According to this, the CIA is tracking a lot of people in Britain who pose threats to the U.S., although they of course share intel with the British when a UK atrocity seems likely.
A British official said: “There is a great deal of CIA activity inside the UK. The CIA has been given a free rein to raise, handle and process from intelligence sources inside the UK.
“In many cases we do not know who their assets are. Several of the recently foiled terrorist plots inside the UK were uncovered by informants run by US source handlers. We’ve been able to interdict these plots.”
A former CIA officer who still carries out freelance work for the agency voiced the irritation of some American spies. “It’s certainly frustrating that Britain is an Islamist swamp,” he said. “You don’t want to have to spend time spying on your friends.”
If this is what our friends are turing into (remember France and the burning banlieues), then we’d better get former enemies like Iraq and Afghanistan into the win column on the double. One can only await Londonistan author Melanie Phillips‘ take on this, once she gets wind of it.
Comment by Ella on 1/5 @ 9:40 pm #
If it’s happening in London and Paris, with a history of fighting Muslims for a thousand years and roots in classical liberalism and freedom, what makes you think Iraq or Afghanistan will ever be a win?
Days like these, I begin to think a lot has been lost.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/5 @ 9:51 pm #
Ella, why don’t you just give up and put on a burqa, then?
Comment by Lt. York on 1/5 @ 11:22 pm #
Fight or submit, your choice, Ella…
Comment by XBradTC on 1/5 @ 11:57 pm #
See what uncontrolled immigration gets you? Now think about the problems we might have with a huge assimilated immigrant population coddled by a welfare state.
Comment by Bond, James Bond on 1/6 @ 12:22 am #
Hey, I got Monte Carlo covered. Those fucking pricks try to get queer with the craps table and they will have to answer to me, by God!
Comment by Bond, James Bond on 1/6 @ 12:23 am #
If it’s happening in London and Paris, with a history of fighting Muslims for a thousand years and roots in classical liberalism and freedom, what makes you think Iraq or Afghanistan will ever be a win?
Because if we can get you folks to quit being such pussies about it we have the ability to kill them all.
Google “Darwin”. It ain’t rocket surgery.
Comment by B Moe on 1/6 @ 12:25 am #
Darn those sox!
Comment by The Lost Dog on 1/6 @ 2:30 am #
Whoops!
If smart people don’t give a shit about Al Frankenstein stealing an election, what chance do we have?
And by the way, judging by my friends, nobody DOES give a shit…
The adults have lost.
Comment by Mossberg500 on 1/6 @ 2:31 am #
Ella, just think, you’ll never have to buy soap again.
Comment by comatus on 1/6 @ 2:34 am #
That agent was Leiter, Felix Leiter. He drove a Studillac.
Comment by Sean M. on 1/6 @ 4:42 am #
I noticed that this thread didn’t have close to 300 comments yet. The trolls must be sleeping.
Comment by Jack on 1/6 @ 5:38 am #
#8: They are not your friends.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 6:44 am #
So you have to agree with someone politically to be their friend Jack? Must cut down on your drinking buddies.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 6:47 am #
Shouldn’t all these terror suspects stop in their quest to kill Jews and infidels now that O! is president? I mean they only hated us because of Iraq, Abu Gharib, and the evil ChimpyBush regime right.
Comment by T.E. Lawence on 1/6 @ 6:54 am #
Oh my, if I had forseen this wretched outcome I would have fiven the “No Prisoners!” command more often!
This is the fruits of unrestrained immigration and the philosophy of multi-culturalism; where society must assimilate to the immigrant instead of vice versa.
Reminds me of that phrase, “The tail is wagging the dog”; at least how it was used before that horrid film corrupted it’s meaning.
Cheers
Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 8:06 am #
First of all you’re posting on PW, obviously, meaning using a line like “the adults have lost” is not a acceptable caliber of snark. From tremulous heights onto the arresting streets, that’s the preferred flight path of your water balloon. Whether it be a Celinian Magnum XX pumped full of mulled claret or a used Ziplock once filled with cheap Mexican street weed and later employed to hold a goldfish swimming in warm urine, for the mutual benefit of all at least perform a quality bomb toss, you weak teat of balloon tossers.
Secondly, by what measure is adulthood defined. Killing the world’s greatest economy? Yah, so get the fuck out of here with your flighty, frivolous Sean Hannity whimperings and don’t come back until you have something better than sandbox-worthy metaphors and subjugated ignorance.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 8:07 am #
Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 8:06 am #
Go take your meds and have a nice long nap, thor.
Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 8:11 am #
Go sodomize a combat boot, kiddie groper.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 8:15 am #
#Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 8:11 am #
Plagiarism, thor.
Have you ever had an original thought?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 8:16 am #
And the pedophile canard?
Weak. Unoriginal. Pitiful.
Go take your meds, thor.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 8:17 am #
Leon Panetta will make this all better. I hear the CIA’s stationery will be printed on a lovely 60-lb. felt-finish cream-colored paper. It has just a tish of tooth–not enough to bother you unless you’re extremely sensitive. A friend who always writes in Spencerian loves this, and he uses it with sharp, flexible dip nibs. Has just enough texture for a luxurious look and feel.
America’s standing in the world is rising!!!
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 8:18 am #
Leon fucking Panetta.
A selection as weak as thor’s insults.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 8:23 am #
I expect them to bring in Zombie Dean Rusk via Ouija board any day now.
What’s up with all the Clintonistas? Doesn’t Barky trust any of his Chicago buddies? Or is he simply afraid to expose them to public scrutiny?
Comment by Mikey NTH on 1/6 @ 8:24 am #
Totally OT, but too funny to pass up or place in an on-topic(but dead) thread: Shame Caves.
http://www.cassyfiano.com/2009/01/feminist-term-of-the-day-shame-caves
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 8:25 am #
SBP have we heard of anyone that O! is associated that isn’t too f@cked up to stand 5 minutes of public scrutiny?
Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 8:26 am #
As weak as the will of the Greek boys P’brain fantasizes of, but, paradoxically, as strong as the smell of a Greek youth’s deflowered aftermath.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 8:26 am #
But he himself is Teh Cleanest Presentdet EVAR!!!
I forget who it was on here who said that Obama was the only man in the world who is able to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 8:27 am #
shame cave?
Oh.
thor.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 8:27 am #
Did he even have anyone at his convention stand up and say “I know O! and he is a model American” who wasn’t married to him?
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 8:32 am #
Did he even have anyone at his convention stand up and say “I know O! and he is a model American†who wasn’t married to him?
There are those who think saying “he’s not George Bush” is the same thing.
I’m not one of them
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 8:35 am #
I also see that the Panetta appointment has managed to piss off Diane Feinstein.
Do those two have a history or something?
So far we’ve got:
1) Four-way (at least) battle between Obama, Blago, Cryptkeeper Reid and the Congressional Black Caucus over Burris.
2) Richardson resigning before even taking office.
3) Allegations that Hillary might also be involved in a pay-for-play scheme.
4) Brewing battle between Feinstein and Obama over Panetta.
Can the Democratic Party self-destruct any faster?
SÃÂ, se puede!
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 8:37 am #
“Can the Democratic Party self-destruct any faster?”
Just as long as they don’t drag the country down with them.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 8:39 am #
Has there been a more tone-deaf senate leader than hairy reed?
dumb question
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 8:40 am #
Al too bad 75% of people seemed to think the Republicans were still in charge of the Senate and House for the last 2 years.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 8:40 am #
If Barky is really going to be content with playing Presentdent and let the Clintons run everything, I’m not overly worried.
I know the country can survive four years of the Clintons.
Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 8:49 am #
In his last days will George W. name and christen a rest stop on a Idaho interstate after Larry Craig? The suspense is intense, all the more knowing P’brain is smacking his lips at the thought of such a active freeway stop and plop.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 8:49 am #
I’m still chucking over that “shame cave” link, btw.
I wonder if Cruex is also “sexist”? There’s nothing worse than having your “dirty stick” and “sin bag” all itchy.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 8:51 am #
#Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 8:49 am #
Sure, thor.
[pats him on the head]
Now be a good boy, go take your meds and take a nice long nap.
‘Mkay?
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 8:51 am #
In his last days will George W. name and christen a rest stop on a Idaho interstate after Larry Craig?
No, no he won’t. And, incidentally thor, George W loves you and forgives you.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 8:53 am #
That’s because the President is a Christian, thor.
Comment by Benedick on 1/6 @ 8:55 am #
Score Update:
I just scanned the thread, and I’ve tallied thor’s unsolicited contributions as follows: (1) urine-throwing; (2) sex with footwear; (3) pedophilia; (4) pedophilia again; (5) gay rest-stop sex.
I’ve heard of leading with your chin, but leading with your sexual hangups? Weird.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 1/6 @ 9:00 am #
He’s just running through his wish list.
Comment by BJTexs on 1/6 @ 9:05 am #
It appears that outgoing Senate Intelligence Chairman Jay Rockefeller is less than amused with the Panetta pick along with Feinstein. That makes two prominent Dems expressing concerns.
This pick makes no sense whatsoever. Why in the world would you choose someone with no intelligence or law enforcement experience to run the CIA during a time when intelligence operations are the centerpiece of the GWOT? Are we going to hearken back to the Clinton days when HUMINT was devalued in favor of satellites and and wiretaps? Up until now he’s managed to pick some good people in National Security with the jury still out on Homeland and State (I know, I’m a sexist.)
