
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 11:03 am #
I think RD is on to something. Tug that thread, dude!
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 11:04 am #
Please point to the specific language in HR3200 that would have taken that decision away from your family.
Well, for one, being forced to have such a consultation every 5 years is a tad … intrusive, don’t you think?
I bolded for you some of those causes for concern. The wording is rather … fuzzy. I , for one, don’t want our government doing any of this shit. It’s not their business to help or aid or assist anyone with their end of life issues.
But, it is the fuzzy language in their bill. Slippery slope, you know.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 11:05 am #
Ask BJ how his family would have coped with the cost sans Medicare.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 11:06 am #
Sashal fuckin Godwined me. And wished for me to commit suicide. Unintentional irony is always the best. Good Allah, who served these mungers mendacity for breakfast today?
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 11:08 am #
#157
You really don’t understand free markets do you?
Please explain how fully-freemarket-completely-out-of-pocket Lasik/Lasek and Plastic Surgery has improved, gotten cheaper, and become more widespread without your god, Government, in control?
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 11:08 am #
government actions, Carin, french government action was beneficial in the linked case.
get it now?
Not only evil comes from the governments, Carin, not only evil
Sashal, their have been do-gooders in the US trying to get folks to do the right thing, healthwise, for how long? And, what good does it do?
And, then we have WIC, Sashal, which hands out fucking formula to poor women. You know why? Because American feminists don’t want women to be tied to their babies. No, hook ‘em all on formula.
Making the correct choices – healthwise – isn’t rocket science. I have absolutely no pity for people too stupid to eat right, feed their kids right, and get a bit of exercise.
None. Sorry. I don’t want a government program to encourage them to do what they should be fucking doing anyway.
Waste of money.
Comment by SDN on 7/21 @ 11:09 am #
Let’s see, one in 2007 and one in 2009…. I’d see a pattern too if I punched myself in both eyes.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 11:10 am #
Nothing in that text suggests euthanasia.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 11:10 am #
not everybody is perfect , abe, you FOX brain fucked ignorant retarded Jonah wannabe:
ttp://www.slate.com/id/2068612/
/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6914490.stm
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2007-08-16-heat-fatalities_N.htm
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/heatwave.htm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-193867/Heatwave-kills-1-000.html
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 11:10 am #
Good of you to admit you are a lying sack-of-shit sock puppet, Bynum. And you are a disgusting turdlet of a human to continue to bring up the death of someone’s relatives in a dishonest manner to try to make a political point. You are a pimple on the asscrack of humanity.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 11:10 am #
#152. Because it must. Because if it doesn’t, the private health care system will fuck the United States of America ten times over what the govt. would do. That’s why.
benaud is a teenager, right?
Comment by Joe on 7/21 @ 11:11 am #
Fairness is not about giving my money to lazy people.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 11:12 am #
Well, shit, benaud, since it didn’t come right out and say that we must be safe!
Man, it’s amazing how much trust liberals have for our government.
Honestly, I’m tearing up. The patriotism. It’s touching.
Comment by Joe on 7/21 @ 11:12 am #
Bynum likes to mung dead roadkill possums.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 11:13 am #
Joe, that depends on the perspective, now doesn’t it?
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 11:13 am #
I think I like our JG better, Pablo. Did you follow the links from that dudes Twitter to his blog?
Some fucked up shit up in there.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 11:14 am #
But what if they must?
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 11:15 am #
Bynum – Just because you are such a small person that you need the govt to make decisions for you does not mean that is a basis for a national policy.
Comment by MarkD on 7/21 @ 11:19 am #
This sounds exactly like the argument against affirmative action. It would never, never… This time it will be different, right. It’s just like those words in the Constitution, Congress shall make no law.
Yes, I distrust them. They’ve earned it.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 11:19 am #
#124. Generally, lasers cost more than exacto knives, but if you want a surgeon cutting into you the old fashioned way, be my guest.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 11:20 am #
Sashal likes to felch RD while getting donkey punched by Bynum, right before munging Stalin.
Comment by Abe Froman on 7/21 @ 11:21 am #
not everybody is perfect , abe, you FOX brain fucked ignorant retarded Jonah wannabe:
You have to be desperately invested in France’s healthcare system to cart out links like that. As to your juvenile insults, a good rule of thumb is that calling someone retarded and ignorant is more effective when your own writing doesn’t suggest that you’re both.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 11:22 am #
Remember when the liberals were all pissed because the Federal Government was going to abuse its power with the Patriot Act?
Ha haa haa … good times.
Comment by Pablo on 7/21 @ 11:22 am #
Yeah, it’s like history reset itself in January.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 11:26 am #
that’s O’K , abe.
you intellectual defeat acknowledged
Comment by Abe Froman on 7/21 @ 11:28 am #
that’s O’K , abe.
you intellectual defeat acknowledged
Sorry but I don’t understand community college English. Care to elaborate?
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 11:31 am #
Yet laser eye surgery is generally cheap enough to finance out of pocket.
How can that be?
Comment by Salt Lick on 7/21 @ 11:31 am #
Oh no! Deep-thinking, thoughtful moderate, and Obama swing-voter David Brooks braves Mark Shield’s scorn and throws Dems’ health care under the bus.
