August 27, 2008

The Parallax (Re)View

The more we know about Obama, the less we know about Obama.

Maybe if we had those special glasses, like Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones — or even Roddy Piper…

Posted by Jeff G. @ 8:45am
415 comments | Trackback

Comments (415)

  1. That is kind of odd.

  2. Maybe if we had those special glasses, like Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones — or even Roddy Piper…

    Or maybe if we had some journalists with the courage to take off the kid gloves and cover Democrats the way they cover Republicans.

  3. Now you’re just talking crazy, Aldo.

  4. I’ve been hearing tales of thousands of newspaper journalists laid off over the last eight months or so. It strikes me that a few of those good people could benefit from an entrepreneurial spirit. They might start their own publications for fame and fortune. God knows the field is open to be captured by anyone with a serious competitive streak.

  5. Watching the Democrats, for me, is like being in the “They Live” world with the glasses.

  6. Sounds like another witch hunt … to thor.

  7. Well I hope noone is going to go into their convention hall and say “I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, and I am all out of bubble gum.”

  8. Might improve the ratings, Mr. Pink.

  9. Baracky is all kinds of bad news. He and global warming will turn out to be the second biggest hoaxes of this century I think. After journalism.

  10. We know that Obmama is hunky. What else could we possibly need to know?

  11. That’s OBAMA, not Obmama. Stupid, but kind of funny at the same time.

  12. Well yeah of course but I did not want to give the impression that I was advocating such a thing.

  13. How can we know the mind of…GOD!

    He will tell all in his good time…

    Maybe on Thursday, when he decends from mount Obamus and addresses the masses at Mile High Stadium…

    Is the torchlight rally afterward???

  14. I figure journalism has devolved into a high school maturity level now. All the cool kids are in the Obama cliche. The minute you step out of line and do something uncool, like asking a possibly negative question of Obama, you are thrown out. Hell you will be lucky if you get a seat next to the band-geeks/ChristianRight at lunch.

  15. I sorta listened to some of the convention thing last night but nothing really stuck. Hillary mostly kept edging sort of towards her ah ain’t no ways tarred schtick is mostly what I kept noticing. I think other people spoke too but I can’t remember really. Oh. I think it started with that one guy talking about how we should be happy nonpartisan bunnies and then after that everyone started throwing shit at McCain, a lot about the economy. NPR didn’t seem to realize that this Baracky fella what gives them the convulsive shuddery orgasms has already come right out and said he has no intention at all of addressing the deficit, so this whole thing about fiscal policy they were on about sounded really phony to where I just couldn’t take any of it seriously.

  16. Didn’t we complain that Bill Clinton was an embarassing over-sharer? I don’t think we “don’t know” about Obama. That is one of those stupid media memes that the lazy and stupid like to run with in dog days of summer. Last election we were wondering if earning a Purple Heart in Vietnam meant Kerry was a coward and hated America. Oh and before that, we were pondering earth toned suits and whether wearing one meant you were a snob and hated ordinary Americans.

  17. Is it just me or has the amount of comments here slowed to a freakin crawl?

  18. I think it’s just you, Mr Pink.

  19. It isn’t just you. Some kind of internal struggle happened a few weeks ago that may or may not have caused some ill feelings. And all of those guest bloggers brought their own traffic so I suppose that had some effect. Plus, it is the dog days so there is not a whole helluva lot to talk about. The conventions are completely drama-free no matter how much the press likes to try to invent something. Even the protesters at the DNCC this year are boring.

  20. I just watched the Parallax View a few weeks ago. They don’t make conspiracy movies like that anymore. Sigh.

  21. For sure Baracky doesn’t have a Purple Heart, Lisa cause he doesn’t think much of the military. Especially not for black peoples. There’s bunches of stuff on this from that church he gave all that money to. Also Baracky was never actually in the military himself. Some of his new friends were though. Actually Baracky has never actually been responsible for leading any kind of enterprise really, so any awards involving leadership, he probably doesn’t have any of those either. He might have some plaques and stuff. Those people he hangs with are really big on giving each other plaques. Usually the government pays for them so they can be quite fancy and important looking.

  22. Yeah they need Janet Jackson to get up there and “accidentally” show a boob or something.

  23. You can bet M’chelle sure has some fancy plaques. She’s big on keeping score, I get the feeling.

  24. Lisa hit it on the head when she said that the DNC is about as boring as it gets. Try as I might to pay attention … there’s just no “there” there.

  25. It’s too bad Ghettofabulous Kwame couldn’t have shown up for a bit of fun. I mean, Monica’s done what she could to “represent” Detroit but I’m only half-heartedly excited about that.

  26. “Is the torchlight rally afterward???”

    That’s another movie, Thulsa Doom in Conan.

  27. Well I hope there is no decapitation either but I do see the similarities between the cult in one and the cult in the other.

  28. Who’s Monica?

  29. “Is it just me or has the amount of comments here slowed to a freakin crawl?”

    It’s just you.

    “Last election we were wondering if earning a Purple Heart in Vietnam meant Kerry was a coward and hated America.”

    Really? Is that waht we were ‘wondering?’ Kerry was never denigrated for his (four month), quarter tour of Vietnam. Claiming to chuck his medals over the White House fence while suckling from Jane Fonda’s communist teat was a somewhat of a bother though. But, nobody much cared if he got his Purple Heart from shrapnel, a big mosquito bite, or a scorching case of herepes from a ‘me love you long time’ Saigon whore.

    He served, and that deserves thanks.

    It was more the ‘Christmas trip to Cambodia,’ the politically motivated, disgusting, outright ‘Winter Soldier,’ ‘Genjis Kahn’ bullshit lies we ‘wondered’ about. We ‘wondered’ if that made him a coward.

    And it did.

  30. Conyers. John’s wifey with the big mouth with a couple of feet in it.

  31. “…Plus, it is the dog days so there is not a whole helluva lot to talk about. …”

    Krakatoa blew up this day Lisa. Or, uh, LBJ was born today. Also Glenn Reynolds. And W.E.B. DuBois died today.

    Hmmph. Actually, you’re right. Slim pickings.

  32. TBF, LamontYBD, there were the purple heart bandaids. And there were those who seriously questioned (myself included) whether Kerry truly deserved all of those decorations. That he used them to get his ass out of theater, I’m still conflicted on that. I don’t know that I wouldn’t have done the same. But I’d like to think that, decades later, I wouldn’t be touting myself as an experienced, professional combat soldier after having skedaddled at first opportunity.

  33. Kerry did get some heat over his Purple Hearts, three of them, reason being that 3 PH’s was a ticket out of Nam and was the reason that his tour was but 4 months. From the hardcore rightwing nutjobs at The Boston Globe (A New York Times Joint):

    “He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of shrapnel,” recalled Kerry’s commanding officer, Lieutenant Commander Grant Hibbard. “People in the office were saying, `I don’t think we got any fire,’ and there is a guy holding a little piece of shrapnel in his palm.” Hibbard said he couldn’t be certain whether Kerry actually came under fire on Dec. 2, 1968, the date in questionand that is why he said he asked Kerry questions about the matter.

    But Kerry persisted and, to his own “chagrin,” Hibbard said, he dropped the matter. “I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it,” Hibbard said. “I finally said, `OK, if that’s what happened . . . do whatever you want.’ After that, I don’t know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I don’t know how.”

    Kerry declined to talk to the Globe about the issue during the preparation of the Kerry biography. But his press secretary, Michael Meehan, noted that the Navy concluded that Kerry deserved the Purple Heart.

    During the Vietnam War, Purple Hearts were often granted for minor wounds. “There were an awful lot of Purple Hearts–from shrapnel, some of those might have been M-40 grenades,” said George Elliott, who served as a commanding officer to Kerry during another point in his five-month combat tour in Vietnam. (Kerry earlier served a noncombat tour.) “The Purple Hearts were coming down in boxes.” Under Navy regulations, an enlistee or officer wounded three times was permitted to leave Vietnam early, as Kerry did. He received all three purple hearts for relatively minor injuries — two did not cost him a day of service and one took him out for a day or two.

  34. I don’t think we “don’t know” about Obama.

    Really? Then you know why Obama was in TUCC listening to Rev. Wright for twenty years?

  35. Hmmph. Actually, you’re right. Slim pickings.

    Actually, Slim Pickens died in December. His brother, Easy, died in January.

  36. Slartibartfast:

    Certainly not the first time I’ve heard that. I was born at the tail end of that particular Democrat surrender, and figure only the men who fought in that war have the right to discuss whether Kerry was a sniviling pussy while ‘in country.’

    But, I think the SBV ressonated because they concentrated on what Kerry said and did after the war. In which case, he was a sniviling pussy.

    Who could windsurf.

  37. oh. I remember Monica now. She was that one who made an ass of herself in front of those children. She didn’t seem like much.

  38. Actually, Slim Pickens died in December. His brother, Easy, died in January.

    His first cousin, Nose, is still alive.

  39. oh. No for reals Kerry is a sniveling pussy no matter what his war record. You can tell cause he was elected in Massachussetts. Sorry, Mitt, but facts is facts.

  40. Happy that is quite a stretch. Careful, you might pull something. I don’t dislike the military, most of my family – black (some white) mostly working and middle (some rather more affluent) are in or have been in the military. But I am certainly not unaware of who makes up the bulk of the “volunteer” military. It sure ain’t the Jonah Goldbergs or the Sean Hannitys of the world. It does not mean you hate the military because you recognize that.

    And I think that Rev Wright is a decorated Marine, is he not? Correct me if I am wrong.

  41. Because he wanted to listen to Reverent Wright at TUCC. What is the mystery in that? You act like all they ever did was obsess on white people. You are not that imporatant. I suspect they read the bible a lot and sang gospel songs quite a bit for most of those 20 years of Sundays.

  42. “I don’t think we “don’t know” about Obama.”

    Not true. I didn’t know he was a Greek/Roman god until I saw that stage he’s building at Invesco.

    Could be worse, I guess.

    He could have made the jews build him a pyramid.

  43. LOL Lamont. Actually that would have been awesome. Jews build great pyramids.

  44. It sure ain’t the Jonah Goldbergs or the Sean Hannitys of the world. It does not mean you hate the military because you recognize that.

    I’m sure you are also aware the blacks are over-represented in the support arms of the services, but under-represented in combat units.

    Detroit can no longer even supports an infantry unit. My husband was a Captain of a Detroit infantry unit – almost all of which were 1) white and 2) not Detroit residents.

  45. Because he wanted to listen to Reverent Wright at TUCC. What is the mystery in that? You act like all they ever did was obsess on white people. You are not that imporatant. I suspect they read the bible a lot and sang gospel songs quite a bit for most of those 20 years of Sundays.

    Exactly Lisa I gave the same argument about David Duke’s church. Of course they hated minorities sometimes, but the rest of the time they sang gospel and loved Jesus. I totally agree with you Lisa really.
    /

  46. And I think that Rev Wright is a decorated Marine, is he not? Correct me if I am wrong.

    So what? So is Jack Murtha.

    And Kerry is a sniveling pussy who got himself three Purple Hearts without managing to spend an hour in the infirmary. But, in case anyone gives a shit, the real reason I detest the cocksucker with the withering heat of the sun is his slandering of the military once he returned stateside.

  47. I’m still chewing over the scare-quoted “volunteer” aspect of the comment. I guess they are rounding people up in the streets somewhere very quietly, because I have not seen anything about a draft on the news.

  48. Decorated or not, given the challenge Rev. Wright threw down at the National Press Club address and Q&A (among other places), it’s pretty clear the Rev. has more courage than Barack Obama, particularly when seen in the light of Obama’s pusillanimous repudiation of Wright only days after he proclaimed he could never do any such thing.

  49. Cranky-d I support a draft. When we go to war, everyone able bodied should be recruited to fight it and we should have to pay a war tax to pay for said war. Period. Maybe we would be more thoughtful about war if we actually had to serve our country and risk our asses for it.

  50. Oh, see now I’m having fun. “Black commenter” admits that the combat arms are mostly made up of whites … so the “issue” is that “rich white” people doen’t join up:

    The absence of upper income whites from representation in the armed services is the political cancer that threatens planetary survival. American class-plus-race privilege has become a menace to humanity.

    Lordy.

  51. I’m still chewing over the scare-quoted “volunteer” aspect of the comment.

    I am guessing that is an allusion to us being mercenaries or maybe just made up of poor people with no options. I myself was facing a life of destitute homelessness if it wasn’t for some recruiter. I would be on the street right now with no job eating cans of dog food.

  52. However, we do not have a draft, and the armed forces don’t want one. Since they don’t want it, I will have to disagree with you. Serving your country remains voluntary.

  53. Maybe we would be more thoughtful about war if we actually had to serve our country and risk our asses for it.

    Just which war have we not been “thoughtful” about?

  54. Except, drafted troops aren’t so great. A professional military is where it’s at.

    My husbands family was on the verge of “rich” yet two of the three sons joined the military.

  55. “And I think that Rev Wright is a decorated Marine”…

    So was Lee Harvey Oswald.

    And Charles Whitman.

    “I suspect they read the bible a lot and sang gospel songs quite a bit for most of those 20 years of Sundays.”

    Of course they did, of course they did. And it was ONLY on those days that Baracky, Michelle and the kids showed up.

    Never when Rev Wright went all crazy with the all the ‘God Damn America,’ ‘white devil,’ roosting chickens’ and whatnot. I’m sure his flock was just fucking agahst when that stuff was said. So uncharacteristic.

    Obamas were never there when Fr. Pfleger showed up to give a pep talk.

    Farrakhan? Who’s that?

    And Obama NEVER looked at the church bulletin to find the next ‘Hamas Potluck Dinner& Bingo.’

    And ‘spiritual mentor’ is just words. I’m sure Wright and Obama never talked about anything but the Gospel outside of church.

    Sure, sure.

