November 6, 2008

Outlaw Speak

In response to my (evidently controversial) post yesterday on the dangers of what I take to be false nobility — and Patterico’s many responses to said post — Cranky Conservative writes:

In light of what’s happened and, more importantly, in light of the important issues we’ll be facing in the near future, can we just say that a full-bore, nasty, intramural debate over whether or not we should say that Obama is a nice guy is probably damned near the bottom of the list of priorities?

Respectfully — and forcefully — I am going to disagree.

Patterico has today created a new thread decrying my outragous treatment of his honor (to which I respond, sorry — I just don’t believe Patterico thinks a mau-mauing protege of domestic terrorists, noted anti-semites and black supremacists, a host of radicals and avowed Marxists, and those who run the hotbed of corruption that is Chicago politics, is “good man”; instead, I believe Patterico determined beforehand that if Obama won, he’d show how classy he is — and how essentially kind are conservatives — by posting such nonsense. But as I said in my original post on the subject, there’s a difference between graciousness and praise — and I continue to believe that Patterico, for all his subsequent denials, realizes this). So I have no interest in addressing any of that beyond how I’ve already done so.

Instead, I want to talk more generally about why I believe, pace Cranky Conservative, that “whether or not we should say that Obama is a nice guy” is vitally important — and that, far from being “damned near the bottom of the list of priorities,” it speaks to something classical liberals need to put at the top of their priority list: namely, a refusal to allow that tactics of progressives to pass unchallenged or even to be celebrated.

In an political environment wherein the left has managed to turn the introduction of inconvenient facts into “smears” or “racism,” this willingness, on the part of some conservatives, to believe themselves capable of seizing the moral high ground by essentially giving cover to the demonstrably bad by allowing that it is merely “misguided,” is yet another step toward the very kind of partisan pragmatism that has cost Republicans so dearly, and that, even more troubling, has served to devalue language and further institutionalize a dangerous idea of how interpretation works.

When Bill Bennett was attacked as a racist, many conservatives were quick to get out in front of the issue and suggest that, while they didn’t believe Bennett to be a racist, he was reckless nevertheless in allowing himself to be depicted that way by opportunistic progressives. And it was at that point that they ceded greater control of language to those who seek to use it dishonestly and cynically as a bludgeon, and in doing so, sent the signal that such was an effective way to control conservative speech. Bennett, you’ll recall, went out of his way to make clear his intent. But we were told that others might misinterpret that intent, and so Bennett was to blame for putting himself in that position.

The proper answer, of course, was to point out the entirety of Bennett’s comments, note that there was nothing racist about them, and to insist that those who might be offended by those comments learn to read for comprehension and in context. Period. No excuses, no concessions. Bennett meant what he meant, and what he meant was clear to anyone who bothered to work through his argument.

Don’t want to be offended? Learn to interpret properly.

Here, similarly, progressives — who ran a thuggish campaign that consisted of truth squads, attempts to have advertising removed, the personal and very public destruction of private citizens (from Joe the Plumber to Trig Palin) — can take from “high minded” posts like Patterico’s the message that they can always count on conservative self-righteousness to protect them from recrimination, that their pragmatism and cynicism will always prove successful strategically so long as conservatives maintain a desire to appear above the fray.

Patterico accused me of “demonizing” all Democrats, which is patently absurd. In fact, I dealt specifically with denying the appellation “good man” to someone who, through his actions, has proven to be anything but.

It matters who gets called a “good man.” It matters who we say has this country’s best interests at heart. And yes, it’s possible Obama does, to a certain extent — though what is important to recognize is that, at least so far as his governing principles to this point suggest, he doesn’t hold that view from the perspective of the country as it was founded, and as it was intended to be governed.

Which means that Obama’s best interests for the country are really the best interests for a country he’d like to see this one become — a new text that he’d like us to believe will be but an re-interpretation of the original text.

As someone who believes in the principles upon which this country was founded, I refuse to allow that someone whose ideological predispositions compel him to radically redefine that “imperfect document” that is the Constitution, has this country’s best interests at heart.

And I likewise refuse to allow that a man whose thuggish deeds and unsavory associations have defined him be granted the honor of “good man.” Because to do so is to make a mockery of good men, and to cede yet another bit of our ability to evaluate and describe and conclude in good faith into a bit of “hate speech” that won’t help the GOP regain power.

To which I say, outlaws ain’t team players. And it’s time to be outlaws.

Posted by Jeff G. @ 12:02pm
504 comments | Trackback

Comments (504)

  1. Obama is a nice man.

    Obama is a good man.

    Obama is a honest man.

    Obama is a kind man.

    Obama is a respectful man.

    Obama is a moral man.

    Obama is a smart man.

  2. To which I say, outlaws ain’t team players. And it’s time to be outlaws.

    Shiny. Let’s be bad guys.

  3. thor is a childish idiot.

    thor is a childish idiot.

    thor is a childish idiot.

    thor is a childish idiot.

    thor is a childish idiot.

  4. As to the outlaw thing, do I get to wear a bandanna?

  5. See, thor’s hungover again. It’s all he can manage. Say… do you think thor is one of those Obama zombies from the Pub video?

  6. Remember: spend the next four years yelling Obama is a fascist.

    We won’t have to. If he governs as a radical, mainstream America will do the yelling. If he governs as a moderate, the Democrat base will do it.

    Y’all know where the band-aids are.

  7. I’m trying to discern meaning and intent from Proud fascist’s rant, but it’s HARD. I was hoping they’d make more sense after the election.

  8. “Obama is a fascist”

    Wow, the broken clock is right once today.

    Let’s wait another 12 hours and see what happens.

  9. I’m even more conviced now, Jeff, that your critics are fundamentally illiterate dopes.

  10. And that thor is a drunken idiot.

  11. “Comment by Spiny Norman on 11/6 @ 12:15 pm #

    I’m even more conviced now, Jeff, that your critics are fundamentally illiterate dopes.”

    Yeah. Look at thor.

  12. I’d like to take this time to apologize to anyone who was offended by me calling President-elect Obama “President Negro”. I won’t do it again as it calls attention to the color of Obama’s skin, which is not in play.

    I will, from here on out, refer to him as President Drugs Delaney.

    If any of you are interested in joining my new party – The Frontier Party, let me know. (formerly The Walmart Party, happyfeet – Chairperson)

  13. Instead, I want to talk more generally about why I believe, pace Cranky Conservative, that “whether or not we should say that Obama is a nice guy” is vitally important…

    Hear, hear!

  14. I’m already committed to the Get Offa My Lawn! Party, alp.

  15. Obama is a nice man.

    Obama is a good man.

    Obama is a honest man.

    Obama is a kind man.

    Obama is a respectful man.

    Obama is a moral man.

    Obama is a smart man.

    I had to give you that last one.

  16. And I likewise refuse to allow that a man whose thuggish deeds and unsavory associations have defined him be granted the honor of “good man.” Because to do so is to make a mockery of good men…

    Absolutely right.

  17. Never buy weed from a Negro. They pinch the decent buds.

  18. I’m already committed to the Get Offa My Lawn! Party, alp.

    Cool name McGehee, but I fear your platform may be a bit narrow. We could fold you in. We need an enforcer.

  19. It’s funny that amid the talk of Hope and Change and unity, the attacks on Palin continue.

    Yea, We should all should bow down and say what a nice guy Obama is, all the while the attacks on her continue.

    Fuck that.

  20. Never buy weed from a Negro. They pinch the decent buds.

    Where was this kind of insider knowledge 3 days ago thor?

  21. Do I get to wear a toga, Alp?

  22. Carin,

    I also believe Obama is a strong man and people who think he will govern the same as Jimmy Carter, that Annapolis-educated ex U.S. navy officer and former business owner are fooling themselves.

  23. hey,thor , let’s get a hat and extend the hand acroww the aisle to wingnuts

  24. And I likewise refuse to allow that a man whose thuggish deeds and unsavory associations have defined him be granted the honor of “good man.”
    Being on top doesn’t necessarily make you good. Turds can float to the top, too.

  25. Obama — the partial birth abortion and infanticide supporting man that he is — has more ruthlessness in his little finger than Carter ever had in his entire body.

  26. Obama is a nice man, a Leader what is quite Dear I think. Let us sing a song for him, a song of Unity and Justice. There are things with which we might disagree at first, but we have no reason to think he won’t be patient while his journalists explain things to where we can understand them. He is our President. Many of you presume much I think.

  27. Carin,

    This morning I heard on Brian and the Judge (you know the two gay guys that try to not sound gay which just gives their gayness reverb) I heard a guy from Michigan tell them that the Repubs need to face reality. A guy from our own little mitten-shaped 3rd world country that’s been under Democrat leadership since Robert Bird had his last boner, is giving reality checks. I immediately thought of you. (And your tramp stamp).

  28. In the end, however, there is a bigger problem:

    “Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions… Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the ‘new, wonderful good society’ which shall now be Rome’s, interpreted to mean ‘more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.’ Julius was always an ambitious villain, but he is only one man.”
    — Cicero

  29. Obey your Obama!

    Post-election stress disorder is no mau-mauing matter.

    Hey sash, did you read Putin is coming back in ’09? Putin has gone off the deep end.

    I wonder if I should return to Moscow and help incite a revolution. I simply can’t believe it.

  30. Do I get to wear a toga, Alp?

    No dress code in The Frontier Party thor.

  31. This is an outstanding post, Jeff.

    You know, I was sitting around the dinner table with my husband and our neighbors yesterday evening, analyzing the loss, and it all came back to one thing: John McCain’s absolute refusal to call Barack Obama and the media on the “THAT’S RACIST!” bullshit they kept throwing, as well as his refusal to even open dialogue on certain topics (J. Wright, the subprime source of the Fannie/Freddie meltdown) for fear of being called a racist.

    The response McCain should have given to that crap was as follows, “No, my friends, that’s not racist. It is not racist to say that Barack Obama displayed abysmal judgment by sitting in a church for twenty years, with his young daughters, listening to men like Jeremiah Wright rant and rave against the White Man and the United States of America. It is not racist to point out that Barack Obama gave some $50,000 to that same church during the last few years. That would speak ill of Barack Obama’s judgment — and call into question how he really feels about this country — whether he was black, white, or green with orange polka dots.

    “It is likewise not racist to point out that the Fannie/Freddie meltdown was caused, at bottom, by banks giving loans to people who likely would not be able to pay them back. ACORN played a significant role in this fiasco, and it was aided and abetted by, among other people, a young lawyer in Chicago named Barack Obama.

    “These are facts. They may be inconvenient to Mr. Obama’s election prospects, but they are facts. Facts are not racist. They simply are.

    “If Mr. Obama is, as he so often likes to tell us, truly the post-racial candidate, then he — and the media — ought to have no problem with our having an honest conversation about the facts. When Senator Obama is ready to have this conversation, I’ll be waiting.”

  32. Do you think Medvedev is just moving his missiles so Obama won’t have to drive so far when Russia pulls a Khadafi?

  33. Obama is a smart intelligent sounding man.

    Fixed.

  34. Carin has a tramp stamp? Chick, I hope.

  35. Remember:

    Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

    Speak truth to power.

  36. “I wonder if I should return to Moscow and help incite a revolution.”

    Yes, please do. And forget your laptop.

  37. Carin has a tramp stamp?

    In the collective imagination she does.

    maybe

  38. it speaks to something classical liberals need to put at the top of their priority list: namely, a refusal to allow that tactics of progressives to pass unchallenged or even to be celebrated.

    Music to my ears. It’s like praising the Nazi propaganda machine or the ingenuity of using our own fully fueled airliners against our own very tall buildings.

    It says nothing good about you if you admire intelligence and craft and artistry in the service of tyranny. Instead, it is to be deplored as the perversion that it is.

  39. Hey Puck check this out from O!’s first of many different speeches on Rev. Wright. Specifically look where he says that not giving AA’s FHA mortgages was based on racism. Hilarious how that was never thrown back at him.

    “Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven’t fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today’s black and white students.

    Legalized discrimination – where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments – meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today’s urban and rural communities.”

  40. I meant President Drugs Delaney on that Khadafi thing.

  41. Water your plants, you crazed crank.

  42. “hey,thor , let’s get a hat and extend the hand acroww the aisle to wingnuts”

    With Rahm baby as CofS you’re already behind the curve. There won’t be any hands across the aisle. It will be do it or we get the MSM to eviserate you. Moonbats are SO slow

  43. I rather staple a kick me sign to my back than call this guy a “good” man. F that.

  44. Fuck Putin.
    I am wondering would Russia be able to survive as an independent nation without the strongman as the ruler?
    Or the western style democracy will bring the chaos over there?
    Can I live long enough to see if I am wrong?

  45. I heard a guy from Michigan tell them that the Repubs need to face reality. A guy from our own little mitten-shaped 3rd world country that’s been under Democrat leadership since Robert Bird had his last boner, is giving reality checks.

    Honestly, liberals are insufferable right now. I almost put my fist through the radio after 3 minutes of Mitch Albom.

  46. Can I live long enough to see if I am wrong?

    God I hope not.

    Just kidding sasha. Get well soon.

  47. I’m having a hard time following the Khadafi metaphor. I’m going to Whole Foods to buy me something le bon bon. I am. Whole fuckin’ Foods! Party time!

  48. Team player? Why would I want to be part of “Team Race-card?”

  49. Jeff, are you going to be a Tupac type outlaw, because I’m pretty sure you can borrow his song named, appropriately enough, Outlaws, as an anthem.

    Cause when I bust em they gonna shiver, the killers cry
    Soldiers got bodies floatin in the river, what is they sayin?
    Talkin bout prayin — they need to stop, that ain’t gon’ help
    These niggaz sprayin up my block, tryin to take my wealth

    Dramacydal…

  50. “Outlaws,” huh? I like the sound of that. thor and sashal are now the man. How oppressive. The man is going down.

    How does it feel to give Dear Leader blowjobs, fellows? You both must be quite proud.

  51. Carin I would advise against listening to that or watching TV for a couple months. The calls for “unity” or the description of our country as now “unified” by the news networks had me ready to throw a brick. Unified to them means Republicans lose, there is no clearer example of this than right now.

  52. I’m having a hard time following the Khadafi metaphor

    That’s the bad weed dude. Get your money back.

  53. How does it feel to give Dear Leader blowjobs, fellows? You both must be quite proud.

    According to thor, someone has to have his dick cut off! sash, thor, which one of you is up for microsurgery!!!

  54. #

    Comment by sashal on 11/6 @ 12:42 pm #

    Fuck Putin.
    I am wondering would Russia be able to survive as an independent nation without the strongman as the ruler?
    Or the western style democracy will bring the chaos over there?
    Can I live long enough to see if I am wrong?

    What if someone put a golden bullet behind Putin’s ear. I wonder what’d happen in the aftermath.

  55. What if someone put a golden bullet behind Putin’s ear. I wonder what’d happen in the aftermath.

    Commemorative plates from The Franklin Mint?

  56. Glad I sent you a money now. :)

  57. same shit,thor 2 years of chaos then a new strongman.
    There is something which comes with the territory or may be in the water over there

  58. If someone were to zap Putin, hypothetically, the folks in the near abroad better damn well hope that someone has absolutely no connection to them whatsoever.

  59. “Comment by thor on 11/6 @ 12:22 pm #

    Never buy weed from a Negro. They pinch the decent buds.”

    Your bud must be really sore.

  60. helpful hint
    i’m from boston-and after the superbowl disaster
    i would wear my red sox jersey[this is last year-mind u] and say “world champs”
    totally turned off the tv
    news just to get the weather[around 16-17 minutes past the hour]
    and now i’m on the PW!

  61. SarahW, why don’t you post your thoughts, pro and con, about Patterico’s decision at Ace’s and see what the moron’s think about it?

    Obviously I take offence at how Patterico redefines good to mean the person he said a couple days previously would be an awful choice because of his support of the barbaric practice of partial birth abortion. Other people, such as Jeff G., have issues they think are more relevant now due to basic freedoms and not corrupting the political process.

    But regardless, it would make a good post and perhaps Patterico will find support for his notion, if not me.

  62. The calls for “unity”, or of dubbing O! a “good” man, that are coming from our side are coming from a hope that people like thor and sash are not the mainstream to Obama and his new administration. Obama could listen to thor speak for hours and probably not bat an eye in revulsion. People like thor and the Kos nuts got him elected and own him, if we can not at least admit that then we might as well blind ourselves with a rusty screwdriver.

    Giving this guy the modicum of respect went out the window when he openly tolerated and supported hatred of me and mine for 20 plus years.

  63. Pink people suck.

  64. Pink people-parts don’t.

  65. “I’m off to the Mall to sell razor blades so people can scrape off their “Question Authority” bumper stickers. Just remember: Dissent is still the highest form of patriotism. Except now it will be practiced by the lowest form of people.”

    -Lileks

  66. Ha! I put that Lileks quote on my blog yesterday.

  67. Christoph, I agree with JeffG that there are other more relevant issues relating to O’s character.

    FWIW, I have a much more complex view of the legislation you refer to, and think it was in fact bad law and worthy of principled opposition. I would address O’s refusal to take a principled stand (vs. a “present” vote) if I criticized his character for his vote.

  68. I thought that Lileks quote was a keeper, too. :)

  69. This is a comment left at Patterico’s that is so good it is must read:

    “he is still, for a politician, a basically decent guy, trying to do what he thinks is right for the country.”

    Patterico, with all due respect, I don’t see how your statement above and below support and/or give evidence to your claim. I think they are incompatible and if anything, a stark contradiction,

    [These words in bold are Patterico's words. -- C]

    Look again at the picture of the 18-week-old fetus. Are you comfortable with stabbing that creature in the head with a pair of scissors and sucking out its brains? When statistics show that most such abortions are not done for physical health reasons?

    Bottom line: Obama has pledged to sign legislation that will bring us that unnecessary horror again.

    I would like to know what your measurement of a basically decent guy is because I’m not seeing it.

    If there is not even the basic regard and respect for the intrinsic and inherent value of life – and particularly from one who will be leader of a society struggling with this issue – what makes him be a decent guy?

    Comment by Dana — 11/6/2008 @ 8:36 am

    I don’t believe Patterico can survive Dana’s reasoning and showing the contradiction between Patterico’s words pre- and post-election other than by:

    1. apologizing and recanting, or

    2. revealing himself to be a man whose standard of a decency is someone who will sign law bring about more of what Patterico consider a “horror”, to wit stabbing an 18-week (up to full term, actually) fetus in the head with scissors; further, who is so inconsistent with himself he calls this action a “horror”.

    If Patterico apologizes and recants that position, he chooses the better course. If he does not, he lacks integrity.

  70. First of all, well, thanks for stopping by my humble blog.

    And, for what it’s worth, I side much more with you than with Patterico. Conservatives have been falling all over themselves in the last few days to be the first to congratulate the first black President and to wax eloquent on how proud of their country they are fro getting past race. Hogwash. Barack Obama is perhaps the most unfit person we’ve ever had to (soon) occupy the highest office in the land. As you have pointed out, there is nothing “good” about a man who can pal around with terrorists and racist preachers. I agree with all that. And I also agree that we can’t play Queensberry rules.