This pick is a complete head scratcher even if reflects a personal philosophy that management skills are more important than Intelligence skills.
Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 9:08 am #
“Chucking?” As in a double chocolate chuck and slurp? Oh my.
Dick Cheney and George W. will soon saunter into the night. I predict hot tears of repressed man-lunacy will flow and drip from sPies’ prominent semen-sticky chin. Bewildered r-wingered radicals will silently pass gas in honorary unison inside their churches and cathedrals in the few remaining red states.
The lunatics binge will soon be over. Hopefully some here will gather their few possessions and head underground into welcoming mud bunker hideaways. Take a book or two, eighth years is a long time even for mole people.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:10 am #
Eight years. I’m calling it my “Black Period”.
oops
Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 9:10 am #
Should I be worried that he’ll goose my ass in public?
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 9:10 am #
You actually have to wonder what Panetta himself must have been thinking when asked, maybe something like “Who, me? You’re talking to me about the heading the CIA? What for? Why would you do that? I’m not capable of heading the CIA, are you nuts?”
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:13 am #
Should I be worried that he’ll goose my ass in public?
No.
Comment by Richard Aubrey on 1/6 @ 9:15 am #
One conservative said that Panetta, an experienced political operative, is capable of the most important thing; keeping the CIA from sabotaging O, as it did with Bush.
Interesting view.
Comment by thor on 1/6 @ 9:15 am #
Good point.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:18 am #
Sabotaging O’s efforts to do nothing?
Comment by Rob Crawford on 1/6 @ 9:22 am #
Making sure the blame for failures falls squarely on someone else’s shoulders?
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 9:23 am #
Only left wing people seem to view national security as a partisan issue. I doubt you will see someone using partisan reasons to leak classified shit to the NYTimes if it hurts a Dem. Well even if they do it is not like they will print it.
Comment by BJTexs on 1/6 @ 9:24 am #
Richard: I disagree. Panetta has no standing within the intelligence community. Heck, he doesn’t have any standing with Democratic members of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Why would Obama believe that Panetta can keep the labyrinthine machinations of CIA lifers under wraps? Is he such an astonishing leader that he’ll grasp the snake just behind the head and whack its tail until it stops hissing at him and his president?
Better men than Panetta have been swallowed up by that Agency.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:25 am #
Sabotaging O’s plan to use his “Deadly Handshake of Death” against our enemies?
Comment by Lost My Cookies on 1/6 @ 9:26 am #
Wait a second, Larry Craig was looking for a blow job in Minnesota, so it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that no one in Idaho knows how to give one. Therefore I have no problem with naming a rest area after the man.
Who isn’t gay.
And let’s face it, the Minneapolis Airport is a very sexy place. It’d be hard for any normal guy not to get all worked up after a couple of hours at the Chili’s Too, but just imagine if you were from Idaho! I mean last time I was there I had to resort to beating off in a USAToday box just to keep myself from humping the leg of the first thing in tight, black polyester I saw on a Segway.
Segway…rawr…
Comment by BJTexs on 1/6 @ 9:26 am #
Al: The Paralyzing Caring Eyes and Head Tilt.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:27 am #
Panetta should stick to what he knows best: Bread and bagels and sandwiches in a comfortable WiFi friendly strip mall.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 9:28 am #
Oh, yeah, I love that place. Panetta Bread Company.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:28 am #
That head-tilt is dynamite!
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 9:30 am #
I’d think that the worst part about cruising for gay sex in Minneapolis would be the possibility that the guy in the next stall was Al Franken.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 9:30 am #
Panetta could be (but of course, isn’t) the most skillful political operative in the history of the world and wouldn’t be able to stop damaging leaks if the leakers have a will to it.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:31 am #
Have you tried their new ‘Sidwell Friends Chowder’? If you do, be sure and sprinkle on some extra pretension.
Comment by BJTexs on 1/6 @ 9:33 am #
Al: I prefer my chowder with oyster crackers and a big dollop of condescension.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:39 am #
Oh. That’s the “Inauguration Chowder”. Won’t be as many crackers, but you’ll have your condescension out the booty.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:40 am #
Where.in.theee.hell.is.happyfeet?
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 9:40 am #
I was wondering the same thing yesterday.
Comment by Sigmund Schadenfreude on 1/6 @ 9:43 am #
In just a little over two weeks Mr. Bush will leave office. Many on the left are breathlessly fantasizing about the period of sweetness and light which will immediately begin afterward, and musing about the supposed heartbreak come by the political right. But I have a few questions for those people:
1) What’s going to happen to the unifying cottage industry that is Bush Derangement Syndrome? I mean, we’re at the point where even the Washington Post is starting to delve more deeply into the roots of the financial meltdown. What will happen when they start reporting on the shameless behavior of Frank, Dodd, Waters, Raines, Greenspan, et al, and face the inconvenient truth that Bush and the Republicans tried several times to limit the government’s influence on the mortgage and, by extension, housing market?
2) What will happen when the answer to any uncomfortable occurance or issue can no longer be; “I blame Booooooooosh!”?
3) What will happen when, If confirmed, Eric Holder and Leon Panetta predictable devastate our intelligence gathering capability? Holder, by re-instituting the policy that Reno and he were the architects of, the one where the FBI, CIA, and DIA could not share information, and Panetta by his inexperience and incompetence? Many things can be said about the Bush administration, but keeping us safe from another 9/11 isn’t one of them! What will happen if we’re attacked again?
4) What will be the new meme on the war in Afghanistan? Will we still be bombing innocent women and children? Or, will the war somehow instantly be prosecuted with righteous justice? And, what will happen when the rest of NATO inevitably pulls out; will there be a hew and cry over our unilateralism?
We are all familiar with the fact that Bush owned the state of the nation from the day he took over, and that there was NOTHING! that could be blamed on Clinton’s policies; not the economic slump resulting from the dot-com bubble bursting nor the woeful state of our intelligence gathering oprations. Will the same be true for Obama? Somehow, I don’t think so.
And therin will lay the hypocrisy of the left, exposed for all who care to notice.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 9:45 am #
ToI on Pak response to Bombay info:
Indian patience is beginning to wear out on the issue. Gaza, on the one hand is portrayed as a “crisis” when in fact, it isn’t. If India and Pakistan come to blows there may be some reason to drag the crisis word out and use it with impunity.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:47 am #
And therin will lay the hypocrisy of the left, exposed for all who care to notice.
I number us at 300.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 9:48 am #
Yeah, given that both of them have nukes.
Has His Oneness said anything about attacking Pockeestawn lately, or did that also go under the bus?
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 9:49 am #
Happyfeet’s mom was diagnosed with a lung cancer and hf learned of this over the holidays. I’m betting he’s very busy seeing after his family for now.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 9:51 am #
Damn that is terrible.
Comment by alppuccino on 1/6 @ 9:55 am #
I did know that and I wish I could take back my question.
happyfeet, if you’re out there, I’m sending any kind of positive energy your Mom’s way, be it prayer, thought, meditation – any and all.
Comment by geoffb on 1/6 @ 10:02 am #
See this comment.
Comment by Jeffersonian on 1/6 @ 10:09 am #
Hey, I got Monte Carlo covered. Those fucking pricks try to get queer with the craps table and they will have to answer to me, by God!
This is obviously an impostor: Bond, James Bond plays baccarat (though he did have a roll of the dice in Goldfinger)
Comment by geoffb on 1/6 @ 10:12 am #
Does anyone know who, if he has named them yet, Obama is putting in at the #2 and #3 positions in the various departments and agencies where a Clinton holdover is to be #1?
In the Clinton Administration there were cases where the #1 would be a flak catcher and the #2 or #3 would be the de facto head of the department.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 10:17 am #
Here’s PeBHO’s Justice Dept. picks so far and it looks like Turtles Clinton Admin people all the way down.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 10:17 am #
TurtlesComment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 10:18 am #
Sorry, more coffee necessary before I get it right.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 10:39 am #
Panetta never approved torturing anybody.
I imagine under Obama anyone who did approve torture will have to seek a top-flight job in either the food service or housekeeping industries.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 10:46 am #
Yes I do seem to remember all those many cases in Guantanemo Bay where people were getting their hands and feet cut off, raped, beaten, and branded with fire irons. That happened alot. Quick parsnip pass the bag of rubber cement my buzz is wearing off.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 10:50 am #
You want fries with that?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 10:50 am #
The hypocrites crawl out from under the log:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/06/americas/liberals.php
Reactionary leftists trying to claim that they are “patriotic”.
What a stinking joke.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 10:55 am #
Hahah funny N. O’Brain, I am sure we will see huge lines outside of all the local recruiting offices in Berkley now that the wars are fought for all the good reasons and they are so patriotic. I look forward to serving with them all. Hahahahhahaha what a joke.
Comment by Log Cabin on 1/6 @ 11:02 am #
I have spoken with several democrat friends this last holiday season. I end up asking each if the war in Iraq will be ending on January 20th. None can tell me why it won’t. I have been getting a lot of blank stares, but no answers.