  56. Lisa, making people fight a war what don’t want to, I think that would make people feel sort of anxious. The way we have it now, lots of people get freed from tyranny without us adding none. It’s pretty cool. So that’s a net loss of tyranny.

  57. I have the feeling Mr. Pink is making a funny. However, life presents you with a series of choices as you go. If you continue to make bad ones long enough, you end up on the street with no job eating cans of dog food. There are exceptions to this, but that’s what they are, exceptions.

  58. Yes, I suppose it isn’t volunteer if you believe life is made up of binary choices such as 1)Join the military and have an opportunity to make something of your life or 2) Stay home and get a job at Walmart.

    I mean … Walmart. They make ‘em wear those weird blue aprons. The inhumanity.

  59. Cranky-d I support a draft. When we go to war, everyone able bodied should be recruited to fight it and we should have to pay a war tax to pay for said war.

    Suppose we don’t need every able-bodied person, and those who are fighting it would rather have a disciplined group of professional, committed comrades-in-arms than every able bodied schmuck we can gather up? There’s a reason they gave Jesse MacBeth the boot. He was not a net positive, so they did some addition by subtraction.

  60. Yeah sure, Wright is the same as David Duke! Blacks who lived through segregation have just as little right to be pissed about the state of race relations as some white racist dude. It is totally the same thing. So if you are even NEAR some old minority who is still bitter about some past oppression, you have the absolute right to turn to them and call them a nigger, spic, chink or whatever is race appropriate. I mean, they are exactly the same as David Duke….hell make it Adolf Hitler. The motherfuckers.

    And blacks can NEVER criticize the USA for its racist past (and sometimes present). OMG!!! They might as well be reading Mein Kempf out loud, the goddamned niggers.

  61. Pablo, the American Revolution was not fought by professionals, but dedicated citizens.

    No war that ever meant a damn was fought exclusively by professionals while the citizens sat on their asses complaining about taxes.

  62. I’ll bet Rev. Phelps out at Westboro doesn’t preach about hating fags all the time.

  63. I’m sure the “let’s draft” types don’t understand that some military types LIKE their job. They like driving tanks and shooting guns. They don’t enjoy some aspect of their job – but people join and then rejoin the military because they want to.

  64. Blacks who lived through segregation have just as little right to be pissed about the state of race relations as some white racist dude.

    Except Wright didn’t live through segregation any more than you and I have. He lived in Philly and went to an exclusive school.

  65. Well maybe we can practice first Lisa and for the next war maybe liberals can just try not propagandizing for the enemy. If they get that down we can maybe explore rifle training and stuff. Baby steps.

  66. Okay, so that means that when blacks are racist they get a pass, and when whites are racist they should be vilified. Gotcha. How about the Chinese, Japanese, Viet Namese, Hispanics, and the oh so many other “races” that we haven’t mentioned? When to they get to be racist and not called on it? I think we will need a chart or something so we will know when we can object and when we cannot.

  67. The American REvolution was fought here. I think if we were attacked, and the anti-war types sat on their asses with their “not in our name” bullshit … well, they’d probably have a bigger problem with their fellow Americans.

    But, you cannot compare past wars to present. Modern warfare has made “bodies” for the sake of numbers irrelevant.

  68. Lisa, please don’t be using that N word here. People might get the wrong idea.

    We n*ver say n*ver.

  69. How is Farrakahn related to the Trinity United Church of Christ (that would be Christ, not Allah). Don’t tell me he converted. Or are all fiery negroes related somehow?

  70. Instead of object, I should have said, hold them accountable.

  71. Hee hee McGeehee. I miss you when I am gone.

  72. Well maybe we can practice first Lisa and for the next war maybe liberals can just try not propagandizing for the enemy. If they get that down we can maybe explore rifle training and stuff. Baby steps.

    Happyfeet comment of the day! But, the day is young, so don’t think you can rest on your laurels.

  73. IMHO it would be a complete disaster if they reinstituted the draft in anything other than a national emergency. I think that would be the broad consensus if you wanted to ask military personnel. You know if hell froze over and the people wanting a draft actually wanted to address retention and recruitment instead of trying to push a political agenda. Only an idiot wouldn’t see trying to reinstate the draft at this juncture is just a straw man for certain people to believe that everyone would all be anti-war “if only”.

  74. Lisa, the Iraq war (both, actually) was fought by professionals. The armed forces have come a damned long way from the Revolution, especially in terms of the gear they’re using. War is no longer a matter of throwing as many bodies at the enemy as you can…at least not for America.

  75. I don’t have a problem with criticism, Lisa. But when divisiveness and hatred are institutionalized, and the politics is shrouded in religion, I have a problem with it. And race, creed or color doesn’t affect my opinion.

  76. Right – we hate freedom and love the terriers, happy. Dont you folks get tired of trotting out that tired and smelly old dog?

  77. B Moe is being all reasonable and shit. Come on, man, let loose!

  78. From most accounts I have read, George Washington would have taken exception to your calling his army amateurs and civilians.

  79. I always try to be reasonable with folks who are reasonable with me.

    Idiots and assholes are another story.

  80. Lisa remembers why the anti-war movement died out in the early 70s.

    How clever.

  81. Wright is the same as David Duke and Phelps.

    US government=Aids to kill minorities

    911=God’s retribution for homosexuality

    minorites=hurting us poor white people

    Seems all the same kinda racist hate to me. If you want to excuse it though go ahead. Racist.

  82. Well, they got the job done, B Moe.

  83. You can call Wright on his racism – he is a racist, it is understandable that he might harbor bitterness, but not excusable. No one has given him a pass either. He has been universally condemned. However, he is not the same person as David Duke.

    BTW, if you are that much of an absolutist, why arent you calling for the resignation of everyone who ever worked with Strom Thurmond? He was an unrepentant racist and everyone still fawned over him like he was Mr. Rogers. Apparently, he did a great job and people loved him. He just had creative views about the Neegruhs.

  84. They were also provided training, equipment, uniforms and pay.

    They uniforms and pay may have been a bit meager at times, but it was there. The idea of the Americans being a bunch of insurgents and terrorists is a fairly recent invention, you can probably guess the source.

  85. Funny the same people on here continually insinuating people are racists or throwing out racial slurs are the ones defending RACISM CAUGHT ON TAPE. I mean this stuff is on Youtube for your viewing pleasure right now. IT IS INEXCUSABLE. I do not care how much you want to sugarcoat it, or excuse it, it is f#cking racism. It is racism you are FOR, which makes you a racist Lisa.

  86. You know if hell froze over and the people wanting a draft actually wanted to address retention and recruitment instead of trying to push a political agenda.

    They’d start with getting Congress to authorize an increase in the size of the forces as Bush has asked them to do. In the early 90′s we had 2 million people on active duty in an all volunteer force. Now, after the cuts in the Clinton years (peace dividend, yes) we’ve got about 3/4 of that. If we want a bigger force, Congress needs to act first.

  87. …why arent you calling for the resignation of everyone who ever worked with Strom Thurmond?

    Nobody is calling for Obama to resign, I have no problem with him staying in the Senate. He just won’t be getting my vote. And neither will anybody closely associated with Strom Thurmond, most likely.

  88. Robert Byrd anyone?

  89. BTW, if you are that much of an absolutist, why arent you calling for the resignation of everyone who ever worked with Strom Thurmond? He was an unrepentant racist and everyone still fawned over him like he was Mr. Rogers.

    Well, not entirely. But what do you suppose Trent Lott’s chances of getting elected POTUS are?

    …and everyone still fawned over him like he was Mr. Rogers.

    Oh, like Robert Byrd!

  90. Yeah sure, Wright is the same as David Duke! Blacks who lived through segregation have just as little right to be pissed about the state of race relations as some white racist dude. It is totally the same thing. So if you are even NEAR some old minority who is still bitter about some past oppression, you have the absolute right to turn to them and call them a $$^$%^$%$%$%$%$%$%$ whatever is race appropriate. I mean, they are exactly the same as David Duke….hell make it Adolf Hitler. The motherfuckers.

    If that is not a defense I do not know what is. Nice way to go around insinuating people are throwing around the n-word and other slurs too. To you it seems anyone who dares call out Wright, and by extension 20 year members of his racist congregation that jump around dancing when he says whitey invented AIDS, just wants excuses to throw around the n-word and are closet racists. Me personally I have something against people that sit in racist churches for 20 years, but hey that’s just me.

  91. Pablo, I can’t stalk you if your gonna be one step behind me.

  92. If I wasn’t busy linking, I’d have been right out front. ;)

  93. Well, ok. But if you fall behind again like that I may have to find another commenter to stalk.

  94. That is bullshit Pink and you know it. Strawman my ass. You don’t think that the people of the United States should actually PARTICIPATE in defending their own country? That argument is a FAIL from the start.

  95. You don’t think that the people of the United States should actually PARTICIPATE in defending their own country?

    People who suck at it shouldn’t.

  96. Lisa, your whole argument seems to be that Black racism is some kind of toy racism.

  97. “why arent you calling for the resignation of everyone who ever worked with Strom Thurmond?”

    1.) They’re mostly dead or in nursing homes.
    2.) For the same reason you’re not calling for the resignation of everyone who ever worked with Robert Byrd.

    “How is Farrakahn related to the Trinity United Church of Christ (that would be Christ, not Allah).”

    ** “Farrakhan, Wright said, is “one of the most important voices in the 20th and 21st century,” noting the Million Man March. “When Louis Farrakhan speaks, it’s like when E.F. Hutton speaks…Black America listens.” – Jake Tapper (ABC)

    ** “Its minister, and Obama’s spiritual adviser, is the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. In 1982, the CHURCH launched Trumpet Newsmagazine; Wright’s daughters serve as publisher and executive editor. Every year, the magazine makes awards in various categories. Last year, it gave the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award to a man it said “truly epitomized greatness.” That man is Louis Farrakhan.” – Richard Cohen (Washington Post).

  98. Didnt Robert Byrd say he was wrong and repent for his racist past and proceed to work toward undoing the damage that his racist views wrought? So you are saying that it is bad renounce your old ways and spend the rest of your life trying right your wrongs? Wow.

  99. Somehow it is hard to imagine, by lookin at the crowd in those Youtube clips, Obama and his kids sitting there passively with earmuffs on ignoring the hate while chatting up the people around them about the next bake sale. If someone can tell me how that is possible please do.

  100. Um, I don’t know. Mostly he was collecting pork, getting shit named after him and weeping for Teddy Kennedy. But did he romance a woman of color? I think not.

  101. You don’t think that the people of the United States should actually PARTICIPATE in defending their own country?

    Working hard and paying taxes is participating.

  102. Or worse, that non-whites in America are some kind of collective whipped dog, recently escaped,that you just can’t blame for being sharp-shy and unsociable to the point of biting up the whole block.

    That black racism isn’t just flat racism, egregiously wrong and immoral.

  103. That is bullshit Pink and you know it. Strawman my ass. You don’t think that the people of the United States should actually PARTICIPATE in defending their own country? That argument is a FAIL from the start.

    The people of the United States do participate. They volunteer to do it. Thousands of them, hundreds of thousands of our citizens VOLUNTEER. If you do not want to volunteer you are free to sit here if you want. It is your choice. You seem to think I am arguing that noone should defend the country which I am not. Again I think you are erecting a straw man by saying so.

  104. “So you are saying that it is bad renounce your old ways and spend the rest of your life trying right your wrongs? Wow.”

    It is according to a fellow named Ayers.

  105. Lisa, your whole argument seems to be that Black racism is some kind of toy racism.

    No her argument is that racism is cool just as long as you are hating the correct people.

  106. ““How is Farrakahn related to the Trinity United Church of Christ (that would be Christ, not Allah).”

    Funny, how that dog stopped barking all of a sudden.

  107. “…You don’t think that the people of the United States should actually PARTICIPATE in defending their own country?…”

    Of course the citizens of the United States should participate in the defense of their country. For crying out loud. There are many ways to do just this. Not all involve bearing arms or serving directly in the US armed forces.

    happyfeet’s point (for the next war maybe liberals can just try not propagandizing for the enemy) should be well taken here, however. Citizens busy creating propaganda for the enemies of the nation or busy revealing national security secrets are not participating in the defense but working counter to it. So again, we have another way to participate in the defense. Don’t work in manifest opposition to it.

  108. Part of me wants to believe she realizes she is being a hypocrite by excusing it. I really hope so because it makes me sad to think such racism is alive and well in our country, with willing defenders everywhere.

  109. “And blacks can NEVER criticize the USA for its racist past (and sometimes present). OMG!!! They might as well be reading Mein Kempf out loud, the goddamned niggers.”

    Straw man alert. Btw, Lisa, there are a lot of racist blacks, too.

  110. Back to Jeff’s post. The whole story seems bogus, but Obama is such an empty vessel that people keep trying to fill in the vacuum.

  111. “How is Farrakahn related to the Trinity United Church of Christ (that would be Christ, not Allah). Don’t tell me he converted. Or are all fiery negroes related somehow?”

    Another strawman alert…

  112. Lamont, Thurmond was a senator for over 40 years…maybe more. Many of the people who praised him and fondly recalled working with him. LMAO!!! Nice try though.

  113. Strawman your name is apropos. I never said there weren’t, fool.

  114. It sure ain’t the Jonah Goldbergs or the Sean Hannitys of the world.

    Naturally not. One can’t be a member of a set that one isn’t a member of. If you’re a guy who elected to not join the military, and instead do something else, of course you can’t be part of the military.

  115. Yeah being on active duty in the 101st Chairborne is as good as fighting in the hills of Afghanistan.

    Bullshit Mr. Pink. I am not excusing anything. I am pointing out that Wright is not the same as David Duke. Not in my estimation. You know this. But you are determined to press your own agenda so go ahead. I dont care anymore. You are not even arguing in good faith so go argue with someone else. Dismissed.

  116. “Lamont, Thurmond was a senator for over 40 years…maybe more.”

    Byrd wore a goddamn white sheet, Lisa!

    He was a FUCKING GRAND DRAGON!!