    Where I am coming from with my post is simply this: we’re going to have a lot of intramural battles in the comings days, months, and years. When we’ve got people like Frum trying to excommunicate the very people who are the backbone of the GOP in order to curry favor with a fleeting group of voters, then we know we’re in for some serious skirmishes over policy and tactics. I view both Patterico and yourself as guys, who like me, are all on the same page for the most part.

    Long story short, it was a plea to keep our powder dry for the battles that matter.

  71. David Frum is an NPR toady. I don’t think he counts as being actually part of any actual conversation about real life.

  72. I blame Bush.
    Without what happened the last 4 years, Obama would be a middle-weight on several Senate committees absolutely no one had ever heard of.

    And a republican of some sort would be POTUS.

    Outlaw, courteous…Patterico or Jeff G
    false choices all.

    I want to ensure that the leadership of my country never, ever performs like what we saw from 2005 to the present. I especially want to prevent it from a right-leaning POTUS.

    nuance, you know?

  73. Jane’s my favorite, McGehee. Browncoats, not Brownshirts!

    Wow, Carin, you’re getting all the tramp-stamp attention without the accompanying discomfort and permanence…how do you rate?

  74. I want to ensure that the leadership of my country never, ever performs like what we saw from 2005 to the present.

    When all is said and done, the failure of Bush’s second term is not that he governed as a big government conservative, but that he just didn’t govern. Second terms are notorious for being disappointments, but I don’t think it’s too hyperbolic to say that Bush’s second term may have been the worst of them all. Aside from his failed attempt to reform social security (remember that?) and his failed attempt at comprehensive immigration reform, what exactly did he even try to accomplish? The surge in Iraq was a great tactic, but it was a correction of earlier failed strategies.

    Maybe we really should term limit the President to a single term.

  75. I blame Bush.

    Yes, we know. You’re getting to be as tedious about it as Sashal and his “bolsheviks”.

  76. You blame Pres. Bush for Obama’s choices in life and philosophy? You blame Bush for the multitude of your fellow Americans without an ounce of curiosity about the man the choose to elect to the Presidency? Of course, what am I asking, for what would a mcgruder post be without blaming Bush!?

    Unthinkable!

  77. And I likewise refuse to allow that a man whose thuggish deeds and unsavory associations have defined him be granted the honor of “good man.” Because to do so is to make a mockery of good men, and to cede yet another bit of our ability to evaluate and describe and conclude in good faith into a bit of “hate speech” that won’t help the GOP regain power.

    Patterico’s not the first, nor probably the last, to use the terminology “good man,” or “sincere man” or whatever label they prefer to start from, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Did they use the same label for Gore, or Kerry?

    So the difference is — the term that dare not speak its name — race. The bludgeon that has been used by the left to silence critics for decades. The bludgeon that brought us ACORN, LaRaza and the Fannie/Freddie debacle, subsidized in US tax dollars by a compliant Republican-controlled Congress (including John McCain), cringing at the mere whiff of the smear that ends careers. The bludgeon of “inclusiveness” and “diversity” that our kids, whether we choose to recognize it or not, are indoctrinated through our public schools — no discussion allowed.

  78. Rob C – Sashal is a bolshevik. A dirty little bolshevik.

  79. The media was definitely gearing up to help McCain differentiate himself from Bush and get a fresh start. They really struggled with Bush when he started painting himself into an unpopular corner but finally they just gave up covering for him.

  80. Jeff,

    Agreed.

    If you give them an inch they will take a mile.

    When you see Bullshit call it bullshit and dispose of it. Otherwise, someone will come along and use it as fertilizer for something you would rather they didn’t.

    “Don’t want to be offended? Learn to interpret properly.”

    Well said! In addition, the notion that he has somehow lifted the entire black community out of the darkness of racism is absurd. In fact, in light of all the stereotypes that actual racists hold (and we have all been exposed to at one time or another) of blacks in general, and in light of Obama’a arguably dishonest, unethical and criminal behavior in his meteoric rise to power it may just do more harm then good to the blacks in America. I would argue, regardless of job performance, he will be seen as the “affirmative action” president who was elected not because he was capable or had proven himself as a leader but because he was black and we (we=liberal elite folks who are weighted down by their own white guilt that has been hammered into their head in academia)were finally ready for it. He will be seen as the man who was elected because he was black not in spite of it.

    At a time in our history when what we really needed was a good, honest and decent man/woman, regardless of party or race we got a narcasistic, mendacious prick who happens to be black.

    Buckle up! It’s going to get bumpy.

  81. Shorter John:

    Capitulation is for pussies!

    OUTLAW!

  82. So, wait, is our battle cry “OUTLAW!” or “WOLVERINES!”

    I was hoping we’d settle on “TITTIES AND BEER!” or even “SPOOOON!”, but I just want to get it straight.

  83. Rob,

    I thought it was “OUTLAW!” but I also like “REGULATORS! MOUNT UP!”

  84. SDFerr,
    i think it might be helpful if you guys thought about it along those lines. because if Bush hadnt governed that way, there wouldnt be these pubic-hair thin, jesuitical arguments between people who see things essentially the same way. Patterico says be nice; Jeff doesnt. Ok. But their blogs largely advocate for the same sort of policies and they agree about more than they disagree, it appears to me.

    Instead, we in the right blogosphere–I blame myself equally–supported Bush something along the lines of unreservedly.

    you know, I think most people understand that Obama is a liberal cipher who rose thru a Chicago machine to be… whatever it is he became. he wouldnt have been allowed to sell hot dogs on the national stage if it werent for GOP screw ups. I know dozens of republicans who simply saw us sinking into the frigging toilet and wanted a different direction.

    So my interest is in seeing no other candidate like Bush emerge in the GOP.

    this is a center-right country; they like reasonable conservatives. They vote liberal in a fucking emergency, or out of disgust.

    Go ahead–outlaw up. I dont begrudge you–actually, im learning from you all.

    Ill just be doing what I can on the other end.

  85. Well said, Jeff. I have NO interest in being friendly, generous, and accomodating of a man who holds me and mine in as much contempt as Obama and his minions do. No truce in the Culture war, no truce in the political war, no truce with would-be Messiahs, no truce with his worshippers. No truce with kings!

    OUTLAW!

  86. …he wouldnt have been allowed to sell hot dogs on the national stage if it werent for GOP screw ups. …

    See, the problem I have with stuff like this is that I see it as akin to “The Japanese wouldn’t have bombed Pearl Harbor if we had sunk their fleet first.” Sorry.

  87. “let’s get a hat and extend the hand acroww the aisle to wingnuts”

    I took that chap up on his offer, and made a counter-offer. We’ll see how the strong the new commitment to post-partisanship lies.

  88. no, that’s wrong. Perhaps I expressed myself poorly.

    I really have no idea how to make that point more clearly however.

    I guess we will just drop it.

    I will try and oppose any future Bush-like candidates and you can continue to sound-off on the scumminess that is Obama and his policies.

    Maybe in ’12 or ’16 these two thoughtstreams meet in the middle.

    Regardless, we will use PW as a Switzerland and on occasion, be allies of a sort.

  89. I think Darth Rove summed up the situation nicely in the other thread

    Here’s the reality to those of us in Jeffs camp. Not only are we challenged by a majority party in opposition to ours, one that has been hijacked by fascist Progressives striving to take us completely out of the game, we are faced with the task of reforming our own party. One that has been hijacked by the DC Republicans, the folks that gave us John McCain as our down in flames leader, and is now busy tearing down the very individual they cynically picked as McCains running mate, Sarah Palin. Because of her wild popularity and the personal connection she has with people like us.

    That there is a steep hill to start climbing, and acting gracious to the the guy that just took your shoes and will be waiting for you behind every tree on the way up is no way to prepare yourself for the climb.

    Better to look for a sturdy walking stick with the thought it would be handy to have for the asshole uptrail waiting to take your shirt.

  90. Obama is a nice man.

    But can he caddy? Rotate the tires, have the shrubs kept up, see to the foundation stones.

    (You thought that was racist. So would a good but liberal friend of mine but I said to him, rightly, that all that ended late Tuesday night. Because it did. It never had to end in me because I’ve never been racist.)

    I meant that concerning the absolutely necessary public service to the prime ideal he’s about to swear to uphold.

    The rest of us can call each other crackers and worse and it shouldn’t bug the White House one little bit. Whether the President is a nice man concerns me not in the least.

  91. …I will try and oppose any future Bush-like candidates…

    I will try right along with you but won’t be running the old one down in the meantime. I voted for Bush in a binary choice. I voted. Not Gore, I said. Not Kerry, I said. I certainly wasn’t a Bush pusher prior to his 2000 nomination. I chose Romney (of all people! * I write, as I shake my head wondering what the f got into me back then *) for this go-round. Not McCain, I said, please god, not McCain. But alas and alack, McCain it was and in another binary choice, I voted. McCain I voted. Not Obama.

    Sure we’re allies on the whole, you and I (and many others). And I’d agree, were we to sit and talk at length about it, that Pres. Bush made plenty of choices I would consider poor. But the fail, so far as I can see, wasn’t determined primarily by those poor choices, decisions, what-have-you. Some of the fail was due to profoundly powerful externalities (as th’conomists like to say), some to the determination of his opposition (domestic enemies damn near) to be as cruel and ruthless as they knew how, some to the perfidy of the electorate, who supported the Iraq

  92. Lee,

    That is why our battle starts and ends with taking back language from people who are willing to call Obama a good man. We can blame the proggs for all of our problems but lets face it, we brought this on ourselves with our own weakness. No More! And quite frankly Patterico and those willing to “give an inch” are the problem. Therefore they must be addressed before we move on to anything else IMHO.

  93. The guy’s a creep.

    All of that Cult of Personality stuff? Still there. We’ve elected a creep.

    I don’t want to extend a hand to someone who’ll just bite it off, and I don’t make nice with goons.

    All this “conservatives need a breather” and “now we can heal” crap is just saying “now that we’ve won, you can just STFU”.

    No. And fuck you very much.

  94. They’ve written it large upon the walls and tenement halls. Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
    This Canadian is taking a lot of heat for saying basically what Jeff is saying. At best, this guy is just a particularly slick politician but still a politician, and a lawyer. I tolerate their kind, as a rule, but that’s about it. While I think it is a great thing that a black man has been elected POTUS, that’s as far as it goes. To be truly equal, it must be acknowledged that not only are you not barred from success but you’re as able to fuck up as much as the next man or woman.

  95. Oops. Sorry. Hit some key there I didn’t know about and printed early….well back to my explanation…

    …Iraq operation, what?, 70% for – 30% against?, and then turned about after a few months of Democrat (with media help) ranting “Bush lied!” and ran for cover as the exigencies of war (which always come) turned against us and opposed the Iraq theater in the inverse with which they had formerly supported it.

    Then Katrina. I live in hurricane country. I’ve been underneath five of them (or their near edges) and nothing save perhaps Hugo (and that includes Andrew, which, while terrible, was tiny by compare with K) has impressed me more with its awesome scope and power. Combined with the dysfunction of N.O.? Sheesh! I doubt any federal bureaucracy under any Pres. would have fared better in execution (poorly) but pile on the emotive clap-trap the media piled on those three weeks? Shit man, no politician would have survived that onslaught.

    Anyhow’s, enough from me. We’ll fight together for our country, you and I, to the extent that we can and to the extent that we know. But as I said, Basta! from me.

  96. Let’s see…By their own moral relativism, O! is a good man…

    Regardless of how he threw his moralistic pronouncements, such as his pontification about eeeeeevil lobbyists, the influence of big campaign bucks on public servats, and the righteousness of public campaign finance, under the bus along with all of his good friends, associates, and mentors. In spite of his hypocrisy about post-racial outlook, throwin’ the race cards faster than a Vegas black-jack dealer, as well as denouncing the fear mongering of the eeeeevil RethigliKKKans-while warning everyone about the impending financial doom and gloom that would ruin! their lives and break seniors especially. Playing the same old identity politics, divide-and-conquer, game while claiming to be a uniter; and talking about reaching across the aisle when he voted dirtually all the time along the straight party line…

    Astounding…

    If I have to admit that he’s a good man then they should also talk up how great Booooooosh! is…

    Or McVeigh…Or Hitler…Or Stalin; they might admit that!

    This is simply an extension of the whole PC speak ideology…

    It kinda plays off the notion of Christian forgiveness; an idea that is often subverted by assuming that folks can wrong you all they want and you just have to forgive them unconditionally. But, what that assessment would miss is that they be contrite about their bad behaviour…

    O! doesn’t regret anything he did; By whatever means necessary, eff the wingnutz. His calls for some kind of phony postures of unity cannot ring true unless he were to disavow, and admit to the patent dishonesty, of his past deeds…

    He’ll be the President, and I’ll respect his office. But, I’ll neither respect mor trust him as a person-he hasn’t earned that…

  97. “Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I’ve ever known in my life.”

  98. Christoph,
    That Cicero quote is chillingly applicable to today’s situation…

  99. #87: No truce with kings actually comes from here:

    Clamour over ocean of the harsh, pursuing Trumpets–
    Trumpets of the Vanguard that have sworn no truce with Kings!

    I find this verse more appropriate:

    Step by step, and word by word: who is ruled may read.
    Suffer not the old Kings: for we know the breed–

    All the right they promise–all the wrong they bring.
    Stewards of the Judgment, suffer not this King !

  100. I plan to give the Obama administration a clean slate to start with on 20 Jan. I won’t forget the dirty, scummy, vile campaign tactics–effective as they were. I’ll keep that in the back of my mind.

    But he gets the clean slate. If he goes hard left in governing, or brings in the brownshirt tactics, or starts royally fucking up the country, then all bets are off and I will oppose him to the full extent of my being. OUTLAW tactics as necessary.

    But regardless of his governance, the Republican party needs to figure out what its key essential philosophy is, and promote that above all else. It needs to suppress less important/dominant issues to the backburner, even if some of the party members have deeply held beliefs in the inherent goodness of them. Those issues can be refocused by the other side as the main ones, and scare the voting populace into believing all Repubs are that way (you know, like we’re all religious zealots who want to regulate their activities in the bedroom). If small government, fiscal reponsibility, freedom, and individuality is our essential philosophy, we need to run on that and nothing else. The others issues become a distraction.

    Obama’s administration will have about a year to make a positive impression. If it fails, the midterm elections will bring in a change (maybe not a majority) into Congress. Those new folks need to have integrity, character, and moral leadership ability. With that and a clear governing philosophy, the 2012 elections may swing further into the Republican side in Congress, with a potential of the Presidency, but I’m thinking 2016 for that unless Obama turns out to be a complete idiot (Carter redux, anyone?).

    So who’s in charge of making it happen?

  101. I believe that Patterico, as well as most of the well wishers on our side are operating under a misguided sense of chivalrous ideals concomitant with the spirit of E Pluribus Unum

    Unfortunately that kind of outlook cannot be adhered to with the, “By any means necessary”, left; their adherance to tribal factionalism and identity politics necessarily calls for calling a spade a spade-so to speak-when politically sparring with them…

    O! is not a good man…Intelligent, shrews, ambitious, maybe..but neither good, vituous, nor moral-in the classical sense

  102. Comment by Bob Reed on 11/6 @ 3:51 pm #

    Christoph,
    That Cicero quote is chillingly applicable to today’s situation…

    I’m sure Patterico would have said Julius Caesar was a good man. Napoleon too. Maybe Hitler, once the election was over and he was entering office.

    I don’t mean the 1941 Hitler. Patterico would have opposed him. I mean the January 1933 Hitler.

  103. Watch out for this.

    Because while your “watching out” for it, much of it will be happening and other things besides.

  104. Bye the way… I don’t think Obama is Hitler. I’d say closer to Lenin.

    But ruthless, strong, and cunning. Charismatic. Not Jimmy Carter. And almost as radical as his mentors, but smarter.

  105. Good for you Pete. But before you give the man a year, maybe you want to read Quin Hillyer’s article from the American Spectator, Saul Alinsky Takes the White House. Good Luck!

  106. Carin and alppuccino:

    I just heard on the radio that Obama has tapped Jennifer Granholm to be a member of his economic advisory team. Our economy will be humming along nicely in no time if she does for the country what she’s done for Michigan!

  107. Mossberg

    I’ve read Hillyer’s article. I meant that people will give Obama and Congress a year to meet a minimum level of expectations, or they will start looking for new blood in Congress for 2010. If it’s the right blood, then 2012 looks even more promising.

    But the first 100 days will give me good insight to whether Obama’s going hard left, or limited to doing only what is realistically viable.

  108. “I’ve read Hillyer’s article. I meant that people will give Obama and Congress a year to meet a minimum level of expectations, or they will start looking for new blood in Congress for 2010. If it’s the right blood, then 2012 looks even more promising.”

    I see you read the article, but you did not understand it. Why not read it again?

  109. Pete, from where I’m sitting, looking at election results, hard left looks realistically viable.

    I think you’re in for a shock, maybe you should sit down for this…

  110. O doesn’t give a damn about ‘realistically viable’. You are kidding yourself if you think so. He is not a moderate. I sussed him out a couple of years ago, when I noticed he always voted hard Left.

    I doubt O and his cohort will have the discipline to refrain from grabbing for everything they can right from the start; they’re like kids in a candy store, and they have many promises to keep. At first, they’ll make some attempt to look dispassionate as they test the waters–the media is their friend–but then they’ll tip their hand so that their perfidy will be obvious even to their media stooges. Then they’ll go into stealth mode, where they’ll really become dangerous: small, incremental moves that will leech our freedoms from us.

  111. Back to subject matter of Jeff’s thread. Your point is exceptionally well reasoned and argued. Words have meanings. This is a classic post and you should keep this handy to cut and paste or link and re-link in the future. We are engaged in a culture war and the good guys just lost a major battle. The time for “extending an olive branch”, “reaching across the aisle”, reconciliation, “healing”, or calling your enemy “a good man” is AFTER he is clearly and soundly defeated. Or, alternatively, after you have plainly surrendered.

  112. Hillyer is right: this is the last dance.

    That edict from Kos about eliminating us as a political force is exactly the way they think and exactly what they intend to do to us. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that this was my last free election. They’re going to change as much opf the landscape as they can over the next 4 years. These people are the old SDS-ers: doctrinaire, utopian, committed.

  113. That’s why part of the battle is to make certain that words retain their original meaning. Patterico and McCain are nice guys, but they are living in the last century. I don’t think the magnitude of the problem has hit them yet.

  114. qwfwq, hear, hear.

    But no exclamation mark, because it’s dour.

  115. I expect Patterico to be doing testimonials for cash4gold dot com soon.

  116. “Patterico and McCain are nice guys, but they are living in the last century. I don’t think the magnitude of the problem has hit them yet.”

    Indeed. Nice guys. Fuck ‘em.

    I’M OUTLAW!

