…we’d be pretty much covered. And honestly, don’t you deserve a life free from chance or freak occurrences? “Wal-Mart Worker Death Sparks New Law Proposal”:
Two days after a mob of impatient shoppers trampled a Wal-Mart worker to death at a Valley Stream, N.Y., store, a Queens, N.Y.-based lawmaker announced plans to propose a new law aimed at controlling future Black Friday crowds, according to the Chicago Tribune. Long Island officials said they were considering similar measures. New York City Councilman James Gennaro recently held a news conference to announce his plans to craft a “Doorbuster Bill” that would require retailers to enact greater security measures during major sales.
Sure! And retailers will then pass those “savings” on to you!
The new law was proposed in the wake of the death Friday of Jdimytai Damour, a seasonal employee who was killed after a crowd of 2,000 broke down store doors and ran over him. Wal-Mart representatives have defended the company’s security policies and said the Valley Stream store had augmented its security personnel and erected barricades in preparation for Black Friday.
Let’s just hope no lawmaker takes a look at the crowd shots from the Valley Stream incident and decides to ban blacks from bargain shopping. For their own good, of course.
I mean, so long as the government is interested in doing the grandstanding thing, why not go all out…?
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 4:05 pm #
“Let’s just hope no lawmaker takes a look at the crowd shots from the Valley Stream incident and decides to ban blacks from bargain shopping.”
Jeff – Won’t happen. That would be like politicians getting rid of the CRA to protect minorities from taking out mortgages on houses they can’t afford. For their own protection.
Comment by happyfeet on 12/1 @ 4:05 pm #
It’s nice they called them a mob. They really worked hard for that little appellation.
Comment by BJTexs on 12/1 @ 4:12 pm #
They are going to waste time passing this law when I NEVER GOT MY PROMISED LAW AGAINST THE COMMON COLD!!
(sniff)
I’d like to see laws banning roadtards of all stripes and old women asking me questions about what to do with the antenna now that they have a digital converter.
Comment by BJTexs on 12/1 @ 4:13 pm #
“But, but, how are they going to hook the digital thing to my 1959 Zenith black and white? Color? Oh, my!”
Comment by Asher Litwin on 12/1 @ 4:27 pm #
It’s absurd, really. I’m pretty sure that the only damn thing that would have kept that mob back would have been guns. Lots of guns. Held by Wal-Mart employees behind that barricade. These people BROKE DOWN THE DOORS, for crying out loud. There’s nothing that Wal-Mart COULD have done, except field a private fully armed military-grade squad…
Comment by Techie on 12/1 @ 4:27 pm #
I’d also like a law against icy overpasses, while we’re at it.
Comment by Techie on 12/1 @ 4:27 pm #
Good point, what was security supposed to do after the doors break inwards? Open fire? Break out the tear gas?
Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 12/1 @ 4:31 pm #
Equip the door-openers with five foot long keys?
Comment by John on 12/1 @ 4:42 pm #
Wanna solve this problem, New York politicians? Take down the roadblocks you put up preventing Walmart from locating inside New York City.
The pols work with the unions to block Walmart from getting inside the city limits unless they unionize, and Walmart balks at coming in due to fear they will end up with a union store. The result is a store in Valley Stream, less than a mile outside the city limits, attracts not just neighborhood customers like every other Walmart, but all of Southeastern Queens (roughly 750,000 people) who see all the TV ads about the store discounts and sales, but have no local store other than Valley Stream.
Comment by Clint on 12/1 @ 4:43 pm #
Tear gas. You can never go wrong with tear gas.
Also, gigantic flamethrowers.
That would be quality crowd control.
Comment by Mikey NTH on 12/1 @ 4:56 pm #
Short of setting up a machine gun, there is little that any security could have done with a crowd like that other than call the police before something happens, and then hope that 200 riot officers arrive.
Comment by Sdferr on 12/1 @ 5:12 pm #
http://www.crowddynamics.com/technical/
See particularly the accounts:
1)1964 (May 24) Lima, Peru. (tear gas)
2)1971 (Jan 2nd) Glasgow, Scotland
3)1993 (Jan 1st) Lan Kwai Fong, Hong Kong.
4)1999 (May 31) Minsk, Belarus.
5)2000 (March 25) Durban, South Africa. (tear gas)
6)2001 May 9 – Ghana, West Africa (tear gas)
Comment by Two Dogs on 12/1 @ 5:22 pm #
The easy solution would be to outlaw people congregating in large groups. Set the limit at twenty. That seems reasonable, huh? I think that they should try the law out first, let’s say a Union Station.
Comment by dicentra on 12/1 @ 5:24 pm #
I’d like to see laws banning … old women asking me questions about what to do with the antenna now that they have a digital converter.
I hate my digital converter. At least with analog, if the signal is a bit degraded, you can still see and hear the program. With digital, the slightest flutter in the signal causes pixellation, and the sound cuts out entirely. And if the signal isn’t strong enough, you get bupkis.
Given that I live near the airport’s flight-path, I’m pretty much screwed when the planes approach from the south.
Comment by dicentra on 12/1 @ 5:26 pm #
Actually, passing a law is the dumbest thing they could do. The “safer” you make something look, the less cautious people will be. If people know that they could end up eating tile instead of getting a sweet deal on a plasma, maybe they’ll be more careful.
And maybe I’ll flap my wings and fly to the moon.
Comment by cranky-d on 12/1 @ 5:29 pm #
Can you bring back some of that green cheese the moon is made of?
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 5:45 pm #
And horde of ruthless savages who broke down the damn doors breaking into the store bear no responsibility whatsoever.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 5:48 pm #
meya – Who could have predicted all those spear chuckers looking for blood outside the store? It looked like Rourke’s Drift.
Comment by Carin on 12/1 @ 5:48 pm #
When thinking about the employers actions regarding the tragedy at wal-mart, “Chance†and “freak occurrence†didn’t really come to mind. Negligence and recklessness more like it. A life free of these would be nice
Negligence and recklessness on whose part, Meya? Do you hold those who did the stomping accountable at all?
Comment by urthshu on 12/1 @ 5:49 pm #
Well, actually the easiest way to prevent such tragedies is not to have any black friday sales.
Comment by Carin on 12/1 @ 5:51 pm #
And horde of ruthless savages who broke down the damn doors breaking into the store bear no responsibility whatsoever.
Not to mention, those callous individuals who wanted to get their door buster savings even AFTER the poor man died.
Yea … a law and a few more security guards will solve this problem!
Comment by Carin on 12/1 @ 5:53 pm #
I think it’s stupid urthshu, but it is ridiculous to imagine that free commerce should be interfered with because people are assholes. It appears instead of fixing the cause (black friday) we should address the “asshole” part of the equation.
Comment by Carin on 12/1 @ 5:54 pm #
Of course, I can’t help but think that the real “root causes” of all this is the name “black friday. ” That has to be hurtful. I bet that’s why they crushed that man. BECAUSE THE MAN IS KEEPING THEM DOWN.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 5:54 pm #
K-Mart would have distracted them with those fiendish blue lights I think.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 5:58 pm #
Carin – O agree. Martin Luther Carver Lincoln Washington Jefferson Kwanza Obama Friday might be a better name choice.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 5:59 pm #
I agree.
Comment by parsnip on 12/1 @ 5:59 pm #
Geez!
Some government bureaucrat trying to protect his constituants from unnecessary deaths.
What a laugh!
Here’s hoping Supreme Commander Obama clears out all the nannystate parasites in our malls, airports, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 5:59 pm #
Well, actually the easiest way to prevent such tragedies is not to have any black friday sales.
You know how many Wal-Mart stores there are in this country? Every one of them had a sale that Friday, and have been doing it for years now without incident. Statistically, that would indicate the problem is not with the store or the sale.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 6:02 pm #
“Here’s hoping Supreme Commander Obama clears out all the nannystate parasites in our malls, airports, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.”
Racist! Those parasites ARE his constituents.