    And his crew likely hung black people back in the day.

    Comparitviley, Thurman was just a beligerent, prejudiced old coot.

    But Byrd repented (escaped prosecution) or whatever.

    So he’s cool.

  117. Perhaps I wasn’t paying close enough attention, but exactly how is Wright different from David Duke? I mean, aside for their personal history – to use that is to present a strawman because of COURSE their history will be different.

    But how is the stuff Duke says (and his influence) different from Wright’s?

  118. Yeah being on active duty in the 101st Chairborne is as good as fighting in the hills of Afghanistan.

    That is a bullshit argument, Lisa. Everyone doesn’t need to be a soldier, everyone isn’t cut out for it, and you don’t want real soldiers being handicapped by babysitting people who suck at it. You can participate in many other ways, wars cost money, somebody has to supply that money and resources. Do what you can to help, and DON’T HELP THE FREEKIN’ ENEMY. That is all that is required of a responsible citizen.

  119. We’ll learn a lot about racism when Baracky loses I bet, and I’ll say Baracky, it’s okay, you can run again later just try not to be so marxist about everything next time. He sure is a collectivist little fella. That just don’t sit right with me.

  120. I guess I don’t understand the draft argument.

    You seem to be sayng that being against the draft is akin to being unpatriotic?

    I realize that the left wants to reinstitute the draft in the belief that more people would then become anti-war, but other than that argument, what is your point regarding the draft?

    If it is some kind of argument about “not rushing into war”, or equal cliches, then I have a counter-offer. How about we limit voting rights to only those who have served honorably in the U.S. military? Wouldn’t that accomplish the same goal?

  121. I always dig hearing chickenhawk arguments from the set that will quote “the pen is mightier than the sword” at any opportunity.

  122. I am always glad to get the thread going. I am not nearly as good as Nishi, but I try. Alas, I have to get back to work. I probably wont get back around to the bloggernets until everyone has moved on from this topic. Au revoir, filthy capitalists!!

    Tell JD hello!!

    Ps. Carin I agree that Ghettofabulous Kilpatrick would have been a fun addition to the convention after all.

  123. why arent you calling for the resignation of everyone who ever worked with Strom Thurmond?

    Uh, like the rest of the Senate? Joe Biden?

  124. Perfesser, that is kinda funny but inaccurate. LMAO, who was the last person to say that? Andrei Codrescu? Kurt Vonnegut? That is so last millenium.

  125. People who think our soldiers are insufficiently trained to keep the peace in Iraq also tend to be the same people who keep hawking the draft.

    No dissonance here, no sirree.

  126. Again with Wright’s racism being toy racism.

  127. Sounds like another witch hunt … to thor.

    Yeah, but thor thinks we should vote for Obama because Michelle has a nice ass. Or something like that. It’s a bit hard to tell what thor’s getting at sometimes…

  128. Have a good day, Lisa. I will keep an eye out for JD. He’s been sort of in short supply this week.

  129. Lisa,

    By the way, much like KKK Byrd, Thurmond recanted his earlier positions on race, so your defense of Byrd applies equally to Thurmon. Indeed, they should apply more so as it was Byrd, not Thurmond, who was throwing around the term “nigger” as recently as the 1990′s.

    But as always, I’m willing to bet Strom doesn’t get the same pass as Byrd b/c of his conservative political positions.

    So, your attempt to

    a) equate the whole republican party with racism is a strawman based on false information; and

    b) to change the subject from the fact that the guy running for president for your party chose and stayed at a racist church for 20 years;

    fails for logical consistency and actual facts.

  130. Lisa, you are using the chickenhawk argument, which assumes that people who don’t have skin in the game tend to be careless with other peoples’ lives, and that if Bush had kids in the military, we’d have never invaded Iraq.

    The logical conclusion is that people who do have skin in the game are more hesitant about going to war and more likely to be against the invasion of Iraq.

    But the facts don’t bear that out. The vast majority of military families support the war, and the main reason they do is because they’ve heard from their people in Iraq and they know how much the soldiers themselves value the Iraqi people and want them to be free and prosperous. These people value freedom for their foreign brothers and sisters more than they value their own lives or the lives of their family members.

    See, we’ve got ours. We’ve been living in freedom and prosperity for over 200 years, and that freedom was secured by others who also valued liberty more than their own lives.

    “…who more than self their country loved, and mercy more than life.”

    That’s the value system that most of us conservatives are operating from. We value liberty more than comfort, political freedom more than individual lives.

    If you don’t share that hierarchy of values, then it’s easy to attribute other motives to those who do. But I’m telling you that you’re reading us wrong. Please don’t.

    As for harboring resentment because of racism (institutionalized an otherwise), how does expressing the resultant rage over and over and over improve racial relations? How does “Goddamn America” heal society’s wounds? How does keeping people angry about the past help give them a better future?

    A lot of people get screwed by society: short men, tall women, the fat, the ugly, the stupid, the socially inept, and people who have Down Syndrome, cerebral palsy, autism, and any number of disabilities that make them uncomfortably different from “normal” people.

    Y’all need to stop being so angry because your lives aren’t as perfect as you imagine ours to be. You’ll be a lot happier, you’ll get better jobs, and you’ll help us all get past the legacy of racism.

  131. The pen is mightier than the pencil.

    But the pencil has an eraser.

    And can write in space.

    In zero G I mean.

    Not actually write the words “in space.”

    Because a pen can do that too.

  132. “I always dig hearing chickenhawk arguments from the set that will quote “the pen is mightier than the sword” at any opportunity.”

    And I always “dig” the whining about “chickenhawk” arguments.

    Please carry on with the usual “ZOMG – this potential lack of uniquely educated civilian oversight will destroy us all” scare tactics.

  133. Well that, GB, and his long time hidden out of wedlock African-American daughter.

  134. Lisa, you are using the chickenhawk argument, which assumes that people who don’t have skin in the game tend to be careless with other peoples’ lives, and that if Bush had kids in the military, we’d have never invaded Iraq.

    And this is why we need a CINC with a couple of kids in the military. Sasha and Malia? No, of course not. Jack and Jimmy.

  135. Au revoir, filthy capitalists!!

    Take care, and hurry back, dirty pinko.

    And be thinking about how McCain having two boys in the military now squares with that chickenhawk argument and voting for Obama.

  136. Will do, ST. And you carry on with the inane comments. Please.

  137. Dammit, Pablo, we did it again!

  138. I know this is off topic, but does anyone think there’s any hope that McCain will pick Palin for VP? I was wondering if we should just ready ourselves for the Romney… I want to still hope though. sniffle.

  139. I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
    See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly.
    I’m crying. (Because of the laughing.)

  140. “Please carry on with the usual “ZOMG – this potential lack of uniquely educated civilian oversight will destroy us all” scare tactics.”

    DOUCHE A’HOY!

    “uniquely educated [Democrat]civilian oversight”… ROFLMAO!! …tears now…Christ…can’t stop laughing…

    I swear to God that’s one of the funniest things I’ve ever read. Lions and Tigers and obscure Humanities degrees…OH MY!

    “scare tactics.” Yeah…BOOGA! BOOGA! BOOGA!

    I’m scared of Obama in the same way I’m scared to give a two-year old a loaded pistol.

  141. I think ST is looking at me now. STOP LOOKING AT ME!!

    With apologies to McGehee

  142. I am in no mood for Romney. He’s such a dork I can’t deal with it right now. I guess if I remember he’s not Huckabee I’ll be able to deal with it better. But that’s just a pitiful choice. I like to think Romney is going to be Sec. of Commerce or something. He’s very talented, just he doesn’t need to be in my face these days.

  143. Please carry on with the usual “ZOMG – this potential lack of uniquely educated civilian oversight will destroy us all” scare tactics.

    The left never sees the insanity of their logic. They call anyone who supports the war effort, or who believes it was a good idea but did not/do not currently serve a chickenhawk whose opinion does not count and who should not be allowed to influence national security decisions.

    Yet, they are running someone to be president and commander in chief who never served. Thus, in a leftist’s mind Obama has no right to any opinion regarding the use of military force at any time and is thus disqualified by the “chickenhawk” argument from being able to perform the duties of president.

    But then, logic and consistency has never entered into a lefty’s mind.

  144. ‘Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.’ – General MacArthur

  145. But then, logic and consistency has never entered into a lefty’s mind.

    If logic and consistency did enter their minds, they wouldn’t be able to be lefties any more. I have tried before to find such things in their policy positions, but so far have been lacking. If a lefty does show up with a logical and consistent position, I would applaud them. Then again, their core assumptions about How Things Should Be are so different from mine that I doubt it’s possible.

  146. Seriously, ‘feets, who would you like as veep?

  147. Comment by kelly on 8/27 @ 12:57 pm #

    ‘Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.’ – General MacArthur

    Excellent quote, Kelly

  148. also, what is “ZOMG”?

  149. Not Huckabee is not nothing. You’re right, HF. It’s helps to think of that.

  150. Comment by geoffb on 8/27 @ 10:35 am #

    “Is the torchlight rally afterward???”

    That’s another movie, Thulsa Doom in Conan.

    Sorry man, I was tryin’ to be witty and stuff by alluding to Leni Reifenstahl and the film about the huge nazi party rally-”Triumph of will”. I guess it wasn’t nuanced enough; that or it was too far a reach!

  151. I just wrote “it’s” there. Blarg. I’m tired.

  152. My Veep choice? Dave Burge.

  153. Rick Lazio.

  154. Seriously? Tom Sowell (though I know he’d likely refuse.)

  155. Actually, I’d like to see Tom Coburn if Dave won’t take the nom and if nominated, won’t serve.

  156. Michael Phelps? For Carin…

  157. To make things as clear as an unmuddied lake, as clear as an azure sky of deepest summer–anyone who was eligible to become one of the lives lost in Iraq–yet declined and cheerleaded nonetheless, is a Chickenhawk.

    Plain.

    And simple.

  158. Wait, the guys and gals serving in theater who declined to die yet cheered their other successes are Chickenhawks?

  159. Brilliant, STD. Anyone who refuses to be a firefighter but applauds their bravery is…what, exactly?

    Cretin.

  160. Hello, sugartits.

    Hey, happy.

  161. So, if we are attacked and Obama is president, your logic would not allow him to use the U.S. military to defend america.

    I love lefty’s when they try and think. Fun.

    By the way, I served, so does that mean that you must worship me and admit I’m right? Is that not the inverse of your “chickenhawk” insult?

  162. The Left never really tires of that bullshit chickenhawk meme, do they? It has to be in their Top 5 Most Mendoucheous Memes.

  163. oh. For veep I would like Fred. I kinda wanted Phil Gramm but he screwed the pooch looks like. I would also like to be pleasantly surprised. That is my first choice really.

  164. Hi JD… were you on vacation?

  165. No, happy. Just busy being a Dad. And working. And life. Good things, all.

  166. I want Sarah Pallin or Meg Whitman for VP.

  167. I make this same argument every time a leftist screams “chickenhawk”:

    I’m more than willing to restrict voting to only those who have served in the U.S. military honorably, are you?

    For some reason, they never agree to that. Wierd. You would think that since they only want vets to have opinions on national security and use of the U.S. military, they would think it was a great idea.

  168. Meg Whitman sounds cool. That’s that eBay lady right?

  169. What this election needs is a Power Seller I think.

  170. Lisa, your whole argument is a strawman. You are consistently strawish. And also a bore, unless we actually do get to see the sugartits.

  171. In Strawhalla, the straw gods are getting puking drunk, making toasts to ST’s efforts in this thread.

    Pretty remarkable accomplishment, making the gods hurl like that.

  172. Yes, that is her. McCain has the opportunity to steal the whole hopeychangeynew meme right out from under Baracky, and do so with a non-politico that I think will be appealling to a large swath of the American public. I could be wrong. And I still do not like McCain, but his ads have been good recently.

  173. What about those of us who are too old to sign up with the military? Or other folks who have medical conditions which render them unable to pass the basic physical requirements?

    Also, what about those who join the service, but end up stationed in a desk job stateside?

    (BTW, we just had a murder that shook up my neighborhood. We all hope that the police catch the perpetrators, but since none of my neighbors are applying at the police academy, are we all chickenpolice?)

  174. Yes. We’re all also chickendoctors, chickenpresidents and chickengarbagepersons.

  175. I’m kinda wishin’ and hopin’ for a girl. Palin, whoever. I just would like to vote for someone other than an old white guy who looks mighty close to a cadaver. And isn’t very conservative.

  176. Percy, that’s funny. It’s an argument I like to use with the imbeciles like ST. It’s fairly appropriate. I’m also a chickenfireman, chickenhotdogvendor and chickencarsalesman.

  177. To make things as clear as an unmuddied lake, as clear as an azure sky of deepest summer–anyone who was eligible to become one of the lives lost in Iraq–yet declined and cheerleaded nonetheless, is a Chickenhawk.

    Plain.

    And simple.

    Simple. Indeed.

  178. See, Slart, I’ve also been exposed as a non-chicken sexist by the use of such vile words as “fireman” and “salesman”. I’ll denounce myself now. However, it would be nice if JD could denounce me. It just seems right.

  179. Strawhalla

    heh

  180. Whitman used to be in charge of making and marketing Mr. Potato Heads, she would be a natural to preside over the Congress.

    She is married to a dude named Griffith Rutherford Harsh IV. How cool is that?

  181. Obama may be the least-vetted Presidential candidate in history. My paper (the LAT) has never done a story on Obama’s connections to ACORN, his connections to Ayers through the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, or on any other aspect of Obama’s political history for that matter. But they did deploy their crack team of investigative journalists to dig up ugly details from McCain’s divorce, and they ran that story on the front page of a Sunday edition.