  117. ow, Carin, you’re getting all the tramp-stamp attention without the accompanying discomfort and permanence…how do you rate?

    If I knew how to photoshop, I’d do one with that long-ass quote on my lower back. Alas …

  118. That edict from Kos about eliminating us as a political force is exactly the way they think and exactly what they intend to do to us

    Which is why this Palin stuff is CREEPY. Asshole Mitch Albom (sorry Alp, listen to him for a bit today AGAIN) was talking about how the REpublican party is imploding, yada yada yada.

  119. You’d have to drop trou for that lengthy quote, unless you had it done in a really cool eternity circle thingy.

    Since Obama tapped Rahm Emanuel as Chief of Staff I am totally off the “I’ll give him a chance” wagon. No way he’s going to govern from the center with that guy on board. So, OUTLAW!!!! it is.

  120. sorry Alp, listen to him for a bit today AGAIN) was talking about how the REpublican party is imploding, yada yada yada.

    Perfectly alright Carin. Frontiersman listen to these idiots from time to time to hear who’s advertising with them. For the purpose of not buying.

    It’s a new phenomenon. It’s what Brian Boytano would do.

  121. Brian Triple Axel Boytano? Are you fucking kidding me?

  122. no, that’s wrong. Perhaps I expressed myself poorly.

    I really have no idea how to make that point more clearly however.

    I guess we will just drop it.

    I will try and oppose any future Bush-like candidates and you can continue to sound-off on the scumminess that is Obama and his policies.

    Maybe in ‘12 or ‘16 these two thoughtstreams meet in the middle.

    Regardless, we will use PW as a Switzerland and on occasion, be allies of a sort.

    Big Press inaction.

    Fuck Switzerland.

    Think Arsenal of Democracy.

  123. The criticism of Bush is frankly disgusting. He is quite simply the best man — the best human being — who has held the office since Lincoln. I know of no other person who could shrug off the obscene insults, the vile hatred, and the relentless opposition — some of it from people who claimed to be his allies in happier times. He has withstood this for eight years with never a harsh word, and has persevered in a literally thankless task purely because he knows it is the right thing to do.

    I hope that someday, when historians have overcome their own partisan hatred, he will be acknowledged as one of the best men to serve as President. He has fought his country’s enemies valiantly, he has turned the other cheek to insults and hatred, and he has never taken the easy way. I have never met anyone who could have done the same; Lord knows it would have broken me within a week.

    I think that all of us should write letters to him when he retires and thank him. He deserves a monument the size of Jefferson’s and will never get it because of the hatred of his enemies. A letter would be nice.

  124. Excellent idea Trimegistus. I’ll even do it snail mail.

  125. “The personal and very public destruction of private citizens (from Joe the Plumber to Trig Palin) ”

    This has like, zero to do with Obama being good or evil.

    “And yes, it’s possible Obama does, to a certain extent — though what is important to recognize is that, at least so far as his governing principles to this point suggest, he doesn’t hold that view from the perspective of the country as it was founded, and as it was intended to be governed.”

    I doubt you’ll find any black man that thinks that. They’ll at least look for how this country was intended to be governed after the reconstruction.

  126. President Bush is my president. The dirty socialist not so much.

  127. Reworded for this thread.

    The progressive left both presumes and assumes that they alone are both “intelligent” and “wise” enough to define terms such as “greater good” and it is in terms of that definition that they see that Barack Obama is a “good” man. His “goodness” is a reflection of and dependent on that definition.

    Our own “badness” is also. Definitions and who claims the right to them is at the heart of this struggle and you, Jeff G., are attacking that fulcrum that the Left uses to leverage their power.

    This is why it is important. The definition of “good” is what is at stake in these statements. Ceding to the left that their definition is the correct one is to lose the game before it starts.

  128. http://www.ushistory.org/PAINE/rights/c2-03.htm

    The Rights of Man by Thomas Paine
    Applying Principle to Practice, Chapter 3 — Of the Old and New Systems of Government

    Nothing can appear more contradictory than the principles on which the old governments began, and the condition to which society, civilisation and commerce are capable of carrying mankind. Government, on the old system, is an assumption of power, for the aggrandisement of itself; on the new, a delegation of power for the common benefit of society. The former supports itself by keeping up a system of war; the latter promotes a system of peace, as the true means of enriching a nation. The one encourages national prejudices; the other promotes universal society, as the means of universal commerce. The one measures its prosperity, by the quantity of revenue it extorts; the other proves its excellence, by the small quantity of taxes it requires.

  129. I doubt you’ll find any black man that thinks that.

    Would you like to do me a favor, meya? Would you please Google Thomas Sowell, and then take your moronic little racist ass somewhere else to read what you find and leave us the hell alone.

  130. Google Thomas Sowell

    Also Shelby Steele, Michael Steele, Walter Williams, Larry Elder, Clarence Thomas, Michael Williams…

  131. I have an idea for Jeff.

    I have an idea for you: go fuck yourself with a rusty crowbar.

    Your guy is in now, Caric. You control it all. Get busy with the utopia thing. It’s not going to build itself while you yammer on the Internet.

    I expect my free gas, bitch, and you’d best deliver.

  132. Who, Uncle Tom? Surely, you jest, B Moe. Try Walter Williams and John McWhorter, too. Among many others. I am betting meya doesn’t know many black folks.

  133. The guns. They scare the fat slovenly perfessers what stammer. They do.

  134. I am betting meya doesn’t know many black folks.

    She’s like Caric that way.

  135. Re: “Obama is a good man”.

    I think some of those voicing that opinion might be experiencing from a form of political Stockholm Syndrome.

  136. Stop oppressing me Caric! I have a right to my opinion you Nazi fuck!

    Fight the power!

    Question Authority!

    Fuck you Caric, sold out to THE MAN, DIDN’T YOU?

    DIDN’T YOU?!?

  137. But B Moe, you don’t understand, Thomas Sowell isn’t authentically Black, so he doesn’t count…

  138. I think we need to have a sit-in at Caric’s office.

  139. But B Moe, you don’t understand…

    Damn right I don’t, and I hope to fuck I never do.

  140. You can flush the toilet all you want, but sometimes the Caric just won’t go down the pipe.

    Hey, Ric. I’m the one that read your blog today. The Lieberman piece – outstanding work there. Completely pointless, off the mark, and unintelligible. But at least you’re consistent.

  141. …And Caric proves yet again that he is STILL the stupidest tool in the Left’s shed.

  142. I think Ted is the MAN.

    Dude be Bad-ASS!

  143. Sarah/Ted 2012!

  144. Go ahead…tell me that ain’t outlaw…

  145. Here is a little snippet from one of Caric’s recent posts:

    In my opinion, the rejection of conservativism by the American public is so thorough and so energetic that what conservatives really need to do is rethink their sense in which they’re American.

    The rest of the country is moving away from conservatives so fast that they really need to grapple with their sense of how they’re connected to the rest of American society.

    It is the stupid ones that are the most dangerous.

  146. Did anybody besides those that commented over there today on Patterico’s counter post “Here’s a fun comment thread” have the sense that I did that Patt’s commenters were running against him about 5 to 1 (without actually tallying, that is)? Anyhow, it didn’t seem as though his opinion fared all that well with the commentariot.

  147. I’d like to say this about Obama’s character,

    Hold on a sec, I gotta scratch the corner of my mouth…

    There, I think that about sums it up.

  148. Meaning and the location of meaning can no longer be ceded. But it will require more than just the superficial denial of specific uses in political discourse.

    It will require, to borrow Marx, a “long march through the institutions”.

  149. 147: Yes, the stupid is overwhelming. The TOOL doesn’t realize that this is NOT a democracy, but a Constitutional Federal Republic, and it doesn’t matter if EVERY american except us decides they want to be Communists tomorrow, WE’LL be Americans, THEY’LL be Communists living in once WAS America…

  150. Caric seems to think he’s still welcome here.

    Not so. Tedious fat fuck. I don’t need lectures from the Man.

  151. FIGHT THE POWER, MAN!!!

  152. It will require, to borrow Marx, a “long march through the institutions”.

    Or destroying them by making them irrelevant. Like ships of the line in an aircraft carrier war.

  153. Comment by Sdferr on 11/6 @ 7:28 pm #

    Did anybody besides those that commented over there today on Patterico’s counter post “Here’s a fun comment thread” have the sense that I did that Patt’s commenters were running against him about 5 to 1 (without actually tallying, that is)? Anyhow, it didn’t seem as though his opinion fared all that well with the commentariot.”

    Yeah. Shouldn’t be people out calling him a liar though. Totally fucking wrong yes, but liar or unprincipled no. I totally understand the desire to be gracious to a president, hell I had to do it to Clinton, but not this time. Not after the last 8 years, not after this jackass sits in a racist church for 20 years. That “good” man comment made me wanna throw up in my mouth. Patterico doesn’t have to agree with me and this is no insult to him for me to disagree it is a free country. He could tell me to go fuck a swordfish I really don’t care. I doubt he loses sleep over what some random internet guy calling himself Mr. Pink thinks either, but I definately think more along the lines of what is expressed in this post than the “good” man bullshit.

    When I hear “good” man I rather shout, to give a quote I made fun of when I heard it here, I AM NOT BEHOLDEN than OUTLAW. I am not so beholden to a political party that joining a fuckin “unity” party with these assholes as they shred our Constitution and shit on me, just because it makes me look like a “better” person. Fuck that shit. This man is not a “good” man by any sense of the word I have learned in my life.

  154. *sigh* I guess I have no use for this picture now.

  155. Neil Cavuto quote about a “good man” pulled from Hugh Hewitt’s site today:


    CAVUTO: Well, he was classy, magnanimous, a gentlemen, ripped for being out of touch, he chose just the right touch, a man who critics say only mangled his words, conjured just the right ones. I’m not talking about John McCain yesterday. I’m talking about president bush today. McCain gave a very classy speech. The president made a very classy gesture, offering only good words for the man who repudiated his run at the white house, but going one better, inviting Barack and Michelle Obama to the white house to see the place, talk about the place, and the pressures of the place, in private. These were not empty words. The president put a transition team in place months ago so that a smooth transfer of power could take place. President bush didn’t have the same offer when he came into office. Lots of hurtful words since then. He wasn’t even running this year, but it seemed everyone, including his own party’s nominee was running against him all year. If he minded, he really didn’t show it. I remember talking to the president on the White House south lawn about it. “Does it all bug you?” I asked him. “Nah,” he said, shrugging his shoulders and adding simply, “I understand.” A man of the people and the nation seemingly at war with him, some for good reason, and others apparently lacking any reason. He did nothing personally, always handled himself with dignity, not by what he said but precisely what he did not. I have read that the president is as kind to the elevator operator at White House as he is to a visiting [head of] state to the White House. Every time I see him, he sticks around and personally shakes the hand of each member of my crew. That is each member of my crew for one of our interviews, every single one of them, every single picture. Now, I know [these are] little things, but to me these are big things, that speak of a man far bigger than the petty things I see in the press or I hear in a harsh campaign. That ended today with a quiet gesture today, from a president who would be in his right to wag a certain finger, but instead simply [offered] something else: his hand. Not a popular thing to say, is it? But it was, it is, and he’s a good fellow.

  156. ‘Through the travail of ages,
    midst the pomp and toils of war,
    have I fought and strove and perished,
    countless times among the stars.
    As if through a glass and darkly,
    the age old strife I see,
    when I fought in many guises and many names,
    but always me.'” *

    * George S. Patton

  157. Nice picture, maggie.

  158. “You can all go to hell – I’m going to TEXAS!”
    — D. Crockett

  159. Just read that Patterico thread. And there’s Karl, concerned with my “personal attack” on Patterico.

    I responded, but I don’t know why I bother. If people want to say I have Obama Derangement Syndrome or some such nonsense, they can have at it. I’m going to speak my mind, and I won’t set up pre-emptive nicey nice posts so that I can be considered “one of the good conservatives.”

    Fuck that. I ain’t nobody’s house negro.

    OUTLAW!

  160. And there’s Karl, concerned with my “personal attack” on Patterico.

    lol. You know who else is a good guy who sometimes does bad things? thor.

  161. Pingback: On nobility

  162. Patterico has just (6:39pm pacific) posted yet another defense w/explanation, “On Obama and Good Men”, which attributes his motivation thus:


    This kerfuffle has its roots in what I wanted to teach my daughter about political disagreement. I have already written that, after we voted and we were awaiting election results, this episode happened:

    I have told her that Obama will probably win, and she was sad. “I don’t want Obama to be my President!” she said. I told her that McCain and Obama are both good men — and although I disagree with Obama, if he wins, we have to say: “Oh well, we tried. But he will still be my President.”

    She’s still not very happy. Nor am I. But I want her to learn that no matter who wins, he’s a good man trying to do what he thinks is right for the country.

    I thought that was an important lesson for her to learn.

    He does posit a sort of “either a good man or a bad man” thing I don’t see the need for. There’s a lot more he has to say about McCain too.

  163. Yo, nigga – what up?

  164. Patterico is Che Che!

  165. But I want her to learn that no matter who wins, he’s a good man trying to do what he thinks is right for the country.

    Heil Obama!

  166. But I want her to learn that no matter who wins, he’s a good man trying to do what he thinks is right for the country.

    Dude. What kind of fucking bullshit is that? I mean, seriously?

  167. “The criticism of Bush is frankly disgusting. He is quite simply the best man — the best human being — who has held the office since Lincoln.”

    I don’t necessarily disagree and can’t fault either his intent nor his sincerity. His implementation, unfortunately, comes up a bit short. His fault? Who knows, maybe he simply chose the wrong people. And, frankly, I don’t really fault their motivations or sincerity either, just their abilities.

    Lamentably, that assessment doesn’t cut it with a whole lot of people. You can impugne their intelligence (I’m happy to do so–with someone like Caric it is so easy and so enjoyable) but it comes back to the conservatives having had the opportunity to do what they claimed was needed and then not being able to pulll it off. There was not, of course, any assistance, support or slack from the other side. OK, if that is how they want to play. I’ll happily go outlaw. And I can be more of a SOB than Ram Emanuel. Fuck em!

    And Caric is simply lucky Jeff doesn’t rip his head off and shit down his throat. Intellectually and argumentatively, in fact, that is exactly what Jeff has done.

  168. Re: “My President”

    Yes. But not my commander. I ain’t in yo’ fuckin’ Army no mo. Bitch.

  169. Holy crap @ Patterico.

    When did conservatives start believing that bad people don’t exist?

  170. I too am a Constitutional originalist, particularly when it comes to the Bill of Rights, which both parties have savaged brutally over the past 40 years (Power always seeks more), but I don’t understand how the abuses of said Bill of Rights under the Bush Administration translate to a theme of “Obama isn’t a nice guy.”

    My lying eyes tell me he’s pretty personally cautious, and most definitely a nice guy. There are few Republicans who know him who would say otherwise. Perhaps a list of Republicans who think he’s not a nice guy would help refine my opinion.

    I want a strong opposition party. I do not trust Power in any form. I’m a libertarian-leaning, increasingly anarchistic free speech and Bill of Rights absolutist. (YMMV on personal interpretation.) I need the GOP to abandon the politics of hate of gays and minorities (policy speaking, not, of course, personally speaking) because it’s just stupid. One example: Abortion. My God considers overpopulation to be a far bigger problem for His children than abortion; He aborts himself some 30% of all pregnancies, and the “evidence” such as it is strongly suggest He doesn’t dabble in the details very much. Horrible things happen to wonderful people all the time.

    One of my all-time favorite The Onion headlines: “God answers paralyzed boy’s prayers: ‘No,’ says God.” Seems sort of transparently obvious to me.

    Put another way, why didn’t the GOP just stay home and pray instead of vote?

    I want fiscal conservatism, social libertarianism, and international prudence. I want the tax code trashed. Along with the accounting rules. I want personal decisions left in personal hands. (See, “Shiavo, Terry)

    I want my VP nominees to know their asses from a hole in the ground. “Country first,” my ass. Palin was the most transparently cynical pick in the history of VP’s.

    C’mon, “conservatives.” Give us some ideas that will translate to 21st Century realities, stop worrying about bin Laden’s ability to swim those camels across the sea to convert us all to Islam, and start getting back to basics, like the Constitution you’ve so joyfully abandoned.

    Tactics are dead in a world in need of strategy.

  171. I want my VP nominees to know their asses from a hole in the ground.

    John O: go fuck yourself with a rusty crowbar.

    Thanks.

  172. I find your ideas intriguing John O and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  173. I don’t have a newsletter.

    S,P & B, thank you for your thoughtful commentary. Sarah 2012!

    Perhaps she’ll know the continents by then.

  174. John O —

    Might want to do a site search for Schiavo. Then get back to me.

    Oh. And “nice” and “good” aren’t the same thing.

  175. S,P & B, thank you for your thoughtful commentary.

    It was more than you deserved.

    Come back when you have accomplishments that amount to a hundredth of Palin’s.

  176. John O must be new here. He thinks he’s wandered onto some other kind of site, I think — where the cartoons in his head frolic and play.

  177. But I already do!

    I know Africa is a continent, I know what the VP’s job responsibilities are (Cheney notwithstanding), I know which countries were involved in NAFTA!

    One thing a devoted anti-authoritarian knows deeply and without doubt: You don’t have to be very “accomplished” to get elected in this country.

    And that’s another thing. The anti-intellectual wing of the GOP is a loser. If you want, keep at it. But I sure wish you wouldn’t.

  178. oh. I don’t really have a recipe for making yummier politics to where it’s just how I like it. Palatable works. It’s different than quesadillas I think.

  179. I don’t really believe any of the shit spread about Palin’s knowledge of geography, but given my druthers, I think a firm grasp of human nature goes a damn sight further than being able to name and spell the Capitol of Chad.

  180. But I already do!

    No. You don’t.

    You’re a gullible fuckstick who believes every lie that the media tells him, and can regurgitate the lies on cue.

    You’re a fucking tool.

    Now, go fuck yourself with one.

  181. OK, find me some Republicans who know him personally that consider him a bad man.

  182. My, you are such the knower John O. And when did you interview Gov. Palin, pray tell?

  183. John: crowbar.

    Thanks.

  184. LOL.

    I don’t believe ANYTHING anyone tells me. You’re talking out your proverbial butt, which is SOP, and you’ll not find me delving into what you know or don’t know based on words on a page.

    Except, there ARE clues…

  185. Well, it’s FOX “News” and the GOP insiders telling me, so perhaps you’re right. I should consider the sources.

    Probably about the last time you interviewed Obama, to answer your question.

    Wow.

  186. Bill of Rights absolutist? Like yelling “fire” in a crowded theater? Libel? Slander? YMMV.

    Epic Fail!!1!eleventyone!11!

  187. I don’t believe ANYTHING anyone tells me.

    BWAH HA HA HA HAaaaaa. have you asked Obama how many states there are lately?