Every cliché Ann Coulter throws at the Democrats is gloriously fulfilled by the Democratic health care bills.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 11:35 am #
Microwaves, cell phones, computers, these were all science fiction fantasy begnaud, now they are disposables. A modern econobox sedan with power windows, ac, cruise control, abs, and 4 channel hi fi would have been the most expensive car imaginable in the 60s. Now they are commonplace, cheap as dirt.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/21 @ 11:35 am #
David Brookth is still an unbearable ponce.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 11:37 am #
192, HF
still, you should not have grabbed his thigh
Comment by LTC John on 7/21 @ 11:38 am #
Happyfeet is correct – why doesn’t the family health care expert (she did pull in over $300k a year in a vital job for the U of C health system, yes?) weigh in? I suspect the Ghost of HillaryCare visited her one night and scared her off of that track.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 11:39 am #
189Yet laser eye surgery is generally cheap enough to finance out of pocket.
How can that be?
124Since then pretty much every consumable or service in my life has improved in quality and price but health care. I get a better variety at the grocery store cheaper than back then. Better and cheaper cars, television, appliances and tools, shoes, clothes, telephone, cable…
All higher tech and relatively cheaper. But healthcare has become virtually unattainable.
How the fuck do you keep your head from exploding?
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 11:42 am #
Eye surgery is one of the exceptions in health care, begnaud. How come it is more affordable than anything else? How come dental and eye care in general are so much less expensive than other forms of health care? What is the difference here?
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 11:43 am #
That’s not covered by my insurance, I don’t have any choice.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 11:45 am #
I have absolutely no pity for people too stupid to eat right,
Dammit Carin, I read that just as I was seeing how many Oreos I can get in my mouth at one time.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 11:45 am #
c. begnaud = J. Bynum of Twin Lakes, WI
Are you ducking #167 or just too stupid to grasp the concept of Liberty?
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 11:48 am #
I suspect the Ghost of HillaryCare visited her one night and scared her off of that track.
Or she saw the new waist-size criteria for CERTAIN DEATH!! and she’s having her titanium super-girdle made in an undisclosed location.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 11:52 am #
Bynum is a dishonest, aggressively ignorant poofter.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 11:53 am #
Eye surgery is one of the exceptions in health care, begnaud. How come it is more affordable than anything else? How come dental and eye care in general…
OK two things!!!! Monty Python did it better.
Comment by Mikey NTH on 7/21 @ 11:57 am #
Comment by RD on 7/21 @ 10:40 am #
Patterico’s Pontifications » Another Misleading Attack on the …
For what common law felony murder really means, see this post by Darleen Glick at Protein Wisdom. Comment by nk — 12/6/2007 @ 9:07 am …
I’m beginning to see a pattern.
That other people can’t spell Darleen’s name correctly?
That you’ve lost your argument and are now desperately trying to throw attention elsewhere?
That you’re a paranoid conspiracy minded addle-pate?
All of the above?
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 11:57 am #
I have absolutely no pity for people too stupid to eat right,
Dammit Carin, I read that just as I was seeing how many Oreos I can get in my mouth at one time.
Alp, there is only one right way to eat oreos. Dissect ‘em and scrape off the white stuff and eat. Throw the cookie parts away.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 11:58 am #
I still haven’t tried frozen hohos…
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 11:59 am #
That was soooooooooo racist, carin.
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 11:59 am #
With certain exceptions better critical health care is not cheaper, it’s more expensive. bigger and better machines, better drugs robots, lasers etc. all cost money. some of these innovations work out to have longevity therefore their costs do go down (Lasik) being a prime example. Others do not. MRI’s are only a little less expensive now as they were when they were introduced.
The dilemma is that if the government becomes the de facto final call for cost containment, what will happen to the sorts of medical innovations like MRI’s and Lasik that get mass marketed in this country almost regardless of cost? We have to do something but a topple-over-the-system make sure everyone has the same care even if most people get worse care is not the answer.
Looking for an alternative? Well, then we are back to this.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 12:00 pm #
Mail me your cookie parts.
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 12:02 pm #
Carin, I sense an Oreo schism about to happen.
The ABSOLUTELY CORRECT way to eat Oreos is to unscrew them, take the two halves with the white stuff and stick them together to make a double-stuff, crumble the cookie halves into a glass of milk, dunk and drink.
All else is HERESY!!!
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 12:02 pm #
What the fuck kind of point are you trying to make, begnaud? Are you trying to argue that all health care really is affordable? Most of it is? Why the hell do we need to subsidize it then?
How fucking stupid are you?
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 12:03 pm #
Carin – hobo’s are best grilled medium rare, not frozen.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 12:03 pm #
#167 Average LASIK Costs. $2,314 for wavefront-guided LASIK using a laser-created flap.
That ain’t cheap.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 12:04 pm #
How fucking stupid are you?
A rhetorical question if I ever saw one.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 12:05 pm #
It should be free !!!!!!!!!!
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 12:05 pm #
Alp, send me your address.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 12:08 pm #
I give up. Somebody else want to swat this thing around awhile.