    It never bothered me much that the LAT has never reported on any of Obama’s various gaffes, because I don’t think gaffes are that important. But when McCain couldn’t remember how many homes he (his wife, actually) owns the Times not only reported the story, they ran it on the front page, above the fold, with a large-font hyperbolic headline that implied McCain’s political career was over. Then they ran a separate story on their blog about the gaffe, trying to create more buzz. They even went so far as to interview Robin Leach. I laughed my ass off when Leach basically told the breathless LAT reporters that the comment wasn’t a big deal, and that they ought to be focusing their energy on real news.

  182. VP? My money’s on Tom Ridge.

    He’s pro-choice by the way.

  183. My money’s on Tom Ridge.

    How much?

    He’s pro-choice by the way.

    So am I.

  184. How is Farrakahn related to the Trinity United Church of Christ (that would be Christ, not Allah).

    They named him to some particular honor of theirs. Held him up as an example and as admirable.

    Really, try to keep up.

  185. I love Fred too, happyfeet.

    But I don’t want the Republican ticket to look like the movie poster from ‘The Bucketlist.’

    I could roll with Palin or Whitman.

    Or Cantor (but only because the left would scream JOOOOOOOO!!!! from now ’til November).

  186. “My money’s on Tom Ridge.”

    Do you always make bets like that? You sir, are welcome at my poker table.

  187. @ #141: It finally bored with stalking me, took up with some cranky from the Wisdom scene…

    Trampolines is fickle.

  188. And Lisa’s not as much fun as she used to be.

  189. Comment by Great Banana on 8/27 @ 1:08 pm #
    also, what is “ZOMG”?

    Yet Another Permutation of “OMG”. It’s usually uttered by felines: http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/07/02/zomg-u-gotz-iphone/

  190. Don’t forget chickencommercialfishermen and chickenminers or chickenforesters.

  191. Speaking of azure skys –

    Ayers: “Everything was absolutely ideal. … The sky was blue. The birds were singing. And the bastards were finally going to get what was coming to them.”

  192. 188. Song. Head. Kill. Drink.

  193. Infidel – You have a standing denunciation from me.

  194. And Lisa’s not as much fun as she used to be.

    I blame JD’s absence.

  195. Re: #150

    “Sorry man, I was tryin’ to be witty and stuff by alluding to Leni Reifenstahl and the film about the huge nazi party rally-”Triumph of will”. I guess it wasn’t nuanced enough; that or it was too far a reach!”

    Bob Reed,

    I got the reference but I was thinking in terms of the movie types Jeff G. referenced in the post.

    That and I love James Earl Jones as an actor.

  196. I saw The Bucket List without headphones on a flight while I was reading a book. There was a mountain involved. And a list. And oxygen tanks. Never did see no bucket though. What a rip.

  197. Also some gay guy kept popping in and out with interesting clothing choices. He must have been related to Jack Nicholson somehow, cause he didn’t look like he could be related to Morgan Freeman really. I got the feeling healing was involved as well.

  198. @ #193: Heh. I didn’t think anyone would catch that.

  199. For VP I want McCain to choose a conservative in their 40s or early 50s who can become the next president after McCain. How about Micheal Steele, or Chris Cox?

  200. Also everybody died.

  201. Look, the chickenhawk argument means either:

    (A) You’re perfectly willing to be all hawkish and stuff when it’s other people’s lives on the line, but really you’re just indulging in hypermasculinist fantasies to make yourself fell all manly and stuff. If you were forced to go to war because of the draft, you’d totally join the antiwar movement or run to Canada.

    (B) If you’re CiC, you are careless with the lives of the soldiers, because if you knew how awful the war really is, you’d be against war of all kind in every situation. But since you’re just trying to outdo daddy (another hypermasculinist fantasy), you don’t give a rat’s rear about the pain you’re causing, because you’re BusHitler and are beyond any human feeling or compassion. Which is why we can hate you with all our souls.

    Dude, can I cheerlead the war? I don’t qualify to be in the military, being too old and sick and all, and even if I were in the military I’d totally suck at it.

    Not everyone is a warrior, nor should everyone be one.

    But if the sum total of your argument is to ascribe simplistic motives to you ideological opponents, as if you had the power to read minds, then you’ll have to forgive me for not taking you seriously.

  202. ** Spoiler **

  203. 202: I clearly said “anyone who was eligible”. How blatantly revisionist of you.

    193: Birth. School. Work. Death.

  204. “** Spoiler **”

    Wow. Suprised you didn’t walk out of that movie…

    (ducks)

  205. You understand the difference between eligible and capable? It is quite important when lives are on the line.

  206. Are you pushing yourself to become another boring suicide, ST?

  207. kelly – yes! Michael Phelps. And he could do all his speeches w/o a shirt.

    woot!

  208. I knew you’d suggest the bare torso, Carin.

  209. I’m predictable. But, really, I’m not recommending him for his mind.

  210. 202: I clearly said “anyone who was eligible”. How blatantly revisionist of you.

    Hardly. I was refuting the totality of the chickenhawk argument, not the particular wording of yours.

    Again, your attribution of motives to those who are eligible, elect not to serve, and who nevertheless support the war is still unacceptable. You’re presenting facts not in evidence, because you are unable to assess the motives of those whom you criticize.

    The equivalent would be to say that all those who opposed the invasion of Iraq are traitors and cowards. Would you call that a fair assessment of your motives?

    I thought not.

    Trot out the next argument, if you’ve got one, and please keep in mind that we’re drawing down troops in Iraq because they’re no longer needed.

  211. It is sad to say but things in Iraq may cease getting better in the near term and take a turn for the worse. For instance, see this piece in the Captain’s Journal.

  212. The gay guy in the bucket list was on Will and Grace (he played Jack). I figured he was in because he knew Rob Reiner (the director of bucket list), but that is just a guess. I thought the movie was okay, but fairly predictable.

  213. To make things as clear as an unmuddied lake, as clear as an azure sky of deepest summer–anyone who was eligible to become one of the lives lost in Iraq–yet declined and cheerleaded nonetheless, is a Chickenhawk.

    Plain.

    And simple.

    Things are pretty simple in your world, ST.

  214. OK… re: draft. That would mean Vietnam was a good war.

    Bob Reed Sorry man, I was tryin’ to be witty and stuff by alluding to Leni Reifenstahl and the film about the huge nazi party rally-”Triumph of will”. I guess it wasn’t nuanced enough; that or it was too far a reach!

    I thought the same thing. At what point does this whole cult of personality thing begin to be over the top? In all truth, it is almost more fascist than what the left tries to claim to be fascism.

    FINALLY- For VP… Geovany Soto. But he may not be old enough yet, or available until late October.

  215. Oh yeah… and chickenchickenfarmers

  216. To make things clear…anyone who has not served and states an opinion on matters military is a Commenthawk, . What’s your status, ST?

  217. Cranky-d I thought the movie was okay, but fairly predictable. Predictable, but actually better than I had expected. Jack continues to grow into his persona. I only hope to be kind of like the ideal he affects(right spelling for this term?) when I am as old. Also, I did not think the “gay” guy played up that way… seemed much more committed to his friend/employer.

  218. dicentra – No further argument is required. You presented a difference with a distinction that exists only in what’s left of your tiny little neocon brain.

    I suggest you to run immediately to the roof of your house–squint really hard until you can see Iran from there–and then yell “To War!”

  219. I’m predictable. But, really, I’m not recommending him for his mind.

    Shocka. You’re not suggesting he’s a…mimbo, are you?

  220. I’m available to be veep. I meet the qualifications; have a good suit; unmarried without children so I can attend funerals of world leaders on a minute’s notice; can cast deciding votes in the senate; and will not back-stab my boss.

    As long as there are no extant photographs of the Mackinac Conferences I have attended, then I am good to go.

  221. Oh, the gloves are off, decentra. He called you a neocon!

  222. Sorry for the mis-spelling of your nom de net also.

  223. ST, nows the point where you simply declare victory and go away. Victory is WITHIN your grasp!

  224. ST is an example of an anonymous commenter who is anonymous because he wishes to be an asshole. Shun him. SHUN!!

  225. But do you carry the indestructible self regard like the statesman like Joe Biden, Mikey?

    Oops, I felt a wave of nausea writing “statesman” and “Joe Biden” in the same sentence. Please excuse me for a moment.

  226. A few points that I have been trying to flesh out regarding chickenhawks. How can someone be derided for espousing a positive opinion on military matters, but has not served, have a lesser stand than someone in the same circumstance, but anti-action/war/military, whatever?

    I also believe, based on personal experience, that leadership has a closer relationship with those citizens (and those who serve and wish to become a citizen) who serve in the military in whatever capacity, than someone who is anti-military. Those who “loath the military” or gain all knowledge about the structure, psyche, culture, or operations of the military from movies and popular culture have no investment in whether a volunteer will go to do what they are asked to do, in their name, versus national leadership. People who have gone to visit units at home or abroad. Who work with their decision makers daily…. or especially with the same DM’s executive officer, aid decamp, or an Air Force One steward.

  227. Leni Riefenstahl was unavailable for comment.

    But I bet it would have been good!

    P.S. – Any one know how to work this Ouija Board?

  228. No further argument is required. You presented a difference with a distinction that exists only in what’s left of your tiny little neocon brain.

    I thought that to be a neocon, you had to be (a) Jewish (b) formerly on the Left.

    I am neither.

    By the way, so that I avoid making assumptions about your motives, please tell me why you are making the comments that you are making on this blog, of all places?

    Are you hoping to change our minds? Make us reconsider our positions in light of your gibing? Hoping to entertain yourself by calling names and making unfounded but emotionally satisfying accusations?

    Seriously. I don’t get trolling. You’ll have to explain.

  229. cranky-d – Let’s leave poor Charlie the Unicorn out of this one. Hasn’t he suffered enough?

  230. Oh. The ol’ “you’re too stoopid to understand” trope.

    Funny. It is to laugh. Ha.

  231. kelly – I am an attorney. I can be insufferable, and yet I can also show sincerity and humility. And I am willing to accept hair-loss without resorting to expedients.

    And since there is no second lady, I will promote the USO as a worthy organization and bring it to greater attention.

  232. Hoping to entertain yourself by calling names and making unfounded but emotionally satisfying accusations?

    This one.
    Its a tiny, pathetic world it lives in.

  233. Those who “loath the military” or gain all knowledge about the structure, psyche, culture, or operations of the military from movies and popular culture have no investment in whether a volunteer will go to do what they are asked to do, in their name, versus national leadership.

    I think that’s the point of “draft everyone” though. Since war is work and risky and terrible, If everyone’s lucre and persone was draftable, everyone would apply so much more pressure for solutions that do not involve it on the persons who vote for or order war. …. And as you suggest, there will be the stubborn resistance of those non-volunteers, who will farking mess up wars if asked to serve, or pay for them, making war a less attractive option for warmongering leadership because prosecution of a war is made more uncertain and difficult.

    The goal is indirect. Raise the cost of war for everyone, and get less war.

    Cause if you can’t keep a Republican from getting support for a war, or people rallying round the flag, you end up with no gay marriage.

  234. Those who “loath the military” or gain all knowledge about the structure, psyche, culture, or operations of the military from movies and popular culture have no investment in whether a volunteer will go to do what they are asked to do, in their name, versus national leadership.

    I think that’s the point of “draft everyone” though. Since war is work and risky and terrible, If everyone’s lucre and persone was draftable, everyone would apply so much more pressure for solutions that do not involve it on the persons who vote for or order war. …. And as you suggest, there will be the stubborn resistance of those non-volunteers, who will farking mess up wars if asked to serve, or pay for them, making war a less attractive option for warmongering leadership because prosecution of a war is made more uncertain and difficult.

    The goal is indirect. Raise the cost of war for everyone, and get less war.

    Cause if you can’t keep a Republican from getting support for a war, or people rallying round the flag, you end up with no gay marriage.

  235. Oh, I’m tired and all out of hummus.
    Off to my bowl of porridge, then bed.

  236. Is it just me or has the amount of comments here slowed to a freakin crawl?

  237. SarahW, try hummus without chickpeas.

    [Emulsify can of tahini with juice of seven/eight lemons in a blender (added bit by bit, like butter in hollandaise), many ground garlic cloves (to taste), salt, pepper, olive oil, T.(s) water to obtain preferred viscosity.]

  238. “Comment by ST on 8/27 @ 1:17 pm #

    To make things as clear as an unmuddied lake, as clear as an azure sky of deepest summer–anyone who was eligible to become one of the lives lost in Iraq–yet declined and cheerleaded nonetheless, is a Chickenhawk.

    Plain.

    And simple.”

    And your MOS was…….?

  239. Well maybe we can practice first Lisa and for the next war maybe liberals can just try not propagandizing for the enemy. If they get that down we can maybe explore rifle training and stuff. Baby steps.

    Hat Trick !

    This almost convinces me you’re not really a troublemaker, ‘feets.

  240. 237 -
    Maybe. Its also possible that the majority of commenters are out West, so maybe its drivetime or dinner…

  241. Sdferr – isn’t hummus w/o chickpeas a bit like a hamburger without ground beef?

  242. #234 Sarah W.:

    The goal is indirect. Raise the cost of war for everyone, and get less war.

    Except, as you know, there is the other side. Just because you* are not interested in a fight does not mean the other guy isn’t.**

    *generic you – not Sarah W. personally.
    **See the cold record of history – especially the middle of the Twentieth Century.

  243. I thought that to be a neocon, you had to be (a) Jewish (b) formerly on the Left.

    Honestly, that defense mechanism is getting old.

    Are you hoping to change our minds? Make us reconsider our positions in light of your gibing? Hoping to entertain yourself by calling names and making unfounded but emotionally satisfying accusations?

    I could ask the same of Rush Limbaugh. Or Sean Hannity. Or Jonah Goldberg. Or Michele Malkin. Or the entirety of Regency and FOX news.

    Do you have a point, or are you just fucking with me?

  244. Hey, Mikey. I post here roughly once every third blue moon so you most likely have never seen me. I saw in a previous thread you mentioned the high school you attended and also the fact your father taught at another. FWIW, I thought I’d toss out that I’m a Fordson grad (’77), although my younger brother attended Dearborn.