  188. I don’t believe ANYTHING anyone tells me.

    Yes. In your infinite wisdom, you somehow arrived at the conclusion that a woman who has operated a successful business, was elected governor of her state over the opposition of her own party, and successfully negotiated a $40 billion pipeline deal which had been stalled for decades is a total imbecile, and, by SHEER COINCIDENCE, your snarks JUST HAPPEN to be the same snarks that are being parroted by the media.

    Crowbar, bitch.

    And get to work on that free gas thing.

  189. John, be sure to tell your cousin Barry you came here and spoke truth to power.

  190. Concern trolling, it’s the newest after-election special treat.

    Brought to a blog near you by those wonderful inventive folks at Camp Obama.

    Franchises soon available and mandatory in a neighborhood near you.

  191. John O
    Good God, we’ve found another one!

  192. By the way, is Axelrod still paying you guys or what?

    ‘Cause you might want to check out this story.

  193. Again, keep up the good work. I HONESTLY DO want a viable opposition party, because I distrust power in a serious way. I’m pretty sure I’ve been hassling The Man for longer than most of you have been alive.

    I just hate stupidity even worse. I vote third party in virtually every election, because I don’t think either “major” party is anything but beholden to their own special interests. I can get behind a whole bunch of conservative principles (well, “old school” conservative principles) if they could be presented as something other than “we’ll die if we don’t do this!”

    And Jeff, I know there were some conservatives who thought the Schiavo thing was nonsense, good on ya. The “party,” however, did not.

  194. I’m pretty sure I’ve been hassling The Man for longer than most of you have been alive.

    I’m pretty sure that the mean IQ on this site is at least two standard deviations higher than yours.

  195. OK, I just can’t compete with the intellectual rigor out here. Have a good night, y’all.

  196. I just hate stupidity even worse. I vote third party in virtually every election

    I hope you know where the band-aids are.

  197. OK, I just can’t compete with the intellectual rigor out here.

    You’re not worthy of our intellectual rigor, John.

    Sorry.

  198. LOL, again. S, B, and P is one serious intellectual.

    I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts my IQ is higher than 95% of you out here. Which is conservative (pun intended), since that’s what it is in the general population, not that it matters a whit.

  199. OK, I just can’t compete with the intellectual rigor out here.

    I finally agree with something you wrote, absolutely! Yay!

  200. Ick. His comments were loud like those people in the elevator what talk about their 401Ks.

  201. I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts my IQ is higher than 95% of you out here.

    170 here.

    You?

  202. “I need the GOP to abandon the politics of hate of gays and minorities”

    You have any examples of these? Any? I know what you’re going to say about gays, but what about minorities? What politics of hate toward minorities are you talking about?

  203. oh it’s iq now. get him, buttons!

    you are so in for it.

  204. You win, SP&G.

    Interesting how your ad homs reflect it, though.

    Again, IQ doesn’t mean squat, as you so beautifully demonstrate. Not unlike Jimmy Carter, I suppose. *sigh*

    All right, as much as truly do love this stuff, I’m clearly out of my league.

  205. John?

    Anyone?

    Anyone?

    Bueller?

  206. “But I already do!

    I know Africa is a continent, I know what the VP’s job responsibilities are (Cheney notwithstanding), I know which countries were involved in NAFTA!”

    I don’t think John O understands the term “accomplishments”.

  207. Damn, S.P.B. I only rate a 130. Of course, I rate a little lower wrt to the Exectuive Function thingy, so I tend to do stupid shit now and then…

  208. OK, find me some Republicans who know him personally that consider him a bad man.

    Bush? What does that have to do with anything?

  209. Interesting how your ad homs reflect it, though.

    Try making a valid point instead of repeating snarks you’ve absorbed from the media.

    Until then: crowbar, bitch.

  210. I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts my IQ is higher than 95% of you out here … not that it matters a whit.

    which is why you brought it up, right?

    DAZZLE US, JOHN O! please?

  211. I do stupid shit all the time, Warren.

    Like deciding to go to grad school rather than cashing in on that mad dot com money.

  212. It might just be me but people what still LOL are less intimidating than those super tall supermodel girls what come to castings at my building at work. I never know where to look and then sometimes they hazard speaking and they’re British and it’s too weird.

  213. Crap! Almost forgot! Good luck with your agenda!

    The plural of anecdote is not data. So this is just one of many examples. http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20081106_ap_crossburnedonlawnofobamasupportersinnj.html

    Here’s some data: The GOP got their asses significantly kicked in every non-white voting bloc. I know, that’s not a valid point, and it’s all the media’s fault, particularly since they give TV time to every black conservative in the country.

    Night all!

  214. I’m fairly sure that JohnO was hiiiiiiiigggghhh.

  215. Notice how John O went for the “It’s not how big it is, it’s how you use it” line… Classy. Real classy.

    Ya can’t just walk inna door and shit on people and expect them to lap it up, John O. These folks are a bit sophomoric at times, but they are some damned smart and very informed people. You need to bring your “A” game around here.

  216. It might just be me but people what still LOL are less intimidating than those super tall supermodel girls what come to castings at my building at work.

    eff you, happyfeet. oh wait… I’m not intimidating. teh cuteness tends to lessen that effect.

  217. fight for your right to party[libertarian]
    john’s a beastie boy[the gay one]
    he be illin’
    with out a license

  218. Philly? Hmmmm…Is that the same Philly that had black Obama supporters with night sticks intimidating white voters? So push. Thanks for not answering the question, though.

  219. I see John has retreated to a safe location where he can control the discourse, complete with pingback.

    That’s it, John. Declare victory from the safety of your own site.

  220. Well, S.P.B. I did score a 145 once, but I was sober that time, so it doesn’t count. Last one I did sober, I took it a speed challenge. Scored a 114 in eight minutes flat…

    Grad school, eh? You a glutton for punishment, or what? heh.

  221. So, John O! links a story about a burning cross… nobody has been caught or listed as a suspect.. but of course, it must be Republicans.

    I know, that’s not a valid point

    so you’ve got nothing so far…

  222. Whaa? Is Mossberg buttons? Is buttons Mossberg? Or is that … homage … ? I like buttons to be buttons and Mossberg to be Mossberg I think.

  223. i queue for the paper of toilets
    i queasy for the politics of sleazy
    i quack for a president of black
    i quibble with ur dribble
    i quoth the raven

    “on the second day of kwanza-my baby gave to me…”

  224. Great point, maggie. It could have been a bitter union democrat. The only two real racists I know are democrats. Funny that.

  225. …I know, that’s not a valid point…

    A valid point about what John? Do you actually know what is was you meant to say?

    Oh, I see this is what you meant to say:

    …These people aren’t interested in anything but hate….

    But of course you don’t know, you don’t have a “clue” what we are interested in.

  226. Great point, maggie. It could have been a bitter union democrat.

    I’m guessing a “libertarian-leaning, increasingly anarchistic free speech and Bill of Rights absolutist”.

  227. Sorry, buttons! I thought you weren’t available, so I took liberties with your style.

  228. oh. Nicely done.

  229. hf got a crush on me!
    unless ur making fun of me
    or u want to do the whole carl cameron/shep steward make out thing
    cuz i’d rather drink buttermilk

  230. John, if you’re still reading (and I’m sure that you are):

    Your statements are neither original nor cogent. They’ve been hashed out here a million times before.

    You know nothing about this site or the people who post here.

    We have only a limited amount of time on this earth, and I intend to spend as little of it as possible arguing with someone who assumes that I’m a cartoon character.

  231. i have a ‘style’ ?
    a sign of the a-pack of lips

  232. soI’mfondofyouyoudon’thaftamakeabigdealaboutitjeez

  233. When John referred to being an absolutist, I think he meant he likes Swedish Vodka.

  234. mr. potato head
    there
    i said it

  235. Not to be confused with those ASBO lootists that you might encounter during a British riot.

  236. “Would you please Google Thomas Sowell, and then take your moronic little racist ass somewhere else to read what you find and leave us the hell alone.”

    I’ve read some Sowell. I don’t think he wants this country governed with slavery.

  237. Temptation is Satan’s desire. :-)

    I see the actual “data point” was again, completely ignored.

    Sign me,

    Glutton for Punishment

    P.S. Y’all can think what you want. The Obama Administration is not going to let go of the Executive Power granted to them by the Cheney/Bush Admin, and it is going to piss me off. I really, truly, for all my life have mistrusted authority of any kind, and everyone who knows me worth a crap will support it. We’re stuck with some, that’s just plain fact. Hated Clinton’s libertarian cred. Hate the evisceration of the 4th (may as well trash it, IMO), hate infractions on the 1st. And as for the “Fire in the theater” exemption? I would repeal it. High tech fire alarms and all. Nazi’s and KKK marches? Right on. I also support the rights of people to show up and shout them down, peacefully. Ideas matter.

  238. Clinton’s libertarian cred?

  239. i have a ’style’?

    It was meant as a compliment, buttons! I’m sure I didn’t do you justice.

  240. Sorry, happyfeet. I meant he had none, despite being a known dope-smoking pussy hound.

  241. Shhh… he’s rolling. Germans will be bombing Pearl Harbor any post now.

  242. my boy scout ‘leader’ tried to take me into the woods one night
    then i went to confession

    if i had had a camera-phone
    we’d all be rich!
    no more fundraisers

  243. Oh, ideas matter ‘feets. Like this one:

    …Executive Power granted to them by the Cheney/Bush Admin…

    Granted to them. Cheney-Bush, no less! What a tool.

  244. So…John O walks in the door, trash talks everyone in the house…and then goes all HuffPo because the victims of his tirade didn’t kneel and kiss his hand in gratitude?

    Heh. Talk about not examining your own premises…

  245. OK, here. It’s long and probably boring to most of you, but it’s about the best I can do in terms of explaining my world view, and it was written a long, long time ago. Well pre-Obama.

    Judge for yourself.

    http://jonorato42.wordpress.com/the-political-plight-of-average-joe/

    (Don’t give a crap about blog hits. I have a job. And a passion for politics, and the health of my country. If you want, I’ll copy and paste the whole thing here to save you the pain of having to visit.)

  246. what a little FUN community!
    i am honored!

    seriously

    but-honor blackman-Grrrr
    pussy galore!

  247. Yeah, what’s up with that?

    Clinton didn’t even inhale.

  248. my boy scout ‘leader’ tried to take me into the woods one night

    Did he tell you what merit badge you’d be earning?

  249. oh. I get the Clinton thing now I guess. But Sdferr has a good point there. And Baracky will be more ostentatious in his exercise of power than Bush ever thought about being I think. He’ll have flourishes and backdrops galore. You’ll see.

  250. aw, he thinks we care what he “thinks”

  251. tenderfoot[sorry]
    got my swimming merit badge!
    cuz they wouldn’t let u in the wa wa without one
    and-really-what’s the point of going to boy scout camp onna lake
    if u can’t swim
    i mean- i can always eat green eggs at home
    and the flies?
    the fl;ies always call my mouth “home base”
    let’s do some banjo pickin’!

  252. John has the world view of a terrarium.

  253. I see the actual “data point” was again, completely ignored.

    ??? you said yourself it wasn’t valid.

  254. oh. There’s these footnotey things.

  255. There’s these footnotey things.

    oh gawd… it’s serious.

  256. Ok, I gave it a shot, but within the first paragraph John demonstrated he couldn’t handle a simple concept like immanent threat so as to distinguish between “before” immanent and “after” immanent. Woops, resulting in fail. And with that, I quit reading.

  257. It reads kind of manic to me to be honest.

  258. i believe it was called the
    ‘cream” merit badge
    to put on my dirty ginny pasta
    but i was always happy w/the tomats

    ahh-the irish!
    a
    joke- they found a thousand year old time capsule in dublin

    @-what did the mystery reveal?/[my son
    recipes

    favorite irish recipes

  259. And get a load of his links list (with commentary)

  260. Wow, that’s brilliant. I’ve never read anything so…so…zzzzzzzz

  261. *sigh*, again.

    The data point was that the GOP has lost all non-white voting blocs. And you question my intelligence. And I question your willingness to debate serious problems.

    It IS sort of perversely fun, I have to admit.

    I will sacrifice some level of personal safety to secure my country’s heritage. The odds of my government messing with me are so far higher than my getting blown up as to be absurd to talk about.

  262. The hypocrisy and blind ideological stupidity we’re wallowing in right now as a nation looks from here in the libertarian middle very similar to that displayed by the September 11 pilots.

    Um. Footnote?

  263. :-)

    Big fan of David Foster Wallace, happyfeet. Couldn’t format the footnotes at the time, never bothered to fix them, nobody reads me, as you all might say, with good reason. Actually, catching up, you already have.

    So they turned into endnotes, Coulter-style.

    In any case, I would be surprised if anyone who was able to stand it would find it particularly partisan. As I joke to my family and friends, it was just the first chapter in my Kaczinsky-screed.

  264. I will sacrifice some level of personal safety to secure my country’s heritage.

    Me too! Tomorrow I’m going to a casino on an Indian Reservation, and I always bet on black.

  265. Contrary to all the brilliant Frist-like psychologists out here, everyone who actually knows me has heard me say, “Beware The Man” for 20 years plus, in some truly small and insignificant circumstances.

    The Dems are now The Man.

  266. ok. Well stop by and we can do that debating serious problems thing I guess. So far mostly all I’ve got is authority bad … do not trust and such. Baracky is an existential threat I think. Bush has I think been vindicated as far as not being one of them goes.

  267. Somehow John, I guess you think that we think that voting blocs determined by some arbitrary racial or ethnic definition are salient? I don’t know about everyone else commenting here, but for my part, they are not. And I think, so much the worse for those who do think in that way, as they have taken their eye off what is important in human relationships, to be dazzled by nonsense. What counts for you, it seems, is what pigeon hole someone can be put in. What counts for me is an individual’s virtue, curiosity and willingness to learn. Liberty, in another word.

  268. wtf is a ‘non-white’

    i will sacrifice some level of YOUR safety
    next blow up
    keep ur elbows close to ur sides
    and yammer/blab on about…blah freaking blah
    i’m a patriot/kill kill-no retreat/no surrender!
    your roosters are coming home to dance-CHICKEN!
    keep the churchill speak
    i’ll be in the tub/with scotch!

    u are patriotic?

  269. JohnO, if you’re talking about “the Man” taking away my right to have a bazooka, and I think you are, I am so in…

  270. Vindicated? You like your personal conversations being mocked? You like the politicization of the DOJ, not to mention every other governmental agency in pursuit of an agenda?

    That known commie-leftie-hippie D.W. Eisenhower had it exactly right when it came to power structures. That speech made him a hero of mine.

    You like your Bill of Rights?

    Authority isn’t “bad,” it’s indifferent to your interests as an individual human being. Even while it is pretending otherwise. But some problems, public problems, require The Man to intervene. I just wish they would stay out of the private ones.

  271. Only 95%, John O? Not exactly Mensa material then, are you?

  272. http://www.aapsonline.org/brochures/cicero.htm
    Cicero’s Prognosis
    by Millard F. Caldwell. 1965.

  273. bazooka joe!
    had a lil cartoony thing w/it
    baracky joe!
    teh plumbers are so flushed!
    cup o joe?
    i don’t think so

  274. Sdferr, no, I’m saying that for whatever reason, “minorities” aren’t voting GOP, and that’s a long-term problem for all of us who don’t so much care about our whiteness.

    I want a viable opposition, whether you all like it, believe it, or not. I want my Bill of Rights back.

    Bazookas? As a libertarian, I support it. But if one is used for evil, I also support the death penalty. And English for all Americans, language being probably the most fundamental glue of society.

    You’re all going to really love this: I’m a bit of a Randian, though with age and wisdom I’ve come to understand the flaws in her logic. And the one thing about her work that really drives me nuts? Absolutely zero, nada, null set sense of humor, anywhere. That’s a big hole.

  275. Nope, not Mensa material. Glad sometimes; genius is often tortured, and even more often crazy.

    Close enough. Objectivist, still to this day.

  276. And I don’t think Obama is going to do it. (Give me my Bill of Rights back.)

    But it is too early to tell.

  277. You hit the nail on the head…this is exactly what I was tried to say on my blog yesterday (I think you did a better job of saying it!).

    I’ve had liberals commenting on my blog since The One pulled off the win…because I dare to continue to point out his weaknesses and the danger of his policies and world view, I have been told that I am full of “hate” and “questioning the patriotism” of Obama.

    My consistent reply is this, basically: If you believe this country is in need of a “remake” (Obama’s word), that we should implement a Socialist economic system, that babies born out of botched abortions should die, that the Free Speech of some of our society should be squelched, if citizens should not have the right to keep and bear arms, and if you believe the life-changing initimidations and sleazy attacks on private citizens is a normal mode of business—-then, an emphatic NO, you are not patriotic.

    Consider me an outlaw…because I am not backing down to the Left’s demands of relabeling debate, conservative ideas, and dissent as “hateful”, racist, and non-unifying….

    I agree with you wholeheartedly…keep up the fight!

  278. …that’s a [...] problem for all of us…

    No, see John, that’s a problem for someone else. Not my problem. Their problem, if they wish it to be. Or not. Their choice.

  279. sharprightturn, we already HAVE a “soft” socialist economic system, best illustrated by our tax code and our elected officials health care and pensions.

    No system of government is perfect, no “pure” ideal is worth a crap. The real world just isn’t that dogmatic. The Chinese have embraced one helluva a lot of capitalism (not to mention one helluva lot of our property and debt), and no one (well, except maybe here) would argue that a benevolent dictatorship would be a far more efficient means of governing.

    Some things are worth socializing, in my opinion, anything that can’t be accomplished at the individual level. It doesn’t much matter to a New Mexican’s strong environmental policy if AZ is spewing shit into the air next door. Lake Erie once caught on fire. Those things cannot be solved at the individual level. I want government OUT of all things outside the tangible, real (not imagined, like gay marriage or abortion) public interest, based on reason and facts. The details can be hashed out from there.

    What are conservative ideas now? That was my original question, long since forgotten. And tell me how the last 8 years have embodied them.

  280. cause the Cuyahoga river, goes smoking through my dreams
    burn on, big river, burn on

  281. John O, you just blew whatever cred you had by claiming to be an objectivist…when you are obviously nothing of the kind.

    damn, people…words friggin’ matter…

    Doesn’t anyone use a dictionary anymore? (No. I can spell. I just can’t typoe)

  282. And I HATED the idea of socializing Wall St., and wrote my Republican congressman in no uncertain terms about it.

    Count me among those who would rather spend $700B on some single Mom’s health care than some greedy Wall St. fucktard liar’s landscaping nut. Same for the auto industry. They’ve been behind the curve for too long to forgive. Getting you ass kicked in the free market is not an excuse for me to fund your incompetence.

  283. How so, Warren? I submit we all have our biases, by I try like hell to look at things objectively.

  284. Hell, I read Atlas Shrugged no less than five times in my youth, and have a first edition copy. The appeal of the talented individual still resonates with me.

    I just don’t think we can go it alone. I don’t think we’re unsocial creatures. I don’t think all problems can be solved at the individual level.

    But when it comes to the “social” political issues, I think most can. No State who has legalized gay marriage shows any tangible adverse impacts, and by “State” I mean government, internationally or domestically.