Comment by Sdferr on 12/1 @ 6:04 pm #
Not the corporation, I took you to mean, B Moe, nor the sale occasion, as you say. But the individual store may ultimately be found to have a problem or two. And I have no doubt that the corporation already has all the incentive it will need to see to it that this doesn’t happen again, and certainly doesn’t have any need of a new “law” to guide it to the proper fixes.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 6:05 pm #
“And horde of ruthless savages who broke down the damn doors breaking into the store bear no responsibility whatsoever.”
“Chance” and “freak occurence” didn’t come to mind when I thought about walmart, nor did it come to mind when I thought about the crowd. But we were talking about stores here, so I thought I’d stick to that.
“meya – Who could have predicted all those spear chuckers looking for blood outside the store? It looked like Rourke’s Drift.”
I recommend that people who fear spear chuckers wear white hoods for self defense.
“Not to mention, those callous individuals who wanted to get their door buster savings even AFTER the poor man died.”
I don’t see how people can be blamed for the things they do after the guy dies.
Comment by urthshu on 12/1 @ 6:06 pm #
obviously, i was having a joke about banning sales.
also daleyrocks is not being funny right now, i think
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 6:13 pm #
I recommend that people who fear spear chuckers wear white hoods for self defense.
No, that would be people like you, who think that black folks shouldn’t be expected to behave like civilized human beings.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 6:16 pm #
“also daleyrocks is not being funny right now, i think”
urthshu – Examine who the statement is made in response to.
Comment by Asher Litwin on 12/1 @ 6:17 pm #
Yet another reason for me to keep my shopping to the internet. Only result of me getting trampled there would be having to reboot my router.
Comment by Synova on 12/1 @ 6:19 pm #
I disagree with Moe about “no incident”.
One of my friends who works at the Wal-Mart here said that last year a shopper was knocked over and seriopusly injured during the rush through the doors.
Because of that, this year, they were not allowed to close the doors (store manager decision?) but put the sale items out on pallets wrapped in black plastic and simply took the plastic off at the appointed hour. People were in the store the whole time, but still had to go find the particular sale item they most wanted.
In any case… that someone didn’t *die* doesn’t mean their weren’t incidents at other stores or in previous years.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 6:20 pm #
“No, that would be people like you, who think that black folks shouldn’t be expected to behave like civilized human beings.”
SPB – How could you even contemplate such unreasonable expectations after the way this country has treated black people for the past two hundred years? I sentence you to attend Trinity United Church of Christ for six months of reprogramming.
Comment by Synova on 12/1 @ 6:21 pm #
*sigh*
seriously
there
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 6:32 pm #
Maybe they should put heavily reinforced solid steel doors up instead of the traditional steel and glass ones these thugs broke, that way the mob would just crush their own up against the doors instead of hapless working stiffs.
But only in poor, black neighborhoods BECAUSE OF THE RACISM!!!!!
Comment by SDN on 12/1 @ 6:33 pm #
#30, those parasites referred to are our troops…. whose boots this *sshole (#28) isn’t fit to lick.
And as for the “nannystate parasites in the airports” it was Swimmer Kennedy and crew who insisted that President Bush create new government union members in exchange for not blocking any action in response to 9/11.
Comment by Dave E. on 12/1 @ 6:33 pm #
30 comments to get the first “Racist!”. That’s just sad.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 6:38 pm #
Maybe we should just make the store out of foam, and require all shoppers to wear helmets and flak jackets.
Jesus Christ, this is depressing. I don’t know why I fucking give a shit anymore.
Comment by Asher Litwin on 12/1 @ 6:38 pm #
I feel so honored… the very first time I post in a thread, and Parsnip deigns to visit! Welcome, dear sir!
*snicker*
There’s nothing wrong with a government official wanting to protect his constituants. But throwing stupid at stupid won’t fix a damn thing. It just exponentiates the stupid. Because, you know, stupid is a positive feedback system. Start the stupid, and ZOOOM!
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/1 @ 6:39 pm #
So you’re down with banning sales? Crowds? Stores? Human nature?
Who was negligent here? The store for lowering its prices? Face it: the people who broke the fucking door down to get their sale booty are responsible, and the store could have done nothing save not hold a sale. Which really is unfair to all those people who, like, don’t trample workers on their way to bargain hunting.
Uh huh. And by “industry,” I take it you mean the government? Otherwise, why are you arguing? And who with?
Let somebody sue the store and see if it is found negligent for locking its doors and holding a sale — without foreseeing that a mob would break in.
Hell, we should do that during riots after NBA Championship wins, too. YOU LOCKED YOUR DOORS! THAT WAS JUST ASKING FOR LOOTING!
Comment by parsnip on 12/1 @ 6:39 pm #
The bias that dare not speak its name must be subtle, Dave.
So subtle that nobody enen gets the code words any more.
How sad.
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/1 @ 6:45 pm #
I’m with BMoe. People like meya and parsnip argue for such stupid laws solely because their political “opponents” find them incredibly intrusive. They are good because the people who find them despicable are, well, despicable.
But let the NSA pull data out of the air and watch these same concern trolls screech with indignation over the loss of civil liberties!
Comment by Dave E. on 12/1 @ 6:48 pm #
Um, that comment was meant to be read with a certain PW outlaw irony, Parsnip. I obviously failed and so denounce myself.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 12/1 @ 6:49 pm #
There is, however, a point at which the business is no longer responsible. People stampeding, rather than behaving like adult humans, is not the fault of the business.
The people who took part in that stampede made the choice to do so. They could have been more patient, taken their time, made sure their behavior didn’t put the lives of others in danger. They chose not to. Their choices led to someone’s death, and they should be held accountable for that.
The business is no more responsible for the man’s death than a bank is responsible for a teller being shot during a robbery.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 6:50 pm #
“So you’re down with banning sales? Crowds? Stores? Human nature?”
Banning seems silly. But when people see crowds outside of stores, maybe they’ll have a different reaction than just sending an employee to open a door in front of them. Or maybe they’ll plan better when they run a sale that will bring lots of people. Synova talked about changes made in one place to improve safety. But that cant be! because only banning sales will work.
“Uh huh. And by “industry,†I take it you mean the government? Otherwise, why are you arguing? And who with?”
By industry I mean everyone involved in the transactions at stake: consumers, workers, suppliers, shareholders, etc… If the cost of doing business goes up, those costs are allocated among the players in that industry according to market power and market forces.
“Let somebody sue the store and see if it is found negligent for locking its doors and holding a sale  without foreseeing that a mob would break in.”
Yeah lets see if there was negligence here. Maybe lawsuits could be a motivator to improve safety. If unions can’t hack it, maybe plaintiff’s lawyers will.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 6:53 pm #
“The business is no more responsible for the man’s death than a bank is responsible for a teller being shot during a robbery.”
That’s a good analogy. There are things banks can do to improve the safety of their employees during a robbery. Both in terms of physical plant as well as policy.
Comment by happyfeet on 12/1 @ 6:54 pm #
Also meya we must guard against ennui.
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/1 @ 6:57 pm #
Yeah. Not like people have ever run through aisles during sales. It’s all about logistics!
The point being that you can’t legislate away boorish behavior.
Exactly. So why are you arguing with a post that finds government interference into this process problematic?
“They enticed me, your honor. With the low low prices, and the big colorful ads. All those low priced goodies — behind a locked door! I mean, it’s like a woman in a short skirt, you know? Wal-Mart is a consumerist slut who was just asking to be stampeded!”
Comment by Jeffersonian on 12/1 @ 7:01 pm #
“The more corrupt the state, the more numerous its laws.” – Tacitus
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 7:01 pm #
But when people see crowds outside of stores, maybe they’ll have a different reaction than just sending an employee to open a door in front of them.
The employee didn’t open the door, meya. A mob of inbred, uneducated, ill-tempered savages broke the motherfucker down. And instead of condemning such behavior, you blame Wal-Mart. That makes you a big damn part of the problem in my eyes, because the only solution I see is to be putting a huge ass spotlight on these no class miscreants and trying to shame them into behaving like reasonable adult human beings.