Comment by Frenchie Beignet on 7/21 @ 12:08 pm #
That c bernaud person-thingie sure is smart. It p3wnd you wingers.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/21 @ 12:09 pm #
$2,314 is about the same as getting giorgio armani rectangle glasses once a year what don’t at all make you look like Drew Carey for 6 years or so and after that it’s done paid for itself. That’s value.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 12:10 pm #
B Moe, I’ve moved on to Oreos.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 12:11 pm #
$2,314 is a couple thousand less than Michelle’s clutch purse.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 12:11 pm #
212.Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 12:03 pm
neither is a home theater system but I don’t see you arguing for Government control of the home electronics market because some people can afford more than others.
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 12:11 pm #
Shorter c. begnode
GIMME, GIMME, GIMME, GIMME!!!!!!!
Comment by DR on 7/21 @ 12:12 pm #
You are right, Frenchie. C bernaud and RD absolutely embarassed these neotheoconz. And sashal swung the intellectual hammer like Maxwell.
Comment by Abe Froman on 7/21 @ 12:16 pm #
Yeah, $2,314 is brutal to have your eyesight fixed by a doctor. My parents just spent four grand to have a dead tree cut down and removed from their yard by a couple of high school dropouts with a truck. Where’s the justice?
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 12:17 pm #
This time last year, sasha was the “absolute best” at what he does. Now he works for a cheapskate company with crappy benefits.
Maybe he was talking about whining.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 12:17 pm #
If home theater systems were implanted in our bodies I might want some regulation.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 12:18 pm #
Get an x-ray of your head.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 12:18 pm #
With The One reaching out to Leftist bloggers in order to ramp up the hysteria over this, JD’s First Rule of Trolls will again be confirmed.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 12:19 pm #
Why did it cost you 4g to have that dead tree cut down and removed? Have you asked yourself how the free market works?
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 12:20 pm #
212,
is that what they do in France, England , Germany, Sweden and all other western countries?
Governments control electronics market?
C’mon, you are better then this idiotic comparison/argument, Darleen
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 12:21 pm #
FAKE BOOBIES FOR EVERYONE FOR FREE !!! Except teh rich.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 12:21 pm #
If home theater systems were implanted in our bodies I might want some regulation.
Deflection… ObamaCare isn’t about quality, it is about controlling for price.
If you think it has anything to do with quality of care, you haven’t been paying attention.
what.a.suprise.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 12:22 pm #
benaud, it costs 4 g to have a tree cut down because that’s what they can get. That’s how the free market works. Do you have a problem with that price? should the government force tree-cutting folks to charge less? I mean, that’s OUTRAGEOUS, right?
And, what’s the deal with specialists doctors making such big money? Certainly they don’t need those hefty 6 figure salaries.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 12:23 pm #
229 is comedy gold
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 12:24 pm #
sashal
fire up that few grey cells between your ears
HOW IS IT that Lasik/Lasek and Plastic surgery, where people PAY OUT OF POCKET, has gone down in price, advanced in technique, and become accessed/chosen by more people?
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 12:25 pm #
What are you talking about, JD? After Obama gets done with health care, I want his ass working on affordable tree cutters.
I have a HUGE tree that needs to come down.
WHAT DO WE WANT? TREE CARE! WHEN DO WE WANT IT? NOW!
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 12:25 pm #
You would be rich dude, that head of yours would make an awesome sub-woofer cabinet.
Comment by Abe Froman on 7/21 @ 12:28 pm #
Why did it cost you 4g to have that dead tree cut down and removed? Have you asked yourself how the free market works?
It didn’t cost ME anything, moron. Can you read? And what the hell is your point? I wasn’t complaining about the cost of tree removal, just putting into perspective how idiotic your suggestion was that LASIK is expensive.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 12:29 pm #
affordable tree cutters.
America’s Funniest Home Videos would have to be a 2-hour show.
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 12:29 pm #
Screw tree care, Carin. We need NCAA Division I playoffs NOW!!! Get the Congress involved with that!
Oh wait, they already are. Meddling fuckers.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 12:30 pm #
carin, doctors should be one of the highest paid professionals, who is arguing against smart and hard working people making money as much as they can?
Nobody.
I posted it to BJ(#129) and i will post it to you, what in my opinion the health care reform is about:
This reform is not about uninsured only.
It is about pre-existing conditions,
it is about the way private health insurance companies operate-less payments to you =the better,
it is about people to be slaved to a certain job and be limited for other business adventure in the search for a better options in fear of losing insurance,
it is about to be laid off and no health coverage as a result ,
it is about growing costs and premiums ,
it is about even the deductible , when 20% from the hundreds of thousands of dollars can be catastrophically bankrupt to the family.
It is about this:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2006-07-26-travel-surgery-usat_x.htm
and this:
http://apps.who.int/whosis/data/Search.jsp
USA being # 37 in the world behind the countries with “socialized” medicine
it is about our nation being healthy and prosperous
and finally , it is about M.Thatcher the true conservative who was for a public plan as great thing for the country and nation…
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 12:31 pm #
Carin – That was good. Very good.
Bernard/Bynum is the same one that argued that it is well and good for people to work 6 months and more for the government.