  245. It was taught me by an Armenian who learned it from his mom, steve-o, being their way, he said. But try it, you might like it. I do.

  246. oh, and more like hamburger without breadcrumbs, if I were to say.

  247. not drivetime til 35 more minutes. Ok 34.

  248. Honestly, that defense mechanism is getting old.

    Define “neocon”.

  249. Never would have thought of eliminating the chickpeas, especially as seeing how I don’t particularly like tahini straight from the jar. I wonder – maybe the Armenian way was necessitated by a lack of chickpeas?

  250. “#Comment by ST on 8/27 @ 4:20 pm #

    dicentra – No further argument is required. You presented a difference with a distinction that exists only in what’s left of your tiny little neocon brain.

    I suggest you to run immediately to the roof of your house–squint really hard until you can see Iran from there–and then yell “To War!””

    I was talking to my son, MAtt the Marine, the other night.

    He’s in California training up for a deployment.

    The scuttlebutt is that instead of Irag, they’ll be deploying to Afghanistan.

    So, ST?

    Fuck you, the horse you rode in on, and all the Hussars trotting along behind.

  251. I could ask the same of Rush Limbaugh. Or Sean Hannity. Or Jonah Goldberg. Or Michele Malkin. Or the entirety of Regency and FOX news.

    Oh, so you’re a nationally syndicated pundit. But of course.

    More like a cretinous little nobody with a not so latent psychosexual bent for trying to be provacative towards people with whom you disagree idealogically. Keep strokin’ it, sonny boy.

  252. “Maybe on Thursday, when he decends from mount Obamus and addresses the masses at Mile High Stadium…”

    I’m so sorry. But His Holiness is going to adress us from THE TEMPLE OF OBAMA!”

    I can’t wait to see this shit, reminiscent of the Theird Reich (or do I mean Robert Reicshhhhhhhh?).

    Obama is going to be buried in the GE, and the Dems already know it. But he is “black”, and therefore, as unviable as he is, they have to go through with this suicide pact.

    I find it amusing that they call me a “racist”, even though I go out of my way to help anyone who is willing to help themselves, regardless of ethnicity. And, at the moment, I don’t have a pot to piss in. But I will do whatever I can to help anyone who wants to help themselves.

    Once again (in case you missed it before), I AM A JERKIST.

    Bummer, huh, thor? I’m sorry that I am smart enough to have “your number”.

  253. Is it racist to call Obama white? Would that decrease his polling numbers? Or help him in Bidenland?

  254. “Parthenon for the course”

    “Obamaopolis”

  255. “Obamandias, King of Kings”

  256. oh. For veep I would like Fred.

    On the other hand…

  257. “Greek Tragedy”

  258. The Temple of Odooma

  259. So I mis-spelled “provocative.” Sue me.

    TLD: I’m beginning to think the same thing about the GE: O! goes down hard. Unfortunately that leaves us with…McCain. Ack.

  260. It is OK kelley… at least we will know that all the strawberries are accounted for.

  261. This massive Draft thing is just too rich, really.

    “Hey, lets increase the power of the government over everyone’s lives! Real life-or-death stuff! Then war will be, like, over and the Repubs will never get in power ever again!”

    “But we gotta keep teh civilian oversight! Who will watch the watchers and stuff!”

    “Duh, WE will! Who else is teh qualified?”

    /bong pass

  262. Omopylae

  263. Not following, Rich.

  264. Plain.

    And simple.

    Less is moron.

  265. I could ask the same of Rush Limbaugh. Or Sean Hannity. Or Jonah Goldberg. Or Michele Malkin.

    Somebody is paying you to come here and dazzle us with your drooling abilities? I didn’t know there was a pro league for morons, but I am betting you make the all star team.

  266. (kelly… hint…. Humphrey Bogart) And no one else help…

  267. steve-o:

    Dad taught history, government, and economics at Fordson.

    Fred Orris. He retired in ’91 and is still well and very with it.

    My older brother graduated Dearborn High in 1980, I graduated in 1984, and my little brother graduated in 1988.

  268. Went searching and found this recipe steve-o. Seems to fit, more or less (with the garlic on the less side) what I remember. Why my pal described it as hummus, I dunno. Maybe he was making cultural allowances for the dumb ‘Merican he was dealing with?

  269. #253 TLD:

    That would be descending from Mount Obamus to the Ocropolis and giving the Word straight from The Oracle at Denver.

    And people say that I get dramatic.

  270. Mikey:

    Mr. Orris. Sorry to say I never had a class of his. Did you know a guy a year ahead of you everyone called Stumpy?

  271. Mikey NTH The Oracle at Denver

    That would not be the same redhead as in Sparta though… would it?

  272. I could ask the same of Rush Limbaugh. Or Sean Hannity. Or Jonah Goldberg. Or Michele Malkin. Or the entirety of Regency and FOX news.

    That’s non-responsive, ST. I asked you a simple question: why troll here?

    If you insist on sidestepping the question, I will be forced to assume that the answer would put you in a most unflattering light.

    Because if you can’t publicly admit to your motives, why are you doing it?

  273. For fuck’s sake, why do you even care what I think.

    Oh, I forgot, I’m talking to the party of “How DARE you” and “Who do YOU think you’re talking to”, etc.

    You need to get over yourselves.

    We did it. We had to do it.

  274. #260 kelly:

    I want the old war-horse to win. Because we are back in Kipling’s World; the post WWI-WWII order is dead and needs to be buried. The stench is getting too strong.

    Terrorists, and brigands, and pirates, and borders being only where a nation enforces it, and troopers on the tide. The real reality rears its head and laughs.

    Science fiction isn’t a guide to the future, history is.

    And for all the O’Brien’s out there – you can re-write history all you want, it still comes knocking on the door But it worked so well with the Soviet Union! And Mao’s China!

  275. why do you even care what I think

    Because, how can we miss you if you won’t go away?

    We did it. We had to do it.

    Well get on with it then.

  276. No, steve-o. Didn’t know any ‘Stumpy’. Sorry.

    Now, in dad’s department there was Mr. Gross, Mr. Petrie, Dr. King, Mr. Stoynoff, Ms. Baron, and others I subbed for whose names I can’t remember right now. Ms. Gee taught English, as did Mr. Noelke. Mr. Rockwell was one of the vice principals.

    N.B. – I did my subbing 1988 to 1993. Then off to law school.

    If your brother went to DHS then he would have known of Mr. Lanzi (Animal Ed) and Russ Gibb (he has a website).

  277. kelly…. sorry. Wanted to give you some time. I was alluding to The Caine Mutiny…. the movie anyway. McCain has an uncanny resemblance, at least in voice etc, to Bogart’s Queeg.

  278. I once slept on a sinister trampoline in the winter moonlight. Was that you? Do you still have my naked ass print? Vodka is a helluva drink.

  279. #272 El Tejon:

    Probably not – I don’t think the wife would approve of that. She’ll tell Oballo – and tell, and tell…

  280. Trampoline, heal thyself!

  281. #278 El Tejon:

    Please remember that Humphrey Bogart also starred in To Have and Have Not with the 20 year old Lauren Bacall. And he ended up marrying her. Ever see the picture of Miss Bacall on top of the piana as vice-president Truman was playing it?

    A-Hem!

    And John McCain ended up scoring with Cindy McCain – a hottie who inheirited a beer distributorship.
    Comparing a presidential candidate to Humphrey Bogart is a win for that candidate, I think.

  282. ST, #217, still waiting. Everybody’s got a right to their opinion, but a little background would help us in measuring the worth of yours.

  283. why do you even care what I think.

    Partly because I truly don’t get trolling. Perhaps your answers can help me understand the phenomenon. Turns out that your non-answers are pretty instructive, too.

    And second, I’m hoping to induce a little self-reflection in you, because I suspect that the motives for trolling are quite different from the motives for engaging in intelligent debate. I also suspect that the motives for trolling are not very flattering to the trolls.

    Sometimes, when people examine their motives, they realize that they probably shouldn’t be doing what they’re doing, or at least they should take a different approach.

    See? I showed you my motives. Now you show me yours.

  284. I had Gross and Petrie as teachers and…..Osterberg (Daddy Iggy!!) for English, among others.

    In the spring/summer of ’83 I was waiting to go away to Air Force OTS, so I spent my time hanging out with the neighborhood youth (my friends were all working responsibly) and going to bleacher parties at the dogbone.

    Russ Gibb subbed at Fordson when I was there. He wouldn’t really teach, but instead regaled us with stories about his days running the Grande ballroom and wild stuff about the MC5 and others. Some years later, I managed to get on his Dearborn cable TV show by correctly identifying Pete Townsend in a photograph he was displaying. I peruse his website occasionally to get a flavor of what’s happening around the old stomping grounds.

  285. My motive is that I like blathering on about things, and hope that at some point I make an intelligent contribution to the discussion.

    I am needy like that.

  286. Dicentra spectabilis – I will leave a post on your blog late tomorrow.

    Nice meeting you.

  287. @282 Mikey NTH Mmmmm….. endless beer……

    Do not take me wrong. I did have to get over that Queeg thing, and I was not happy (initially) with his forays into AF procurements. But, I have accepted him. I hope not in a blind party loyalty way.

  288. Good to see I hit a few teachers you had! I know Mr. Petrie is still well, my parents saw him last year at the ‘Rusty Tractors’ gathering in Frankenmuth. I worked with him on some things and he is a really great guy.

    Mr. Gross had this thing where he would say “You want to hear the original Polish joke?” If you said yes, he’d start rattling off in Polish.

    Russ found his niche at DHS with the video program, I had him and used to sub for him because he said I understood what his students were like (goofier than all get-out).

    *ahem* Oil Job!

    (I hope I got that right.)

  289. ST and I will be having it out here later tomorrow, if you want to bookmark it and pop some corn.

  290. wow, jeff’s a “truther” now eh?

    the imaginary war on terror is on. Obama is in the sights of the Right who want this war to continue to gut the middle class and lower wages and reduce taxes for the Oligarchs. Jahvo! el Jeffe.

    I love this shit. A highly political GOP US attorney in Colorado tries to obscure an obvious crazy plot to kill Obama and no one complains. However, T. Freidman does earn his pay on this article explaining how wingnuts and their war on Terror have damaged this country. And how about the damage that Bush’s ‘war on terror’ has done to freedom in America?

    Instead, the GOP gives us Meth crazy neo Nazi’s with guns crushing to kill a Democrat which are OK for 2nd Amendment loving dittoheads and the Press like lapdogs obeys the Federales who want to cover up that there are a lot of McVies out there.

    But jeff worries about Obama’s middle name and his Manchurian Roots.

    But sadly he ignores the real Egyptian connection within his own bailiwick: The Man who covers over a very credible plot to kill Obama is himself a Wingunut” U added for emphasis.

    obeying orders from the Boss!

    Oh, yeah. Some real bullshit in Colorado…but jeff has to dig way, way back there in the pass.

    Perhaps, there’s an opening at Troy Eid’s office for you? Darleen could send a reference?

    I love the humor. Thor, go for it!

    perhaps the crytic offering here is where jeff’s Obama fixation should lead him to: I once slept on a sinister trampoline in the winter moonlight. Was that you? Do you still have my naked ass print? Vodka is a helluva drink.

    I know the FBI is 95 percent Republican but Colorado proved it’s political cover-ups are continuing. They Need to find some environmentalists to have a war on terror on?

    Troy Eid’s your man! He’ll find some black Muslims soon to put away for 20 years for obscure threats to no one.

  291. The dogbone is one I don’t know.
    Or maybe I do, but the memory isn’t kicking in.

    Of course I worked at Camp Dearborn after graduation, so I wasn’t in town much in the summer. Missed Homecoming this year, I’ll try to get there next year. It’ll be my 25 year high school anniversary, so there will be people I’ll know milling about. Missed the camp’s 50th party, but I was on patrol with the USCGAux that weekend. I’ll stop by and say hi out there before the year is out.

  292. Eid. Isn’t that a Muslim holiday?

    Oooohhhhh…. That’s the connection, isn’t it?

  293. #288 El Tejon:

    John McCain is a dick. Barack Obama is a pussy.

    That, I think, is enough analysis.

  294. #291 I notice you’re still free to have your say ,even after 8 years of fascist Bushitler etc. Exactly what freedoms have we lost? And how are 3 meth-heads with guns a plot? And how come the government stopped them after the “GOP” gave them to us?

  295. @294

    Than who is the asshole? Way to go FAG!

  296. One MRE too many:

    Be glad you didn’t have some of my brother’s rations which had Korean War dates on the cans.
    And Jeff – our host – a ‘truther’? That is some good crazy you got going there.

    I find it interesting how the supporters of Sen. Obama come here and act so weird. Like cultists incensed that any would say a bad thing about their prophet. It really says a lot – but not in a good way.

  297. #296 El Tejon:

    Who is the asshole? Well, there are the pussy’s supporters. A pussy is only an inch and a half away from an asshole.

  298. I missed something.

  299. Plot to kill O? How about Obama going all Chicago-style along with the DNC and having Denver cops as paid rent-a-thugs to keep embarrassing pics out of the media?

  300. Ahh, crap. I have to be a responsible adult and get everything ready for tomorrow and then go to bed.

    ‘Night all.

  301. “I notice you’re still free to have your say ,even after 8 years of fascist Bushitler etc.”

    I don’t think Jeff et al are really worried about Obama taking anyone’s freedom away. But it’s the Narrative. Lies will make them free.

    Yeah, I am really free to work ’til I drop. That’s like a concentration camp . eh?

    so why after Bush’s tax cuts and regulatory cuts is the average American 2 thousand dollars poorer as a result? (accounting for inflation)

    some people rob you with a sixgun, others rob you with a fountain pen. Bushists are in the later cohort.

    (modernize it to a computer and modem)

  302. MRE robs us of the milliseconds we spend scanning his comments before skipping to the next one.

  303. the Troy Eid’s are cute conservatives. NOT!

    bend the law beckhamms, more likely. Notedly friends of Jack Abramoff.