    It’s not like they’re going to procreate us heteros into oblivion, folks. Nor is it like homosexuality isn’t a historical fact of life, and in many cultures, not cared about throughout history.

  285. Well, John O, tonight, ya walked inna door and insulted everyone inna house. A priori. First post. Then you tried to play the I.Q. card when people called you on it. Suddenly, IQ didn’t matter anymore…and then you kept insulting people. You not only questioned their knowledge and education, but you cast aspersions on their intelligence and life experiences. …and these folks are not readily insulted. They don’t take offense to every little thing that anyone says.

    You’re a capital “L” Looter, John O. You’re not an objectivist. Like so many people, you learned something, but then you never used that knowledge to examine your own premises. Something that Ayn Rand was really trying to teach people. Instead, you took what you learned and applied it to everyone else in order to make yourself appear to be somehow better than everyone else. It’s an ego problem, John. That isn’t objectivism at all. You’re a Looter. You’ve even looted Rand’s work in order to promote your own value above that of the people here at Protein Wisdom..

  286. Here comes the judge
    when a man loves a man
    Percy Sledged George Takei
    propositions are for fags
    so teach your children well

  287. Please explain how I insulted everyone in the house.

    Here is the original post. Please, tell me how I personally insulted anyone.

    http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=13609#comment-579428

    Take it a line at time.

  288. You know how you’re sitting at the bar with your buddies shooting the shit, and this guy comes in and gets in the middle of you all even though you don’t know him, talking real loud, telling you the same stories about his ex-wife over and over again even though obviously you’re nodding wearily because you so don’t care and trying to talk around him to your friend but it’s hard and you wish this was the kinda drunk that would just sorta spend time listening and be more circumspect with his contributions to the conversation?

    Don’t be that guy.

  289. Also noting that I was NOT the original IQ card poster.

    And no, I don’t think it matters, as I said in my first post on the matter. “First.” Look it up.

  290. Sorry, Lee. I know I don’t belong in this club.

    Thanks again for the substantive post.

  291. That “Looter” comment kinda stung a bit, didn’t it, John O?

    Your objectivist cred is gonzoed, John. Give it up.

  292. Argghhh, again! LOL. I was first. My apologies.

    *blush*

    I still have not heard ONE SINGLE conservative principle defended coherently. I’ve tried hard not to be personal, and I’ve tried to be civil. I want IDEAS, because as I’ve said repeatedly, I don’t trust authority, and now one party has too much, at least historically speaking, and certainly one could argue that we need one-party rule to balance the abuses of our LAST one-party rule.

    I want to know what the conservative agenda is moving forward. That’s all my original post asked.

  293. “Looter” comment? I don’t recall it. Number? I’ll go back and read it.

    I can assure you it didn’t sting. LOL.

  294. It’s not in that you don’t belong, it’s a matter of your introduction. It’s better to ease into a group than storm it I think.

    It may just be me. I’ve been commenting here for years, and I still don’t know the names of Happyfeets turtles.

  295. Can someone please explain how my introduction “stormed” the place?

    I’ve tried to explain how I think a viable conservative movement can move forward. Nobody else has. It’s all just been personal attacks.

  296. Sorry for the repost.

    I was trying to show the FNG where his insults were

    Sarah Palin knows more than you think you do, or ever will.

    No one I know is worried bin Laden is sending a fleet of swimming camels to convert us to Islam and it is insulting to conflate terrorists plowing planes into the WTC with a cartoonish idea of camels swimming across the Pacific with Koran’s held in giant buck teeth and then going door knocking on Sunday mornings racing ahead of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

  297. Gapagus and darwins, lee. I have to go to bed now. John for real there’s something jarring about how demandy you get.

  298. and I still don’t know the names of Happyfeets turtles.

    um… darwin and… oh, he said them just the other day.

  299. C’mon, “conservatives.” Give us some ideas that will translate to 21st Century realities, stop worrying about bin Laden’s ability to swim those camels across the sea to convert us all to Islam, and start getting back to basics, like the Constitution you’ve so joyfully abandoned.

    I thought that was coming on a bit strong, for example.

    Do you want to focus a smidgen, and have a dialog, or just talk to the cartoons in your head?

  300. Can someone please explain how my introduction “stormed” the place?

    honkin’ long post that covered lots o’ crazy assumptions about “conservatives” which, if you paid attention, most hear prefer to self identify as “classical liberal” and so far the rest of your comments have been, “Well I think.. blah, blah, blah…. please like me, you racist.”

  301. mmmmm,, cupcake batter and beer. sorry, everyone else.

  302. I suppose that’s why the GOP masterminds kept her from any “serious” (and believe me, I say that in some jest) serious interview.

    She may be more than I think, I will grant her that. Why didn’t they show us?

    And sorry, happyfeet, it is true. I want this country to engage more in political debate. Nothing good has ever been achieved without a little conflict, but I repeat, I have done my best not to pretend to understand the life history, psychology, and nurture of any of the posters out here. If it seems “demandy” to ask for some coherent explanation of conservative principles moving forward, I apologize.

    I sincerely want to see them. I fear Power. I fear political power, I fear religious power, I fear Corporate power, I fear ALL power. I want to be left alone, personally. I want to contribute to viable public problems.

    Sue me.

  303. You probably shouldn’t be so fearful. It seems to make you kinda clingy.

    I think you need to learn the serenity prayer.

  304. It wasn’t personal, Lee. Give me that. The GOP intelligentsia is currently meeting to determine the very question I was asking.

    What will the GOP be moving forward? And why doesn’t anyone take that on in any other way but to attack me for asking?

    And let me throw this out there for fun: What percentage of the vote would the GOP get without the racists, homophobes, xenophobes, and LIV voters?

    You tell me.

  305. LOL, Lee. One of my favorite lines among those who know me well is Father Costanza’s “Serenity NOW!” episode. When I’m railing against the Dilbertness in Corporate America, get told to calm down, I often use it.

    Everyone laughs.

    To quote the great Heinlein, “Man is the animal who laughs.”

  306. me, me, me, EVERYONE LOVE ME!!!! WHY DON’T YOU GUYS!? HUH?

  307. LOVES. gah, i cannot type at the moment.

  308. What percentage of the vote would the GOP get without the racists, homophobes, xenophobes, and LIV voters?

    What makes you think these subsets are exclusively Republican? You need to get over the bigotry in your own head, because most of what you fear is your own projection. But you know something of psychology, so I don’t have to tell you that!

  309. What percentage of the vote would the GOP get without the racists, homophobes, xenophobes, and LIV voters?

    I’ll tell you if you tell me what percentage of the GOP is comprised of what you believe to be the racists, homophobes, xenophobes, and LIV voters. And how you define racist, homophobic, xenophobic, and what the hell a LIV voter is.

    Hint: opposing same sex marriage doesn’t make you homophobic, and desiring control over immigration is not xenophobic. Opposing affirmative action isn’t racist, and I still can’t figure out LIV.

  310. lee, I think LIV is an acronym for low information voters, but he doesn’t mean that in a bad way!

  311. More personal attacks. Why would anyone on any web forum give a crap if anyone loved them? Or even liked them? I just want to know what “we” should do moving forward. No wonder “we” lost so badly.

    Good luck with your “agenda.”

    Good Lord.

    And for the record, most all people of any political stripe, who actually know who I am, indeed like me, and many of them love me. Yours doesn’t matter. I would prefer you respect me for trying to ask some serious questions, but that was obviously folly. My bad.

    Enjoy your collective circle jerk. I consider myself useless, and appropriately ostracized. It is hard not to think you’re all a microcosm of the current GOP problem.

    See, Michelle Malkin and Eric E. Kick all the non-believers out. Good luck.

  312. And for the record, most all people of any political stripe, who actually know who I am, indeed like me, and many of them love me.

    LOL

  313. I would prefer you respect me for trying to ask some serious questions,

    like, “why are you all so racist?” oh, yeah, I take that one seriously.

    oh, and godbothering. Love being accused of being a christianist.

  314. It was, late night typo. My bad, again. LI voters would have been proper.

    Once again, those pesky facts. The GOP OWNS racism, xenophobia, and homophobia. This is not to say that there are not Dems who feel the same way.

    I’m speaking about the wad, in the same way anecdotes are not the plural of data. Read. The. Voting. Numbers.

    This time I’m done. I’ve enjoyed it, if for no other reason than to get a glimpse into another paradigm.

    Thanks for engaging me in my questions. And again, good luck.

  315. It is hard not to think you’re all a microcosm of the current GOP problem.

    I’m not a Republican, so think what you want.

  316. Enjoy your collective circle jerk. I consider myself useless, and appropriately ostracized. It is hard not to think you’re all a microcosm of the current GOP problem.

    That was devastating.

    Good thing I looked up the serenity prayer earlier after I mentioned it. Otherwise I would be inconsolable.

  317. The GOP OWNS racism, xenophobia, and homophobia.

    You keep saying this, but have yet to back it up with any facts. or anything like an argument.

  318. This has been a definite – if surreal – twist on the Axelrod concern astrotrufers…

    …Is there a guy wearin’ a cheap suit and standin’ inna corner smokin’ a cigarette…or is that just me?

  319. I think his argument is that because we vote on principals rather than race we are racist. Or some thing.

    He never really got past arguing by assertion. With the emphasis on ass.

  320. …Is there a guy wearin’ a cheap suit and standin’ inna corner smokin’ a cigarette…or is that just me?

    Yeah, and he reeks of bathtub gin!

  321. And that cigarette…it smells funny.

  322. I clicked on his link, and began to read, but I started hearing the teacher’s voice in the Peanuts cartoon. That trumpety – wah, wah, wah…, and I couldn’t take it.

  323. John O:

    It’s funny that you would jettison the only position that the Republicans firmly stick to that is different from the Democrats.

    The republicans lost because they spent money like drunken sailors. The same thing happened in Canada with the Mulroney government. They nibbled at the edges, but always spent more than they taxed. Made them look like mean spirited incompetents.

    As for minorities, it may simply be a matter of approaching them. Bloc voting comes from artificial issues such as race. There are probably a similar right/left split within hispanic or black voters, but the issues are defined as oppressor/victims.

    In Canada, the conservatives made an effort to talk to immigrant communities which historically voted Liberal. Encouraged ethnic candidates, gave full party support to them, had the PM show up. In other words fought the ground. And similar to Jeff’s point, didn’t concede the accusations. And they made considerable gains.

    The gay marriage proposition won in California.

    As I said, if republicans had been fiscally responsible, the situation would be very different. There may not have been the fiscal meltdown during the election.

    Derek

  324. I too am a Constitutional originalist, particularly when it comes to the Bill of Rights, which both parties have savaged brutally over the past 40 years (Power always seeks more), but I don’t understand how the abuses of said Bill of Rights under the Bush Administration translate to a theme of “Obama isn’t a nice guy.”

    Strawman, non-sequitur,a dn gthe “savaged brutally” bit is just buillshit.

    My lying eyes tell me he’s pretty personally cautious, and most definitely a nice guy. There are few Republicans who know him who would say otherwise. Perhaps a list of Republicans who think he’s not a nice guy would help refine my opinion.

    Interesting twist on appeal to authority.

    I want a strong opposition party. I do not trust Power in any form. I’m a libertarian-leaning, increasingly anarchistic free speech and Bill of Rights absolutist. (YMMV on personal interpretation.) I need the GOP to abandon the politics of hate of gays and minorities (policy speaking, not, of course, personally speaking) because it’s just stupid. One example: Abortion. My God considers overpopulation to be a far bigger problem for His children than abortion; He aborts himself some 30% of all pregnancies, and the “evidence” such as it is strongly suggest He doesn’t dabble in the details very much. Horrible things happen to wonderful people all the time.

    Over generalizations abound, character assassination, guilt by association….

    One of my all-time favorite The Onion headlines: “God answers paralyzed boy’s prayers: ‘No,’ says God.” Seems sort of transparently obvious to me.

    Put another way, why didn’t the GOP just stay home and pray instead of vote?

    Compositional fallacy

    I’ve tried to explain how I think a viable conservative movement can move forward.

    No. You haven’t.

    It’s all just been personal attacks.

    Agreed. The evidence is above.

  325. Man, I love having days off.

    Lee, please explain to me how opposing same-sex marriage isn’t homophobia.

    Maggie, please. Are you denying the indisputable voting numbers? Are you suggesting the GOP owns the support of the college educated, the gay, the black, brown, Asian, or any other non-whitey?

    See, I call that “data.” And frankly it worries me.

    And please point out to me where I called any of you Christianists, or racists, as individuals, unlike some of the things you’ve labeled as “me.” I’m trying, admittedly futilely, to figure out where the legitimate conservative movement is going, because I have a vested interest in it.

    Warren, thanks for getting back to me on my question.

    Wow, again.

  326. Lee, please explain to me how opposing same-sex marriage isn’t homophobia.

    John, follow the link and read.

  327. Lee, please explain to me how opposing same-sex marriage isn’t homophobia.

    JohnO, got to the “Unity is overrated” thread a few posts down, and start reading about comment #70. There is a very good discussion about gay marriage there. I’m kinda tired of it now, but you will find my position there.

  328. Words matter, John O. Ya gotta know what words actually mean before ya use ‘em.

    Like I said in the other thread…yer a Looter, not an objectivist. By assigning words a meaning known only to yourself, you’re a proven Looter.

    From Merriam-Webster…

    Main Entry:
    da·ta
    Listen to the pronunciation of data
    Listen to the pronunciation of data
    Pronunciation:
    ˈdā-tə, ˈda- also ˈdä-
    Function:
    noun plural but singular or plural in construction
    Usage:
    often attributive
    Etymology:
    Latin, plural of datum
    Date:
    1646
    1 : factual information (as measurements or statistics) used as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or calculation 2 : information output by a sensing device or organ that includes both useful and irrelevant or redundant information and must be processed to be meaningful 3 : information in numerical form that can be digitally transmitted or processed

  329. I too am a Constitutional originalist, particularly when it comes to the Bill of Rights, which both parties have savaged brutally over the past 40 years (Power always seeks more), but I don’t understand how the abuses of said Bill of Rights under the Bush Administration translate to a theme of “Obama isn’t a nice guy.”

    Strawman, non-sequitur,a dn gthe “savaged brutally” bit is just buillshit.

    Sorry, Power is not interested in the Bill of Rights, and the evisceration by both left and right of the Bill of Rights, particularly #1, mostly the fault of the left, and #4, mostly the fault of the right, along with some perversions of some of the others, is truly obscene to me, non-partisan, and I’ll concede my rhetorical license, even though I still think it is true. Power hates freedom. This is not a partisan observation.

    My lying eyes tell me he’s pretty personally cautious, and most definitely a nice guy. There are few Republicans who know him who would say otherwise. Perhaps a list of Republicans who think he’s not a nice guy would help refine my opinion.

    Interesting twist on appeal to authority.

    What? I asked for names of Republicans who thought Obama wasn’t a nice guy, Jeff threw in the observation that “good” is not the same as “nice,” and not one of you gave me a SINGLE name.

    I want a strong opposition party. I do not trust Power in any form. I’m a libertarian-leaning, increasingly anarchistic free speech and Bill of Rights absolutist. (YMMV on personal interpretation.) I need the GOP to abandon the politics of hate of gays and minorities (policy speaking, not, of course, personally speaking) because it’s just stupid. One example: Abortion. My God considers overpopulation to be a far bigger problem for His children than abortion; He aborts himself some 30% of all pregnancies, and the “evidence” such as it is strongly suggest He doesn’t dabble in the details very much. Horrible things happen to wonderful people all the time.

    Over generalizations abound, character assassination, guilt by association….

    Generalizations are the only way to describe the masses, and they are in no way relevant to individual opinions. If you can give me another way to explain it, I’m all ears. And by the way, whose character did I assassinate? And who, exactly, did I associate with guilt?

    One of my all-time favorite The Onion headlines: “God answers paralyzed boy’s prayers: ‘No,’ says God.” Seems sort of transparently obvious to me.

    Put another way, why didn’t the GOP just stay home and pray instead of vote?

    Compositional fallacy

    LOL. Thanks for the technical explanation. Now, can you tell me why the true believers didn’t just stay home and pray? I stopped giving to charity, not just because St. Obama will take care of everyone, but because God will, too. (None of that is true, but it is argumentatively relevant.)

    I’ve tried to explain how I think a viable conservative movement can move forward.

    No. You haven’t.

    Yes, I have. I suggested outflanking the Dems on the trashing of the tax code and accounting rules, which everyone I know personally of either or any political stripe can get behind (literally anything is better than the incoherence we have now), I’ve suggested a return to the Bill of Rights, and I’ve suggested a return to traditionally cautious and, oddly, “conservative” foreign policy. And that was just a try for more ideas, of which I got NONE.

    It’s all just been personal attacks.

    Agreed. The evidence is above.

    Show me one. One personal attack against a fellow poster, anything remotely comparable to the ones against me.

  330. JohnO: Do you support children having three names on their birth certificates?

    Adults can choose to do whatever they please. They can bear whatever consequences they bring on themselves. Social experimentation with children is evil.

    I reject that having a valid and well thought out opinion can be described as an illness. I reject the redefinition implied. In fact, I reject you as a thinker and holder of valid opinions if you use those methods to demonize those who hold opinions that differ from yours.

    Derek (the birth certificate thing isn’t a hypothetical)

  331. oops…go to, not got to.

  332. Mossberg500, it all amounts to homophobia, in my personal opinion.

    As I say in my screed, I support the right of people who oppose the whole gay marriage or even gay thing to stand on the property line of their gay neighbor’s house and jeer, or even not associate with them at the block party. My God won’t personally approve of either, but I support everyone’s right to their own Invisible Sky Wizard. I have one of my own.

    I just can’t understand why anyone gives a crap about who marries whom, outside of fear and bigotry.

  333. Any “big” fan of David Foster Wallace, God rest his soul, can’t be all that bad.

    Welcome to the neo “Outlaw” posse at PW. I preferred the title of “punching proggy tailblazers,” but obviously Jeff wants to keep his crew’s name tight.

  334. JohnO: Conservatism will gain what if they reject those that believe in God? What are you smoking?

    You are describing Clinton center left Democrats. That space is already taken. And the experience everywhere else in the western world is that conservative parties that reject and demean and insult the 25% of their supporters (who also happen to do most of the volunteering and fundraising) to look good on sunday morning TV end up in perpetual opposition.

    Derek

  335. John still doesn’t know who he’s dealing with here.

    Awesome. Hand it to him, people.

    OUTLAW!

  336. Jesus. Been so out of the loop I hadn’t know DFW died.

    Used to teach his short stories.

  337. Well John, I felt Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse explained it clearly. You are free to have your opinion, but you are just making generalizations. Isn’t that the same type of bigotry you claim to dislike?

  338. I was born with a name that I never used. When a cousin was getting married overseas, I had to get a passport. You have no idea what it is like to try to change your name to the one you’ve always used.