BMoe – Too much echo in that one.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 12:32 pm #
It is mostly about cutting and pasting the same pidgen gibberish over and over and over and over and over…
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 12:32 pm #
who is arguing against smart and hard working people making money as much as they can?
good lord, who are you trying to fool here?
Comment by geoffb on 7/21 @ 12:34 pm #
Troll names keep blowing up and then reassembling into new forms. I blame ACORN. They set a bad example with their self-exploding voter names. Spatter all over the polling places.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 12:35 pm #
Sashal – That #37 stat is a dirty little lie being spread by dirty little liars such as yourself. It has been refuted more times than you have lied about it.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 12:35 pm #
235
Again, wrong comparison, Darleen.
Plastic surgery is normally a selective procedure and is the same commodity as electronics, which more and more people purchase…
Anybody knows if insurances cover plastic surgery for the fire victims or victims of accidents?
I would be interested to know..
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 12:36 pm #
246
refuted it then, FOX fucked retard
Comment by SDN on 7/21 @ 12:36 pm #
Why are all those electronics etc getting cheaper while healthcare is getting more expensive?
Hint: they can have assembly lines for electronics because solder melts at the same temperature, plastic can be cut smoothly by a cutter running at so many rpm, etc. Human body temp, OTOH, varies on a range of 96 to 99. It takes a person to determine when that becomes a fever, and what caused it.
When autodocs become commonplace, healthcare will be cheaper. When successful outcomes depend on human skill and judgment in combination with individual differences in biochemistry, like any labor intensive process it will be more expensive.
And nothing resembling an autodoc will come out of a government run system. History shows the inevitable effects. Even space flight produced less innovation the more bureaucracy accumulated.
Statists like sashal never see that.
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 12:37 pm #
USA being # 37 in the world behind the countries with “socialized” medicine
And the World Health Organization hates socialized medicine and they still picked the USA #37. I mean just by their name “WORLD Health Organization” you can tell they fight collectivism tooth and nail. And they still picked USA #37?
If the USA does not do something to impress the World Health Organization, this country will see an hypochondria epidemic not seen since the Great Manic Depression!!
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 12:39 pm #
Sashal – On a scal of zero to bernaud, how stoopid are you?
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 12:39 pm #
The World Bingo Organization is seriously looking into adding another N to BINGO. Will keep you posted.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 12:39 pm #
Glick or Click/ her writing is alright by me
thank you Darleen
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 12:40 pm #
244,
so who, Darleen?
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 12:41 pm #
251,
lol,
see , you can do it
something original…..
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 12:44 pm #
Anybody knows if insurances cover plastic surgery for the fire victims or victims of accidents?
Yes, but you do understand that since those surgeries are done a lot less often than elective, elective plastic surgery is where all the innovation takes place, where the surgeons hone their skills? That generates enough money that these doctors and nurses can volunteer their time doing reconstructive surgery in 3rd world countries making repairs that are routine here?
WHY does the government demand that private insurance cover doctor visits/checkups?
What do you think your auto insurance would cost if your state dictated to the auto insurance carriers they had to cover oil changes and tire rotations?
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 12:47 pm #
pelosi/eyes wide shut
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 12:51 pm #
256
and who is going to ban Doctors’ private practices and research labs, Darleen?
And certainly the research is on going in other Westers countries as well, btw in France, Germany , Australia etc… there are private insurances too, which more affluent people buy to supplement the existing governmental one.
But no fucking one is without insurance-no one, not even when they are between the jobs
Comment by alppuccino on 7/21 @ 12:56 pm #
World Grilling Organization rates hamburgers below brats. What’s up with that?
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 12:56 pm #
This reform is not about uninsured only. Than why do they keep lying about that? Inflating the number? Ask most folks, and they are apparently pleased with their insurance. Sorry, it’s been about the “uninsured” for a long time.
It is about pre-existing conditions,
You think I can get car insurance AFTER I crash my car? Because that would, like, save me a TON of money. KWIM?
Having just recently gone through changing policies at work (with a four month gap of no insurance) there was no “Pre-existing” issue involved. I have no conditions, but my husband does. But don’t take my word for it:
it is about the way private health insurance companies operate-less payments to you =the better,
it is about people to be slaved to a certain job and be limited for other business adventure in the search for a better options in fear of losing insurance,
I prefer people feel they should work versus quit, because they don’t have to worry about silly things like their own health.
it is about to be laid off and no health coverage as a result ,
it is about growing costs and premiums ,
it is about even the deductible , when 20% from the hundreds of thousands of dollars can be catastrophically bankrupt to the family. Deductibles are often dependent upon what plan you purchase.
It is about this:
This is, apparently about Tort refor
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2006-07-26-travel-surgery-usat_x.htm
and this:
http://apps.who.int/whosis/data/Search.jsp
USA being # 37 in the world behind the countries with “socialized” medicine
Yea, if I cared about how the UN ranks us …
*****
Look, I’m for reform. I’m not for handing it all over to the government. No way no how, end of line.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 12:58 pm #
I could have made that easier to read with my responses. Sorry.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 1:00 pm #
258
how is private insurance going to survive in ObAmerica when they cannot sign up new clients? When employers would rather pay $750/employee to the government than pay private insurance, how long before millions of employees are forced into a government plan and cannot purchase private insurance? How long will private practice last in ObAmerica where doctors will be required by law to be affiliated with a government-run hospital which will set their working conditions?