  304. I am sure worried about Obama taking my money away that’s for sure.

  305. MRE ran out of hummus, too. And switched to methanol.

  306. Did the hotel have some rights to that piece of pavement? Was it in a privat loadin area or something?

  307. He doesn’t have any links and I think maybe he has issues.

  308. loadin*g*. Naptime didn’ work.

  309. I think one of my fingers must be missing.

  310. SarahW

    If you see the video, its a wide sidewalk fronting a public street with people walking along it.

    If Denver grants public sidewalks as “private” property, that’s some weird shit.

    Personally, I don’t buy it. And it doesn’t excuse the thug behavior by the fat fuck who is pretending to be a cop.

  311. SarahW

    I just went back and looked at the very beginning. The camera crew is NOT blocking the sidewalk, you can see people walking by with no problem, even as that fat fuck starts assaulting the reporter.

  312. I thought “teh crazy” was perma-banned…

  313. some people rob you with a sixgun, others rob you with a fountain pen.

    Still others do it with charm.

  314. #294 Mikey NTH:

    John McCain is a dick. Barack Obama is a pussy.
    That, I think, is enough analysis.

    Works for me. Well said.

  315. Just a little background… the Brown Palace is a very swank hotel. If you could not already guess. Would the DNC ever actually meet at a Motel 6 like the rest of us? In the Hiawatha Room?

  316. I don’t think Jeff et al are really worried about Obama taking anyone’s freedom away.

    I am. Absolutely I am.

    And I defy you to explain how federal benefits are not roughly inversely proportional to personal freedoms. Go ahead.

    More to the point, is it the bewildering, amazing, pitiful societal softness and its utterly empty delusions of hopeychangitude or is it the hatred and derangement of traditional and unhinged moonbattery that motivates the Democrats this cycle? Because what I’m seeing at the convention is quite beyond words.

    If you want my opinion, I think swaths of my countrymen have taken leave of their senses. I say that because if it’s not the characteristic deluded hatred speaking, all that’s left is surely the voice of the sorry milquetoast generation that’s finally out of the closet and openly asking not what you can do for your country but what it can do for you.

    Which brings me back to the first question: Are we really, somehow, and against all reason, finally that soft? Or softheaded?

  317. MRE,

    Thinking of yourself as a victim, especially when you have the affluence to find yourself on the web moaning at people who don’t see themselves as victims, is unhealthy and self destructive.

    Get help.

  318. 302 MRE

    Ever hear of the “Fairness Doctrine”?

    And I’d say confiscatory taxes of over 50% of one’s income is pretty chilling when it comes to speech…especially when you know criticism gets you an IRS audit.

  319. Somewhat OT:

    Here I sit in western Massachusetts. Last time I was here was December of ’04, and the yards were still full of Kerry signs.

    I have seen two (2) Obama yard signs.

    Regards,
    Ric

  320. The Brown Palace is such an appropriate sounding place for the Dems to meet with lobbyists, don’t you think?

    And Ric, I was so hoping for a limerick after that opening line.

  321. You know Ric

    For “blue” California, I’ve seen NO O! yard signs and no O! bumperstickers.

    And heck I saw the Kerry/Edwards bumperstickers once or twice a week up to about 1 year ago.

  322. In the interests of context, how many McCain signs have you seen.

    I think that stuff will come out now that VPs are chosen. (or about to be in McCains case)

  323. Jhoward: I have had the pleasure of living and working smack in the middle of this spectacle. I am a democrat, and I am disgusted with this half-assed, incompetent bunch of cowed losers. The “protesters” are mostly anarchists, who pitch a bitch at a hat’s drop; and even they are weak bullion.

    I am so disillusioned that I have no interest in this convention beyond my own inconvenience. I wasn’t invited to any of the sexay partays.

  324. Lee

    I’ll keep watch, but one takes a risk with a McCain sign or bumpersticker in certain CA neighborhoods. Leftcultists don’t respect private property and I don’t need my car keyed.

  325. The reason is appreciated, cynn.

    So, is there a sense around you that today’s crop has trampled JFK’s adage into oblivion? Because I’m seeing veiled bread and circuses and not so veiled nannyism and that gaggingly lukewarm neo-Americanna of said specatcle, and we all know what happens to tacit understandings between voters and candidates when really what’s going on is that there’s new dole to dispense and new power to own…

  326. And is that a throne room? Paint that sucker red and it’s right out of the Temple of Doom…

  327. There are such things as private sidewalks, but most have public easments.

    Hmmm. I want to think of the best case that can be made for overburdening public easement on a private sidewalk.

    It’s possible to “overburden” the public easement that almost certainly exists there, assuming it is a private sidewalk, which I doubt.

    But it doesn’t look as if they were blocking peoples way. The hotel complained they were. It’s the hotel that called police. The police ordered them to move and they wouldn’t.

    I don’t know anything about Denver trespass ordinances or whether that is, or even could be, a private sidewalk. I’m hoping that gets cleared right up, since I’m too lazy to go troll for the answer.

  328. And really, who is writing this stuff?!

  329. Has anyone mentioned the noble sewer worker? Because I am most definitely a chickendookieprocessorhawk. I want him to do that job. I need him to do his job. But I’m not touching it with a 10 foot pole.

    Ric, that might be because Kerry signs were free.

  330. Darleen

    Yeah, I live in the Fresno area, much more conservative than the big three California urban areas that dictate our politics. I still have a W-’04 bumpersticker on my truck, but perhaps it’s the NRA one next to it that prevents vandalism.

    I haven’t seen any political signs yet, but like I said, I think they usually aren’t prevalent until the VP choice is made.

    We’ll see…

  331. Lee

    I wish I could have had a Bush sticker on my car

    The closest I got was putting a sticker on my car to defeat the attempt to wipe out the Three Strikes Law…

    and got keyed.

  332. I will say something. The cops have been overkill, but largely cool. We have had a paltry number of arrests, compared to what we were prepared for. Crime overall has been down (maybe a mental result of massive presense). The cops let an unauthorized parade from a Rage Against the Machine concert proceed to the convention center. I was actually surprised.

  333. Folks,

    No McCain signs at all. But, then, last time there weren’t any W signs or bumper stickers.

    Western Massachusetts and upstate New York are not Boston and NYC, respectively. Still, though, I get the sense that nobody is happy except a few of the people George Washington warned us about. It seems to me that cynn’s attitude (which mirrors mine) is fairly prevalent.

    It may be time for libertarians to start again on the campaign to get “None of the Above is Acceptable” on the ballot. If it were there this time, it would get a slim majority of the popular vote. If you added “…and everybody concerned is barred from politics for forty years or until the Coming of the Mahdi, whichever occurs first” it would win the electoral college. And if the addition was “…shoot them all and bury them in unconsecrated ground” it would carry thirty-seven States and Puerto Rico.

    Regards,
    Ric

  334. Keyed.

    That has to be the most craven, self-indulgent , useless act of petty thuggery I can think of. J howard, are you right? Are we now a nation of 12 yo knuckleheads?

  335. That sucks Darleen.

    You must understand though, it was likely an idealistic humanitarian did it. Someone deeply concerned about the right of repeat felons.

    You know, rights like free speech and stuff.

    It was for your own edification don’t you know…

  336. More likely an asshole with two strikes though.

  337. “Comment by one MRE too many on 8/27 @ 6:56 pm #”

    FOUR lies in one heading.

    That could be a world’s record, folks.

  338. More helpful Obama campaign behavior designed to help us all get to know their candidate better, from Ben Smith at the Politico. h/t insty

  339. Well, in shitstained, center of the class warfare universe, Cleveland, Ohio the bumper sitckers/signs ratio is approximately 10 to 1 going in O!’s favor. But that isn’t to be unexpected at all. I live in a overwhelmigly democratic, slightly progressive enclave so it’s par for the course. Just an FYI from this neck of the impoverished, obese, illiterate neck of the woods. Or so the studies tell us…

  340. C’mon, Sdferr — you know the rules…

    If you have the facts, argue the facts.

    If you have the law, argue the law.

    If you have neither, bang your shoe on the table.

    Barry is just hammering the table with his loafers.

  341. I liked this bit from the Smith article, particularly in it’s contrast with my mental image of Stanley Kurtz voice over the radio:

    “…It is absolutely unacceptable that WGN would give a slimy character assassin like Kurtz time for his divisive, destructive ranting on our public airwaves. At the very least, they should offer sane, honest rebuttal to every one of Kurtz’s lies,” it continues. …”

  342. SW Michigan.

    I’ve only seen one bumper sticker, an Obama one on a Cadillac Escalade in front of me at the Credit Union last week. A few Obama and McCain yard signs. Also Ron Paul, umm stickers isn’t the right word, cars, no, old trucks covered with large Ron Paul stuff. There aren’t that many but they do stand out.

    McCain sent us bumper stickers but like Darleen I don’t need a keyed car. If I put it on the “beater” it would not send a good message for McCain I think. Too Ron Paulish that heap.

  343. Are we now a nation of 12 yo knuckleheads?

    Watching this convention you would be hard pressed to articulate how we’re not.

    I’ll repeat my challenge to the leftists — any leftist(s) — to also articulate a valid, philosophically-rooted, credible, worth-hearing defense of present-day leftism’s intellectual platform. Because all that’s going on at this convention is approximately half of the most unique and valuable experiment in country-making in history acting like the dependent half-wits they apparently want to be. This is charade — this giant clown-feet of politics — is appalling. Tell me there’s something behind the curtain pulling the strings because this is a parody of itself. Please. At least then it’d make sense.

  344. Did you see that column Insty linked by John Murtagh?

    Fire in the Night

    The Weathermen tried to kill my family

    Here’s a question I’d like answered.
    It’s one thing to worry about Obama’s judgement and his particular choice of sponsors, mentors, and friends, and associates.

    What do they see in him? How is it these people decided to give him notice, help, friendship, opportunities? Did they spot some kind of kindred spirit? Is that how they see him?

  345. Don’t you think that this sort of stuff makes it crystal clear the Obama campaign is SCARED SHITLESS over this Ayers/Obama CAC linkage? (Precisely because they know what’s coming.)

  346. I saw that a couple of months ago Sarah, linked at the CityJournal I think.

  347. Oh. I didn’t check your link. Sorry.

  348. What do they see in him?

    Whatever it is, they can’t possibly be serious about it constituting a proper CiC. It’s simply impossible. It is a mass projection of vague, feel-good socialism, and it is one at best.

  349. Also from the Smith article.

    “says the email, which picks up a form of pressure on the press pioneered by conservative talk radio hosts and activists in the 1990s, and since adopted by Media Matters and other liberal groups.”

    I don’t remember conservatives pressuring stations not to have pundits on to talk and especially don’t recall any political candidates doing so.

    Even if a conservative radio host did, there is a heck of a difference between a radio show host and a Presidential candidate when it comes to being able to intimidate media outlets.

  350. Is there a leftist’s analog to gaydar, you think?

  351. JHoward: I’ll take a crack at it: First of all, I’d let all the financial institutions fail. No more bailout or government propup. Do you dare, Mr. Swaggering Man?

  352. You tell me, cynn: Is it just to turn responsibility on its head, defraud a planet of workers and producers, incentivize the baser human flaws like envy, theft, and financial fraud, and then promote an ongoing and quite rampant irresponsibility such as the Democrats do as a matter of course?

    Winning yourself a point because I, Swaggering Man, cannot solve that problem for you — it is an eternal issue with the human condition, one greatly aided in its depravity by politicians, whom I despise for it — actually serves no goal I can see. Did you have a point?

  353. JHoward,

    The way they talk, Americans are living in third world conditions, starving, down-trodden, looking at a war ravaged nation from our chicken coop abodes.

    I think none of their constituents have a clue the enormous privilege it is to be an American, much less feel appreciation for it.

    Nothing but a pack of fearful, whining, bitching, spoiled children.

  354. I don’t remember conservatives pressuring stations not to have pundits on to talk and especially don’t recall any political candidates doing so.

    Can you imagine the reaction if a Bush administration email like that was revealed? MREs head would explode.

  355. I thought it was pretty straitforward. Government hands-off, allow failures to fail, sin-eaters eat the sin, etc. But then you bust out with some riff about a break dancing economy? Speak English.

  356. You may have something there, cynn. First though, when you say “…let all…etc…” precisely what “all” are you referring to?

    Furthermore, how is this one, narrow, policy position an answer to JHoward’s plea for “…a valid, philosophically-rooted, credible, worth-hearing defense of present-day leftism’s intellectual platform. …”, a rather more generalized aim, no?

    But, leaving that aside, do you dare? Have you worked through an account of the likely fallout of such a decision? Are these failures necessary to repairing the institutional banking system? Or are they so small as to be at once, not necessary as well as insufficient to achieve any larger systemic change?

    Who suffers, for instance, and how they will react to their suffering? Are the people likely to suffer the same people who caused the problems that led to the insolvencies (and indeed, are these the people you would be willing to see getting hurt by the failure)? Do the malefactors skip away relatively unharmed?

    If the failures are larger (large enough to begin systemic change), how do they ripple out across the economic pond to affect other economic actors farther from the source of troubles for good or ill? Are these effects just? Are they desirable? Useful?

  357. you bust out with some riff about a break dancing economy? Speak English.

    Whatever that could possibly mean.

    I retract the first line of #326.

  358. Andy McCarthy on the Kurtz smear and radio appearance.

    Heh.

  359. J howard, are you right? Are we now a nation of 12 yo knuckleheads?

    When well over half the population can’t seem to grasp the problem with trying to declare healthcare a right, I would have to think so.

  360. Here’s the deal, and I by no means speak for anyone other than me. Rip the rancid carpet up. Let whatever rotten parts of the economy need to fail, let them go. Who cares who suffers? We all do. We live in a hall of mirrors. What are you worth? If you’re in stocks, it’s an illusion. Do I think Obama can patch this sucking wound? Hell no.