Is the killing that is wrong under Bush soon going to be right under Obama? Will the US action in Afganistan/Pakistan be righteous or oppressive? Will Code Pink and A.N.S.W.E.R. still be protesting the US, or will they switch over to protests against Isreal?
I seek clarification, yet find none.
Comment by Veg-o-matic on 1/6 @ 11:03 am #
Oh Snap, ’snip,
Sdferr pwn3d you with his righteous citation! Where were all these paragons of conscience then?
Ethics!, Trooof!, Transparency!, Character!, Hope!, Change!,
Richardson!, Burris!, Blagojevich!, Rezko!,
O!
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 11:06 am #
Log Cabin I personally believe the anti-war movement to be the biggest bunch of hypocritical whiney pussies on the face of the planet. They will disappear once O! is in office as anti-war protests are no longer the “cool” thing to do. They will probably focus on Rwanda or Israel, you know two places where our government will do nothing but act “concerned” and they can feel like they accomplished something by walking in the street all day carrying a sign. No way in hell they are going to continue protesting a guy they all voted for and carrying on with the “chickenhawk” bullshit.
I could be wrong though since that is just my personal opinion. I seriously doubt it though, can you imagine 200 shrieking pasty white college kids from Berkley holding up paper machette Obama dolls and setting them on fire?
Comment by Berkley Berserkers on 1/6 @ 11:08 am #
Evidently all of those ex-hippies, and hippy wannabees, and hippys without a clue, don’t understand the concept of unconditional love when it comes to our country! I believe thor should be admonishing them about “polishing their flag pins” right about now.
Take another bong hit you losers! If the’re not wasted, then the day is!
I better get some practice in.
I Blame Obama!, Dissent is the highest form of patriotism!, Question [Grrrrrrr!] Authority!
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 11:14 am #
Here take parsnip for example. He comes on here and bitches about Israel and their “aggression” against the Palestinians and their supposed random bombings of Palestine. Notice how you do not hear him bitch about the Iraq war anymore and our “random” bombings. Is he bitching about Afghan? No he saves his ire for the correct targets according to his ideology. Now that his guy won he will not criticise shit about any war we are in, that is only reserved for when his people are out of power. Hell Obama could order the Airforce to light up every asperin factory in Iraq and you probably wouldn’t hear shit from parsnip.
Comment by Berkley Berserkers on 1/6 @ 11:18 am #
Log Cabin,
In answer to your queries:
1) The war in Iraq will tirn into a peaceful rebuilding partnership.
2) All killing in the name of national security, which was MURDER! under Bush, will now become an understandable and necessary proportional response to those who would test the will of Obama to defend our nation. The One is not weak on defense!
3) ANY action in Afghanistan or Pawk-ee-stawn are Righteous!, Necessary!, and Justified!; we’ll no longer be bombing innocents, but simply underscoring the axiom in point 2.
4) You are prescient sir. Code Pinko, MoveOn,and A.N.S.W.E.R. will move on to villifying Israel, the traditional (but non0Muslim) religious community, and any EU states that don’t completely capitulat, societally, to their Muslim minorities; because of the multi-culturalism!
Times change, paradigms shift, new straw-people are constructed, and there are other political enemies to undermine and defeat; by whatever means necessary!
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 11:19 am #
“Hell Obama could order the Airforce to light up every asperin factory in Iraq and you probably wouldn’t hear shit from parsnip.”
It’ll happen to Pawk-ee-stan, not I-rack.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 11:21 am #
Comment by Berkley Berserkers on 1/6 @ 11:18 am #
I want the giant paper-mache puppet heads.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 11:25 am #
Is that you Bob Reed?
Comment by Berkley Berserkers on 1/6 @ 11:27 am #
Dude, I sooooooooo want the giant paper mache heads too! I wanna see them burned in effigy, as well as being hung; you know, so we can justify them accusing Obama dissent as being racially motivated!
Can’t do it on a windy day though; with those ears any paper mache head would take off!
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 11:30 am #
How long till we hear the calls for Obama’s kids to serve in Iraq? I mean he is sending other peoples children to die over there why not his own.
Comment by geoffb on 1/6 @ 11:41 am #
Then perhaps the #3 overall (Sec of State) will be de facto in charge and O! will be the new
Renoflak catcher.Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 11:46 am #
It’s amusing to think so geoffb, but I don’t think in the end it’ll work that way. We all (and particularly PeBHO himself) are in for a gradual though ultimately rude awakening, I think.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 11:46 am #
What’s the world coming to when participating in something as trivial as war crimes puts a crimp in your hero career?
Comment by Sam Hall on 1/6 @ 11:51 am #
Didn’t seem to harm Che’s image much.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 11:56 am #
I thought according to you parsnip that “war crimes” were committed in every single war? So if we follow your logic down its rabbit hole then on January 22nd Obama will be guilty of war crimes right?
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 11:59 am #
I wonder how much differently a couple of privates and NCO’s actions on a night shift in Abu Gharib would have been treated by braindead partisans like parsnip. That would have not reflected on O! at all I bet, nope no how no way. Those were all individual actions that would be a travesty and those people would have been brought to justice by the honorable actions of the DOD who had been investigating those crimes for months before they became public.
Comment by Benedick on 1/6 @ 12:02 pm #
parsnip, Panetta may not have approved of “torture,” but Pelosi, Graham, Rockefeller, and Harman did.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123120464870255997.html
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 12:06 pm #
The all agreed with it up until it became politically expediant. Much like the Iraq war and supposedly “warrentless” illegal wiretapping.
Comment by cranky-d on 1/6 @ 12:08 pm #
Obama (PBUH) will not be blamed for the war because he did not start it. The evil Chimperor did. Instead, Obama will be credited with the “win” which was brought about by his graceful and august presence. His calm, cool leadership will have saved the day despite the incredible number of mistakes made by the worst president ever, George Bush.
That’s the narrative I expect we’ll see. I would rather the anti-war types turn on him, but it won’t happen.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 12:12 pm #
Good luck trying that when he is on record as agains the strategy that made it possible. I have no doubt though that the media and the Obama campaign, sorry I repeat myself, will try to make that happen. The anti-war crowd will not turn on him they are just another Dem get out the vote effort. Kinda like the NAACP.
Comment by MAJ (P) John on 1/6 @ 12:20 pm #
cranky – that has already started to splutter forth in one form from Harry Reid…
Comment by SSG RaTsO - Proud to be ODD! on 1/6 @ 12:23 pm #
“Panetta never approved torturing anybody.”
So what? Neither has anyone else?
Comment by Rob Crawford on 1/6 @ 12:25 pm #
My impression of what Reid said — admittedly second-hand — was that Patraeus was just following Reid’s advice.
Comment by Ella on 1/6 @ 12:25 pm #
I dhould have checked the comments on this thread yeaterday, it appears.
I’m not burka-bound, peoeple, no worries. I am just pessimistic about our ability to “win hearts and mins” in Iraq and Afghanistan as long as Islam (and the hard-core type) is ingrained in their cultures. Especially in light of Islam gaining traction in societies that just a short time ago were flourishing and free.
That leads me to pessimistically brood about massive wars and millions of deaths, not dhimmitude.
Death before dishonor. Geez. Can’t you tell from my lurking that I’m one of you?
Comment by Ella on 1/6 @ 12:26 pm #
And I apologize for my crappy typing. I’ll edit myself in the future….
Comment by cranky-d on 1/6 @ 12:35 pm #
All sorts of statements made by Obama have gone down the memory hole. A few more won’t fill it up.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 12:37 pm #
Reid was for the surge before he was against it. Or against it before he was for it.
Or something.
At any rate, he was responsible for anything good. The bad stuff? BOOOOOOOOOOSH!
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 12:37 pm #
You know what you are right. The guy could slit a virgins throat on stage at the Apollo and people would excuse it.
Comment by Pablo on 1/6 @ 12:38 pm #
Ella, I think the people in Iraq and Afghanistan are more interested in getting on with their lives than the privileged Islamists in Britain determined to bite the hand that feeds. Your point is well taken.
Parsnip, why did Obama lie to us?
No contact. And no mention of that meeting in the full report of all contacts between the Messiah and Blago teams.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 12:39 pm #
OT: Burris has, in fact, been barred from entering the Senate.
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 12:40 pm #
Backing up to his comment on Panetta’s never approving torturing anybody, Parsnip has a point, even if he(?) is begging the question pretty severely.
When Obama’s base preemptively sank his first intended pick to be CIA director, because he worked at the CIA during the time the techniques they call torture were used, I wondered, Who will be acceptable to them, then? You could pretty much disqualify any choice from within the CIA using their logic. Then it occurred to me that the next DCI might be another senior military officer, like General Hayden.
Instead it’s to be a managerial type of unquestioned loyalty–with another admiral heading the DNI. Is there a case to be made that the CIA never accepted its status as subordinate to this new directorate, and that Obama is trying to force it to do so?
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 1:00 pm #
Did any of you folks watch the horrifying video of the aftermath of the 2005 explosion during a Ham-ass parade of weapons which had recently been posted on LiveLeak as though it was a video of the aftermath of an Israeli bombing of a marketplace (an utter lie of course)?