    Story in more detail, here. It’s actually a great story of my love of bureaucracy. The Man.

    http://jonorato42.wordpress.com/2007/02/14/wherein-i-attempt-to-obtain-a-passport/

    I also know plenty of traditionally married couples who have hyphenated names. It just doesn’t seem to have done any significant damage to the kids, though I will admit my evidence is anecdotal. Kids are pretty resilient. And they can change their names to “Anti Multi Names” when they’re old enough. Surprising that more haven’t done some variant from your point of view.

    Mostly, though, what PUBLIC impact does it have?

  339. We are a collective, a communal circle of libertarians, sort’a, and assorted beigiests.

    I, for one, epitomize the French revolutionary socialists. So watch your head, boyo.

  340. Are you denying the indisputable voting numbers?

    WHAT NUMBERS? PROVIDE A LINK so we are at least in the same ballpark.

    Are you suggesting the GOP owns the support of the college educated, the gay, the black, brown, Asian, or any other non-whitey?

    why should any party “own the support” of any “group”?

    See, I call that “data.”

    because you’re a moron.

  341. Gonna have to give IJ another go. I’m reading the most recent Pynchon now, and I have some Stephenson and Eco to get through next, but then maybe I’ll give it a second chance.

  342. 25% of both sides of the electorate have no interest in progress. Especially on the “conservative,” “change is bad” side. LOL.

    Jeff, I can’t believe you didn’t know Wallace hung himself. VERY poignant story, here. The brutality of truly, absolutely, not giving a shit, even if you’re a rich, respected, loved person.

    http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2008/09/26/david_foster_wallace/

    Ouch.

  343. it all amounts to homophobia, in my personal opinion.

    oh, so you’re reading people’s minds now? fuck your opinion.

  344. I can’t believe I’d rather read Pat “the industrial paint huffer” kelly’s comments!

  345. Here’s one set of “data,” Maggie. I await your desire for more. I’ll find it for you.

    http://election2008ucdenver.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/demographic-disaster-for-the-gop/

  346. Ya know, John O…I think your problem is worse than begin’ full of logical fallacies and/or an error in your philosophy.

    I’m beginning to believe that you’ve never read a dictionary…

    Words don’t seem to mean what you think they mean…

    Main Entry:
    ob·jec·tiv·ism
    Function:
    noun
    Date:
    1854
    1: any of various theories asserting the validity of objective phenomena over subjective experience ; especially : realism 2a 2: an ethical theory that moral good is objectively real or that moral precepts are objectively valid 3: a 20th century movement in poetry growing out of imagism and putting stress on form
    — ob·jec·tiv·ist
    Listen to the pronunciation of objectivist -vist adjective or noun
    — ob·jec·tiv·is·tic
    Listen to the pronunciation of objectivistic -ˌjek-ti-ˈvis-tik adjective

    ====

    Nope….

    =====
    Definition of Objectivism
    Theological and Philosophical Biography and Dictionary
    objects are independent of mind and present their properties directly to the knower through sense data. Things known and sense data are one (epistemological realism as epistemological monism ). See Axiological objectivism or Realism

    ====

    …words really don’t mean what you think they mean…

    Nothing that you’ve said here @ PW has any foundation in logic, reason, or even in reality.

    You are a freaking Looter, man.

    Walking in here and trying to get by with Hegelian Dialectic and sophistry? …and then declare that you’ve offered a valid argument in support of your statements, when your statements and your arguments are less consistent than jello? Then, redefine words to mean whatever you want them to mean? You aren’t a Randian or a Libertarian or a Classical Liberal or even a good anarchist.

    You’ve also made the exact same – ahem – arguments on more than one thread, here.

    …uh…are you with The Ministry of Truth? ‘Cause, you know…you got that whole Doublethink thing a goin’ on, there.

  347. You’re not actually Maggie Gallagher, are you?

    Again, please explain to me how who marries whom has “public” interest, as in, the country will be collectively better or worse off.

    Opposing civil rights is traditional conservative stuff. Maggie, you’d be supporting slavery, and arguing against interracial marriage, and opposing a woman’s right to vote if we were living in those respective times. Deal with it.

  348. Wow, Warren! That was some high IQ shit you just laid on me there!

    I just try to look at things from both points of view! And see if I can’t find any “objective” evidence to support either side!

    You are a Mensa genius, and I salute you for it. Sincerely.

    I am overmatched.

  349. Again, please explain to me how who marries whom has “public” interest, as in, the country will be collectively better or worse off.

    go read the other post that was linked… it’s discussed at length.

    Opposing civil rights is traditional conservative stuff.

    says you.

    Maggie, you’d be supporting slavery, and arguing against interracial marriage, and opposing a woman’s right to vote if we were living in those respective times.

    again with the mind reading and assuming bad faith on everyone elses part.

  350. Oh fuck you, Maggie,

    aw, are you tired of your inflatable companion?

  351. There are two people who post here who, should I ever meet them in real life, upon learning who they are, I will without preamble or display simply shove their teeth out through a few of their sphyncters. Both of them have a penchant for speaking without civility to my wife.

  352. That’s the GOP spirit, RTO!

    I have not spoken without civility to anyone here. I don’t claim to be mind reader, unlike many who have commented on mine, and for the millionth time, I don’t accuse ANYONE here of any bad intentions, individually-speaking. Only bad arguments. Actually, mostly absent arguments.

    Repeating now: I want to know how the GOP can become a viable opposition force to our new Man.

    Nobody, NOBODY, has offered a clue.

  353. Oh fuck off, RTO. Feel included now?

  354. Maggie? Evidence that cultural progress has been supported by traditional conservative majorities?

  355. Define “cultural progress”.

  356. Swiped from elsewhere:

    October 13, 1858
    During Lincoln-Douglas debates, U.S. Senator Stephen Douglas (D-IL) states: “I do not regard the Negro as my equal, and positively deny that he is my brother, or any kin to me whatever”; Douglas became Democratic Party’s 1860 presidential nominee

    April 16, 1862
    President Lincoln signs bill abolishing slavery in District of Columbia; in Congress, 99% of Republicans vote yes, 83% of Democrats vote no

    July 17, 1862
    Over unanimous Democrat opposition, Republican Congress passesConfiscation Act stating that slaves of the Confederacy “shall be forever free”

    January 31, 1865
    13th Amendment banning slavery passed by U.S. House with unanimous Republican support, intense Democrat opposition

    April 8, 1865
    13th Amendment banning slavery passed by U.S. Senate with 100% Republican support, 63% Democrat opposition

    November 22, 1865
    Republicans denounce Democrat legislature of Mississippi for enacting “black codes,” which institutionalized racial discrimination

    February 5, 1866
    U.S. Rep. Thaddeus Stevens (R-PA) introduces legislation, successfully opposed by Democrat President Andrew Johnson, to implement “40 acres and a mule” relief by distributing land to former slaves

    April 9, 1866
    Republican Congress overrides Democrat President Johnson’s veto; Civil Rights Act of 1866, conferring rights of citizenship on African-Americans, becomes law

    May 10, 1866
    U.S. House passes Republicans’ 14th Amendment guaranteeing due process and equal protection of the laws to all citizens; 100% of Democrats vote no

    June 8, 1866
    U.S. Senate passes Republicans’ 14th Amendment guaranteeing due process and equal protection of the law to all citizens; 94% of Republicans vote yes and 100% of Democrats vote no

    January 8, 1867
    Republicans override Democrat President Andrew Johnson’s veto of law granting voting rights to African-Americans in D.C.

    July 19, 1867
    Republican Congress overrides Democrat President Andrew Johnson’s veto of legislation protecting voting rights of African-Americans

    March 30, 1868
    Republicans begin impeachment trial of Democrat President Andrew Johnson, who declared: “This is a country for white men, and by God, as long as I am President, it shall be a government of white men”

    September 3, 1868
    25 African-Americans in Georgia legislature, all Republicans, expelled by Democrat majority; later reinstated by Republican Congress

    September 12, 1868
    Civil rights activist Tunis Campbell and all other African-Americans in Georgia Senate, every one a Republican, expelled by Democrat majority; would later be reinstated by Republican Congress

    October 7, 1868
    Republicans denounce Democratic Party’s national campaign theme: “This is a white man’s country: Let white men rule”

    October 22, 1868
    While campaigning for re-election, Republican U.S. Rep. James Hinds (R-AR) is assassinated by Democrat terrorists who organized as the Ku Klux Klan

    December 10, 1869
    Republican Gov. John Campbell of Wyoming Territory signs FIRST-in-nation law granting women right to vote and to hold public office

    February 3, 1870
    After passing House with 98% Republican support and 97% Democrat opposition, Republicans’ 15th Amendment is ratified, granting vote to all Americans regardless of race

    May 31, 1870
    President U.S. Grant signs Republicans’ Enforcement Act, providing stiff penalties for depriving any American’s civil rights

    June 22, 1870
    Republican Congress creates U.S. Department of Justice, to safeguard the civil rights of African-Americans against Democrats in the South

    September 6, 1870
    Women vote in Wyoming, in FIRST election after women’s suffrage signed into law by Republican Gov. John Campbell

    February 28, 1871
    Republican Congress passes Enforcement Act providing federal protection for African-American voters

    April 20, 1871
    Republican Congress enacts the Ku Klux Klan Act, outlawing Democratic Party-affiliated terrorist groups which oppressed African-Americans

    October 10, 1871
    Following warnings by Philadelphia Democrats against black voting, African-American Republican civil rights activist Octavius Catto murdered by Democratic Party operative; his military funeral was attended by thousands

    October 18, 1871
    After violence against Republicans in South Carolina, President Ulysses Grant deploys U.S. troops to combat Democrat terrorists who formed the Ku Klux Klan

    November 18, 1872
    Susan B. Anthony arrested for voting, after boasting to Elizabeth Cady Stanton that she voted for “the Republican ticket, straight”

    January 17, 1874
    Armed Democrats seize Texas state government, ending Republican efforts to racially integrate government

    September 14, 1874
    Democrat white supremacists seize Louisiana statehouse in attempt to overthrow racially-integrated administration of Republican Governor William Kellogg; 27 killed

    March 1, 1875
    Civil Rights Act of 1875, guaranteeing access to public accommodations without regard to race, signed by Republican President U.S. Grant; passed with 92% Republican support over 100% Democrat opposition

    January 10, 1878
    U.S. Senator Aaron Sargent (R-CA) introduces Susan B. Anthony amendment for women’s suffrage; Democrat-controlled Senate defeated it 4 times before election of Republican House and Senate guaranteed its approval in 1919. Republicans foil Democratic efforts to keep women in the kitchen, where they belong

    February 8, 1894
    Democrat Congress and Democrat President Grover Cleveland join to repeal Republicans’ Enforcement Act, which had enabled African-Americans to vote

    January 15, 1901
    Republican Booker T. Washington protests Alabama Democratic Party’s refusal to permit voting by African-Americans

    May 29, 1902
    Virginia Democrats implement new state constitution, condemned by Republicans as illegal, reducing African-American voter registration by 86%

    February 12, 1909
    On 100th anniversary of Abraham Lincoln’s birth, African-American Republicans and women’s suffragists Ida Wells and Mary Terrell co-found the NAACP

    May 21, 1919
    Republican House passes constitutional amendment granting women the vote with 85% of Republicans in favor, but only 54% of Democrats; in Senate, 80% of Republicans would vote yes, but almost half of Democrats no

    August 18, 1920
    Republican-authored 19th Amendment, giving women the vote, becomes part of Constitution; 26 of the 36 states to ratify had Republican-controlled legislatures

    January 26, 1922
    House passes bill authored by U.S. Rep. Leonidas Dyer (R-MO) making lynching a federal crime; Senate Democrats block it with filibuster

    June 2, 1924
    Republican President Calvin Coolidge signs bill passed by Republican Congress granting U.S. citizenship to all Native Americans

    October 3, 1924
    Republicans denounce three-time Democrat presidential nominee William Jennings Bryan for defending the Ku Klux Klan at 1924 Democratic National Convention

    June 12, 1929
    First Lady Lou Hoover invites wife of U.S. Rep. Oscar De Priest (R-IL), an African-American, to tea at the White House, sparking protests by Democrats across the country

    August 17, 1937
    Republicans organize opposition to former Ku Klux Klansman andDemocrat U.S. Senator Hugo Black, appointed to U.S. Supreme Court by FDR; his Klan background was hidden until after confirmation

    June 24, 1940
    Republican Party platform calls for integration of the armed forces; for the balance of his terms in office, FDR refuses to order it

    September 30, 1953
    Earl Warren, California’s three-term Republican Governor and 1948 Republican vice presidential nominee, nominated to be Chief Justice; wrote landmark decision in Brown v. Board of Education

    November 25, 1955
    Eisenhower administration bans racial segregation of interstate bus travel

    March 12, 1956
    Ninety-seven Democrats in Congress condemn Supreme Court’s decision in Brown v. Board of Education, and pledge to continue segregation

    June 5, 1956
    Republican federal judge Frank Johnson rules in favor of Rosa Parks in decision striking down “blacks in the back of the bus” law

    November 6, 1956
    African-American civil rights leaders Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernathy vote for Republican Dwight Eisenhower for President

    September 9, 1957
    President Dwight Eisenhower signs Republican Party’s 1957 Civil Rights Act

    September 24, 1957
    Sparking criticism from Democrats such as Senators John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson, President Dwight Eisenhower deploys the 82nd Airborne Division to Little Rock, AR to force Democrat Governor Orval Faubus to integrate public schools

    May 6, 1960
    President Dwight Eisenhower signs Republicans’ Civil Rights Act of 1960, overcoming 125-hour, around-the-clock filibuster by 18 Senate Democrats

    May 2, 1963
    Republicans condemn Democrat sheriff of Birmingham, AL for arresting over 2,000 African-American schoolchildren marching for their civil rights

    September 29, 1963
    Gov. George Wallace (D-AL) defies order by U.S. District Judge Frank Johnson, appointed by President Dwight Eisenhower, to integrate Tuskegee High School

    June 9, 1964
    Republicans condemn 14-hour filibuster against 1964 Civil Rights Act by U.S. Senator and former Ku Klux Klansman Robert Byrd (D-WV), who still serves in the Senate

    June 10, 1964
    Senate Minority Leader Everett Dirksen (R-IL) criticizes Democrat filibuster against 1964 Civil Rights Act, calls on Democrats to stop opposing racial equality. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was introduced and approved by a staggering majority of Republicans in the Senate. The Act was opposed by most southern Democrat senators, several of whom were proud segregationists—one of them being Al Gore Sr. Democrat President Lyndon B. Johnson relied on Illinois Senator Everett Dirksen, the Republican leader from Illinois, to get the Act passed.

    August 4, 1965
    Senate Republican Leader Everett Dirksen (R-IL) overcomes Democrat attempts to block 1965 Voting Rights Act; 94% of Senate Republicans vote for landmark civil right legislation, while 27% of Democrats oppose. Voting Rights Act of 1965, abolishing literacy tests and other measures devised by Democrats to prevent African-Americans from voting, signed into law; higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats vote in favor

    February 19, 1976
    President Gerald Ford formally rescinds President Franklin Roosevelt’s notorious Executive Order authorizing internment of over 120,000 Japanese-Americans during WWII

    September 15, 1981
    President Ronald Reagan establishes the White House Initiative on Historically Black Colleges and Universities, to increase African-American participation in federal education programs

    June 29, 1982
    President Ronald Reagan signs 25-year extension of 1965 Voting Rights Act

    August 10, 1988
    President Ronald Reagan signs Civil Liberties Act of 1988, compensating Japanese-Americans for deprivation of civil rights and property during World War II internment ordered by FDR

    November 21, 1991
    President George H. W. Bush signs Civil Rights Act of 1991 to strengthen federal civil rights legislation

    August 20, 1996
    Bill authored by U.S. Rep. Susan Molinari(R-NY) to prohibit racial discrimination in adoptions, part of Republicans’ Contract With America, becomes law

  357. The GOP is dead. They’ll never return. And it’s not because of Prog academia nor the media, it’s because they’re fuckin’ self-righteous idiots.

  358. Here is the source for the above, by the way:

    http://www.black-and-right.com/2008/10/23/why-america-will-be-racist-on-114/

    Go on, John. Tell him he’s “racist”.

  359. He’s a racist.

  360. sPies is a homo.

  361. I just love Lincoln being claimed as the GOP’s own. To me, it’s like Jesus, who today’s GOP would consign to dirty fucking peace loving Gitmo status.

    SBP, that is a good post. But mostly all that stuff was hated by what is today’s conservative movement, and I want that changed. But still, a great series of anecdotes. A lot of that stuff was “Democratic” in name only. It’s like that fabulous GOP argument that it was the Dems who opposed Civil Rights, which is true, but they were all bigoted Southerners (sorry, not all, just “most”) and reflective of the realities of today’s politics.

  362. Maggie, that data I sent you?

    Sorry, RTO! Don’t mean to get my ass kicked!

    What fun.

  363. I just love Lincoln being claimed as the GOP’s own.

    Translation: you have no response other than more idiotic snark and unsupported assertion.

    Go fuck yourself with a rusty crowbar, John.

    Seriously.

    Trollhammered.

  364. Argghh. HE’S not racist, WE are! Historically, for sure. Dems and Repubs alike.

    Why is that so hard to understand, and not attribute to a single party? We deal with it to this day, and the GOP was in such bad shape we elected a half-white guy with a middle name of “Hussein” to deal with it. With one helluva lot of whitey voting his way.

    Lincoln would, like even R.M. Nixon, be despised in today’s Republican party. C’mon. So would Jesus.

  365. John O is a Progressive/Marxist Liberal (or is that, ‘Liberal/Marxist’?) trying to disguise himself as something else. There’s lot of flaming, smoking, jello in the way, so it’s hard to tell what he’s trying be. Words have meaning, and that’s pretty much what his words reveal to us about his philosophy and belief systems…what there is of them, anyway. He’s a Progressive-Liberal. Like Thor, but w/o the class.

    …and I mean that in the worst possible way. Like a cheap whore, he’s entertaining at first, but not very inventive or creative. Thor’s insults are at least occasionally entertaining.

  366. Lincoln had the market cornered in his time on all that kumbaya let’s get along, and not oppress people shit.

    Today’s GOP would despise him. Just like they do Obama.

    What’s the big deal? Again, I speak to none of you personally.

  367. Warren, you’re too much of a man for me. Your eloquence and intelligence is a wonder to behold.

    In your defense, I’m not a professional writer. I do the best I can.

    Repeating now, and again: Where does the Conservative movement go from here?

    Must be a pretty tough question for all the Mensa members out here.

  368. Hopefully, Obama wil treat the country better than he did his Chicago constituents!

  369. That’s right, Mossberg! A clear articulation of the state of the modern conservative movement!

    And where they are headed! I think I finally have it: Rip apart the Other Guy! Before he’s done one single thing as POTUS!

    Genius, again. How is it that so many Mensa members congregated in one place?

    Awesome.