Comment by Jeffersonian on 12/1 @ 7:08 pm #
Your narrative is inaccurate, meya, leading you to foolish conclusions and ineffective recommendations.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 7:11 pm #
That shockingly intrude on walmart’s ability to order a worker to open a door in front of a crowd.
So you’re going to persist in this claim even after it’s already been pointed out that it’s wrong?
Back in the troll bin you go.
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/1 @ 7:14 pm #
I think that opening a locked door shouldn’t require a safety mandate implemented specifically by the government to guard against stampeding crowds during sales events. Wal-Mart held similar sales at thousands of locations around the country where no one was trampled to death by a crowd tearing doors off their hinges.
There’s probably a law against recklessly trampling someone to death somewhere on the books already.
Then he should have applied for a job at a union shop, or refused to take this job if he didn’t like the fact that he wasn’t being “protected” by a union. Like all those out of work autoworkers.
His choice.
But no matter how you slice it, Walmart isn’t to blame for the actions of a stampeding mob who broke into this particular store. The stampeding mob is to blame.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 7:25 pm #
meya – Maybe the mob was being chased by people wearing white hoods?
Comment by JD on 12/1 @ 7:25 pm #
meya is giving parsnip some competition for the most mendoucheous asshat of the thread.
Comment by Jeffersonian on 12/1 @ 7:28 pm #
I’m more interested in how workers can enforceably increase their safety  even if they’re temp holiday labor at walmart  rather than simple mandates to do it or punishment for failing to do it.
What evidence do you have the the victim was either told to put himself at risk or threatened with discharge if he did not?
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 7:28 pm #
The NYSlimes tells me he was part of a group holding the doors closed. Protecting walmart.
5 minutes ago he was “ordered” to “open the doors in front of the crowd” so he wouldn’t get “fired or disciplined”. Now he was “protecting walmart” by “holding the doors closed”.
You’re a real piece of work, meya.
Buh-bye.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 7:31 pm #
SDN @41 – I meant the stampeding mob, the muzzies, terrorists and brown people in Iraq and Afghanistan, not our soldiers. Sorry if there was confusion.
Comment by Sdferr on 12/1 @ 7:33 pm #
I’m curious meya, you’ve twice now said Dan “told us what tragedy was for” but have not said what it was he “told” us? Do you think you can say what that was? Because frankly, I don’t remember him doing anything of the kind.
Comment by steveaz on 12/1 @ 7:42 pm #
Cool thread.
Meya comes closest so far to saying that the dead, trampelled guy had it coming, that he should have gotten out of the mob’s way.
“It’s his fault he got stamped on, bein’ a Walmart bouncer and all.” I’ve been waiting for it, and, Meya’s beginning to hint at it.
Enjoyin’ the thread, otherwise. Thanks, Jeff, dinner’s ready.
Comment by Detective Lt. Michael Fleming on 12/1 @ 7:45 pm #
Its also got some weenie lib statist named Detective Lt. Michael Fleming adding: “I’ve heard other people call this an accident, but it is not,†he said. “Certainly it was a foreseeable act.â€Â
Damn straight, they was rumors out there that watermelons and hog jowls was on sale, you really expect them niggras to behave?
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 7:55 pm #
“Meya comes closest so far to saying that the dead, trampelled guy had it coming, that he should have gotten out of the mob’s way.”
The words “his choice” were in one of my posts…
Comment by N. O'Brain on 12/1 @ 7:56 pm #
Is a “meya” a unit of stupidity?
Comment by JD on 12/1 @ 8:06 pm #
The individual fucksticks in that mob cannot be responsible for their own actions. Plus, those damn smiley faces make me want to trample people.
Comment by Carin on 12/1 @ 8:07 pm #
I think Meya more accurately blames the trampled dude’s boss and Walmart. Forseeable act? Forseeable by whom? What was different about THAT crowd from all the thousands of other crowds waiting for stores to open? It’s very obvious that there was something different about that crowd. What do you want to guess no one wants to talk about that?
Comment by Carin on 12/1 @ 8:09 pm #
I’m more interested in how workers can enforceably increase their safety  even if they’re temp holiday labor at walmart  rather than simple mandates to do it or punishment for failing to do it.
I’m thinking if he’d been armed …
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 8:16 pm #
I hate WalMart generally, but I must agree they were overwhelmed. The focus on black people rather than mob mentality is both edgy and desperado. First, a poll tax to prevent stupids from voting for Obama; now a proscription against black folks going to market. My Land!
Comment by Mikey NTH on 12/1 @ 8:18 pm #
I such a bill against illness was passed, could a case against Gaia be brought in the environmental court?
I remember there was a concert (The Who, late 1970’s-early 1980’s Cinncinnati) in which people were trampled when the doors to the stadium were not opened fast enough for the crowd. This isn’t a new phenom, it happens when crowds stampede. Short of machine gun fire, this crowd wasn’t stopping.
And another reason to bolster my ‘buy presents before October’ philosophy.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 8:18 pm #
“What do you want to guess no one wants to talk about that?”
Yankees fans?
Comment by thorrr on 12/1 @ 8:26 pm #
Meya is correct in her argument of negligence. WalMart will cut a nice sized check to the victim’s estate and adjust their policies for crowd control accordingly. None of that excuses the crowd’s behavior but that’s not what the grounds of the victim’s potential litigation would be based on.
Our legal system’s deference for the individual is but one of the many things that makes this country great.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 8:30 pm #
The focus on black people rather than mob mentality is both edgy and desperado.
And indicative of a larger point. Come on, cynn, you have hung around here long enough you can figure it out if you try.
Comment by JD on 12/1 @ 8:32 pm #
Meya is a unit of stooopidity.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 8:33 pm #
Wow, is old sponge brain actually trying to make a coherent point there? Now he is a legal expert, must of felt up a legal secretary over the weekend.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 8:34 pm #
“I remember there was a concert (The Who, late 1970’s-early 1980’s Cinncinnati) in which people were trampled when the doors to the stadium were not opened fast enough for the crowd. This isn’t a new phenom, it happens when crowds stampede. Short of machine gun fire, this crowd wasn’t stopping.”
It spawned a task force report, with several recommendations besides “machine gun fire,” or even focusing on what “no one wants to talk about.” Its here:
http://www.crowdsafe.com/taskrpt/toc.html
Or we could just realize that there’s nothing to be done but having liberal statists banning popularity as part of their spread the misery project.
Comment by Tman on 12/1 @ 8:37 pm #
thorrr decides to make a run for the lead!
I love the stupidity of people saying “Wal-Mart” should be held responsible, as if it’s some guy who lives in a house who should pay a fine for having deliciously priced televisions.
It’s like this Deepak Chokra idiocy of blaming Mumbai on the war against terror. Stupid is a stupid does I guess.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 8:41 pm #
It spawned a task force report, with several recommendations besides “machine gun fire,†or even focusing on what “no one wants to talk about.â€Â
You know what else it spawned? A sense of outrage and hostility toward “long hairs” like me at the time, and it spawned a sense of shame in us, and a sense of a duty to not act like stoned ass idiots when we went to shows, or there wouldn’t be any more shows. The pinheads in Cinncinnati were raising hell at the venue and looking for some lawsuit money, but in other small cities across America us kids were shitting ourselves in fear we wouldn’t get concerts anymore, and we made sure we behaved ourselves.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 12/1 @ 8:45 pm #
Meya hates Wal mart, too. “If” he was in a union he wouldn’t have been trampled by those innocent tramplers. Damn Wal Mart and it’s damned non-union shops. They kill people.
JD, how you feeling?
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 8:47 pm #
Meya hates Wal mart, too.
Naturally. Proles shop there.
Comment by Carin on 12/1 @ 8:49 pm #
Someone correct me, but didn’t the Who concert have something to do with unassigned seating? And … didn’t those recommendations and action reports mean … no more open seating?