These Islamist people are bona fide morons, in addition to being generally murderous death lovers. They kill their own people in far greater numbers than they manage to kill their ostensible enemies. Wherever they have taken over the functions of government they have taken little time to alienate everyone under their power. Places like Iraq, Afghanistan and Western Pakistan (and Gaza, I do not doubt) know better than anyone else in the world just how awful Islamism is. Given even a modicum of help I think they will eventually opt to be rid of their tormentors. The fools in Britain and Europe who join or merely tolerate the Islamist camps amongst them haven’t yet tasted the fruits of full-on Sharia’s success.
The United States will have to be there to help them out from under when (if) that time ever comes. It’s what we do.
Comment by mcgruder on 1/6 @ 1:10 pm #
Parsnip,
Panetta has sen things that are…from below.
The Clinton presidency began the process of extraodinary rendition.
Do you know what our friends the Egyptians do (and did) to people with whom we share a joint concern about?
Im a huge Bush basher, but youre going to have to do much better than that.
I reckon Obama, like on much else, is going to prove deeply, deeply dissapointing to the leftroots as he is forced to confront the reality of the world as POTUS.
in other words, talk is cheap on the campaign trail and the pixels of his net legions are free. when he has to make decisions to guide the ship of state, its obvious that the editorials of the Nation or even TNR arent going to prove terribly illustrative to him
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/6 @ 1:51 pm #
And underlying all of that is “If all you have is a hammer…”
People forget, or don’t know, that the CIA was an earlier iteration: the Central Intelligence Agency, charged with collating and centralizing intelligence data from all sources and presenting it to the Executive. What had been the Office of Special Services became the Operations Directive, and the analysts, photo interpreters, and the like, mainly from Military (i.e., Army) Intelligence were folded in. Supposedly the CIA was superior to and responsible for supervising all the others; in other words, a bureaucracy.
SF fans may recall the short story A Study in Still Life by Eric Frank Russell, which recapitulates the process (and, very likely, was inspired by it) in humorous form. The whole process had for all practical purposes failed before the building at Langley was completed, with the Service intelligence arms (particularly the Navy’s Office of Naval Intelligence) establishing its independence early. The remaining ex-OSS “cowboys” managed to do reasonable work in the Fifties and up until the Sixties, but the Analysis branch of CIA, despite Tom Clancy and whole libraries of spy-story books, has been in general so ineffective as to require founding of the National Security Agency at Ft. Meade, and later the National Reconnaissance Office to exploit the satellite data, in order to get any useful data. Bureaucratic infighting based on the CIA’s ostensible mission — supervising the other intelligence agencies — and within NSA and NRO have created an incredibly cumbersome process that essentially recapitulates LBJ’s non-system during the Viet Nam war, in which everything has to wend its way to the very top of the Executive chain before it can be disseminated to the people in the field who need it. Valerie Plame and Joseph Wilson are not outliers. At the same time the military services created the Special Forces, which are, for all practical purposes, the OSS reborn, making the Operations Directorate redundant; necessary because the bureaucracy of analysts and theorists had infected the OD.
So the solution is… more bureaucracy, of course. Now we have an Office of National Intelligence and a Director thereof, superior to CIA, NSA, NRO, ONI, MI, AFI, etc. etc. ad nauseum — which is to say, the Central Intelligence Agency gets shuffled aside in favor of the organizations that can and do collect, analyze, and act on intelligence. We are now observing the leaks and hints from the result of that, with CIA, as a massive bureaucracy, responding as any bureaucracy would to an invasion of its turf. Twenty or thirty years from now we will probably see the establishment of an Executive Intelligence Office, charged with reining in the NIO. Plus ca change…
Regards,
Ric
Comment by geoffb on 1/6 @ 2:16 pm #
#115,
Thanks for the link. I like the seal at the top.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 2:25 pm #
Supposedly the CIA was superior to and responsible for supervising all the others; in other words, a bureaucracy.
Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy.
Comment by nikkolai on 1/6 @ 2:56 pm #
Funny how parsnip/alphie/actus cannot answer your question, Pablo. We have noticed your persistance in asking, and his in avoidance.
Comment by TheUnrepentantGeek on 1/6 @ 2:57 pm #
This is depressing. Utterly correct, completely obvious, and horribly depressing.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 3:09 pm #
David Sanger on PeBHO and the CIA, MTP, Sunday Jan. 4, 2009:
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 3:19 pm #
mcgruder, I’m sure Obama will disappoint people, but it looks like anyone who approved torture has had their career ended, unless they can get one of the dwindling number of jobs in the wingnut welfare network.
Comment by Pellegri on 1/6 @ 3:25 pm #
ACTUALLY, I believe I have seen an article about how the Martyr Mom of 200whatever was attempting to displace Feinstein as one of California’s senators because she wasn’t objecting enough to the war.
Code Pink may in fact turn on Obamaclese in pursuit of their overarching goal.
Comment by TheUnrepentantGeek on 1/6 @ 3:25 pm #
1. What do you consider torture?
2. Is torture ever an effective means of acquiring information?
3. On what basis is torture wrong? From what moral framework do you make this call? Is there some divine mandate against torture you’re following, or is it simply your own moral judgment?
4. If the latter, why should others be obligated to suffer because you, personally, feel that torture (however you define it) is always wrong?
I’d be terribly interested to see your answers to these questions. I’m honestly not quite sure what I think about the issue, but I find it instructive to find what people outside my usual circles think and why.
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/6 @ 3:34 pm #
Oh, good. I’d be happy to be rid of Pelosi, all the members of the Senate and House Intelligence committees, Bill & Hillary, and of course Al Gore.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Pellegri on 1/6 @ 3:35 pm #
Also, thor, seriously, wtf mate?
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 3:40 pm #
Geek,
Opinions don’t really matter, the Geneva Conventions clearly define torture as anything that causes pain and suffering.
We signed ‘em, they are law.
I don’t think it works and I think anyone who engages in it is really just carrying out kinky sexual fantasies, not trying to gather info.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 1/6 @ 3:44 pm #
Pellegri, you do realize that alphie is probably not only out of your usual circle (unless your circle is one of unusually stupid whiners), but he also doesn’t think. So there is no “why”, just reflexive hate and stupidity.
I second your comment Ric. Damned Torquemadas! The whole lot.
Comment by Benedick on 1/6 @ 3:45 pm #
parsnip thus evidences an utter lack of any grasp of the Geneva Conventions or the circumstances under which they apply.
Comment by B Moe on 1/6 @ 3:51 pm #
the Geneva Conventions clearly define torture as anything that causes pain and suffering.
Clearly.
Comment by kelly on 1/6 @ 3:52 pm #
I’m sure snippy will be happy to point out where/when Al Qaeada signed the GC. Right, tuber?
Knob.
Comment by Pellegri on 1/6 @ 3:55 pm #
@OI: I assume the same applies to thor, who I was talking to. XD But yes, I’m aware parsnip is either someone having a hell of a time on a sockpuppet for our amusement, or seriously busted.
I just can’t begin to understand why the hell thor seems to think he’s going to get anywhere by casting serious doubts on the idea he is not, in fact, some kind of sexual predator.
Comment by BJTexs on 1/6 @ 4:00 pm #
Monkeyboy: The Geneva Convention also calls those who fight but don’t wear identified uniforms from an identified army as illegal combatants and/or spies. They are, thus, eligible to be summarily execution.
Do you favor summary execution for illegal combatants? (That would be terrorists in case I’m moving too fast for you.)
Also, the end result of being illegal combatants is that you are not eligible for the protections of the Geneva Convention. You see an agreement is a framework of rules between signatories. Osama and the Jihadis (cool name for a band) haven’t signed doodly squat.
Of course, you are the one who referred to the military as “make work welfare” so your credibility just might be nil.
Comment by BJTexs on 1/6 @ 4:02 pm #
summarily executed
wither preview?
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 4:05 pm #
BJ and Norm Coleman proving the Republican distaste for legal weaseling was as phony as the rest of Republican beliefs.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 1/6 @ 4:05 pm #
Parsnip – care to answer Pablo’s question at #115?
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 1/6 @ 4:06 pm #
“might”? BJ? Might?
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 4:07 pm #
I’ll bet French citizens are damned glad to see PM Sarkozy in Damascus trying to do something, anything to secure a reprieve from sudden and random summary execution for their poor oppressed l’automobiles.
Comment by B Moe on 1/6 @ 4:10 pm #
I just can’t begin to understand why the hell thor seems to think he’s going to get anywhere by casting serious doubts on the idea he is not, in fact, some kind of sexual predator.
Hell he bragged about it some months back, how he and a roommate in Russia used and abused the domestic help.
Comment by TheUnrepentantGeek on 1/6 @ 4:11 pm #
For now, I’ll put aside questions about exactly what constitutes “pain and suffering” (Are we talking mental suffering of any kind? Are even simply interrogations off limits because they’re stressful?)
1. Why don’t you think torture works? Do you have a citation to back up your opinion?
2. Assuming it causes no lasting physical harm, is it morally justifiable to avoid torture if it saves lives?
3. Does the physical comfort of unlawful combatants trump the health and safety of civilians?
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 4:14 pm #
As I said in another thread geek, some people are willing to kill children to achieve their political goals, some people aren’t.
Same goes for torture.
And bombing schools.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 4:25 pm #
Pakistan’s a great example of this. President Bush last summer authorized a series of ground actions that included going after non-al-Qaeda members, and Barack Obama’s going to have to decide
Didn’t the Presentdent-elect threaten to BOMB Pockeestawn during the campaign, or has that gone completely down the memory hole?
