Forwarded by Karl:
From: “Simon Owens”
Date: August 2, 2008 8:28:09 AM MDT
To: “Jeff Goldstein”
Subject: Karl, Politico isn’t the only ones engaging in sock puppetryHey Karl,
I remember reading a post you wrote back in June about Politico employees going into comment sections and engaging in sock puppetry. I don’t know if you’ve heard about this yet, but a memo just leaked from CNN that openly encourages its employees to engage in their own form of sock puppetry — basically saying that if they want to comment in chat rooms or comments sections of blogs they can’t identify themselves. I published the memo over here.
I thought you would find this interesting.
take care,
Simon
Comment by Joan of Argghh! on 8/4 @ 10:44 am #
Meh. A troll by any other name will stink up the joint, regardless. But I do think that it will kill their incentive to try and sway thoughts. The minute something they post is challenged, they will be impotent to cite their own magnificence as a rebuttal. Like Barack Obama.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 10:52 am #
Concealment of bias is a far worse policy to promote journalistic integrity, than open acknowlegment of opinion of individuals reporting the news (or answering the telephone and sweeping the floors) at CNN.
Anyone who goes along with this is going along with dishonesty.
Comment by TheGeezer on 8/4 @ 10:59 am #
Man, CNN must be worse off than I thought.
Hey, that thought lifted my day!
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 11:02 am #
BTW, I miss Karl.
Comment by Dan Collins on 8/4 @ 11:13 am #
I think Darleen already linked “Baby, Come Back”, Sarah.
Course, now it would be “Baby Got Back.”
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 8/4 @ 11:34 am #
Best cover of Baby Got Back, ever.
Comment by JD on 8/4 @ 11:36 am #
Didn’t the LA Times have a guy doing this as well ?
Comment by Mr. Pink on 8/4 @ 11:40 am #
Where is Karl anyway?
Comment by Dread Cthulhu on 8/4 @ 11:40 am #
JD: “Didn’t the LA Times have a guy doing this as well ?”
I do seem to recall they sqeulched any discussion of John Edward’srecent unpleasentness…
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 11:51 am #
And now you’ve disappeared somewhere
Like outer space
You’ve found some better place
And I miss you
(Like the deserts miss the rain)
And I miss you
Oh
(Like the deserts miss the rain)
Comment by Pablo on 8/4 @ 11:51 am #
Boy, I can’t wait to hear what thor thinls about this.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 11:52 am #
That’s from the “Everything butt the Karl” top 100.
Comment by dicentra on 8/4 @ 11:53 am #
Is it sockpuppetry, really? The Gleens were using multiple identities as a way of defending [their] own postings, but these people are simply prohibited from revealing their superhero identities, as Joan said.
Sounds like CNN doesn’t want to be liable for what their minions say in comment threads. I don’t blame them.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 11:58 am #
I took it as a flat prohibition against expression of any idea anywhere, socked or de-socked.
Comment by Aldo on 8/4 @ 12:01 pm #
There was a story a while back about NYT employees vandalizing the Wikipedia entries for prominent Republicans.
BTW, I miss Karl.
Why? What happened to him?
Comment by The Gleens on 8/4 @ 12:10 pm #
These are not the sock puppets that I used to know.
no, no, lower … lower, Ricardo … yeeeeees. OH SHIT!
[.....]
Comment by afall on 8/4 @ 12:36 pm #
“basically saying that if they want to comment in chat rooms or comments sections of blogs they can’t identify themselves. ”
‘basically’ it says “therefore you should not comment on the issues CNN covers.”
and
“UNLESS GIVEN PERMISSION BY CNN MANAGEMENT, CNN EMPLOYEES ARE TO AVOID TAKING PUBLIC POSITIONS ON THE ISSUES AND PEOPLE AND ORGANIZATIONS ON WHICH WE REPORT.”
and
“In addition, you should not operate under an alias on your website or blog in order to participate in biased public behavior. Despite your use of an alias to express a view that may present a conflict of interest, it is still your opinion. Your real identity and occupation could be revealed by someone else at any point.”
So it looks like the idea of “sockpuppetry as official policy” is total bunk.