Honestly, I’m all for people figuring out ways to make sure no one else gets trampled, but what I’m REALLY interested in is seeing some of those assholes being held accountible.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 12/1 @ 8:49 pm #
Proles AND non-union. It’s the devil, I tell you. Well, if were one to believe in something so gauche as the concept of good/evil.
Comment by Carin on 12/1 @ 8:51 pm #
You are not preaching to the choir here….they put property before people….it’s their divine right.
Yea, that’s what we’re pissed about here. Those broken doors!
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 8:53 pm #
Someone correct me, but didn’t the Who concert have something to do with unassigned seating? And … didn’t those recommendations and action reports mean … no more open seating?
Yup, it was “concert seating” which meant the floor was first come, first serve, so you had a footrace to get to the front row. The solution was reserved seats, which meant that only rich kids could afford the front row. Funny how that works, huh?
Comment by Warren Bonesteel on 12/1 @ 8:55 pm #
It’s the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine…
…of course, I’m going to buy a 12 gage shotgun. Just to keep people from kicking my door down and trampling me.
Well, that makes more sense than some of the comments here.
The first group of people through the door we breaking and entering…That’s true of anyone who went through the door before the official start of business. Then, there’s destruction of private property… Negligent homicide… Violation of the civil rights of the victim… A lawyer or a decent prosecutor, even a cop, could come up with a longer list.
Whatever else anyone thinks about WalMart, the problem isn’t with WalMart. The problem is with individuals – and with a group of individuals – who individually, and arbitrarily, decided to break things and kill people.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 8:57 pm #
Proles AND non-union.
Also they sell guns, beef jerky, and NASCAR gear.
This would never happen at the local organic tofu coop and Prius dealership, you can bet.
Comment by alppuccino on 12/1 @ 8:59 pm #
This would never have happened if William Wallace and his crew had been waiting in the candy section with those big sharpened sticks.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 9:00 pm #
Well, I’ve certainly always found it to be the case that flashing my union card will stop a rampaging mob in its tracks.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 9:01 pm #
“Yup, it was “concert seating†which meant the floor was first come, first serve, so you had a footrace to get to the front row”
Not just the floor but the whole thing it seems like.
“The solution was reserved seats, which meant that only rich kids could afford the front row. ”
So the market sorts it out rather than stampedes. Liberal fascist scheme! Or they could sell the tickets at a different time and location to people who got into lines.
“Naturally. Proles shop there.”
I believe the word of the day is “savages,” or, for some, “spear chuckers.” Then there’s what Carin thinks “no one wants to talk about.”
Comment by lee on 12/1 @ 9:06 pm #
Says the environmentalist in crisis over climate change.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 12/1 @ 9:15 pm #
I disagree. I think they support this type of law because they really cannot comprehend the role of personal responsibility. Toss in their learned hatred of business, in particular Wal Mart, and they simply cannot help but to blame the company and demand government action.
They can’t blame the people who chose to be part of the mob, who chose to break through the door, who chose to trample the victim — it’s just not part of their mental make-up.
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 9:22 pm #
B. Moe: I get that there’s a subtext here. But you won’t destroy a subculture through language control; it feeds on itself. You can try to normalize it with legislation; it transcends that. You can try to re-ritualize it; it’s resistant and adaptive. Basically I guess I’m saying that our society loves the concept of subculture, but doesn’t know what to do with the monster. I was a punk; I sold out, too.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 9:24 pm #
“They can’t blame the people who chose to be part of the mob, who chose to break through the door, who chose to trample the victim  it’s just not part of their mental make-up.”
No need to be so pea-brained here. Its perfectly possible for people to be malicious as well as other people having safety responsibilities. Imagine an arson sets a hotel ablaze — a hotel with only a revolving door on on the front, not outward opening doors, which traps people inside. Do we learn a lesson from that? Learn about safety features we should hotels responsible for installing? Or just lay the blame on the arson, and let people die, knowing where the blame went?
Comment by JohnAnnArbor on 12/1 @ 9:29 pm #
Buildings can burn accidentally, meya.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 9:30 pm #
they simply cannot help but to blame the company and demand government action.
Yes. Witness meya’s 180 degree shift from “EEEEEEEVUL WALMART ordered the poor guard to open the doors” to “EEEEEEEVUL WALMART ordered the poor guard to block the doors”. It’s clear that she’s determined to blame it on Walmart, no matter what. If a freakin’ meteor had hit the parking lot, it’d still be Walmart’s fault. See also: Bush Derangement Syndrome.
They can’t blame the people who chose to be part of the mob
Yep. Because expecting black people to behave like civilized human beings is, like, racist, man.
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 9:30 pm #
Sorry, I just can’t lay the blame at WalMart’s feet. Simple social convention would dictate that in non-emergency situations, we behave orderly. You are likely too young to remember duck and cover. Or even a fire drill.
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 9:36 pm #
“Yep. Because expecting black people to behave like civilized human beings is, like, racist, man.”
Would you please attach your name and home address to subsequent comments, plsnthx.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 9:39 pm #
Would you please attach your name and home address to subsequent comments, plsnthx.
Would you please suck my dick, plsnthx.
Comment by lee on 12/1 @ 9:39 pm #
Fire sale safety laws?
My state passed a law that the Governator vetoed, banning driving with a pet in your lap.
No, really…
See, even Arnold gets it. Government can’t envision every laps of common sense, and it’s immoral for government to trade everyone’s liberty for ridicules protections.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 12/1 @ 9:39 pm #
Of course — if only Wal Mart had set up a continuous deep-space watch!
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 9:40 pm #
That’d be part of their union contract, Rob. For sure.
Comment by maggie katzen on 12/1 @ 9:41 pm #
my lap is very nonsensical. just for the record.
Comment by lee on 12/1 @ 9:41 pm #
ridiculous even…
Comment by maggie katzen on 12/1 @ 9:42 pm #
sorry, lee. your typo really amused me.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 9:46 pm #
“Buildings can burn accidentally, meya.”
Yup. But when there’s malice, does that absolve us of having safety requirements in those situations?
“Witness meya’s 180 degree shift from “EEEEEEEVUL WALMART ordered the poor guard to open the doors†to “EEEEEEEVUL WALMART ordered the poor guard to block the doorsâ€Â.”
180? I read an original report that was incorrect. You wanna tell me the NYSlimes is lying. It says he was there holding the door closed, you can see how initial reports could say he was opening them, can’t you?
Comment by lee on 12/1 @ 9:47 pm #
I thought it was my clever play on; “laps of common sense”. ;)
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 9:47 pm #
When you find it, Spies, let me know.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 9:48 pm #
When you find it, Spies, let me know.
When you give up the soft bigotry of low expectations, let me know.
Comment by maggie katzen on 12/1 @ 9:50 pm #
ooooooh, prolly. I just went with the default “typical man got it wrong” option. Gotta shut that down now that the weekend’s over, the lights are up and the house is the most orderly it’s been since, well, ever.
Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 12/1 @ 9:54 pm #
I was once part of a big crowd, surging and angrily trying to get through a small passageway. I didn’t like it, and I got out of it as quickly as I could.
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 9:56 pm #
Same thing with me; it was multiple birth.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 9:57 pm #
People trying to escape a burning building does not equal people trying to buy a cheap tv. Protecting paying customers from outside dangers is not the same as building an idiot proof store.
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 10:01 pm #
Like I said, it was a multiple birth.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 10:03 pm #
I get that there’s a subtext here. But you won’t destroy a subculture through language control; it feeds on itself. You can try to normalize it with legislation; it transcends that. You can try to re-ritualize it; it’s resistant and adaptive.
What I am talking about is how some subcultures are protected. If this had been a bunch of rich girls at some Rodeo Drive boutique, do you think the story would be playing like this?