Again, if insurance PORTABILITY and coverage of pre-existing conditions are the problems you want to fix, why completely destroy the system? Why cure the acne on your face by using a blow torch?
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 1:02 pm #
This reform is not about uninsured only.
Than why do they keep lying about that? Inflating the number? Ask most folks, and they are apparently pleased with their insurance. Sorry, it’s been about the “uninsured” for a long time.
It is about pre-existing conditions,
You think I can get car insurance AFTER I crash my car? Because that would, like, save me a TON of money. KWIM?
Having just recently gone through changing policies at work (with a four month gap of no insurance) there was no “Pre-existing” issue involved. I have no conditions, but my husband does. But don’t take my word for it:
it is about the way private health insurance companies operate-less payments to you =the better,
it is about people to be slaved to a certain job and be limited for other business adventure in the search for a better options in fear of losing insurance,
I prefer people feel they should work versus quit, because they don’t have to worry about silly things like their own health.
it is about even the deductible , when 20% from the hundreds of thousands of dollars can be catastrophically bankrupt to the family
. Deductibles are often dependent upon what plan you purchase. Deductibles are designed as an incentive to stay healthy, and choose wisely.
USA being # 37 in the world behind the countries with “socialized” medicine
Yea, if I cared about how the UN ranks us …
Look, I’m for reform. I’m not for handing it all over to the government. No way no how, end of line.
Comment by Kresh on 7/21 @ 1:04 pm #
No, but it’s often cheaper (note the average part of your statement, ie, there’s cheaper and more expensive) and it’s stupid easy to get payment plans for LASIK. It’s still cheaper than it used to be.
Try again.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 1:05 pm #
Look, I’m for reform. I’m not for handing it all over to the government. No way no how, end of line.
Because it has always worked out handing it all over to private business.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 1:08 pm #
Darleen,
first of all nobody knows how the final bill will look like, there are a lots of straw man things you arguing there about.
Wait and see
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 1:12 pm #
Seriously, c.begnaud, 1905? The meat packing industry? What’s next, a lively tome on the rampant child labor in 1870’s Chicago? A passionate deconstruction of sharecropping in the 1890’s? A private screening of the movie “F.I.S.T.?”
Relevance is a difficult concept for you, isn’t it?
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 1:12 pm #
Well, begnaud got me. Beat me with a 100 y/o example.
Well, shit, full steam ahead. I mean. social security/medicare/medicades problems are surely just an anomaly, right?
You know what … I’ve got a GREAT idea. Why doesn’t ‘bama use his super-duper plan and apply it to medicare/medicade and Federal employees first. See how it works out. Honestly, we should throw in those stalwart dem supports in the unions too.
Put them all on Obamacare. See if everyone else is dying to join up in a few years.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 1:13 pm #
Thanks, carin, I understand.
The word government just scares the hell out of you….
Me too, but not as much as you….because I lived through the REAL GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING ALL, not the soft regulation( by far much less then even in Western Europe) proposed here .
carin, the unregulated Ayn Rand fantasies exist only in … libertarian dreams , just like communism haunts the minds of it’s brainwashed adherents.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 1:13 pm #
How about a lively discussion of homeless deaths?
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 1:15 pm #
hey, Bj.
i will be in bucks county on Aug 9,10
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 1:15 pm #
first of all nobody knows how the final bill will look like
because it is being rewritten everyday while Obama screams it has to be passed NOW NOW NOW DON’T READ IT JUST PASS IT!!!!1!
Straw? Where?
Wait and see
No, thank you. I’m not waiting while the thieves are rummaging around my house and only hoping they take the change on the table near the door rather than backing up the truck and emptying the house.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 1:16 pm #
if the scarecrow had a brain
and the tin man had a heart…
what will happen to dan rather?
courage!
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 1:17 pm #
Look, if you think govt. health care is evil, be true to yourself and push for the eradication of Medicare and Medicaid. Show some courage.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 1:17 pm #
How about a lively discussion of homeless deaths?
Sure … because you can thank the ACLU for those.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 1:18 pm #
Sashal, there was a time when the government STARTED taking control of everything. That was the time to put a stop to it. Once they have all the power, once Federalism is a sham, it’s simply too late. I’m not willing to wait until it’s too late.
I’m all for fixing things.
I think they should have catastrophic medical plans. People can pay for doc visits, and stitches and broken legs. Get cancer, though, and the catastrophic dealo kicks in.
People would have a lot more power over their own health.
With tort reform, perhaps doctors can stop giving the full work-up to someone with chest pains who OBVIOUSLY isn’t having a heart attack. I went through that.
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 1:18 pm #
sashal: email me at bjtexs at gmail dot com. Maybe we’ll have an adult beverage together and beat the snot out of each other over the health care bill.
Drinks first, though.