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 4:30 pm #
PeBHO may be faced with this choice sooner than later. ToI “The advance of Talibanistan”:
Comment by TheUnrepentantGeek on 1/6 @ 4:38 pm #
Am I to take that to mean that you place killing children to achieve political goals on the same moral plane with making unlawful combatants uncomfortable in order to obtain information that will be used to save lives?
I understand the temptation to reduce this question to the morally simplistic idea that “torture is bad and we shouldn’t do it,” but surely anyone could see that it’s more complex than that. Engaging in simplistic thought on this issue could have serious implications; it’s entirely plausible that people who’ve done nothing wrong will die to flatter someone’s moral vanities. Is that right?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 4:40 pm #
#128:
“From what moral framework do you make this call?”
BDS.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 4:40 pm #
Am I to take that to mean that you place killing children to achieve political goals on the same moral plane with making unlawful combatants uncomfortable in order to obtain information that will be used to save lives?
That is correct, geek.
I don’t think it is any more complex than that.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 4:45 pm #
“Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 4:40 pm #
Am I to take that to mean that you place killing children to achieve political goals on the same moral plane with making unlawful combatants uncomfortable in order to obtain information that will be used to save lives?
That is correct, geek.
I don’t think it is any more complex than that.”
You’re a stunted creature, alfie, a regular fucking Gollum.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 4:48 pm #
Citoyens de France applaud* the good fortune of their fellows in Venezuela, whose Great Leader, Hugo Chavez has seen fit to pre-emptively spare the cars and buses of his nation the horrible fate of the unfortunate European cars and buses by expelling from his country the evil ambassador of the State of Israel.
*Cheers for Hugo echo up and down the streets of Lyons and the alleys of Toulouse. Bravo cher Hugo!
Comment by TheUnrepentantGeek on 1/6 @ 4:49 pm #
Thank you for the response. As I said – instructive.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 4:55 pm #
Army spokesmen at Ft Sill say they are hard at work replacing any and all references to “Counter-battery fire” in their outdated texts with “Bombing schools and children”. They expect the work will be completed before the week is out.
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/6 @ 4:56 pm #
Give up, Geek.
It has already been established that, in parsnip’s world, taking hostages is the ultimate trump card. Once your opponent has a hostage, preferably a child, and/or is situated in a safe haven, there is nothing you can do but capitulate to whatever demands the hostage-taker may make, including whatever further acts of torture and/or murder may be in his plans. If the hostage is a child, and you so much as elbow the child aside, you are a violent criminal, and there is nothing to choose between you and the kidnapper.
Understand, this is a moralist absolute. The kidnapper is already a Bad Guy; having taken the hostage, he is then free to commit whatever outrage he cares to, because there are no additional moral consequences involved. Bad Guy = Bad Guy, and further depredations don’t change that. A (putative) rescuer who uses violence to separate the child from the kidnapper is, by definition, violent, and therefore a Bad Guy, at which point there is no distinguishing “rescuer” from “criminal”.
A hypothetical will make it clear.
There is an individual who possesses an atomic bomb, and has placed it in Times Square during rush hour. He is holding a hostage in front of him while he works through the detonation sequence, such that he is protected from sniper fire, etc. by the hostage’s body. If you let him continue, you are a Good Guy, although dead (along with most of the rest of New York City). If you shoot the hostage, then shoot the bomber, you are a violent criminal deserving of the absolute maximum sanction permitted by law.
Clear?
Regards,
Ric
[I didn't say it made sense]
Comment by SSG RaTsO - Proud to be ODD! on 1/6 @ 5:00 pm #
“the Geneva Conventions clearly define torture as anything that causes pain and suffering”
Really?
Because you’ll have to show me that.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 5:01 pm #
Eight years of U.S. and Israeli troops killing civilians to deny the bad guys a safe haven and they’re still hiding behind civilians, Ric.
Now it just looks like killing civilians is a standard goal of the U.S. and Israeli militaries.
It is pretty easy and cheap and the body count is impressive.
Plus, they don’t shoot back, which is nice.
They won.
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/6 @ 5:03 pm #
—I should add, in my hypothetical, any measures you take to minimize harm to the hostage are irrelevant. Taking utmost care, to the point of danger to yourself likely to make the attempt unsuccessful, to get the hostage moved aside without permanent or life-threatening damage gains you no points whatever. You were violent to the hostage, and are therefore an evil, depraved, violent criminal. Right, monky?
Regards,
Ric
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 5:06 pm #
That’s not me, that’s an impostor. Even I’m not such a moral cripple as to actually believe the crap he’s spouting.
Comment by geoffb on 1/6 @ 5:07 pm #
And if they handle them the same way they will be disasters too. Either go all in or fold, half-assed is not the way to support guys in the field with their lives on the line.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 1/6 @ 5:11 pm #
Now it just looks like killing civilians is a standard goal of the U.S. and Israeli militaries.
You are a despicable little rat, Parsnip.
A low life, a bucket of vomit.
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/6 @ 5:11 pm #
Unh huh. It’s exactly what you’ve been saying ever since I’ve encountered you, under whatever pseudonym.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by JHoward on 1/6 @ 5:12 pm #
“Even I’m
not sucha moral cripple”. Close enough.Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 5:24 pm #
Hello fakey :)
Does any of this really matter?
It’s obvious Obama finds what the wingnuts did morally repugnant and is hiring accordingly.
I do think it’s a mistake for you guys to try to defend it on a “moral” basis.
You lose right out of the gate.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 5:26 pm #
“Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 5:01 pm #
Eight years of U.S. and Israeli troops killing civilians to deny the bad guys a safe haven and they’re still hiding behind civilians, Ric.
Now it just looks like killing civilians is a standard goal of the U.S. and Israeli militaries.”
You have a stunted soul, Gollum.
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 5:27 pm #
That’s odd, I’d have thought that in snar-pip’s precincts actually being a moral cripple would be seen as a huge Win!, what with the elevation of a variety of victims to the status of Heroes of the Revolution and any sort of cripple ought to be right up there all victimy, no? Backflips, mate! You winner you!
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 5:28 pm #
“Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 5:24 pm #
Hello fakey :)
Does any of this really matter?
It’s obvious Obama finds what the wingnuts did morally repugnant and is hiring accordingly.
I do think it’s a mistake for you guys to try to defend it on a “moral†basis. ”
I’m wrong.
You have no soul at all, Gollum.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 5:33 pm #
No Brain,
Bombing one U.N. school may be an accident. Bombing two in an hour looks like a habit.
No matter what mental gymnastics the IDF and their supporters perform, they still just bombed two schools full of innocent children and killed dozens of them.
Very “gollum”-like indeed.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 5:39 pm #
“Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 5:33 pm #
No Brain,
Bombing one U.N. school may be an accident. Bombing two in an hour looks like a habit.”
Or it looks like a terrorist rocket factory hiding in a UN school, with children used as human shields, you moral leper.
gollum….
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 5:49 pm #
What a coincidence.
Reading AoSHQ, Drew M. wrote this:
“The left needs to and wants to believe the worst about America, her soldiers and the success in Iraq. If they don’t de-legitimize all three then their agenda of ‘there are no enemies, just thugs we haven’t hugged and caved into yet’ will be exposed for the dangerous joke that it is.”
If that don’t capture gollum’s moral vacuity in a nutshell, I don’t know what can.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 5:55 pm #
Nobody said if the Israeli’s really believed those schools were rocket factories they couldn’t enter them and pick their targets carefully, No Brain.
But indoor fighting is hard work and you might get hurt.
Today’s soldiers, not quite the same as yesterday’s.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 6:05 pm #
“But indoor fighting is hard work and you might get hurt.”
And your MOS was……what?
“Today’s soldiers, not quite the same as yesterday’s.”
Go fuck yourself with a swordfish, cocksucker.
Treasonous Gollum had more character than you could ever dream of.
Comment by B Moe on 1/6 @ 6:06 pm #
Nobody said if the Israeli’s really believed those schools were rocket factories they couldn’t enter them and pick their targets carefully…
Sure, just go knock on the door and waltz in, huh, tuber. Maybe they could disquise themselves as Avon Ladies.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 6:06 pm #
What do you want to be when you grow up, alfie, a suicide bomber?
Comment by steveaz on 1/6 @ 6:22 pm #
Did y’all see Newsweek’s cover this week?
They’re lauding the “whistle blower” who tattle-taled on Bush’s wiretapping of terrorists. The blow-jobber’s got a cover photo with a Bush-damning headline.
Gawd. I can’t wait until O! gets caught eavesdropping on Waziristani radicals. My guess is, Panetta will be the fall guy, so O! can stay squeaky clean…
The parents lost, indeed.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 1/6 @ 6:39 pm #
Parsnip, it does matter. How you represent yourself on the issues matters.
That is not the moral high ground you think you are standing on.
Coward.
Comment by Mikey NTH on 1/6 @ 6:48 pm #
#156 SSG Ratso, etc.
Here is the text of the Geneva Conventions as they exist in this world.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e63bb/6fef854a3517b75ac125641e004a9e68
Comment by Big D on 1/6 @ 6:53 pm #
“No matter what mental gymnastics the IDF and their supporters perform, they still just bombed two schools full of innocent children and killed dozens of them.”