  361. Sdferr

    I guess we’re seeing the first division of Obama’s “civilian security force, equal to the military” in action.

  362. It appears to me you are just spouting in 361.

    “rancid carpet”? “rotten parts”? “hall of mirrors”? “patch sucking wound”?

    That stuff is rhetorical piffle, substanceless blather with(?) floating referents no one but you can know.

    “Who cares”? “We all do”? “in stocks, it’s an illusion”?

    These phrases, while meaningful enough, all seem to be too extensive, over-reaching for effect.

  363. Great post at #357, Sdferr.

    cynn, the problem, using your narrow example, is indeed systemic, and as such, it’s global — the system is closed and since it’s all on that same hook by now, reforming it individually is bitter medicine. It’s also gone into a type of positive feedback where the sheer artificiality of it’s many corruptions of supply/demand have, as I alluded, rewarded envy, laziness, fraud, irresponsibility. Doing the right thing costs too much. We’ll postpone paying.

    It is this latter condition — the symptom of the “economic recession”, which is itself a barometer of a systemic and not merely a cyclical monetary problem — that the Dems exploit. That’s why they, ever the parasitic, envious, lying, taxing opportunists, cannot and will not address the core issue. Addressing the cause is too dangerous.

    The Republicans, being now on the same sordid political continuum as the Democrats, serve only as a slower route to globalization and the loss of personal freedom. Notice the Fed this year taking a shitload more power over the private sector as the result of the problems it created? That’s how you grow government, reduce freedom, and enslave — you make fraud a practical virtue and yourself the enforcer against those who fell in your service.

  364. Call them the “Radio Purity Corps” Darleen.

  365. Let whatever rotten parts of the economy need to fail, let them go. Who cares who suffers?

    Can’t do it, cynn. The handlers suffer. There’s therefore no political resolve and only slightly more realization of what’s been built over the last half dozen monetary decades. Remember, it’s systemic. It was a bad idea gone wrong with no way to pay for it but to replace it, literally.

    How do you pay sixty trillion dollars in debt and obligations when every dollar you create is loaned into existence and then loaned again some ten times? Where will the interest dollars come from?

    Systemic. It fails and is replaced.

    So, there’s the problem the Dem’s make hay about. In other words, they cannot articulate why they exist except to be parasites. They produce nothing but a drag on the system, one it can’t support forever.

  366. It seems we are on the road right now to both presidential candidates in 2012 promising competing tax rebates. Dems will offer 2000 dollars to anyone making under 50 thousand a year and the Reps will offer 1000. Either way at that point we will all be screwed.

  367. #352
    Comment by cynn on 8/27 @ 9:23 pm #

    JHoward: I’ll take a crack at it: First of all, I’d let all the financial institutions fail. No more bailout or government propup. Do you dare, Mr. Swaggering Man?

    Howsabout we/they just put em on the market and see if anybody wants to take a risk on em. Sort of what was done in the S&L fiasco. That way the people who are responsible will be punished and not the so-called little people.
    it isn’t a zero sum game.

  368. Well we outsource our oil production to Saudi Arabia why do we not let our lending institutions fail so our citizens can borrow money directly from the Chinese for their mortgages? Sounds like a plan to me.

  369. What are you worth? If you’re in stocks, it’s an illusion.

    Odd… most stocks represent partial ownership of a company and its assets. The company may fail, the assets may become worthless, but you still own them. It’s the same with buying land — the land may become worthless (is permanently flooded by an act of nature, for example), but you still own it. That wealth is not “illusion” — it’s real. The worth may be over-inflated by market fads and when that fad ends the value may shrink — see the dot-com bubble — but it’s still real.

    Anyone who purchases shares should understand that; if they don’t, it’s their own failure.

  370. Rob Crawford

    Leftists don’t seem to grasp, or refuse to, the basics of economics. I mean nitty gritty “I make widget A and trade it for your thingamabob B” economics. The anti-capitalist crowd basically are into Free Lunches … they want what they want, they want it now, and they want guarantees.

    The radical feminist crowd even is putting forward that the phrase “capitalist feminist” is an oxymoron because capitalism is about “inequity”…:::snort::::

    That’s up there with Nancy Pelosi saying natural gas is not a fossil fuel.

  371. Rod, explaining economics to JHoward and similar thinkers is a thankless task. They are so focused on the concrete that they cannot accept the reality. Just because you can’t hold something in your hand doesn’t mean it isn’t real, but hard-monetists can’t wrap their minds around that.

    If A has X, and B has Y, they each have some fraction of wealth. If A would prefer to have Y, then Y is more valuable to A than X is — if A had Y, he would be richer than he is. If B would prefer X, the same situation holds in the other direction. And if the two of them trade, both are richer than before and the society they are embedded in adds a (perhaps small) increment of wealth.

    We know that works if we simply look around. Two hundred years ago there were fewer than a billion people on the planet; now there are seven times as many of us, and on average we’re actually eating better. It’s still the same planet, with the same stuff on it. Where did the additional wealth come from? From billions, trillions, of trades like A and B did.

    But an economy based on hard money can’t express or denominate the increment of wealth from “unconstrained exchange” — A and B may feel richer after trading, but there’s no way to express that in terms that add the increase to the wealth of the society they live in. Soft money, which expands and contracts according to the wealth of the society, can do that — and does. That’s how you can feed six and a half billion people, and buy most of them cell phones, on the same resources that kept nine hundred million barely out of abject poverty.

    Is it a scam? Sure. Life is a scam, skimming from the flow of passing energy for selfish benefit. Carpe diem.

    Regards,
    Ric

  372. Stanley Kurtz, who writes at NRO and occasionally the Weekly Standard, has been researching Barack Obama’s history in Chicago. He has been particularly interested in Obama’s community organizing work with ACORN, the Gamaliel Foundation, Rev. J. Wright and TUCC, and Bill Ayers and the Chicago Annenberg Challenge.

    Kurtz had recently obtained, then was subsequently denied and now once again has been granted access to the archived records of the now defunct CAC, which have been gifted to the Library of the Univ. of Illinois at Chicago.

    Yesterday Kurtz appeared on the Milt Rosenburg radio show on WGN. The show was inundated by protest by e-mail and telephone (the like of which Rosenburg attests, has never occurred in his 30 yrs doing the show) stirred up by the Obama campaign. The Milt Rosenburg Show has made the podcast available here.

    The frenzied reaction of the Obama campaign is potentially instructive. It certainly gives pause as to what matter, evidently yet to be discovered, may be in the files of the CAC that causes such concern.

  373. The WashingtonTimes writes up Sen. Obama’s Illinois Senate history and votes, shockingly discovering that Obama was far to the left of his party.

  374. Steve Diamond, a Democrat political scientist and law professor who writes the Global Labor and Politics Blog has also been following the Obama/Ayers connections with a view to understanding the CAC. Diamond called the Rosenburg show last night and had substantive commentary to add to the discussion. He has a post up this morning on the smears against Kurtz last night.

  375. Several times since 2003 I have e-mailed various conservative writers about the Gamaliel Foundation which seemed to be “flying under the radar” as it was never mentioned as part of the Left’s network of Foundations. This is the first mention I’ve ever seen of them by anyone other than myself.

  376. The are quite possibly a big deal. Their website is here.

  377. Yes, I know. Saw them up close and personal in 2003 when one of their “local” groups came to our, then, church to organize it.

    I had to do a lot of internet searching to discover that the supposed small local group was actually just the local arm of a much larger indeed international organization whose aims were much more radical than what the local group “said” they were.

    The meeting I went to was exactly like the ones for SDS and other groups recruitment meetings that I remember from my days as a student in the late 60s. That was why I spent the time to figure out who was behind the small “local” group.

  378. No further argument is required

    This word “further” does not mean what you think it means. Implicit is the existence of a prior argument that you have not placed into evidence.

  379. ST and I will be having it out here later tomorrow, if you want to bookmark it and pop some corn.

    Why do it elsewhere? We’re all going to be dropping in there, too. It’s just possible that you’re going to get exactly the kind of responses there that you’d get here, so the change of venue is mysterious. I’m sure you have your reasons, but from here this is a real head-scratcher.

  380. This one mystery too many person appears to be either taking something he/she oughtn’t, or has failed to take something he/she ought to.

  381. We disagree, Ric, but not for the reasons you think we do. You suppose I don’t understand “economics” by insisting I don’t understand your rudimentary supply and demand model within its expanding growth curve. Of course I do.

    But a fractional reserve system pinned to a constantly increasing fiat money supply unfixed to actual production and trade, a roughly perpetually expanding debt account such as the federal government holds also untied to production and its trade, a large-scale exporting of debt and a former means of production, and a growing mountain of artificial, legislated influencers designed to actually thwart free trade simply heads toward vertical at some point, even as it’s inherent mechanism must. The natural inability to repay — all the stuff crashing around us these days — means these borrowed, artificial balances likewise have nothing to do with your model’s expanding legitimate trade if all you do is use “economics” as you have, to point to everything settling into equilibrium because that’s what “economics” do.

    But it’s not settling into equilibrium, Ric, and in fact the essential nature of this set of artificial instabilities is that they cannot.

    The system cannot, Ric, because it’s now both circular and because being so we owe our economic lives to the very mechanism of it’s expansion, artificial as it is, being unable to exist if it stops expanding — a bit of an issue in an increasingly finite system.

    You begin with an understandable sense that markets balance everything, which if we were balancing units of stable value in a stable matrix of production under hands-off legislation, would be true. But our system isn’t based on units of value, it’s based on units of traded debt that are set upon an ever expanding scale of manipulations of free trade that all eventually feeds upon itself. Major indicators suggest it’s doing that today.

    That is, it’s a type of economics to be sure, but you aren’t “explaining” economics any more than you’d “explain” philosophy. Explaining how this economic system builds today’s standard of living on tomorrow’s unpaid bills with money enumerated in constantly inflating units of unpaid debt called dollars is called explaining the debt created by debauching one’s own currency for the profit of the guys at the top. And calling it growth.

    Today’s economy tends to say that our system under it’s current style of central management cannot be restored to equilibrium and that it instead requires an ever expanding set of variables within an eventually finite system if it is to prevent itself imploding. We’re manipulating this thing ten times a day, propping it up peripherally and risking central failure, which is why I suggest to cynn that after some early purging stage, you can’t let it flop, just as we’re now told that should Freddie and Fannie flop (those pieces of bankrupt, democrat-style crap) that we’ll crash the entire global fractional reserve system.

    It’s not relatively free, self-sustaining, wealth-building trade anymore, Ric. Because its a clearly defective system, how that constitutes “economics” escapes me. More importantly, as does anyone thinking it’s a sound long term choice of a style of economic systems.

  382. Besides, Ric, I just saw Obama insist that his bread and circuses will lower taxes. That damnable McCain and his higher taxes. Tell me this isn’t circular; tell me it’s not entirely beholden to our central manipulators.

    “The system of banking is a blot left in all our Constitutions, which, if not covered, will end in their destruction. I sincerely believe that banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”

    “The end of democracy, and the defeat of the American revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of the lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”

    -Jefferson

    As I asked previously, how is it that the Fed takes new powers after it causes such distress and we call it sound management?

  383. JHoward — you said “equilibrium” a couple of times. That’s not the goal of a free market, regardless of how you feel about the monetary system. Money is just an agreed-upon medium of exchange. So long as we’re all in agreement to use it, no problem.

    And it’s not a finite system. You’re falling into the zero-sum game of the left.

  384. And I’m not saying I’m thrilled with an over-spending, over-taxing Congress. I just don’t see that as a flaw with our economic system so much as with what we ask from — and how we discuss — our government.

  385. JHoward, help me out here. Had Jefferson won out over Hamilton in these arguments about banking, would the US still have grown to be the astounding economic powerhouse it has become?

  386. You’re right, Rob, in terms or participants and production, it’s not been a finite system, but moreover, do you think it can expand indefinitely? While being manipulated as it is? Those questions do not point to the left’s zero sum bitching, but they are essential to what system is chosen, or perhaps better said, how this one is managed.

    As to “equilibrium”, I use the term to contrast runaway, the latter being more accurate a description of where we find ourselves, wouldn’t you agree? This game can’t be to balanced when the Fed comes along and simply absorbs the task of running it, the justification being that those responding to the Fed’s irresponsibility need to be regulated for having done so.

  387. Had Jefferson won out over Hamilton in these arguments about banking, would the US still have grown to be the astounding economic powerhouse it has become?</blockquote?

    Perhaps not — above I said the guys at the top of such a system as ours take the profits it naturally returns them just for controlling it. But what about today, with a couple trillion in global losses and 2008 showing very high bank failures? Yeah, naturally it only works as long as it can, cantilevering wealth out over loss, possibly why Greenspan was called The Maestro.

    But how much of that astounding per-capita wealth was produced before runaway currencies? And using Ric’s model, how much richer would we be if we didn’t have to pay for this trainwreck? The US went from that impressive wealth to world’s largest debtor nation in about half a century, all of it on the tail end of the today’s Fed-mismanaged fiat system. Sure, we live better than they did in 1950. But how much better off and how much freer would we be today than we currently are if we hadn’t invested in the system we’re currently using?

    So…had Jefferson indeed won out over Hamilton in these arguments about banking, would the US and the globe be facing what we’re all facing today? Today, that’s the more valid question, no? I don’t pretend to know the answers to either, but my opinion is Jefferson was far closer to right. And I suspect he spoke with freedom central in his mind.

    Which choice would you make?

  388. The rest of the Jefferson quote:

    “If the people ever allow the banks to issue their currency, the banks and corporations which will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property, until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”

    “Paper is poverty… It is not money, but the ghost of money.”

    “There is an artificial aristocracy, founded on birth and privelege, without virtue or talents… The artificial aristocracy is a mischievous ingredient in government, and provisions should be made to prevent its ascendency.”