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 1:20 pm #
A great example is maternal care. Women are basically free to choose as much intervention ($$) they want, because maternity costs make it virtually free.
A woman might be less likely to simply schedule a convienent c-section if she had to pay for it.
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 1:22 pm #
Yeesh, the obtuse! It is strong in this one!
Many of us recognize that something needs to be done about the spiraling costs of health care. That whole nuancy part comes in when you go to the Bobby Jindal story and realize that there may be a subtler, more well considered and, oh by the way, CHEAPER, CHEAPER CHEAPER way to help fix the system.
Call a technician and have him check the fuse on your nuance meter. It’s not working.
Comment by RIP Ford on 7/21 @ 1:24 pm #
“first of all nobody knows how the final bill will look like…
Wait and see…”
So, basically, you’re the idiot that gets work done on something before getting an agreed upon price? Your mechanic and plumber must love you.
Comment by Abe Froman on 7/21 @ 1:25 pm #
Because it has always worked out handing it all over to private business.
How very high school textbook of you. Kind of a dopey analogue. Not the least of the reasons being that federal meat inspections were instituted at the request of the industry itself.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 1:26 pm #
The Bobby Jindal story? He cures through exorcism. No want.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 1:27 pm #
She might be less likely to have the child if she had to pay for it.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 1:28 pm #
The narrative is strong in this one.
Comment by sashal on 7/21 @ 1:31 pm #
BJ
Senator Wyden, as you may know, has his own version of health care reform, which is entitled the Healthy Americans Act (HAA). The HAA is, in some ways, a more radical restructuring of the health insurance system than any of the other plans currently being contemplated by the Congress. It would completely remove the benefits tax exemption, create a national health insurance exchange (which would be open to everyone including those who opted out of their employer-provided coverage), and set some rather explicit cost-containment targets. I’m on record as being a fan, as are a lot of health care policy wonks like Ezra Klein. The interesting thing about Wyden’s bill is that it has co-sponsors from all over the political spectrum: not just centrists but also fairly liberal Democrats like Jeff Merkley, Ted Kaufman and Daniel Inouye, and rather conservative Republicans like Idaho’s Mike Crapo and Utah’s Dick Bennett. If we plot the 100 senators from most liberal to most conservative (as determined from DW-NOMINATE scores), support for the HAA seems to be somewhat randomly distributed throughout the population:
It’s very rare to see something like this and a reflection of the fact that Wyden’s plan cannot easily be characterized as either liberal or conservative … it’s just different.
more here:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/07/on-health-care-bipartisanship-without.html
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 1:32 pm #
Entr’acte
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 1:33 pm #
No, begnode just hates brown peoples.
Comment by BJTexs on 7/21 @ 1:33 pm #
From the Jindal article, obtuse one:
Let’s see now: Headlong runaway stagecoach off of a five trillion dollar economic cliff with a bill no one is being allowed to read or a common sense approach put forth by someone who has actually worked on managing and implementing health care policy?
Obtuse one says: COWABUNGA!!!!
Comment by Carin on 7/21 @ 1:35 pm #
A woman might be less likely to simply schedule a convienent c-section if she had to pay for it.
She might be less likely to have the child if she had to pay for it.
Well, that’s a fear- if you mean women may opt to have an abortion. . But, the manner in which American women face labor … leads to a ton more intervention that is both expensive and not good for either mom or baby.
Epidurals lead to a ton of complications, yet it’s basically “free” with most plans. A $2000++++bill for it may cause some to reconsider and choose a healthier path.
There is no reason most women need such a medicalized birth. Most women can use a midwife, with a doc nearby to handle should anything go wrong. That wouldn’t be too different from the situation most women face today, since they labor in “birth rooms” anyway.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 1:40 pm #
A $2000++++bill for it may cause some to reconsider and choose a healthier path.
No, it has to hurt more… like the 4g for the dead tree.
Comment by DarthRove on 7/21 @ 1:41 pm #
Pain never killed anybody.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 1:43 pm #
Beignet/bernaud/Bynum is a drooling slobbering moron.
Comment by c. begnaud on 7/21 @ 1:48 pm #
http://www.rdmeyalicksthecockandballz.com/ Wipe your chin.
Comment by Silver Whistle on 7/21 @ 1:50 pm #
From the 48 to the 52
Cut my dead tree, bitches.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 1:56 pm #
grandpa/ i think i can fold..
grandma..she’s gonna be a bitch..
maybe she’ll get run over by a rheindeer.
christmas in july?
Comment by happyfeet on 7/21 @ 2:01 pm #
everyone hates Barack Obama’s risky health care scheme
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 2:03 pm #
Clean-up on aisle idiot …
Trackback by NebraskaPatriot on 7/21 @ 2:03 pm #
Older Americans Better Read The Diary of Anne Frank …
as details leak out, Obamacare just gets more interesting all the time . . . Some new details about Obamacare and the impact on older Americans can be found here at Protein Wisdom’s web site. The Diary of Anne Frank immediately came to mind as I guess…
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 2:07 pm #
B Moe
Back in the bad old days of Ronald Reagan, I gave birth to all my girls and our medical insurance had a co-pay — my totally natural deliveries – prenatal plus delivery in hospital, still cost us about $1500 per birth out-of-pocket. A little budget planning and it wasn’t that big a deal.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 2:09 pm #
Actually I meant she may decide not to get pregnant, although I realize that seems to be a lost art these days.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 2:11 pm #
Exactly, but I have heard plenty of new parents say if it hadn’t been for insurance they couldn’t have afforded the pregnancy and delivery.