Comment by Rob Crawford on 12/1 @ 10:03 pm #
Why even bother arguing with the morons? They’re incapable of doing anything but blaming Wal Mart. They’ll go to any length to come up with a rationale, no matter how nonsensical. They simply cannot accept that the people in that mob are fully human, fully responsible for their own actions.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 10:10 pm #
Why even bother arguing with the morons?
Because I agree with everybody else. D’uh!
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 10:12 pm #
“They simply cannot accept that the people in that mob are fully human, fully responsible for their own actions.”
Would it help you if it didn’t get called “blame” since, it seems like there can be only one set of people having blame here? Like, if we just said that there are things that walmart should or should not have done when handling that crowd? Does that help you to understand the fact that even if there was malice and intentional action by some people, that we still may want to have safety requirements or other regulations on yet other parties?
I think the bank robber example someone used before was great, and really helps to capture it. There are things banks can do to improve the safety of their employees, even in the face of robbers who shoot those employees.
Comment by Ric Locke on 12/1 @ 10:16 pm #
#105 cynn, I’m really sorry it’s come to this. But it’s an inevitable result of policy.
Consider Cynthia McKinney. Consider William Jefferson. Consider Rep. Rangel, who apparently will not be dislodged from the chairmanship of Ways&Means. The message is clear: He’s supposed to be stupid and venal. He’s a black Democrat.
Now recall that for at least a year, any criticism — in fact, anything less than fawning hero-worship — of Barack (May His Holy Name Be Praised, Hosannah) Obama was racist. That’s is a blank check, you know. Spies, Brigands & Pirates is a racist because of his criticism of Barack (Angels Sing His Praises, Halleluja) Obama. Further accusations of racism are a waste of time. Once you’ve nuked something, hand grenades are simply redundant.
The attitude is becoming more general than any person of goodwill could possibly like. People I thought had been stifled, people I thought had been shamed into keeping their attitudes to themselves and going along in public, are starting to tell those jokes again. I don’t see that changing in the near future, given continuation of present policies. If, as I unfortunately expect, Obama turns out to be an incompetent manager, I also expect four years of circumlocution around “well, of course, you’ve got to expect that, he’s black” and resultant disasters.
In this case, the occasional nasty occurrence consequent upon crowd behavior cannot and should not be laid upon “the blacks”, because crowds sometimes turn into mobs, and mobs act like that, regardless of sex (or sexual preference), race, creed, color, or country of national origin. But, e.g., meya’s insistence that all the fault is Wal*Mart’s does just the opposite of what meya intends, because it is patently just as much prejudgement as any other bigotry — and once you’ve dropped the R-bomb, further applications just make the rubble bounce.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 10:16 pm #
As far as I know, none of the tellers at my bank, or any other bank in my town, are behind bullet-proof glass. Are yours, meya? If they are not, are you going to start advocating they install them before someone gets killed?
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 10:17 pm #
Since I am one of the “morons,” I will not argue further with you. Good night, sir or madam.
Comment by EW on 12/1 @ 10:23 pm #
These are the kind of things that happen at Wal-mart, people die. The only difference was that this time it was direct. Most of the time they open a new store and kill off every mom and pop business around. The liberal illuminati might want to boost the economy like every one else but wal-mart is not the way! Incidents like this prove it!
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 10:26 pm #
Ric: sorry, it’s going to take me tomorrow to express how pissed this makes me.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 10:27 pm #
Since there appears to be some misunderstanding here, I don’t think that black people are any more likely to form an unruly mob than white people.
I was being sarcastic toward those who would place the blame on Walmart rather than the unruly mob itself.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 12/1 @ 10:29 pm #
What about cashiers in supermarkets? And just what do you do with the one cashier who gets to watch the self-checkout lanes?
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 10:29 pm #
I’ll also add that the only time I’ve been in a situation that was remotely similar to this, the angry and unruly mob was made up almost entirely of white people.
Comment by cynn on 12/1 @ 10:33 pm #
Fuck you, Spies. In my crowd that’s called trunking the obvious.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 10:34 pm #
cynn: I don’t give a shit what you and “your crowd” think about this, or any other subject.
Sorry.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 10:34 pm #
Let me put it another way, if this had been a mob of angry Mormons stampeding some poor poll worker in their race to trample the civil rights of gay people, would you be blaming the local election board?
Comment by Rob Crawford on 12/1 @ 10:37 pm #
Ditto — and I think as little of those people as I do of this mob. It has nothing to do with skin color, economic class, or educational level — it has do to with making the choices that create a crushing mob. It has to do with being so amoral as to place your convenience over the safety and lives of others.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 10:38 pm #
If a horde of drunken used car salesmen steamrollered a greenskeeper trying to get choice viewing spots at the Masters, would you blame Augusta National?
Er, strike that, of course you would. Never mind.
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 10:41 pm #
We don’t have black people where I live. We passed laws against it for our safety. Have you considered that Meya? Jeff mentioned it in the post and you have not yet discussed it.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 10:42 pm #
“If, as I unfortunately expect, Obama turns out to be an incompetent manager, I also expect four years of circumlocution around “well, of course, you’ve got to expect that, he’s black†and resultant disasters.”
I’ll be content to blame his white half if he has the same approval as our current president. You know, to overcome the ‘inevitable result of policy.’
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 10:44 pm #
I have yet to see a mob of red necks trample workers at Bass Pro Shops/Outdoor World or Cabelas.
Comment by Baghdad Dewclaw on 12/1 @ 10:49 pm #
#128
That how long it’s going to take for you to sober up?
Just askin’….
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 10:49 pm #
“As far as I know, none of the tellers at my bank, or any other bank in my town, are behind bullet-proof glass. Are yours, meya? If they are not, are you going to start advocating they install them before someone gets killed?”
I’ve been to some. I’ve also seen bullet proof glass in gas stations and a KFC. I don’t mean to argue whats the best or proper way to protect bank employees. But you do get that there are smart things and there are dumb things the bank can do, and we want them to be doing the former, even though we clearly know the blame is on the bank robber. Actually we want to do it because of the bank robbers
Comment by lee on 12/1 @ 11:01 pm #
HA! I predicted this to my girlfriend a few days ago. I would bet a Benjamin when it becomes apparent Obama isn’t able to change anything for the black community except bring pandering to a whole new level, he will be denounced as half white, and we will still be waiting for our first black president.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 11:07 pm #
But you do get that there are smart things and there are dumb things the bank can do, and we want them to be doing the former, even though we clearly know the blame is on the bank robber. Actually we want to do it because of the bank robbers
So I expect you to be writing your congressman demanding legislation mandating bullet-proof booths for all bank tellers.
Or is someone going to have to die first?
Comment by daleyrocks on 12/1 @ 11:11 pm #
Or is someone going to have to die first?
One senseless death would be too many!!!!!!
Comment by Ric Locke on 12/1 @ 11:12 pm #
#128 cynn, perhaps you and I could start a club. It’s just that, given my position in life/this country, I’ve been seeing it coming for years; the present situation has just brought it to a head. For the record, I consider it nothing less than disastrous.
Meya: Of course Wal*Mart could take precautions. Why should they?
Have a look at this picture. It’s 1921 — the universal use of near-bulletproof “store window plate” glass was a decade or more in the future. The thin object off to the right is a gun, a real one. But in 1921, there was nobody in Washington, D.C., who was entitled to smash store windows and carry stuff off because they were –. And everything in the store was cheaper, at least partly because precautions didn’t have to be taken against people who were entitled to smash the window and steal stuff.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by JD on 12/1 @ 11:13 pm #
I blame Chimpy McHitlerburton. And Sam Walton. And, Kyoto.
Comment by lee on 12/1 @ 11:13 pm #
All businesses B Moe. Don’t forget KFC.
Actually, it might be best if all citizens wore Kevlar bullet proof vests. Otta be a law. I mean, HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO DIE!!!
Comment by JD on 12/1 @ 11:19 pm #
Damn you Sam Walton. Damn you to hell. Why do you kill people?
OI – doing better. Still feel like a truck drove over my gut. But, better.