  370. Sorry, RTO! Don’t mean to get my ass kicked!

    Ah, JohnO, I seriously doubt RTO was including you. You are an idle distraction, only showing the potential to be a diseased prick like thor. Don’t be getting all puffed up over your bad self.

    I would also remind you 57 million Americans voted for John McCain, many more than ever voted for anyone before this election. And that for a guy that didn’t excite the base because of his record of going against conservatives. Were I you I wouldn’t declare everlasting victory and the death of conservatism just yet. You will look less foolish next election.

  371. John, D Kite addressed that in comment#327. Maybe you missed it.

  372. Flying Spaghetti Monster, Lee, can you read?

    I’m not declaring nor even wishing for the death of conservatism. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT STANDS FOR.

    Where it is headed. Which faction will win. And how well that one will do.

    NOBODY HAS UTTERED A WORD in this regard. I don’t want to declare this fact definitive, but it sure is suggestive.

    If your point is that McCain wasn’t conservative enough, fine! Say it! And try to form a sentence or paragraph or three about what that means from a policy perspective! Jail for women who have abortions, and their doctors, too? Re-education camps for homos? Prison for looting investment bankers? Give me SOMETHING, for FSM sakes.

    I find it comically ironic that I’m the only one who has suggested any.

  373. I propose we give 100% tax cut to 100% of the people.
    I propose we have an energy policy that will get us off of foreign oil in 10 minutes.
    I propose we do what ever the UN wants us to do regardless of our own country’s interest so the rest of the world likes us.
    I propose we pay everyone’s mortgage, and if they don’t have a house we build them a free one.
    I propose we have unlimited immigration.
    I propose we have free health care for all.
    I propose we have free education up to and including college.
    I propose we give everyone a $100,000 salary regardless of what they do for a living.

    I think everyone will vote for that platform.

  374. Oops, damn it! Oh well, both links are the same…

  375. I’m not declaring nor even wishing for the death of conservatism. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT STANDS FOR.

    Where it is headed. Which faction will win. And how well that one will do.

    I cant speak for everybody, but I plan to be an OUTLAW!. Take care of my own, speak my opinion when it pleases me, vote for who I think best represents me.

    Oh, and mock THE MAN!!

    After a few years of Pollosi, Reid, and Obama the public will be rethinking the whole socialism thing. They’ll be back.

  376. Ooooo. John O googled me! Thanks for the compliment, there, John O.

    Mockery, but a compliment, none-the-less. I like that whole thing about people askin’ themselves, “Who the hell is this guy?” It’s one of my best weapons…’cause they try to find out who I am and then decide that I’m only worth their mockery. I just love bein’ mis-underestimated like that. …works every time…

    The proper terminology, there, John, is ‘starving writer’. Not ‘professional.’ Once I found that people merely wanted to be entertained and didn’t actually want to think, and that editors and publishers – conservatives included – only wanted to hear their own political and social ideology parroted back at them, I did the John Galt thing with the writing. Now, I write for my own pleasure and that of a few friends, and I play around a bit with memetics on blogs and websites like this one. I also enjoy an honest and rational discusion, which a person can find here only at PW. I also enjoy interacting with someone like yourself from time to time, if only to figure out exactly what yer up to.

    Protein Wisdom isn’t the place to find out what Conservatives are going to be up to, next. Neither Jeff nor the regulars here fit into that box or any other. Trying to influence their narratives and scripts – especially in the manner that you’ve chosen – is also a no-go.

    As for men like yourself, enjoy the victory celebrations of the battle you’ve just won. (“Obamamessiah”) The war? You’re gonna lose it. Game Theory and a bit of math reveals that for anyone to with eyes to see. Both conservatives and liberals are gonna go down in flames..perhaps even literally, before all is said and done.

    The universe, you see, seeks it’s highest level of computational complexity. Ideology mistakenly thinks that it can control the universe. To borrow a phrase from yet another ideology, pride goeth before a fall… That just happens to be a universal truth.

    As for the Mensa stuff? Do ya really wanna know how to improve your IQ score? Practice riddles. Personally, I hate riddles. Always have. There’s something that smacks of dishonesty about them. Like a smarmy used car salesman…or a lawyer…or like a ‘progressive’ liberal.

    As for my own knowledge base, I know enough to know that no one man can ever know all there is to know. …and that, John O, is at the foundation of the philosophical difference between you and I.

  377. Re-education camps for homos?

    The Frontier Party welcomes all homos.

  378. I predict campfire beans will cause a panic within the Frontier Party.

  379. The Frontier Party welcomes all predictions.

  380. I nominate Barack Obama as Frontier Party candidate for President.

    Yeah, because Barack reads and writes and thinkers and shakes hands with Billy Ayers.

  381. Second?

  382. Motion not carried. But the Frontier Party does recognize thor’s admission that Obama pals with domestic terrorists.

    The Frontier Party supports egging Bill Ayers house. Major John?

  383. To me, it’s like Jesus, who today’s GOP would consign to dirty fucking peace loving Gitmo status.

    Right. Gitmo is just full of preachers of peace. This one is quite a tool, though not even Billy Mays could sell it.

  384. al, I propose putting a fork in Mr. Ayers’ belly as it would be wild, man.

  385. The Frontier Party welcomes all homos.

    thor publicly asked me to examine his privates once.

  386. Why does thor’s very first post on this thread make it look like he’s afraid Obama will send him to the cornfield?

  387. “Lincoln had the market cornered in his time on all that kumbaya let’s get along, and not oppress people shit.”

    Good Lord, how ignorant of history can you be? Lincoln steadfastly guided and defended the Union at the cost of hundreds of thousands of American lives … what Kumbaya or dirty hippie about that? “Dirty hippies”, had they existed, would have been camped outside the Whitehouse doing performance art and calling Lincoln a baby killer.

  388. what = what’s

    P, once again, IMF

  389. I love this circular firing squad stuff.

    One of the most telling symptoms of BDS (formerly Bush Derangement Syndrome, now Barack Derangement Syndrome) is a sense of ideological purity. Any semi flattering language which refers to the offending party tends to exacerbate the symptoms of the syndrome and increase the delusional feelings of persecution and isolation. These episodes are usually accompanied by verbal expostulations of:

    “Wolverines!!!!1!!”

  390. Very classy of Patterico though. I think he hasn’t caught the BDS bug yet. Good on him.

  391. Lisa … I know the left is pretending that the Right is becoming unhinged but we’re not buying it. Criticism of Teh One is not a symptom of ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome – it has a better ring to it), although I’m sure it would make a wonderful narrative for the left to follow for the next 4 to 8 years.

    And, this IS becoming the narrative, folks. Be ready for it.

  392. Exhibit A. I responded on my blog, although I really used Jim Treacher’s post to speak for me.

  393. And I likewise refuse to allow that a man whose thuggish deeds and unsavory associations have defined him be granted the honor of “good man.” Because to do so is to make a mockery of good men, and to cede yet another bit of our ability to evaluate and describe and conclude in good faith into a bit of “hate speech” that won’t help the GOP regain power.

    You sound almost perfectly like Markos Moulitsas Zúñiga in 2004. I remember more than one person being excoriated for calling Bush a crappy president but a “good man”.

    I guess the players change but the game remains the same, eh?

  394. It sounds like President-elect Drugs Delaney is getting a clean slate from Ahmadinajead. And as you know, Drugs Delaney was a good guy, he just used a lot of drugs.

    Can this new president do SOMETHING before we put a monument up in D.C.?

    I doubt they’ll wait.

  395. Oh farg it. A monument project would create jobs.

  396. Instead, I want to talk more generally about why I believe, pace Cranky Conservative, that “whether or not we should say that Obama is a nice guy” is vitally important — and that, far from being “damned near the bottom of the list of priorities,” it speaks to something classical liberals need to put at the top of their priority list: namely, a refusal to allow that tactics of progressives to pass unchallenged or even to be celebrated.

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

    That is utterly rich coming from a person who mostly supported the party in which Karl Rove thrived. LMAO!!!!!!! Sorry but that is hilarious. And you said it without even a hint of irony.

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

    Ha heh…sigh.

    That was good.

  397. Carin I enjoyed the hell out of that rant. Thanks!

    I will pop over to your delightful blog to read your reaction in a bit.

  398. Tony Snow was a good and decent man. There didn’t need to be a big prime-time memorial extravaganza on TV for people to get tears in their eyes. People teared up just when they heard he had passed.

    But now we’re being told that we have to think Obama is a good and decent man when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

    I’m not black, so I don’t have the tribal good feelings. I don’t want Senator Government to pay my way, so I’m not looking in my mailbox for a check every day. He skipped visiting the troops while in Germany. Not good. Not a good man. Not a decent man. Not a man.

  399. You don’t have to say he is good at all! LOL. But if you think he is some sort of evil crank, be prepared to be kinda laughed at.

    I find it odd, this feeling of persecution or oppression due to a bit of derision.

  400. “Dirty hippies”, had they existed, would have been camped outside the Whitehouse doing performance art and calling Lincoln a baby killer.

    They were known as “Copperheads” because they were the heads of copper coins snipped out of the coins, and they were Democrats. They didn’t want to end slavery because they had a political alliance with the southern slave-owners, and once the war began they wanted to end it because it was all just too mean. They even led additional secession movements in northern states.

    Lincoln was very, very much a Republican. The first Republican president.

  401. Never said evil. I’m keeping my powder dry on that one.

    Just not good. No goodness.

    Gosh! I wonder when George W will pull a Jimmy Carter/Bill Clinton and start bad-mouthing Obama all over the world. Oh wait. It will be never.

  402. I find it odd, this feeling of persecution or oppression due to a bit of derision.

    Really? It’s all rather mild compared to what the left pulled the last eight years. Hell, after the 2000 and 2004 elections, there were lefties screaming they’d been “disenfranchised” because the people they voted for had lost.

    The fact is, there are plenty of reasons to distrust Obama and dislike him, based on the decisions he’s made and the people he’s chosen to associate with. That’s what this discussion’s been about: whether those reasons accumulate enough to deny him the status of “a good man” or not. I think so; his career has been marked by adherance to the corrupt, the violent, and the vile. Either he is one among them, or he is simply too damaged to realize what they are — neither option leaves him the status of “good man”.

    We’ve watched as people with far, far less against them have been demonized. I’ll do my best to restrict my objections to what Obama’s done rather than playing the left’s game of making shit up and freaking out about it (WE’VE LOST OUR RIGHTS!!!), but I won’t pretend he’s a “good man”.

  403. No actually George W. NEVER EVER got on the Lewinsky Blow Job train even when it was really in fashion. One of the reasons I could never bring myself to loathe Bush. He never had the spittle-frothing obsession with Teh Clenis. He will likely be nothing but gracious to the new president. He may be The Crappiest President Everâ„¢ but he is pretty classy.

  404. True graciousness requires class and sincerity. So valuable is grace, even when we don’t have it ourselves we will still admire it in others.
    Praise is a different animal. Often when we praise somebody we are showing ourselves to be his equal.

  405. “mau-mauing?” Your mask is slipping….

  406. I think you would feel differently Lisa if there was videos of George Bush’s church where they said your “race” created AIDS and was the greedy sons of bitches that ruin the world.

  407. I know about the Copperheads. In fact, I was going to add to my post that John O would have been a Copperhead, and actually is a modern-day equivalent, whose methods are more passive-aggressive-concern-trolling than public-paper-mache-puppet.

  408. “mau-mauing?” Your mask is slipping….

    No. Your ignorance is showing.

  409. I think you would feel differently Lisa if there was videos of George Bush’s church where they said your “race” created AIDS and was the greedy sons of bitches that ruin the world.

    Bob Jones In 2000 Vs. Jeremiah Wright In 2008

  410. Lord Crawford, I absolutely respect that. I don’t agree with your assessment of the President-Elect – who knows – he may prove to be less of a creep than you think he is. I was very skeptical of Bush (I never drank the Haterade, but I was not in the fan club either). But Bush actually changed my mind in the Fall of 2001 (for a while – he went back to being deeply disappointing in the Spring of 2002).

  411. Thanks for the link Mossberg. Pretty funny how that works out.

  412. Lisa, as I observed before, it’s not us that you have to worry about.

    It’s the people who are (right now) on your side.

    Tick-tock, tick-tock.

  413. John O. just wanted a little attention. Like perf caric, he wants to generate traffic on his website, so he has a reason to have a blog, and for a fleeting moment, some stimulation other than autoerotica.

  414. As for whether or not Obama is a “good” man, I have no way of knowing. What he has shown himself to be, however, is a supremely practical one when it comes to pursuing his ambitions. I am now simply hoping that he was using the left fringe like he used Ayers and Wright — as tools to get where he wanted to be. I am now hoping that the appointment of the profane pitbull Emmanuel, which initially seemed to contradict his claims of postpartisanism, may actually be more to reign in Pelosi and Reid than to crap on the Repubs. Finally, I am now hoping (and praying) that his pragmatism will lead him toward the center rather than the left.

  415. I don’t think at all for a second M’chelle won’t be groomed starting on day one to run in 2016. They ain’t grooming Hairplugs.

  416. That is utterly rich coming from a person who mostly supported the party in which Karl Rove thrived. LMAO!!!!!!! Sorry but that is hilarious. And you said it without even a hint of irony.

    Again, you haven’t been around here too long, but when the GOP and its supporters tried the same thing, I hammered them for it.

    You can laugh all you’d like. I never voted for Rove, nor did I ever consider him a genius of any sort.

  417. You know, I agree with Jeff that Obama has demonstrated that he is not a good man through the tactics he has either used or accepted being used in his name when he has run for office. Not just for president, but for senator as well. However, unlike Democrats and Bush, I don’t “loathe” Obama, nor do most of the commenters here, I imagine. So I cannot see this as being the equivalent of BDS.

    But whatevs. OUTLAW!!

  418. The only use I had for Rove is that it was such a perfect joke to call everything a “Rovian plot.” Comedy GOLD!

  419. Would a good man have so many bodies under his bus?

  420. M’Chelle will wanna follow the Hillary example. Become a senator first. Bank it.

  421. Nice one, Pablo.

    I’m lucky, in that I already have a suitable “outlaw name”.

  422. M’Chelle will wanna follow the Hillary example. Become a senator first. Bank it.

    She’s the power behind the throne, I agree. While the presidency will be probably be Carter redux, overall this is the second coming of the Clintons.

  423. I would change my name to “cranky-x” but I already have the domain in “cranky-d” so… I need a new outlaw name.

  424. Always the Rev. Wright. He will always be there for us to disagree on. The way you see him and the way I see him are completely different. I actually KNOW people who really believe that kind of shit and talk about it all of the time. There is a whole generation of cranks that are otherwise nice and intelligent people, but believe that white people and the U.S. government are pretty much capable of boundless evil. I don’t agree with that crazy shit, but I didn’t endure the kind of fucked shit they experienced – I never lived through random lynchings and unconscionable violence and oppression. Maybe we are all racist for tolerating our uncles, aunts, and granparents who think this kind of stuff (not all older black people think this way, but a hell of a lot do) but we are sort of caught because we are respectful of what they endured, yet we really don’t believe the same kinds of things about white people and the country that they do (luckily my grandparents are not cranks – but I have a great uncle who says reverend wright-ish shit all the time – but he also has one eye because some white guy felt that he “took his job” back in Arkansas).

  425. You can laugh all you’d like. I never voted for Rove, nor did I ever consider him a genius of any sort.

    Yet, you “rewarded” the party in which he thrived with your vote.

    Interesting.

  426. I don’t know how to go about picking an outlaw name. I know how to make-up a porn name, but mine never worked right. I really think that was nothing but a scam to figure out people’s passwords.

  427. but he also has one eye because some white guy felt that he “took his job” back in Arkansas

    Hmm… so if I have friends or relatives who were robbed, beaten up, or raped by a black man, I should just accept it if they start dropping the N-bomb every five seconds?

  428. Oh, and Lisa? I’m pretty sure that Karl Rove never advocated murdering 25 million American citizens.

  429. Spies, anyone who uses “brigands” in their name is alright with me. I am fond of that word. Knave and cur are also delightful.

  430. LIsa – 429 – so we should have vilified the party because we didn’t believe Rove was a genius?

  431. Jeff, maybe we can create an Outlaw Name Generator, similar to the Peoples Cube’s Progressive Truth Generator™!

  432. What else could you do? Cut their tongue out? Challenge them to a duel?

    Hell yes you accept it, they are still your family. And you think “glad I am not like that”. Hopefully, on the ride home from Thanksgving dinner, you talk to your kids about how “unfortunate” your Uncle Cletus is and explain to them them how hateful and sad his views are.

  433. Lee, please explain to me how opposing same-sex marriage isn’t homophobia.

    Mossberg500, it all amounts to homophobia, in my personal opinion.

    Opposing civil rights is traditional conservative stuff.

    Maggie, you’d be supporting slavery, and arguing against interracial marriage, and opposing a woman’s right to vote if we were living in those respective times. Deal with it.

    I don’t accuse ANYONE here of any bad intentions, individually-speaking.

    I am glad I went to bed before this mendoucheous twatwaffle dropped by.

  434. Good morning, Komrade sugartits.

  435. I don’t agree with that crazy shit, but I didn’t endure the kind of fucked shit they experienced – I never lived through random lynchings and unconscionable violence and oppression.

    Neither did Jeremiah Wright.

  436. Carin, sugar, that was not the aim of my comment. My comment was to point out the irony of saying that calling Obama a good man (or indeed any show of support)was rewarding the purportedly nasty campaign tactics of the left. I just found it rich, considering the general support given to the GOP – no matter what ridiculous tactics they used to win. He is implying that ANY support for the Dems is tacit support for their so-called thuggish methods for gaining office. Yet, it is ok to support the GOP even if their methods for gaining office were a bit icky.

  437. Hey JDizzle!!

  438. “Always the Rev. Wright. He will always be there for us to disagree on.”

    We disagree on it because it is socially acceptable to say things about the white race and because you are black and he wasn’t being racist against you. I am 100% positive you would find it revolting as me if it was a white preacher talking about blacks like that.

  439. Yet, you “rewarded” the party in which he thrived with your vote.

    I rewarded George Bush with my vote in 2004 because he took the right tack to protect the country.

    Beyond that, there’s not much “interesting” to the subtext.

  440. Here is an interesting not-so-hypothetical. The feminists went absolutely apeshit over Summers at Hahvahd. But, since they prostrate themselves before Baracky like they did with Clinton, will they stand down when Baracky puts Summers in a high level position?

  441. I have no idea what he experienced, Pablo. I know he is old enough to have had to walk on the other side of the street and drink out of a different fountain.

    I am not excusing racism. Racism is not okay. I am saying that there is an ENTIRE generation of people that remember how it used to be in this country. Most of them are glad it is not that way and they are NOT RACISTS. But there is another chunk that can’t move on. They are still fighting the war. I hate it, but I don’t really know what to do about it.

  442. “They are still fighting the war. I hate it, but I don’t really know what to do about it.”

    One thing you don’t do is take your kids to their church so they can spread their hatred on to the next generation.