If that is true, then they can’t afford the baby.
Comment by Darleen on 7/21 @ 2:16 pm #
B Moe
Maybe they are talking about the whole bill. Considering that all the “free care” that a hospital covers, it means cost shifting to private insurance. And one gets the full bill at the end of the stay (faint worthy), and then how much one’s insurance covers.
You know, if ObamaCare is passed, I predict a further errosion of places like City of Hope and the Shriners Children’s Hospitals — why give to charity when one is “entitled” to have your neighbors pay your bills via big Mommy Government?
Comment by Bob Reed on 7/21 @ 2:19 pm #
Speaking of Aisle idiot…
Over at Dan’s place, our former resident finan-shul jeeenyus has finally held forth on the true! nature of the financial meltdown in our country…
http://tiny.cc/OtWMw
I won’t mention the name, it’s he-who-won’t-be-mentioned, but you’ll recognize the schtick…
let’s just say that much like Prince, the name has changed, but not much else…
Oh well, Jeff G predicted it, and his call was on the mark…
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 2:35 pm #
a pound of bacon
makes my potato salad
a winner
sorry/ just wanted to say something..
bacon!
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 3:16 pm #
For some reason Dan’s site isn’t letting me cut and paste, but I particularly liked this part, Bob.
You say credit risk, he says minority, then accuses you of being a racist.
His only trick.
Comment by cynn on 7/21 @ 3:23 pm #
Much of what Jindal says makes sense. But the most important concerns are to reduce overhead costs and cut the bureaucracy.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 3:31 pm #
hurricane katrina
5-0…
and not neary a oil rig did leak..
whatya think?
drill [yawn)\baby drill
Comment by LTC John on 7/21 @ 3:32 pm #
We finally run the worst trool evah off, and now you guys are tracking him at another site and pasting its stuff here??
Down, limbs of Satan!!
Comment by LTC John on 7/21 @ 3:34 pm #
#306 – exactly right. Do you include the contingency fee bar, government red tape compliance and such (in IL it is the State not paying Medicaid for many many many months/years) as ‘overhead’? If so, you have it dead to rights.
Comment by geoffb on 7/21 @ 3:38 pm #
Nishi? In non-text mode.
Comment by geoffb on 7/21 @ 3:42 pm #
And(#286) throwing in a Vanity Fair Palin hit piece which is soooooooooo on topic.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 3:45 pm #
Sorry Sir, won’t happen again.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 3:49 pm #
lets burn down Palins church..
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 3:50 pm #
or make a bridge outta her
{monty python)
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 3:51 pm #
I had missed that one. Telling that they struck these first couple of lines:
“I just want to say hi to Alaska. I appreciate speaking directly to the people that I serve as Governor.”
One absolute trait among lefties is they just can’t comprehend that everything isn’t about them.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 3:55 pm #
hi!
I’m Sarah!
coming to fuck u up!
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 3:56 pm #
or dress u down..
Comment by Danger on 7/21 @ 4:06 pm #
Seriously, c.begnaud, 1905? The meat packing industry? What’s next, a lively tome on the rampant child labor in 1870’s Chicago? A passionate deconstruction of sharecropping in the 1890’s? A private screening of the movie “F.I.S.T.
Dude,
I did a book report on the Junlgle in high school. Even then I recognized it for what it was; a blatant piece of socialistic propaganda.
How about reading Governor Jindals article and let us know if you have anything worthwile to counter his thoughts, I mean besides religious stereotyping.
Comment by Danger on 7/21 @ 4:13 pm #
The Servers here are working at glacial speed tonight so I will have to check in tomorrow.
Keep the volleys coming Outlaws;)
G’night all
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 4:16 pm #
i had the audacity of doin my book report
schoolin
on green eggs and ham..
i got an A cuz i fucked the teacher
blizzyty boppity crop dustily
twisterterly
maam’
Comment by Kresh on 7/21 @ 4:20 pm #
Wait for the bill? WAIT? Piles of shit don’t get better the longer you let them sit! They may stop stinking after a while, but then they’re a new and worse form of shit.
Sheesh dude. You’re really something else.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 4:20 pm #
serious
her name was Head
or/ proper/ Miss Murray-Head..
North quincy high class of &78
thanks for pieter brueghell jr..
aww/ mammeries!
Comment by Bob Reed on 7/21 @ 4:28 pm #
Sorry Colonel,
I just thought some might like to see his long awaited economic manifesto…
I won’t sully this site again with such links; indeed I thought twice before doing so…
My apology
Comment by SDN on 7/21 @ 4:38 pm #
Oh, and as for the homeless, what percentage of them are there because they used to be and should be in mental hospitals? As I recall, it was an early example of Left concern that they all had to be released immediately. How’s that working out?