Comment by JD on 12/1 @ 11:25 pm #
Oh, and meya is slaughtering sniffles/alphie/parsnip for the most mendoucheous asshat of the thread award. parsnip is crying no lo contendre right about now.
Comment by Darleen on 12/1 @ 11:35 pm #
meya
how do you feel about the white mobs who lynched African Americans? Do they get the same sympathy?
Mobs are mobs and they rarely act either rationally or responsibly. That’s why the law must make examples of those that participate in mob violence, to make it less attractive for the next group that feels it has the right of mindless violence to satisfy a need.
Comment by lee on 12/1 @ 11:38 pm #
Wow. Now that is a unique specimen right there.
Recognition of that astounding performance requires uncommon perseverance and the density of iridium. Truly noteworthy for hitting all the various elements important to the Progressive herd animal.
Well done meya, you have achieved the gutter.
Comment by meya on 12/1 @ 11:47 pm #
“how do you feel about the white mobs who lynched African Americans? Do they get the same sympathy?”
Like I said before, please don’t mistake the fact that walmart can and should do things to protect its workers with sympathy for the stampede. People don’t sympathize with terrorists when they say that we should take steps to protect people from them, say by allowing pilots to be armed. People dont sympathize with bank robbers when they say that banks should take steps to protect the safety of workers, etc…
I don’t know why this is so hard for seemingly intelligent people to grasp.
“That’s why the law must make examples of those that participate in mob violence, to make it less attractive for the next group that feels it has the right of mindless violence to satisfy a need.”
Indeed. For me, justice would do. That’s probably what you mean by “mak[ing] examples” isn’t it?
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 11:50 pm #
Nah, I think meya is just a bit confused. I agree with her that businesses need to take reasonable steps to protect its customers against foreseeable dangers, I just disagree with the government defining the dangers and mandating the steps. I don’t see putting meya in the same class as those other knuckleheads, at least she is trying.
Comment by Pablo on 12/1 @ 11:51 pm #
There are very few problems that can’t be solved with high explosives.
Comment by B Moe on 12/1 @ 11:53 pm #
People don’t sympathize with terrorists when they say that we should take steps to protect people from them, say by allowing pilots to be armed.
See, now if you are advocating armed Wal-Mart employees I would be all for that.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/1 @ 11:56 pm #
that walmart can and should do things to protect its workers
What?
Be specific.
Comment by lee on 12/1 @ 11:59 pm #
OK, I thought it was a bit unfair too, but not much. I suspect meya doesn’t give a shit either way, she is just agitating.
You can show me meya. Tell me specifically what this legislation you would get behind would do.
I armed guard per 10 customers for stores that do sales events? What? What do you want changed that Wal-Mart isn’t already going to do because of this event?
Comment by geoffb on 12/2 @ 12:00 am #
For quite awhile I considered that the Democrats were doing this on purpose, selecting only the not too bright and obviously corrupt as candidates, as a underhanded form of racism. A feature of their Party system.
With the rise of the internet making it easier to notice more politicians I started to see it as an inevitable bug of the way that Party runs itself. The “Machine Politics” virus is all through their Party at all levels. They have an over abundance of stupid, corrupt people of all races and creeds in their Party structure.
Obama however may make the feature idea more plausible again. Consider what would have been the effect on the integration of Major League Baseball if Branch Rickey had brought in, instead of Jackie Robinson, a player with little skill or experience, one who had a thin skin and big chip on his shoulder. That would have been a way to kill the idea of integrating the sport.
Obama will be the exemplar whether he wants to be or not. I pray he finds his bearings and succeeds in having a normal reasonably well run Presidency. I fear however, from all that has been shown about his entire life, that he and we are in for a rough ride. Howard Dean and the Chi-town mob are not Branch Rickey.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/2 @ 12:08 am #
What?
Be specific.
Oh, and meya? Be sure that your solution:
a) prevents large numbers of people from entering the store (as in this case)
b) doesn’t prevent large numbers of people from exiting the store (as would be the case in a fire or a terrorist attack).
Comment by Pablo on 12/2 @ 12:36 am #
B Moe, you’re banking in the right neighborhoods. Them greedy moneychangers know where they need to put the bulletproof glass, and they do it. But only to protect the filthy lucre, of course, because they don’t have unions to make them do it for the right reasons.
Comment by lee on 12/2 @ 12:49 am #
The most dangerous job in the world is late night 7-11 clerk. How can we make those convenience store people safe?
Comment by lee on 12/2 @ 12:50 am #
Are 7-11’s union?
That would probably take care of it…
Comment by parsnip on 12/2 @ 12:52 am #
People like meya and parsnip argue for such stupid laws solely because their political “opponents†find them incredibly intrusive.
Just asking for a little consistency from the bomb the whole world crowd.
Let’s bankrupt our country chasing phantom weapons in the Middle East, but not a dime to protect shoppers here at home.
I think if the right ever developed a sense of irony, it would simply shrink to a single point and then vanish altogether in a tiny puff of smoke.
Comment by lee on 12/2 @ 12:59 am #
So, you have nothing specific either, huh?
Other than throw some of MY dimes at it of course. You do understand the role of government, don’t you?
Comment by B Moe on 12/2 @ 1:15 am #
Just asking for a little consistency from the bomb the whole world crowd.
Let’s bankrupt our country chasing phantom weapons in the Middle East, but not a dime to protect shoppers here at home.
So what is your latest plan, alphie? 767-proof glass windows around all our skyscrapers?
Comment by Mark A. Flacy on 12/2 @ 1:26 am #
No, let’s bankrupt our country with Social Security and Medicaid.
Comment by Pablo on 12/2 @ 1:27 am #
Then you should be asking them. If you add the shehada as a signature tag to your posts, you’ll probably get more cooperation.
Comment by Pablo on 12/2 @ 1:28 am #
Yeah, that’s the problem with pw. No sense of irony.
Comment by New CEO of WalMart on 12/2 @ 2:33 am #
Dear White redumblicans,
A good percentage of our employees and customers are Americans of African descent. We never anticipated any employee, whether Anglo, African, Asian, Hispanic or any other ethnicity, could possibly lose his or her life simply by unlocking the door of one of our stores. None of our employees, from the newest hire to the most tenured, whether representing the ranks of our management or from our unionized associates, believe that anyone should lose their life when carrying out any required task due to their employment at WalMart.
You people are fuckin’ assholes. We at WalMart are not.
WalMart will examine and change policies as a result of this tragedy. WalMart will also offer a fair monetary settlement to the family of the victim of this tragedy. No amount of money can or ever will replace the value of a human life, but such action, we hope, will be viewed as reflective of the deep regret all our employees feel and reflective of WalMart’s sense of responsibility as a corporate citizen of the United States of America.
Sincerely,
Alfred S. Greedweevil
Comment by SteveG on 12/2 @ 3:04 am #
All the precautions drive the price to the consumer up and we all pay more because some people have no sense of decency. It used to be easier and cheaper for people to shame and shun the dipshits who ruin things for the rest of us.
Now we get sued for saying “dipshit” instead. The people holding the sale get sued. Morons who don’t know how to behave get rewarded for bad behavior… or at least have all the consequences for their behavior mitigated… mitigated in the sense of all their consequences being absorbed by Walmart and then passed on to us.
One other scenario… mom and pop have a sale. Pop is opening the door with his helper Xavi, but then in the course of opening the door, Xavi tries to hold the door closed and protect himself and pop because the mob is rushing the door too fast. Xavi gets knocked to the ground and stiff armed back down when he tries to fight to his feet. Xavi is trampled to death.
Under the new Walmart incident inspired rules, pop better be the one who dies. Because xavi’s death is his financial responsibility. Walmart can use its volume to spread its security costs around into other less energetic neighborhoods, pop cannot. Legal nonsense like taxes and regulation kill more mom and pop businesses than WalMart ever could.