    “The bank of the United States is one of the most deadly hostilities existing against the principles and form of our Constitution. I deem no government safe which is under the vassalage of any self-constituted authorities, or any other authority than that of the nation, or its regular functionaries. What an obstruction could not this bank of the United States, with all its branch banks, be in a time of war? It might dictate to us the peace we should accept, or it might withdraw its aid. Ought we then to give further growth to an institution so powerful, so hostile?”

    While his specific concerns may have been somewhat tangential to ours, the man was prescient, and in my opinion at least, that for a classic liberal possessing great fiscal and monetary conservatism and a powerful sense of the need to be free. The Fed is private, largely autonomous, and as such fits into Jefferson’s perspective. Congress has no apparent idea or concern what’s going on.

  389. JHoward and Rob, very much enjoying the back and forth.

    JHoward, could you make the analogy that the U.S. is like a person who had been living quite a nice lifestyle for years, but only by maxing out credit cards? They certainly don’t have the wealth that they appear to have, and it will inevitably come crashing down on them at some point?

  390. Dude, I’m a student of this stuff, an ignorant, groping in the dark boob about economics, trying his best to get a handle on the (little bit of the) world I can see before me. I’m not someone with firm views about it one way or the other. When I ask for help, I mean help. That is, I’m not being facetious.

    Thus far, it seems to me, to the extent we can understand our economic world, what we understand is that our understanding is utterly retrospective, recognizing patterns of organic growth or “emerging order” only after the fact, if you will. I know, for instance, the Federal Reserve acted in thus and such a way, and told us why they were acting as they did when they did, but that economic things turned out differently than they could predict they would turn out. I don’t see that Greenspan and his Fed set out to cause the bubble(s) that have followed on after a too long “easy money” policy, but rather, they failed (as anyone would have at the time) to get all the balances just right, just exquisitely so, to prevent them. No-one, I think, can possibly have enough information to “manage” anything as vast as the economic world we live in. We can only adjust to circumstances as we find them and keep moving forward, doing the best we know how (inadequate as that may be) with the imperfect information we possess without any expectation of success, but to the contrary, further failures of our understanding to which we will once again have to adjust and act upon again.

  391. Hm. That didn’t work? Okay. Again:

    Back on topic for a second…

    I urge all Obama-interested types to reassemble this URL here –

    globallabor.blogspot.com/
    2008/04/
    who-sent-obama.html

    – and read what’s there (and the other thing linked from it).

    Ignore the intra-commie factionalism and boomer-nostalgia Nixon-hate-blurts; they’re not important (to you guys). Dude knows approximately what’s up.

  392. He certainly does, psycho. Linked him above at 376.

  393. Dy-fucking-namical, is what I meant to say, in re economics. And now, it is so.

    I tries, but fails, to keep up.

  394. JHoward, could you make the analogy that the U.S. is like a person who had been living quite a nice lifestyle for years, but only by maxing out credit cards? They certainly don’t have the wealth that they appear to have, and it will inevitably come crashing down on them at some point?

    Yeah, I think that’s more plausible than if we hoo-rah enough, we’ll prove all “growth” to be tied directly to who’s occupying the White House, P.J., and thereby, all recessions as well. At the least, that diversionary partisanship one finds particularly dishonest to the principle of conservatism, that and the fact the current system inherently contains a certain element of fraud against the taxpayer and has from its inception.

  395. Sdferr, perhaps the real discussion is to whether an artificial system — by “artificial” I mean by fiat, as in the case of a declared, manipulated currency and equally manipulated set of markets — is a good thing when it bootstraps itself to a position potentially higher than it would have had it relied only on trade in bona fide units of value and their notes. It’s somewhat of a semantic argument by those measures, and I’d propose that it’s also therefore a measure of only a slice of our current experiment in economic systems.

    I suspect the final analysis will show that we perhaps accelerated our prosperity, the net costs of doing so are enormous — we’re credit card nation, especially our government. Given that we don’t believe in free lunches, and given that costs increase in some proportion to the amount of money created from nothing in this our a fractional reserve system, I’m surprised we’re not more skeptical, although we appear increasingly skeptical.

    A good example of phantom growth is the mortgage crisis: By a housing bubble occurring — whether intentionally or not is momentarily besides the point — we inflate housing prices, thereby telling ourselves we’ve increased wealth through no effort on our own. In other words, by dropping dollars out of the sky, our masters naturally have an impact on the economy that uses them, ours. But when all costs and leverages come home to roost, the market collapses, and I’d promote the idea that the net effect of the entire experiment is negative.

    While a certain amount of unnatural liquidity may be beneficial in the short term, do we think that an entire system built on it is thereby creating authentic growth, or do we think it’s merely artificially stimulating itself, and that such injections have their inevitable withdrawl symptoms?

    Another example is the economic stimulus check: Government sends us free cash, places those trillions into our debt, incurs interest it (and we) apparently cannot pay, burdens the next generations, and we think it’s a net positive return when all’s said and done? Or has the interest on this new debt made the entire equation just a bit more red ink?

    Me, I can’t see how government, which is a net cost on things, can ever create out of thin air a net gain to the private sector’s economy. Since the current financial system is built on a policy of nothing but such artificialities, I’m unclear how it, in the end, returns a net positive effect in and of itself — that the US economy can prosper and even grow is no testament to its economic system, it’s a testament to Ric’s production and trade. Sixty trillion in unpaid federal debt and obligations — especially when we cannot repay even a potion of it without risking a crash — and a greatly burdened and displaced and uncompetitive production sector tend to add to the doubt and pessimism.

  396. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”…. Saul Alinsky

    Is this the set of guidelines guiding the attack on Stanley Kurtz?

  397. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”…. Saul Alinsky
    Is this the set of guidelines guiding the attack on Stanley Kurtz?

    Seemed to work well with Ken Starr and Monica Lewinsky. Why stop now?

  398. Sorry I forget President Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove as well.

  399. “…a declared, manipulated currency…”

    Can we flesh this out, as much else will depend on our mutual understanding of the meaning (contents) of these terms and their sequelae (manipulated markets, bona fide units of value, unnatural liquidity, etc)?

    Since, while for all I know the conclusions you end up with may be entirely correct (and perfectly acceptable to me once I fully understand them) my ignorance requires that I bite off but a little at a time and chew thoroughly before moving on to the next morsel, if I’m to have any hope of digesting the great meal you’ve laid out before us. My apologies, JHoward, but I’m a just a slow eater that way.

    So to return to the question, who declares? And who manipulates? Or are these not separate acts, but simultaneous events accomplished by one and the same person or group? How does this work, in other words?

  400. Re: #393

    The “Who sent you?” seems to be a feature of organizations structured to hide their true dealings from the lower levels of the organization and the general public. Intelligence, Secret Societies, Criminal Gangs etc.

    You have to be vetted by the level above you before being allowed into it’s dealings and secrets. “Who sent you?” means “What level are you?”, “What do you know?”, “What can I say in front of you?”. If “Nobody sent you” then you are an unknown and a danger to the secrets of the organization.

  401. The dollar is simply created and inserted into the system, Sdferr. It’s “declared” as it’s a piece of debt owed the Fed, not of backing value. It may be backed by trust — the Fed’s basis is to perpetuate high trust, which you can describe as intentionally manipulating the dollar’s apparent worth — but it is actually lent into existence, where it’s relent and it and all subsequent instances incur debt.

    So as I understand it, the Fed essentially declares it into existence as part of the money supply. It’s instantaneous value is a designed manipulation of it contrasted to other standards of value. As evidence, today the entire banking system is doing one heck of a balancing act, just trying to keep heads above water. The subject of just how much added manipulation occurs would include all the various ways and means of the entire banking system coupled to a vastly irresponsible and clueless DC.

  402. So, am I correct to believe that any instantaneous value of a dollar is determined in a market of exchange, Dollars for Yen, Euros, Sw. Franc, or Pound, etc.? This willingness to exchange is based on the “trust” you cite, that the US Government will pay back its debt. (Which I take it, means the Government must never fail to make good, else any trust will be lost and the buyers flee.)

    The Fed may see ahead (predict, expect, guess at?) a trend up or down relative to other currencies on account of their inflationary or deflationary acts of issuance or withdrawal of dollars into or out of the market, all the while much (indeterminable) stuff of value (products, services) is being created and destroyed in the economy at large. (Their predictions may be either right or wrong though, correct, though usually right I assume?) In the end however, the Fed only promises to redeem any one dollar with another dollar backed by the F.F.&C. of the US Government. This is the manipulation.

    The deep concern, therefore, is with the size of the accumulated debt of the US government (ostensibly in the name of the people [& which the Fed does not control]) vs the wealth creation of the nation as a whole (as a resource from which the Gov. may tax to obtain the dollars to repay debt owed)? Should the debt grow to exceed the Gov’s ability to tax and repay, the point of failure will have been reached and the whole R.Goldbergian contraption will fall to the ground.

    Let me know if I’m getting this wrong (or right for that matter), since when it comes to clueless, DC’s got nothing on me.

  403. A few points I would mention to add to JHowards argument.

    Even with the FED taking advantage of the financial climate to expand it’s authority and influence, they still have not addressed the primary factors that created this artificial bubble, specifically they are doing almost nothing to correct the near monopoly that the Credit Rating Companies enjoy. This is exhibit A in JHowards argument.

    Had Moodys and S&P correctly rated these NINA Loan bundles as high risk investments- instead of the AAA rating they gave them- the investment markets demand for these investment vehicles would have been exactly like it is now that they are listed as junk- Nil.

    You can’t get a NINA loan today if you wanted to and it’s not because it’s illegal, it’s because it’s a bad investment that brokerages and fund investors have no interest in buying from lending institutions.

    If the Fed was interested in preventing these near catastrophic (so we are told) failures, the very first place they would look at would have been the dark, murky world of Credit Rating Agencies that told the world that these loans and there derivatives were investments as good as Federal Treasury Notes- with killer interest!

    While the Fed has increased it’s influence and control in the banking industry, it has simultaneously done nothing to prevent these large scale artificial investment vehicles from being offered in the market, and why would they? It’s a scheme that affords them the opportunity to step in and expand their influence with the publics approval.

    Even today all the same mechanisms remain in place and a future crashing bubble in some market or industry sector is practically guaranteed.

  404. I think that’s correct, Sdferr. In other words, the whole interlinked global shebang is “cantilevered” (the best word I can think of) such that, in effect, we live today what we actually earn tomorrow and in doing so, we pay a substantial percentage to the Makers, who, most of the time, thereby profit, all the while stacking up vast costs in interest and wealth redistribution for having done so. Endgame: We default or we contract. Or can we restore solvency through real growth and responsible policy? Bonus points: Can you pay back principle and its interest when making more of the former is how you pay the latter? Makes my head hurt…

    What concerns me is that the whole shebang also resembles positive feedback, which is to say systemic instability. For example, by way of having had too much money, in a correcting market there’s insufficient money for mortgages while the bubble’s enormous parasitic costs of bail-out — now held in what was cheap money — remain unpaid in the form of new national debt and it’s massive interest. Maybe this is why some say the Fed’s trying to inflate us out of this.

    There’s certainly enough panic out there to finally question the status quo.

  405. I chance to rush ahead for a moment (I suspect I ought not to) to ask if there isn’t another positive feedback we are ignoring (again, if only for the moment) in this system we are attempting to describe.

    Namely — the positive feedback of wealth creation which benefits from some leverage of principle?

    Won’t we have to tie ourselves and our arguments to actual measures of these relative aspects of the economy — GNP, total debt, ratios of these same to one another and other measures of wealth — in order to understand the equilibrium or disequilibrium that might cause us to act either this way or that?

    Numbers in other words?

  406. Fallingwater is still one of the finest things I’ve ever seen, so cantilevers can’t be all bad.

  407. Positive feedback is a negative: It’s a parasitic system where the output swamps the input, sending the system into instability and eventual destruction. Negative feedback systems use a portion of the output to rebalance the system, creating stability.

    Wealth creation is negative feedback, keeping the system whole and functional. Irresponsible money creation risks (or ensures?) positive feedback. Or so it seems at times.

  408. So in this reading positive feedback makes the whole shrink.
    Negative feedback makes the whole grow.

    Are these terms of art in this context (of econ, I mean)? Inherited by us, iow?

  409. “I don’t think we “don’t know” about Obama.”

    Lisa? I really DO.NOT.KNOW. about Obama other that a 40 somethin black/white,Christain/Muslim wrote 2 friggin’ autobiographies before he was a fucking senator. To me? that spells MEGOLOMANIA…Google it sugartits.

  410. “Yeah sure, Wright is the same as David Duke! Blacks who lived through segregation have just as little right to be pissed about the state of race relations as some white racist dude. It is totally the same thing. So if you are even NEAR some old minority who is still bitter about some past oppression, you have the absolute right to turn to them and call them a nigger, spic, chink or whatever is race appropriate. I mean, they are exactly the same as David Duke….hell make it Adolf Hitler. The motherfuckers.

    And blacks can NEVER criticize the USA for its racist past (and sometimes present). OMG!!! They might as well be reading Mein Kempf out loud, the goddamned niggers.”

    Lisa, I THOUGHT you were beyond that. Imagine my surprise when you pull the “Moral Authority because I’m that race and don’t pay any attention to my actual THOUGHTS card”

    I guess that if you’re born black? you just have to hang with the homies…And that loses any respect I had for you sugartits.

  411. You can call Wright on his racism – he is a racist, it is understandable that he might harbor bitterness, but not excusable. No one has given him a pass either. He has been universally condemned. However, he is not the same person as David Duke.

    BTW, if you are that much of an absolutist, why arent you calling for the resignation of everyone who ever worked with Strom Thurmond? He was an unrepentant racist and everyone still fawned over him like he was Mr. Rogers. Apparently, he did a great job and people loved him. He just had creative views about the Neegruhs.”

    This was from our Lisa?

    Robert Byrd. ’nuff said.

  412. Pingback: dustbury.com » Quote of the week

Leave a Reply