And that is exactly the response hamas wants to evoke. Way to play along with their agenda, parsnip. You really are a child, if not chronologically then mentally. Twit
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:01 pm #
So the “brave” thing to do is sit on your ass and just bomb those schools full of kide, OTT?
Haha.
I’d say your “unique” morality is part of the reason you crazies have lost two elections in a row.
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 7:02 pm #
Parsnip:
“Nobody said if the Israeli’s really believed those schools were rocket factories they couldn’t enter them and pick their targets carefully, No Brain.
“But indoor fighting is hard work and you might get hurt.
“Today’s soldiers, not quite the same as yesterday’s.”
OK, so parsnip would permit the Israelis, if Hamas is hiding rockets in schools, to counter this threat by ground raids, then implies that Israeli soldiers (or perhaps all today’s soldiers) shy away from hard work or the risk of getting hurt.
I’ll leave that libel aside. No point in engaging it. Those who know, know.
Parsnip: Do you think it’s up to the soldiers whether they go in on the ground or not? If not, why do you say they’re not what they used to be? Maybe you mean the military leadership who would order them on such a mission.
So, hypothetically: You’re a platoon leader. You gain intelligence that there are rocket positions in a school. Do you: (a) order your men inside, knowing some will be shot? And who knows? Maybe the guard has a deadman switch to blow the place sky-high at the first intrusion. Maybe the whole thing is a baited ambush. Maybe it’s set up so if you attack, you lose all your men and the school goes up anyway; and if you don’t, then they’ve got a fine offensive position, knowing you don’t want to take it?
By the way, if you don’t get killed in the attack, you’re the one writing those letters to the parents of those who did. You get to wonder for the rest of your life if you made the right call.
Or, (b), call in artillery or air, leaving yourself exposed to the sneers of such as Parsnip, but bringing your men home alive?
You might yet choose (a). But if you think it’s obviously and simply (a), and your facile certitudes lead me to believe you would, then it’s a good thing you don’t bear life-and-death responsibilities.
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 7:07 pm #
[Sheesh, we're a long way from the CIA monitoring terror suspects in Britain. To which I say, good. Anyone think maybe MI6 is returning the favor?]
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 7:07 pm #
“Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:01 pm #
So the “brave†thing to do is sit on your ass and just bomb those schools full of kide, OTT?”
And you MOS was…what?
I missed it the first time, Gollum.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:08 pm #
JPS,
To repeat myself, some people are willing to kill children to achieve their political goals, some people aren’t.
Even for the IDF soldiers it’s still a personal decision.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 7:09 pm #
#Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 7:07 pm #
Well, I’m hoping the FBI is on our domestic islamonazis like flies on alfie.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 7:10 pm #
“Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:08 pm #
JPS,
To repeat myself, some people are willing to kill children to achieve their political goals, some people aren’t.”
Yet you cheer for the creatures that make it a policy, not an accident, gollum..
Why is that?
Comment by assclown on 1/6 @ 7:10 pm #
Forget it parsnip. These guys watch “24″. They know the efficacy of torture.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:14 pm #
It’s hard to believe those dead Palestinian children were an “accident,” No Brain, when the IDF cowardly bombed two U.N. schools in an hour.
Let’s not forget at the top of the Israeli chain of command sit some very stupid and amoral politicians trying to save their careers with a high body count in Gaza.
Whether they succeed or not will say a lot about what Israel has become.
Comment by steveaz on 1/6 @ 7:14 pm #
Parsnip:
“…[S]ome people are willing to kill children to achieve their political goals…”
Oh! Yes, those liberal abortionists are gawd-awful, huh, root-crop? How I hate’s me them kiddy-killers!
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 7:15 pm #
It’s all so easy, isn’t it, Parsnip?
Assuming the IDF is anything like our military, an individual soldier can, indeed must, refuse an order he is convinced is illegal. (Heaven help him if he turns out to be wrong.) What he can’t do is individually raid a building in order to save it from an air strike.
You’ve got a fine way of begging questions, so let me ask: You’d have let the Axis take over whatever they wanted, because stopping them would inevitably result in the deaths of children, and you’re not one of those people?
And if so, how many children would die as a result of your inaction?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 7:20 pm #
“#
Comment by assclown on 1/6 @ 7:10 pm #
Forget it parsnip. These guys watch “24″. They know the efficacy of torture.”
Torture is trying to decipher your rat droppings.
Comment by Mikey NTH on 1/6 @ 7:22 pm #
#181 JPS:
Yep; I do. From what news reports I have read the various European governments say one thing in public, and do a lot of other things in private. I recall that in December there were reports that German intelligence had provided information during the invasion of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.
When it comes to a ’shadow war’ like this, a lot is done that is not said until later. Such as the Jawa Report’s friend; I would want to keep that idiot on the surface and just track who his supporters are and where from.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:23 pm #
Funny how wingnuts always skip over all recent wars and go all the way back to the Democrat’s victory 60+ years ago to try to make a point, isn’t it?
What’s the matter, JPS, no lessons from Panama, Grenada, Lebanon, Iraq or Afghanistan?
Assuming the IDF is anything like our military, an individual soldier can, indeed must, refuse an order he is convinced is illegal.
Doesn’t look like there are many legal scholars in the IDF these days.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 7:23 pm #
“Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:14 pm #
It’s hard to believe those dead Palestinian children were an “accident,†No Brain, when the IDF cowardly bombed two U.N. schools in an hour.”
They weren’t an accident, gollum. Hamas deliberately put them in danger to evoke, well, whatever reaction it is that you’re displaying. You are, in the old communist lexicon, what is know as a useful idiot.
And as to your “coward” canard (again), your MOS was….what?
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 7:24 pm #
To repeat myself, some people are willing to kill children to achieve their political goals, some people aren’t.â€Â
Since when is it a political goal to not want Hamas to launch rockets at civilians on your own soil? That seems like a national security goal to me.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 7:25 pm #
“Doesn’t look like there are many legal scholars in the IDF these days.”
Each and every one of them is smarter than you.
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 7:25 pm #
Parsnip:
World War Two was “the Democrat’s victory”?
Noted. I always thought it was the Allies’ victory.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 7:25 pm #
Funny how wingnuts always skip over all recent wars and go all the way back to the Democrat’s victory 60+ years ago to try to make a point, isn’t it?
Oh so it said “Democrat” Army on my uniform? GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU LITTLE PIECE OF SHIT.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 7:28 pm #
Do you even realize that those “Democrats” 60 years ago you refer to would be those you call right wing racist lunatics today?
Comment by Big D on 1/6 @ 7:28 pm #
“Funny how wingnuts always skip over all recent wars and go all the way back to the Democrat’s victory 60+ years ago to try to make a point, isn’t it?”
Eisenhower was a democrat? Who knew?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/6 @ 7:29 pm #
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 7:28 pm #
Please, Mr P, gollum can’t wrap his head around current reality, let alone that of 60 years ago.
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 7:38 pm #
Parsnip, you still haven’t answered. The Axis is on the march. Stopping them will result in the deaths of children (even if you don’t firebomb whole cities like The Democrat did). Let them, because you’re not one of those people, or stop them?
So what if I go back 60+ years to find the most extreme example of a moral imperative conflicting with yours? (I thought of going back to the Civil War.) You’ve formulated a moral absolute. Those aren’t time-sensitive. If it would have been true for a more recent conflict, then you should be willing to go back to an older one.
Nice work, though, changing the subject by calling WWII a Democrat victory. Neatly done.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:39 pm #
Aaah Mr. Pink,
Israel can’t unshit this bed. They’ve now openly and deliberately targeted and slaughtered children.
No more moral high ground.
Hopefully more welfare from Europe and America.
How can they have been so stupid as to follow such vapid, amoral freak like Olmert down this path?
Eisenhower did score a tie in Korea, that’s something, I guess.
Comment by B Moe on 1/6 @ 7:47 pm #
How come you never criticize Hamas for killing Israeli children, tuber? How come you never talk about them losing the moral high ground? How can you say it is moral for someone to watch their children die and not lift a finger to help them?
Comment by maggie katzen on 1/6 @ 7:47 pm #
um. no.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 7:49 pm #
Hamas openly and deliberately targets children. They do it to Jews every day. They glorify in it.
Comment by maggie katzen on 1/6 @ 7:50 pm #
oh, I don’t think “targets” is the right word, Mr. Pink. It’s more like “spray and pray”. it’s not not targeting, but…
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:51 pm #
At least Hamas still has the fig leaf that they don’t purposefully target Israeli children, B Moe.
Imagine, Hamas with the moral high ground.
Quite a victory for Israel’s part time soldiers.
Comment by maggie katzen on 1/6 @ 7:53 pm #
BWAH HA HA HA HAaaaaaa. “We will kill all the jooooos*!”
*um, not the children, though….
Comment by Bob Reed on 1/6 @ 7:53 pm #
“Two residents of the area who spoke by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal…
Two residents who spoke to an AP reporter by phone said the two brothers were known to be low-level Hamas militants. They said a group of militants  one of them said four  were firing mortar shells from near the school…
An Israeli shell targeted the men, but missed and they fled, the witnesses said, refusing to allow their names to be published because they feared for their safety. Then another three shells landed nearby, exploding among civilians, they said.