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 4:42 pm #
mental hospital shout out!
sew buttons?
so what…
Comment by SBP on 7/21 @ 4:42 pm #
What DO you smoke before breakfast?
It probably stayed up all night guarding its hovel from hordes of Republican zombies. The ones who are always trying to heave a copy of Free to Choose through its picture window and steal its precious bodily fluids.
So now it’s arguing that because someone else misspelled your name, you’re a sockpuppet?
Sounds like a Vitamin H deficiency to me.
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 4:44 pm #
I was surprised that begnaud/beignet/bynum brought up the homeless. That word is usually only spoken when a Republican is in the White House. If spoken during a Dem reign of terror, it is only in noting how there are no longer any homeless, or to blame the remaining on the prior Republican, or the one in the nearest proximity.
Comment by SBP on 7/21 @ 4:46 pm #
c. begnaud = J. Bynum of Twin Lakes, WI
Thanks, Darleen. ‘Hammered.
When they start switching names, there’s really no point in even bothering to read their bullshit any more.
Comment by SBP on 7/21 @ 4:59 pm #
Seriously, c.begnaud, 1905? The meat packing industry? What’s next, a lively tome on the rampant child labor in 1870’s Chicago?
I’ll bet it never brings up Ukraine, 1932-33, Cambodia, 1975-79, China, 1949-present, North Korea, 1948-present…
Comment by Rusty on 7/21 @ 5:16 pm #
#265
You think that’s bad, guess who writes the regulations for the FAA, .. yep, the airlines. It’s how the big guys keep the competition down.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 5:18 pm #
jane fonda kinda doesn’t want to alter
her glow…
she’s a cunt
Comment by JD on 7/21 @ 5:45 pm #
pd – LOLOLOLOL
Comment by SDN on 7/21 @ 5:52 pm #
And here’s an interesting factoid from the very WHO that ranks us 37th:
The World Health Organization ranked the United States No. 1 out of 191 countries for being responsive to patients’ needs, including providing timely treatments and a choice of doctors.
Not for long!!!!
Comment by SBP on 7/21 @ 6:03 pm #
Sorry if this has already been posted. Voters laughing in the faces of Obama’s “free health care” shills.
Comment by SBP on 7/21 @ 6:09 pm #
http://thinkprogress.org
Snicker.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 6:44 pm #
dans nederlands have big horsefeet
and they trample my idea of ballet…
it ain’t ballet iffn u ain’t on your toes,,
9 out of ten dying swans agree.
Comment by LTC John on 7/21 @ 8:10 pm #
I was advised that if going to the Netherlands (I still have relatives there, bah!) I should be sure to take my passport and my Life Passport…
http://www.rtmagazine.com/issues/articles/2006-03_06.asp
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/21 @ 8:34 pm #
double dutch was a jump rope thing
help a fat old boy out!
double dutch/ school me/us/
Comment by Bob Reed on 7/21 @ 8:58 pm #
Hey pd buttons
Did you say Double Dutch Bus
Your wish is my link
http://tiny.cc/DxOKM
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 10:08 pm #
That bastard! Using other people’s money to forward his own agenda? Who the fuck does he think he is?
Comment by Joe on 7/21 @ 10:38 pm #
Federal Tort Reform.
Catch me if you can. Oh no legs? Too bad.
Comment by B Moe on 7/21 @ 10:44 pm #
Should be able to just lynch the doctor, I think.
Comment by Doc on 7/22 @ 9:03 am #
Have I missed something here? HR3200 “National Insurance Act of 2007″ a)Doesn’t deal specifically with health insurance and b)Died un-enacted at the end of the 110th Congress in 2008.
Source: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-3200
Comment by Doc on 7/22 @ 10:30 am #
Here’s the actual bill:
http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
Comment by Doc on 7/22 @ 10:38 am #
Try page 432 on “Advanced Care Planning” – no mention of mandatory consultations with doctors only and in fact refers to means of reference to attorneys for EOL planning.
As Holmes told Watson, it’s unwise to theorize in advance of your data. Or in its absence.
Comment by B Moe on 7/22 @ 10:58 am #
Then what is this?
Comment by SDN on 7/22 @ 12:09 pm #
Ace takes more words to say what I said in #249, but the result is clearer.
Comment by SDN on 7/22 @ 12:10 pm #
Doc, according to a number of IRS document, paying income tax is voluntary; I don’t recommend holding them to that.
Comment by B Moe on 7/22 @ 12:21 pm #
But you and Ace are both referring to cutting edge technologies and procedures, SDN. Routine stuff are what’s killing health care. X rays and sutures and splints and shots are mature technologies, to use Ace’s words, and still cost ridiculous amounts.
Comment by B Moe on 7/22 @ 12:58 pm #
Doc seems to have run out of prescriptions.
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/22 @ 3:15 pm #
l got the rockin pnemonia
and strains of the boggie woggie
achoo
flu..
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/22 @ 4:41 pm #
boogie achoo woogie
u know..
Comment by pdbuttons on 7/22 @ 4:43 pm #
pneumonia cough spit
i got a spelling disease!
Comment by B Moe on 7/22 @ 5:45 pm #
I can dig it.
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