  443. One of these days, they will all be dead, Lisa, and then there will not be anyone around that can claim the moniker of victim of racism. Problem is, people that have never been effected by slavery, nor were their parents, nor were their parents parents, nor were their parents parents parents still claim grievance over that horrific period in our history. Fuck, Spike Lee acts like he was in chains last week. It will not go away because there are people that refuse to let it go away.

  444. He is implying that ANY support for the Dems is tacit support for their so-called thuggish methods for gaining office. Yet, it is ok to support the GOP even if their methods for gaining office were a bit icky.

    Uh, no he isn’t.

    First off, he distinguishes between Dems and progressives whenever possible (without being tedious, he hopes); secondly, if by “icky” you are going to start talking about “swiftboating,” you are making his larger point for him: inconvenient truths are now to be thought of as “smears.” Criticism is hate speech or racism.

    The kinds of tactics I find abhorent I’ve spelled out repeatedly. This post was not about Karl Rove’s goodness or lack thereof. You might consider that.

  445. If you want to avoid someone saying something controversial about race in America at a black church, then you would have to close every last one of them down. Hell, you would have had to avoided going to church in the 1960s when Rev. King was speaking. He condemned the shit out of America.

  446. I don’t think the “Obama is a good man” issue has to do with the campaign alone. Honestly, I don’t know what kind of man he is. It is yet to be seen. I choose to judge a man by his actions, and his campaign tactics weren’t ones that I found particularly admirable. So,he gets a fail for that.

    He doesn’t have a long streak of any sort of “actions” to which I can judge … anything to say whether he is a good man or not. Legislation? His days as a “community organizer” don’t seem to be filled with much success either (except success at spending a lot of money with no discernible results.)

    I find Michele’s (Catalano’s) whole “Hope for change” la-la political strategy … sad. And a tad pathetic. Like someone who’s retirement plan is to buy a lotto ticking “Hoping” they’ll win one of these years.

    Hope isn’t a plan. It’s a state of mind. But, I do have hope….

    I HOPE Obama isn’t a socialist.
    I HOPE he doesn’t take a lick of advice from Ayers or Wright.
    I HOPE he doesn’t raise taxes and ruin my husband’s business.

  447. So most black churches teach their congregation that white people invented AIDS and that the greed of white people ruins the world? Wow news to me.

  448. Rev King, in the 60s, had a point.

    Today? Not so much.

  449. They are still fighting the war.

    I don’t meet these ones I don’t think. Darius I met election day. He shook my hand in the elevator and asked if I was in post and I said no I’m in marketing. He said it was very nice to meet you. I said good to meet you. You have to work in the morning? He said yeah but we’re gonna try and get these edits done so we can come in late.

  450. Jeff had a good point that Mr. Patterico already had known what he was gonna write the day after Baracky became his new president. He’d probably known for quite awhile. He fancies himself an opinion leader, more explicitly I think than the average opinion leader does, and maybe he is. But it’s still contrived.

  451. “One thing you don’t do is take your kids to their church so they can spread their hatred on to the next generation.”

    You do if you are Obama and it helps you politically.

  452. My post wasn’t either. You are being coy now, perf.

    My point was about the delicious (but yet unseen by you) irony of your overheated and lofty statement about not uttering even a slightly flattering word about Obama as it speaks to something classical liberals need to put at the top of their priority list: namely, a refusal to allow that tactics of progressives to pass unchallenged or even to be celebrated. That just cracks my shit up.

    Okay, so you meant something else (which you apparently have outlined previously and I missed).

    I will take you at your word, sir.

    I am off to lunch. Did you know that Hamid Karzai’s brother has a great restaurant in Baltimore called Helmland? Mmmmm. Kabobs. Tasty.

  453. So most black churches teach their congregation that white people invented AIDS and that the greed of white people ruins the world? Wow news to me.

    I never said that. Don’t be silly.

    You haven’t read a thing I wrote except what supports your theory that Rev. Wright is a racist thus Obama is a racist thus everyone who voted for him is a racist thus when you go join the World Church of the Creator it will not be because you are a racist it will be because you are just defending yourself from all these racists.

    LOL.

    Just kidding, before you get all outraged and stuff.

  454. Kabobs are for suckers, LIsa. There’s this Lebanese place I go to on the days I work. Spicy Gallaba is the way to go. Mix in a bit of hummous. OMG. I’m hungary now.

  455. Excellent Happy. I meet really nice people all the time too. Very pleasant motherfuckers, to be sure.

  456. Distracty I think. Race pales in the face of dirty socialism.

  457. …He doesn’t have a long streak of any sort of “actions” to which I can judge…

    Strictly speaking, that isn’t really so, is it? When he left NY after college and went to Chicago to become a Community Organizer, that was an action, was it not? And when he began “looking” for an issue around which to coalesce his community organizing parade and finally found “asbestos” (ah, finally, an issue, we’re saved!) in city run apartment buildings, that was an action, right? And when he claimed to be striving to “help” recently out of work steelworkers in South Chicago get back to work (and ultimately did nothing of the sort) that was an action. And on it goes.

    All of his public life has been a series of actions, it seems to me, resulting in very little positive in the way of accomplishment. The “good” jobs not found (or created, but we wouldn’t expect involvement in business creation, heavens!), the asbestos disturbed but not removed (at huge expense to the city), the playground/gardens paid for but never finished, the fortune in foundation money spread to progressive political education projects resulting in no improvement to public education in Chicago, and on and on it goes. A fearsome list of diddly-squat. Quite a bit to judge from.

  458. MMMMMM Carin. That sounds delicious. Isn’t that a dish of meat, peppers, mushrooms and onions? I have to look it up, I am pretty sure I have gobbled that down before.

    (My ride is late, thus I linger.)

  459. Distracty I think. Race pales in the face of dirty socialism.

    Ha! We call you cracka-assed crackas and get you hopping around while we take your guns and tax your earnins. HA!!!!!!

  460. Why must you play on my fears so?

  461. Ain’t gettin’ my guns, sugartits.

  462. I don’t think mushrooms sound right.

    My husband gets that, and I get this Chicken dish served over hummous. I forget what they call the sauce they use, but it is do die for.

  463. My point was about the delicious (but yet unseen by you) irony of your overheated and lofty statement about not uttering even a slightly flattering word about Obama as it speaks to something classical liberals need to put at the top of their priority list: namely, a refusal to allow that tactics of progressives to pass unchallenged or even to be celebrated. That just cracks my shit up.

    I never said one can’t utter flattering things about Obama. I uttered a few myself. What I said was, calling him a “good man” when he has shown himself to be the opposite — as Patterico has admitted on occasion — is dangerous. Because it wasn’t done on Obama’s behalf, first off; and second, er, off, it does not magically insulate us.

    Even now, it has been used by lefty trolls as a wedge: they take Patterico’s side for now, but the minute he begins criticizing Obama’s policies, he’ll quickly realize that the gesture bought him nothing but further derision. It was a sign of weakness pretending to be a show of moral strength. It was a gambit, and I think a bad one, tactically and strategically speaking.

    I have no changed my opinion.

    I will say, though, that trotting out a recently dead blogger and radio host whom everyone seemed to like to bolster his own argument was rather a cheap ploy on Pat’s part. It smelled of desperation of the kind that comes from defensiveness.

    I am comfortable in my assessment for now. Obama can change and become a good man; he can distance himself from domestic terrorists and race hustlers and anti-semites and Maoists; he can not presume to rewrite the Constitution, or use academic fraud to try to sway court decisions pertaining to fundamental rights; he can learn the role of the judiciary and promise to respect that. He can treat critical speech as critical speech, not as provocation to destroy his opponent — often by proxy.

    When I see it, I’ll acknowledge it. Until then, calling him a good man is disingenuous. And I should think you’d prefer my candor over another’s calculated machinations born of a desire to have his “party” seen in a certain way by people who are politically retarded to begin with.

    I want to fix the retardation; others, it seems, wish to pander to it.

  464. Rev. Wright speaks, says the media exploited him. Media speaks, spreads knowing falsehoods. From the article:

    The videos, which included Wright thundering “God damn America!”, dominated cable television for weeks. The public outrage that followed caused the president-elect to sever ties with his longtime spiritual leader.

    “Public outrage caused.” Bullshit. Wright declaring Obama an ordinary politician who would say anything — whether true (gospel unto Wright) or false (not gospel unto Wright) — to get elected was what “caused” Obama to sever his ties.

    It was as if Obama’s motto had become the G.W. Bushian: “You’re either with us or you’re agin us!”

    “It’s not helpful to our campaign,” Obama said.

  465. How about Patterico showing his work? How is Obama a good man? Does Patterico know the man? Again, demonizing his policies and stances is not the same as demonizing the man. The left demonized Bush. Time and time and time again.The onus is to prove that Obama is a good man. He may be. But just saying it, doesn’t make it so.

  466. Barack Obama is a great man, as far as I know.

  467. thor: get to work on that free gas, bitch.

  468. “I will say, though, that trotting out a recently dead blogger and radio host whom everyone seemed to like to bolster his own argument was rather a cheap ploy on Pat’s part. It smelled of desperation of the kind that comes from defensiveness.”

    I’ll give that the Glenn Reynolds trifecta: Heh. Ouch. Indeed.

  469. “How is Obama a good man?”

    This, to me, is the point. By saying Obama is a good man you must then list/mention the qualities you see in him to which this goodness adheres. By this you then show what you define as “good”.

    If you don’t mention what qualities you see in him that lead you to say he is a good man then the definition is up in the air. His supporters will then use their definition of good to apply to your statement.

    Since you have not shown where your own supposed definition of good can apply to Obama, and it fact can be shown to not possibly apply, your statement will be seen as self-serving and mendacious, or you must, perhaps now or later, agree to the interpretation of good used by those who support him.

  470. When I see it, I’ll acknowledge it. Until then, calling him a good man is disingenuous. And I should think you’d prefer my candor over another’s calculated machinations born of a desire to have his “party” seen in a certain way by people who are politically retarded to begin with.

    I find your candor quite refreshing indeed. It is not your opinion that has me taken aback but your opinion on your comrade’s opinion. I KNOW that Obama is not on your List of Great American Citizens. I don’t expect him to be by any means. I just initially read your post as rather purist in nature. But I think you are probably right. There is more defensiveness than maverickyness and a sense of personal insult behind yer buddy’s sharp retorts.

    I will say, though, that trotting out a recently dead blogger and radio host whom everyone seemed to like to bolster his own argument was rather a cheap ploy on Pat’s part. It smelled of desperation of the kind that comes from defensiveness.

    I see your point.

    You did give me a good laugh though, Perf.

    Wolverines, y’all.

  471. Pingback: Liberty News Central

  472. Maybe Patterico is just trying to forstall BDS symptoms that will look very racial coming from an all white crowd of conservatives in Kentucky? Imagine a Berkley style rally but in Kentucky with paper mache Obama heads and a mostly white crowd.

    Racist!!!111!!!!!

  473. What we call “racism” today is really nothing more than ethnic prejudice. Certain whites plain don’t like black people. Certain blacks plain don’t like white people. Certain Hispanics don’t like either, and certain Asians are contemptuous of all of the above.

    This is in no way remarkable. It is, in fact, so universal as to be human nature. If I keep my car locked as I drive through Baltimore to the safety of my ofay ‘burb, I am acting on the same premise as an Irish kid would walking through a guinea neighborhood in Brooklyn back inna day. It’s not ideological racism whereby I attempt to prove that an African is an unter-mensch or a descendant of Ham and therefore biologically incapable of civilized life, and I may deprive him of life, liberty, and property at my masterly whim.

    I have no wish to deny anyone anything that I believe universally due. I have no notion that any human is not equally the heir of this our earth, and the moral and intellectual baggage thereunto pertaining.

    So when I hear my own father grumble about the loutish fellows who spoil his train ride into DC every day, I chalk it up to the same motive that made an African-American gentleman promise to kick my white ass out of his Philadelphia neighborhood a few months back. He then boozedly asked me for the time, and a quarter. I gave him one and not the other.

    And if this post makes me a racist, then that’s just “outlaw” as it comes to me, I guess.

  474. Should we treat Obama the left has treated Bush?…

    Why not? Just because he is president-elect does not mean that he is above criticism, scorn, and lampooning. You probably won’t have the whole country (and world) cheering you on as you burn him in effigy. But later you probably will (after he fucks up a couple of times). Be patient.

  475. Maybe Patterico is just trying to forstall BDS symptoms that will look very racial coming from an all white crowd of conservatives in Kentucky? Imagine a Berkley style rally but in Kentucky with paper mache Obama heads and a mostly white crowd.

    10,000 angry Americans! But only 7 teeth among the lot of them.

    (I condemn myself in advance)

  476. Why not?

    Because at least trying to tell the truth still matters to some of us. It can be just that simple.

  477. Andrew I agree. I, unlike my ernest, goofy baby-boomer predecessors, don’t think that you can and even should stamp out all cultural reactions to each other. We are hardwired to be a little bit wary of “the other”. That doesn’t mean we are mean, that means we are acting on some primeval instinct to watch our ass around strangers.

    I am not giving an excuse for people thinking that they are being mass injectd with AIDS or that the strangers are devils, welfare crackheads, muggers, etc.

    But if you drive through Baltimore (200 murders and counting, y’all!) you are not crazy for locking your door. Nor would a black guy or an Arab guy be crazy for locking his door and driving fast through Forsythe County, GA at sundown.

    Some stuff just is what it is.

    But if you want me to call you a racist I will. You know, if that is your thing.

  478. Here’s what I want to know: I can think of Obama as (1) “the president-elect,” or as (2) “THE FIRST-EVER BLACK!!!! PRESIDENT-ELECT OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!”

    Which of these won’t get me called racist?

  479. Because at least trying to tell the truth still matters to some of us. It can be just that simple.

    Yeah that is why I said “why not”. Duh.

  480. Beg your pardon, Lisa, I misread your Why not? as a rhetorical “just go ahead and do it”. My bad.

  481. OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!

    LOL. That was funny.

  482. Sorry replace Repub with anyone on the right or that opposes the ONE. My bad racist.

  483. Sdferr, you act like criticism of Bush was defacto NOT the truth. And you act like protesters burning his ass in effigy was somehow “a lie”. They thought he sucked as president – just expressing their opinion. If you wish to express your displeasure with the Obama administration by throwing your glass of sherry angrily into the crackling fire in your leather-appointed study, then fine. But if you want to hit the streets and chant “You Suck, Obama” while setting fire to a stuffed effigy, then that is fine too.

  484. Sdferr, you act like criticism of Bush was defacto NOT the truth.

    I do nothing of the sort. Much of what has been (and still is being said) about Pres. is in fact lies, intentional untruths, careless untruths, etc. I did not and would not say that it all was. Criticism is one thing. I did not use the word. Lying is another. That was what put me off over the past many years. Why can’t you assume that I can distinguish the two rather than accuse me of such a stupidity?

    And you act like protesters burning his ass in effigy was somehow “a lie”.

    No I didn’t. You are interpolating.

    They thought he sucked as president – just expressing their opinion. If you wish to express your displeasure with the Obama administration by throwing your glass of sherry angrily into the crackling fire in your leather-appointed study, then fine. But if you want to hit the streets and chant “You Suck, Obama” while setting fire to a stuffed effigy, then that is fine too.

    Ok, now that’s just silly.

  485. Big difference between standing in the street shouting F Bush and standing in the street burning OUR flag while saying F the USA.

  486. When I see it, I’ll acknowledge it.

    And I’ll say no no no not God bless Baracky…

  487. And I’ll say no no no not God bless Baracky…

    Obama, No Merci Beaucoup.

  488. Pingback: Steynian 281 « Free Canuckistan!

  489. Comment by Lisa on 11/7 @ 10:47 am #

    Ha! We call you cracka-assed crackas and get you hopping around while we take your guns and tax your earnins. HA!!!!!!

    You DO know, of course, that most restrictive firearm laws in this country were to keep guns out of the hands of blacks and immigrants. You sure you want to go down that road?

  490. But if you want me to call you a racist I will. You know, if that is your thing.

    It’s not, and I surmised that such would not be your reaction, Lisa. I was speaking to that silent minority of moonbat lurkers out there. The ones who are, shall we say, less “hinged” than your good self.

  491. Pingback: Is Barack Obama a good man? « The Counter Revolution

  492. Pingback: Right Wing Nut House » ON BEING NOBLE AND OTHER NONSENSICAL IDEAS IN THE AGE OF OBAMA

  493. Pingback: Twisted Spinster » Blog Archive » Nothing new under the sun

  494. Patterico, and his sort of “stuck on narcissism” self-congratulatory hall monitors, are merely Weimar Republicans who will still go to Ayers’s ovens when their time comes. I choose to fight.

  495. You folks remind me of a nest of ants, just after having been churned up. You are running in all directions mindlessly, looking for a leader. In historical electoral terms this country just overwhelmingly defeated your pinched, racist, xenophobic view of the world. A brilliant, talented, handsome, orator with a true vision to lead this country to a better place has defeated your ancient, crotchety, two-faced, neanderthal of a candidate. Instead of continuing to hurl your sorry little insults, I would advise you to start building a more inclusive political party, unless you undergo the fate of many political parties, and just wither away.

  496. …with a true vision to lead this country to a better place…

    We’ve seen that ‘vision” before, and I know where he picked it up. But hey, that vision has only killed 100 million people. Let’s give it another chance!

    Unless you’d care to trade your brilliant, talented, handsome orator for another such as Michael Steele. This pinched, racist xenophobe would approve.

  497. thanks for the blog, very interesting prespective, i still think b is a soft tyranny tho

  498. Pablo suggested I post this again:

    Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence:

    I READILY ADMIT TO THREATENING TO BEAT CERTAIN PEOPLE’S ASSES. And you know what? I’d still do it to most of them if we ever met up. So?

    Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence:

    Scott Jacobs is one of those guys I mentioned that if I ever met him in person, I’d leave him in a heap, mewling like a baby pussy.

    Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence:

    Hey, listen: Doc Weasel is a cover band. The guy who runs their site, Kenny, is a 140lb unpaid roadie and all around lackey living at home with mom, posting amateur porn and tugging at his own little doc weasel. If I ever run into him, I’ll break him like a toothpick.

    Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence:

    Note that I said if I ever ran across some of these people, I’d have no problem — and feel no guilt — about snapping their ACL.

    Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence:

    As I said earlier, why the fuck should I be embarrassed about telling people who’ve said some vile things to me that I’d be happy to meet up with them in person, where I’d give them the opportunity to say those same vile things directly to my face. Just before I broke their fucking ankles?

    Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence:

    I’ve probably gotten into it with about a half dozen people over the years, some of whom if I ran into them in the street I would beat their ass without hesitation.

    From: Jeff Goldstein: Arguing “On Point” — With Threats of Violence.

    Thanks to Pablo for the suggestion. It’s a good one. Sorta makes it clear who wrote this post.

  499. Pingback: Two important quotes on the Republican Party Establishment | Thinking Americanist

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