Palestinian militants have frequently fired from residential areas in the past.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 7:54 pm #
At least Hamas still has the fig leaf that they don’t purposefully target Israeli children, B Moe.
YOU ARE FUCKIN INSANE.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/6 @ 7:55 pm #
You seriously can not be this stupid. You have to be saying this crap on purpose just to piss people off.
Comment by ChrisP on 1/6 @ 8:00 pm #
He not only can be, he IS this stupid. Totally divorced from reality. Why even engage this retarded marmoset? Just Trollhammer” the little shit and ignore it. I do, and my life is MUCH better for it(as is my blood pressure from being stunned that something this ignorant is still alive). Where is Darwin when we need him most?
Whatever blows your skirt up!
ChrisP
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 8:03 pm #
Problems with your dogma, Mr. Pink?
Doesn’t seem very flexible.
Even the IDF now admits its killing Palestinian kids rather than suffer the embarrassment of IDF casualties:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053401.html
I remember when Israel was led by heroes.
Comment by Bob Reed on 1/6 @ 8:07 pm #
Sorry for the premature submittal folks…
Parsnip, do you by chance, trust
PravdaObama A.P.?In addition to my previous quotes:
“Unfortunately tonight’s incident is just another example of how Hamas operates,” said Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev. “This is not the first time they have exploited a U.N. facility. This is not the first time that they have deliberately used innocent civilians as human shields.”
Here’s something called a link, it must be a strange and wonderous thing to you since I rarely recall seeing you provide them…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
“Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 7:51 pm #
At least Hamas still has the fig leaf that they don’t purposefully target Israeli children..”
And this is a laffer, even for you! What are all those unguided, ballistic, will-nilly 120 mm rockets doing then? Those Hamas vermin have made it clear that they don’t care who they hit, as long as they’re Jooooooooooos!
You know parsnip, killing children to score political points?
What about all the children that died in Clinton’s military actions? And, what about all of the children that suffered as a result of the attack on the world trade center?
I mean you’re the great moral relativist, as you admitted in #150, why don’t you explain this to us all…
And why don’t you read and comment on Ric’s excellent argument @155.
Finally, riddle me this; Why do the Palestinians in Gaza simply reject Hamas and their ways? It seems to me that Israel wasn’t engaging targets in Gaza until they began their rocket bambardments on Israel. Why do you condone Hamas acting like gangsters controlling their neighborhood? Why do you condone them putting all those innocent Palestinian children in peril by recklessly bombarding Israel?
Comment by Sdferr on 1/6 @ 8:09 pm #
Moronic, what else can one say?
Ham-ass wants annihilation, not pointless truce making. So US foreign policy sinks further into contemptibility.
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 8:09 pm #
Ric Locke had it right back in #155. How to win any conflict against a country run by Parsnip:
1) Use children as shields;
2) Not give a shit.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/6 @ 8:12 pm #
Beslan.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 8:14 pm #
Sorry, Bob,
I consider Ric PW’s biggest blowhard and my eyes usually glaze over hald way through his tomes.
Leave it to a childish one-handed “24″ viewer to try and use a far-fetched imaginary scenario rather than discuss the topic at hand…IDF soldiers standing outside a Palestinian school wondering whether they have the guts to enter it or just lob a few motar rounds into it instead.
Comment by Mikey NTH on 1/6 @ 8:18 pm #
These are nice words:
“We need urgently to conclude a ceasefire that can endure and that can bring real security,†Rice told the UN Security Council. “In this regard we are pleased by and wish to commend the statement of the president of Egypt and to follow up on that initiative.â€Â
Since none of the preconditions can be met – a ceasefire that can endure and provide real security – the adults can continue on, and the international community can waltz in Vienna. Or wherever they wish.
Naked force answers a lot of questions.
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 8:20 pm #
Parsnip, did you read my hypothetical, 2nd half of comment 180?
It’s not a matter of guts. It’s a question of how many of your men–men you’ve trained with, for whom you’re responsible–you’re willing to see killed in order to protect noncombatants the enemy has placed in danger. And if you think the answer is, “All of ‘em! That’s a no-brainer!” then you are more hard-hearted than anyone here you’re sneering at.
Very few militaries in the military, by the way, would answer more than zero under any circumstances. Israel’s is one.
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/6 @ 8:23 pm #
There’s nothing stopping both things from being true, Mr. Pink.
Monky doesn’t believe in the Geneva Conventions, despite protests. Monky doesn’t have any concept of what’s in the Geneva Conventions — he thinks it’s all Vonnegut’s Rule: Brothers and sisters, you’ve got to be kind.
Monky: According to the Geneva Conventions you pretend to love so much — if combatants hide behind noncombatants, and the noncombatants are hurt in the ensuing action, the ones doing the hiding are guilty of war crimes, NOT their attackers. If Hamas puts a rocket factory in a school, and children are hurt when the Israelis attack it, it is Hamas who is guilty of the war crime, not the IDF. The IDF soldiers know this. They may not be “legal scholars”, but like our guys they get extensive training in the Laws of War, including the Geneva Conventions — the real ones, not the cartoon you have in your head.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Great Mencken's Ghost! on 1/6 @ 8:23 pm #
BJTexas– Panetta passed the most important part of the Obama vetting: “Hillary, do you know anybody who can keep his mouth shut?”
Remember, Leon was around while Gorelick was building the Clintons’ Chinese Wall, so he knows what real intelligence work looks like…
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 8:23 pm #
By the way, Parsnip, I’m no fan of the chickenhawk argument. But if you are not likely to find yourself making that decision as a leader, it’s really nasty of you to disparage the guts of those who must.
Comment by Bob Reed on 1/6 @ 8:24 pm #
Well parsnip,
I’m delighted to see that you’ll provide a link when it suits you!
Why is it wrong to try to safeguard your soldiers lives? I’ve been in harms way, have you? I can appreciate that mindset in a commanding officer.
I’ve been known to let a few AIM-54’s fly, at ranges that my opponent could never hope to match; in the interest of protecting me and mine. Should I have let them close to a range where they could have engaged before firing? Perhaps I should have only utilized the gun? Maybe I should have switched onto their freq so they could hear my report “Fox 3″?
Did general Patton fret about collateral damage, in the patriotic, Democrat, war?
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 8:26 pm #
On the contrary, JPS, whether to kill children instead of having ones soldiers run a little risk looks to be a rather easy decision for IDF “leaders” these days.
Can’t have Olmert’s collection of fools drop in the polls, can we?
Comment by JPS on 1/6 @ 8:27 pm #
[Re #220: For "militaries in the military," please read, "militaries in the world," to avoid picturing a situation like Malkovich's trip into Malkovich's head.]
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/6 @ 8:36 pm #
(By the way: anyone who has ever seen an episode of 24 has seen at least one more episode than I have. Commercial TV rots your frontal lobes.)
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Mikey NTH on 1/6 @ 8:38 pm #
It seems to me that the great jihadi warriors are pretty loose with their talk of martyrdom, willing to fight until the last blood of their own children. They don’t try and protect them, they put them in harm’s way deliberately.
Such manliness! Depending on their sworn enemies to protect their women and children! Truly, where do they get such men willing to fight behind skirts and primers!
No other warriors have ever dared such before!
(mostly because they would have died from humiliation first)
Comment by Bob Reed on 1/6 @ 8:47 pm #
Well, as Peyton said in the Oreo commercial, “It’s on like Donkey Kong!”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090107/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_al_qaida_tape_gaza
Now Al-Queda will definitively become evil; they’ve dared to criticize the one!
Now they’ll be subject to all the weapons that the left has deployed against Boooooooosh! and his evil minions for the last 8 years…
I’m sure that a few scathing “Speshul Komments” by Keefy, or stern looks by Rachel Maddow, will be all it will take; Al-Queda will be surrendering in droves!
I mean, how much negative pub on MSNBC will they be able to stand..?
Comment by cynn on 1/6 @ 8:53 pm #
oH, give me a break, Ric. You ground-gamer,you.
Comment by nikkolai on 1/6 @ 9:17 pm #
Do not engage the Talking Telephone Pole aka parsnip aka alphie aka actus. It is malignant, retarded and racist. No utility value whatsoever. Ignore.
Comment by Pablo on 1/6 @ 9:19 pm #
Really, snippy? Name them.
Comment by Makewi on 1/6 @ 10:05 pm #
Honestly, who gives a rat’s ass what parsnip thinks about IDF soldiers or the situation in Israel in general? He hates the jews now with an excuse to do so, and he hated them before when they weren’t acting on the average of 70 rockets a day landing inside Israel.
He should rot.
Comment by steveaz on 1/6 @ 10:13 pm #
The good news is Parsnip is rowing his boat alone tonight. He’s only got one oar and his boat is going in circles. And noone appears to be pulling with him.
He is indeed an army of one…caught in an eddy while the main river runs by.
Which says a lot about his cause. Afterall, if mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery, then Obama’s earnest adoption of Bush’s FISA-wiretapping, “rendition,” taxation and military policies is a strong indication of just how far out of the current The Root and his fellow travelers find themselves tonight.
Heck! I might even drop some dough into Obama’s Dow next week – he’s that Bush-like. And, once Gaza’s gutters get scrubbed of terrorists, and peace ensues under Obama’s watch, Parsnip can point to another “Democrat Party Victory.”