On a side note I want to make sure WalMart has to put a program for the stompers.. their self esteem may be compromised and shame and remorse might begin to seep in. Walmart should be required to provide counseling to the mob and maybe set up a nice first ten people through this door get a free flat screen TV promotion…. but open the door on to a 300 foot greased slip and slide with a real nice elevation drop with the ten TV’s set up at the bottom like bowling pins. “That’s a spare… no TV for you…. nice forehead gash though.”
“oops, concussion on lane three with loss of front teeth” Maybe theyll learn to watch their step and not prize “things” that they might buy cheap more than life.
I doubt it though because obviously there is a culture here that values $200 off on a TV more than the life of some guy who is facilitating their purchase…
Comment by J."Trashman" Peden on 12/2 @ 4:59 am #
pstt…thor’s talking in “his” sleep…now…shhhh
s
Comment by JHoward on 12/2 @ 6:30 am #
Among plenteous stupid posts from the usual suspects, #78 is the stupidest post in the thread. Thought I’d point that out. It conflates policy with principle, a common and wholly expected nannystatist failing: It must be right. We just pulled it off.
I suspect parody. One must. Please.
Comment by meya on 12/2 @ 7:05 am #
“Be specific.”
Why do I have to be specific? There’s people out there that are knowledgeable about this. All I think is they should be doing their jobs more. But there are some quick thoughts, all of which have their problems: Have people shop online. Or by mail. Or by phone. Or organize the crowd outside the store so they form into a line, so people know when they have the right to come in. Get stronger doors. Get more security. Set up your sale so it doesn’t all start at once and people have no incentive to all rush in at the same time. Not that hard to reduce the mania and still have a sale.
There’s lots of things that can be done. Whether they work or not is up to an expert. I’m just concerned that we should be doing them, and that doing them doesn’t absolve anyone of blame, rather we do it because of those people.
Comment by Mossberg500 on 12/2 @ 7:20 am #
Asking people to be responsible and respectful is sooooooo quaint! There ought to be a law.
Comment by Ric Locke on 12/2 @ 7:44 am #
No, meya. There are not “a lot of things that can be done”, as you define it. There are only a few, all of them fall into the category of “regimentation”, and none of them will work.
There exists a whole complex of concepts radiating out from the word “civilization”, which has its roots in Latin civus, “city”. All of them refer to behavior standards which are required if human beings are to live in large groups. Living in large groups confers some big advantages — it makes trade, both commercial and social, enormously easier, which promotes an increase of wealth for everybody concerned. But those behavior standards are not “natural”. They have to be learned, and conforming to them is a strain, so they have to be enforced. Some of the really gross violations are the proper subject of armed force and therefore of Law, but all of the important ones are too subtle for such a blunt instrument; the citizens have to teach them to and enforce them against one another, and the most important tool for that enforcement is shaming and ridicule. Act civilized, not like a damn ape scrambling for bananas.
If we can and will use the proper tools, we can maintain a civilization. If we cannot maintain a civilization, we cannot enjoy the fruits of civilization — and things like flush toilets and the Internet are fruits, products, of civilization, not the thing itself. Civilization is the sum of civilized behavior, and the wealth and comfort that results emerges from it, not the other way round.
You confess, yourself, that you don’t know what can be done, but it’s clear from your posts that you are envisioning various changes on barriers, diversions, and regimentation. Such measures are not “civilized” — they do not encourage or promote the kind of behavior necessary to maintain civilization; they do not represent civility. What does need to be done is a version of teaching. We need to be contemptuous of that mob; we need to sneer at them for acting like a pack of wild animals rather than civilized human beings. We need to shame them. Some of them will be pushed in the direction of civilized behavior, and enough repetitions of the lesson (many by example, rather than simple experience) will result in fewer such incidents, because the people who might form a mob will be too ashamed to do so and the unembarrassible remainder can properly be addressed by force. That’s how civilized people do it.
But it’s a slow process that doesn’t produce immediate results, isn’t it? Which makes you, and a lot of people, impatient. We’ve got to do something right away! The problem being that there isn’t anything that can be done right away that is civilized. Anything we can do right now is basically an elaboration of the way we handle zoo animals, and pushes us farther away from civil behavior — which will result in more mob scenes in the future, not fewer. It’s mobs that are “natural”, meya. Civilized behavior is as artificial as a plastic pomegranite.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Mossberg500 on 12/2 @ 7:54 am #
Stronger doors! Hahahahahaha!
How about we legislate smarter patrons? Anyone? Bueller?
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/2 @ 7:57 am #
Why do I have to be specific?
Ric has already answered this, but one thing I would add to his excellent summary is that you’re advocating the FORCE OF LAW make people “do their jobs more”, whatever the fuck that means. Laws must be specific if they are to be enforced.
It’s quite clear that you’re determined to make this somehow Walmart’s fault.
It isn’t.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/2 @ 7:59 am #
Stronger doors! Hahahahahaha!
Ha! I missed that one.
Yes, let’s have “stronger doors” so the crowd can crush each other, rather than bursting through and crushing the security guards.
I know, let’s require that every retail establishment be clad in battleship armor!
Jeezus Christ.
Comment by Salt Lick on 12/2 @ 8:00 am #
We need to shame them. … That’s how civilized people do it.
Then we are well and truly f*cked. Because shame has become our society’s moral appendix.
Comment by alppuccino on 12/2 @ 8:00 am #
It was asked in an earlier thread what the election has to do with this trampling.
This election was an organized and calculating creation of a mob. A mob does not care about principles or issues. It hears a noise and runs away. Or it smells bbq and stampedes towards the source. Charisma is all a mob needs to gain momentum and then people get trampled.
I still vote for the pointy sticks.
Comment by Salt Lick on 12/2 @ 8:01 am #
And I’m not disagreeing with you, Ric, I just see no way to implement the solution.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 12/2 @ 8:02 am #
I still vote for the pointy sticks.
Pikemen would definitely help. Also caltrops and a moat. Maybe a few guys stationed on the roof with cauldrons of boiling oil (could economize here by using the waste oil from a neighboring fast food restaurant) or the old standby, molten lead (more expensive up front, but easier to reuse later).
Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/2 @ 8:02 am #
I think I might need an interpreter.
Comment by Mossberg500 on 12/2 @ 8:02 am #
Blue Ribbon Commission time! We’ll get the best and the brightest to solve the problem. That always works, doesn’t it?
Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/2 @ 8:07 am #
I’m with Jeff, though: root causes, man. If having doorbuster sales caused this guy’s death, then doorbuster sales must be outlawed. NO MORE!
People will just have to shop amazon.com, instead. At least that way, no one will get hurt.
While we’re at it, we should just outlaw any kind of event that requires lots of people getting together in one place, because bad things can result from those situations. Next year’s Thanksgiving Day Parade is hereby canceled, as are all sporting events except swimming and greco-roman wrestling; those never draw a crowd.
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Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/2 @ 8:16 am #
Oh, and bulletproof windows in the convenience stores were not installed in anticipation of people robbing the store at gunpoint, they were installed after a whole bunch of robberies and shootings had occurred. You’re wanting to penalize Wal-Mart for failing to safeguard against something that had yet to happen at their stores? When are the convenience stores going to go to steel-lined cashier enclosures in anticipation of the robbers armed with linear shaped charge or RPG launchers?
I’m betting I can take out one of those windows with some LSC.
Comment by Mossberg500 on 12/2 @ 8:20 am #
Doorbuster Bill
Comment by Mossberg500 on 12/2 @ 8:49 am #
Wow, I need to wake up before posting.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 12/2 @ 9:05 am #
SBP, where have you been? Vague laws are all the rage now, because it makes it so much easier to politicize them.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 12/2 @ 9:09 am #
Well if you believe the statement “white greed runs a world in need” then you can understand perfectly what meya is getting at. The mob can not be blamed for its own actions. Wal-mart, represented by a fat white guy smoking a cigar, is the villain. He “ordered” the sale, he “ordered” the employee, he “ordered” the conditions that set up huge black friday sales. All for an evil “profit” to feed his greed. His behavior must be legislated to stop this brutality from occuring again.