Kids are funny like that – childish, I mean. Like a Chomsky eating his crayons. Anything goes.
Comment by Ag80 on 1/6 @ 11:33 pm #
I said before that I wouldn’t respond to parsnip. But, I’m going to one last time, I swear.
He’s arguing to argue. His ultimate goal is to find a comment here that he can post somewhere else to prove to his fellow travelers that people here are unrepentant racist Nazis, or some such.
parsnip is the definition of “troll.” And, sadly, for him/her, that’s all he/she is. I hope he can find, in his life, something more important.
Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 11:40 pm #
If every Republican is as psychic as you ag, how do you explain the last 2 elections?
Wouldn’t you guys pick a few winners?
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/6 @ 11:54 pm #
The even better news is that it’s beginning to dawn on some of the leftists just how far into outer space many of their number have sailed; see Norm Geras and Harry’s Place. These are not people most of us will agree with on a lot of issues, some fundamental, but there is now a noticeable and seemingly growing minority of Guardianistas who would reject monky with almost the same contempt we do.
There’s a Christopher Anvil story in which aliens, the Centrans, invade the Earth. Aside from spaceships the invaders have, in general, a lower technological level than humans do, especially the USA, but there are a lot of them. One of the things humans have invented that the Centrans have not is machine guns, which they call “stitching-guns”, and they study them intensely. Later on one of the seniors among the Centrans is gratified to see that a newly-arrived unit is equipped with genuine Centran stitching-guns… I don’t think Obama is nearly as centrist as his early appointments make him appear, but I think there are going to be a lot of genuine Leftist stitching-guns issued in future.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by comatus on 1/7 @ 1:21 am #
Ric, I enjoyed your synopsis of CIA’s evolution. Most of us have some kind of racial memory of CIA being in charge of humint moles, plants, and spies. Clearly, Army intelligence was better all along at managing police-type sources (stoolies, informers, out-and-out turncoats); probably the military is not the right agency to field old-fashioned spies, who impersonate locals. I’m sure this problem will come up in future posts; sometime we’ll have to discuss how that could be handled in a shared-intelligence framework that lives without the current CIA.
CIA’s chartered purpose was to make sure the branches didn’t hoard their assets. They failed. The Pentagon has its own mechanisms to insure that assets are shared between the military branches, but Hoover-style empire building in the civilian sector obviated against success outside military channels. It’s dangerous capital not to share, and becomes even more dangerous when reserved for sectarian use. And it’s not exactly stuff that can brought before a subcommittee. How will we administer this institutionally in the future, to avoid the failures and abuses we’ve seen? I’d be interested in hearing your thinking on this, and maybe some others’ too. The setup we have now has a flow-chart that’ll make you dizzy.
Comment by Rusty on 1/7 @ 5:52 am #
#228
I especially liked the video of the Hamas gunman who, when he needed to cross a street being covered by the IDF, picks up a kid by his backpack and carrying the kid in front of him runs across the street.
These are the people the left admires.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 1/7 @ 5:58 am #
Ya know, all the leftards who write things into the Geneva Conventions that demonstrably are not there have less of an understanding of them than they’d have gotten from watching “Hogan’s Heroes” re-runs. It’s like someone deliberately taught them wrong.
Comment by B Moe on 1/7 @ 6:20 am #
Tuberhead isn’t stupid, he is a propogandist for Hamas. Or Hezballah. Or Iran, or AQ, or anybody fighting the US. That much should be obvious by now, he wants to see America destroyed.
Imagine, Hamas with the moral high ground.
Sorry dude, I don’t have that creative an imagination.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/7 @ 6:29 am #
The comparison is sick and deranged. This flipping psychopath is trying to imply a terrorist organization, in a post 9-11 world, has the “moral highground”. WTF is this guy smoking? How can you be so deranged with BDS to suggest that shit I will never know.
Comment by B Moe on 1/7 @ 6:30 am #
The good news is Parsnip is rowing his boat alone tonight.
Looks like datadave has resorted to necroposting in the middle of the night.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/7 @ 6:37 am #
I wonder what Nick Berg would have to say on “moral highground”.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/7 @ 7:06 am #
“Comment by parsnip on 1/6 @ 8:14 pm #
Sorry, Bob,
I consider Ric PW’s biggest blowhard and my eyes usually glaze over hald way through his tomes.”
That’s ’cause you’re an idiot, gollum, an amoral twit.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/7 @ 7:08 am #
“…IDF soldiers standing outside a Palestinian school wondering whether they have the guts to enter it or just lob a few motar rounds into it instead.”
And your MOS was…..what?
Comment by Mr. Pink on 1/7 @ 7:11 am #
I can not guess his MOS but I can tell you his nickname would be Blue Falcon.
Comment by MAJ (P) John on 1/7 @ 7:16 am #
Imagine some brave Hamas fighters holed up in a school surrounded by the IDF – do they have the guts to go out and fight the IDF, or will they simply hide behind a pile of kids? Hmmm… actually, that one isn’t too hard to figure out is it?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/7 @ 7:17 am #
I’m sorry, but I have to repeat this:
alfie, you’re not good enough to lick the sand from my sons combat boots.
That statement is true for thor, it’s true for seman and it’s true for you.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/7 @ 7:19 am #
Comment by MAJ (P) John on 1/7 @ 7:16 am #
OOOO OOOO I’ve been reading Victor Davis Hanson!
I know! I know!
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/7 @ 7:26 am #
Comatus, there is no law of God or Man that guarantees answers to all problems exist. I greatly fear that this is one of those situations where the only approximation of a solution is to burn the brush and start over once in a while.
If a solution exists, it does not include turning the stay-at-home analysts into bureaucracy. Any bureacracy is subject to Pournelle’s Iron Law; a secret bureaucracy, or one specifically empowered to keep secrets, complies more or less instantaneously. Perhaps a solution would be to have the analysts divided into small groups under military supervision? It would mean accepting considerable inefficiency.
As for who runs the “real spies”, the answer is “the State Department”, as has been true since the beginning of time. Casting “journalism” loose worked for a while, but privatizing the rest of it is just ludicrous. Of course, the problem then becomes riding herd on the State Department, and that one, too, is unsolved…
Regards,
Ric
Comment by SDN on 1/7 @ 7:50 am #
Ric, the solution there is the same one as for the rest of the bureaucracy: “You serve at the pleasure of the President.” That way, Presidents can at least get rid of insubordinates, and the voters have someone to hold accountable at the next election if the people he fires are the ones who actually make things work.
Comment by Ric Locke on 1/7 @ 8:11 am #
Well, SDN, I’d say that would be part of it, but consider: Here we have a group of bureaucrats whose specific remit is keeping their activities secret. They can argue, not merely plausibly but perfectly correctly, that even minor matters of organization, assignment, and pay are important clues for opposing spies — if people are being hired or transferred into the Cuban Interest Section, something must be about to go down in Cuba. OPSEC is hard because seemingly trivial stuff can lead to important conclusions.
How do you supervise that, even to the point of determining which members are acting outside of or in contradiction to their assigned duties? Any (putative) supervisor coming in from outside is not only seen as, he actually is, a threat to the necessary secrecy. Such a supervisor must know, at minimum, the basic structure of the organization and who is assigned to which duties — information which, if released, exposes the members to possible violence or extortion, and allows other interested parties to trace the flow of data within the group. Believe it or not, even that last is disastrous for the stated purpose of the organization. If an opponent knows even the broad outlines of data flow, he can monitor data sources and sinks and learn much about what data is being processed.
I don’t think the problem has a “solution” per se. A stopgap would be dividing the group up into smaller subgroups, each under separate supervision and with little or no communication between them. That would be monstrously inefficient and subject to data leakage, but when the individual groups become cancerous it would be at least possible to excise them.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by B Moe on 1/7 @ 8:11 am #
Here is a good look at your superior morality, tuberhead. Up close, personal, straight from the demon’s mouth:
http://www.julescrittenden.com/2009/01/07/weep-no-more/#more-9370
Comment by thor on 1/7 @ 8:28 am #
You’re not good enough to hide behind your son’s combat boots. Oh wait, yes you are. Or maybe not. Tough call.
DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/7 @ 8:58 am #
Comment by thor on 1/7 @ 8:28 am #
Go take your meds, thor and have a nice long nap.
‘Mkay?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/7 @ 10:05 am #
“At about the same time the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center happened to release an 81-page report on “Hamas Exploitation of Civilians as Human Shields.†It describes such Hamas practices as:
* firing projectiles “at Israeli population centers from inside or close to private Palestinian residences and sometimes from educational institutions and mosquesâ€Â;
* “exploit[ing] IDF warnings to civilians to evacuate their residences…to send children and adolescents to the relevant locationsâ€Â; and
* “repeatedly attack[ing]†the crossings into Gaza “with rocket and mortar shell fire as well as attempted mass-casualty and suicide bombing attacks.†”
These are the monsters that alfie and thor defend.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 1/7 @ 10:05 am #
Let’s repeat this one”
* “exploit[ing] IDF warnings to civilians to evacuate their residences…to send children and adolescents to the relevant locationsâ€Â;
Is that ok, alftard?
Comment by Rob Crawford on 1/7 @ 11:00 am #
FTFY.