Just imagine looking at the world with a point of view generated by watching the TV show Captain Planet.
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/2 @ 9:17 am #
Slart–
Suddenly they’re big fans of preemptive strikes.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 12/2 @ 9:18 am #
Don’t forget the top hat and spats!
Comment by Mr. Pink on 12/2 @ 9:28 am #
Rob I was thinking more along the lines of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoggish_Greedly#Hoggish_Greedly
Comment by Roland THTG on 12/2 @ 9:33 am #
Oh, and bulletproof windows in the convenience stores were not installed in anticipation of people robbing the store at gunpoint, they were installed after a whole bunch of robberies and shootings had occurred. You’re wanting to penalize Wal-Mart for failing to safeguard against something that had yet to happen at their stores? When are the convenience stores going to go to steel-lined cashier enclosures in anticipation of the robbers armed with linear shaped charge or RPG launchers?
Stopped at a beer hut in North MKE one day. One barred door, all the windows had bars. Grab a box of suds and went to pay. The cashier is inside a concrete block cube with BP glass and one of those little grills you talk thru, like at the old movie house. You puts your cash in a stainless steel drawer. Very awesome.
Left my Sig at home, felt underdressed.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 12/2 @ 9:34 am #
Oh, God, Mr. Pink — I’m glad I never saw that PoS cartoon.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 12/2 @ 9:49 am #
I watched it in my younger days. I could smell the bullshit even at a young age. Probably helped though that when I got suspended(alot) from school my dad would make me work all day at his construction job digging ditches and he would always have Rush on in his car.
Comment by JHoward on 12/2 @ 9:50 am #
Hilarious. You must be great fun at parties, throwing yourself to the ground singlehandedly and administering sleeper holds about your own head, neck, shoulders, head and neck.
Comment by JHoward on 12/2 @ 10:05 am #
I got one for you, meya: Darwinianism. The survival of the species depends on learning how to survive. Anything much beyond outlawing murder, theft and fraud so as to establish a civilization defeats such and even those essentials can be easily called into question. This nation appears to have be based on not much other than that, bless its originalist texture and hue.
That the secular humanists on the left conflict this basic truth prolly speaks to all that cognitive dissonance: The left erects entire facades and edifices to the Universal Eternal Truth of there being no truth except what it can induce out of a simple mob, emotionally, reflexively, opportunistically, and parasitically, usually in defiance of values and principles that became values and principles, wait for it, because they bloody worked. And work.
But, you know, Change and Hope and Progress and all that other bullshit. Talk about mindless malcontented dreamers.
Comment by B Moe on 12/2 @ 10:18 am #
@175 Ric once again spells out exactly what I have been fumbling around about. I would mention: notice how many people who bristle at the notion of referring to the mob as savages or animals are also calling for corrals and holding pens, chutes and herders to deal with the next event.
Comment by geoffb on 12/2 @ 10:36 am #
The learning of civilized behavior begins with the parents teaching, lovingly but firmly teaching their children to behave. We are not born with civilized behavior built in nor is it an imprint we pick up with out effort. It is the result of the “labor of love” of parents everywhere.
There are other contributors, relatives, neighbors, teachers, mentors, godfathers and godmothers, but the parents must start the process and continue to reinforce the good lessons the child learns from the others.
The natural state of humans with out the inculcation of civilized behavior is very like the one portrayed in Lord of the Flies by William Golding. Sociopaths all, we are born. Rule by the biggest, strongest, most charismatic, most amoral, is natural. Thugs ‘R Us, unless we all work at it every generation.
Civilization is a “man made” product that must be rebuilt with each generation and maintained continuously. It usually falls when a generation starts believing that civilized behavior is the “natural” state and so no effort is required to keep it. Once the work of maintaining it ceases, civilization will soon cease. It is a cycle that has happened many times.
Comment by B Moe on 12/2 @ 10:47 am #
Here would probably be a good place for meya to start developing and implementing her notions
http://www.grandin.com/references/design.loading.facilities.holding.pens.html
Comment by Sdferr on 12/2 @ 10:52 am #
Corrals, holding pens and chutes can — paradoxically — actually lead to further crush injuries and death, and that is part of what makes the anticipation of events like this so difficult. It all depends on the size and momentum of the, as yet, unorganized crowd forming to “enter” the corral, pen, chute or what have you. Hard barriers, choke points, walls, doors, fences, railings and the like are almost always involved as factors in deaths like this one, which is only to say “compression asphyxia” (though the actual circumstances of this event have been so very poorly investigated by the police and even more poorly reported in the press, I’m still uncertain what happened, who was at fault and who was not.)
This almost looks like a species of “emergent order” — though not for a good purpose obviously — an emergent order of tremendous physical force unwilled as such, but nevertheless a phenomenon no-one planned, no-one directed, no-one designed, no-one anticipated or indeed, for any of those descriptors, could have possibly planned, directed, designed, or anticipated. It may have taken thousands of inputs from thousands of individuals, each playing their unknowing roles utterly disconnected from one another with no prior knowledge of the role they each played to get this result. And yet we demand assignment of responsibility, now, if not sooner.
Which isn’t to say that another sort of order coming to be wasn’t possible. Another order most certainly was possible, as everyone here has easily imagined. But the origins of that hypothetical order, as geoffb has noted just now, in the lessons of parents and teachers and peers, is quite remote from this event (and any future event like this) and only reached as a cause through a long and carefully constructed process.
Comment by MAJ (P) John on 12/2 @ 11:10 am #
“Just imagine looking at the world with a point of view generated by watching the TV show Captain Planet.”
Is death an alternative?
Comment by Mr. Pink on 12/2 @ 11:15 am #
The people that grew up watching Captain Planet are now old enough to vote John. Sorry :(
Comment by Dave in SoCal on 12/2 @ 12:04 pm #
There are very few problems that can’t be solved with high explosives.
“Oh, it’s gonna take a lot of fireworks to clean up this mess.”
– Homer Simpson
Comment by Carin (at work) on 12/2 @ 12:09 pm #
There’s lots of things that can be done. Whether they work or not is up to an expert. I’m just
I’m no expert, but I say if another dude gets crushed, it didn’t work.
Comment by B Moe on 12/2 @ 12:16 pm #
Corrals, holding pens and chutes can  paradoxically  actually lead to further crush injuries and death, and that is part of what makes the anticipation of events like this so difficult. It all depends on the size and momentum of the, as yet, unorganized crowd forming to “enter†the corral, pen, chute or what have you.
Which is why I also mentioned herders. To make sure everyone goes were they are supposed to and takes their time, you need to have herders. Big guys with dogs and cattle prods.
Yeah, that will work.
Comment by Dread Cthulhu on 12/2 @ 12:29 pm #
And firehoses, B Moe… we *dasn’t* forgets the firehoses…
Comment by Sdferr on 12/2 @ 12:36 pm #
oh, and the “everywhere and always” part too, mustn’t leave that out.
Comment by geoffb on 12/2 @ 2:39 pm #
Trying to make a Wal-Mart resemble some kind of re-education camp. All that is needed now is cattle cars to bring the “shoppers” into the holding pens before the chutes are opened.
Comment by Sdferr on 12/2 @ 2:47 pm #
In a weird sense, geoffb, cattle cars are exactly the point. In order to positively prevent any possible crowd behavior resulting in crush injury or death, you have to prevent the formation of a “herd” or crowd from the get go. Hence, cattle cars, where the operator has control over the number, direction and rate of introduction of the animals into the system.
Which is why ex post rationalizations regarding human beings are just, y’know, crazy.
Comment by B Moe on 12/2 @ 2:58 pm #
In order to positively prevent any possible crowd behavior resulting in crush injury or death, you have to prevent the formation of a “herd†or crowd from the get go.
So what you are saying is, we need to form some sort of Anti-ACORN to reorganize these communities after the elections?
Comment by Sdferr on 12/2 @ 3:04 pm #
Heh. Or maybe
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