Comment by Christopher Taylor on 8/4 @ 1:00 pm #
That doesn’t really say you should post as sock puppets. It says “don’t post stuff that hurts CNN, even anonymously.” pretty solid policy.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 8/4 @ 1:05 pm #
Wow. You guys don’t even try anymore.
Comment by Sdferr on 8/4 @ 1:14 pm #
Yeah. It’s a full-on waste of your time, Mr. Brown.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 8/4 @ 1:19 pm #
“Yeah. It’s a full-on waste of your time, Mr. Brown.”
Keeps me off the streets, at least.
Comment by Pablo on 8/4 @ 1:25 pm #
I got that too, Sarah.
Comment by alppuccino on 8/4 @ 1:39 pm #
That doesn’t really say you should post as sock puppets. It says “don’t post stuff that hurts CNN, even anonymously.†pretty solid policy.
Probably so. Man! Imagine if CNN were a for-profit concern, and they were trying to control the outflow of their proprietary information for the purpose of maximizing profitability. What a freaking scandal that would be. Corporate manipulation and all that.
I wonder what CNN’s profit margin would be if they were not a non-profit organization. You know, hypothetically.
Comment by Semanticleo on 8/4 @ 2:03 pm #
“a memo just leaked from CNN that openly encourages its employees to engage in their own form of sock puppetry”
“….. dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!”
Interesting, is it?
I guess if that’s all ya got, it’s all ya got.
Comment by JD on 8/4 @ 2:12 pm #
Am I the only one that it would take shotgunning a few MoDo cocktails to understand Semenleo?
Comment by Joan of Argghh! on 8/4 @ 2:27 pm #
SarahW is exactly right on the serious side of this. Why should newspapers care? It answers itself: Because they can’t edit free opinions to match their narrative. And The Narrative must never be questioned.
Comment by serr8d on 8/4 @ 3:06 pm #
CNN doesn’t want anyone on the great unwashed outside pointing at one of their own (who might express strong feelings or attitudes) and saying, ‘Look at this guy/gay! They’ve a bias for Leftists/Democrats/Obama/Socialism! So goes CNN!’
As if we hadn’t already noticed that sort of bias.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 3:40 pm #
As if concealment of views, opinions, bias or perspective made these things go away. I can’t see how throwing a rug over the dust makes the room cleaner.
Comment by Semanticleo on 8/4 @ 4:33 pm #
Playing games again, eh Collins? Maguire fiddles with TypePad in the same Passive Aggressive style.
Grow a pair….
Comment by dicentra on 8/4 @ 4:41 pm #
I can’t see how throwing a rug over the dust makes the room cleaner.
You don’t stir up the dust clouds so much, and if there’s anything sharp in the dust, the rug protects your bare feat. Trust me on this.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 5:06 pm #
That dirt is just hiding there like a spider. Which there probably are some of those.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 5:06 pm #
Little mites and big jumpy ones.
Comment by Jeff G. on 8/4 @ 5:50 pm #
Karl won’t post here anymore because I told him I didn’t want to ban thor. And I didn’t want to ban thor because thor is a big supporter of another guest blogger here. I asked Karl to stick it out through the elections. Karl suggested that I’d “picked thor” over him.
— Which, in turn, made me feel like I was in the middle of a geek soap opera, so I said fuck it, got drunk, and ordered up some porn.
Before I did that, however, I DID ask thor not to call Karl a racist any longer. But that turned out not to be enough, I guess, as Karl hasn’t been back. So the world spins on, a lonelier place than it was last week.
I’m sure Karl will land on his feet — most likely at one of the sites that I compete with for traffic, who would be happy (and lucky) to have him. For my part, I just have to remind myself that this is A FUCKING BLOG.
And all my angst disappears. SNAP! Just like that!
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 5:54 pm #
Blurg. Divorce is hard on the kids.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 6:00 pm #
Maybe you could lure him back with some panty hose and a Barry White CD.
It’s worked before.
I was digging through drawers at Humble Hall (my Mom’s house I bought to fix up) and ran across a pantyhose package wedged in a crevice behind one of said drawers ca. 1970-72. It featured a guy in a hardhat looking wistfully up Karen Carpenters sister’s mustard-yellow doubleknit perma press mini-skirt, which had flipped up in the breeze. The trollop. DADDY COME BACK!
Comment by dicentra on 8/4 @ 6:19 pm #
That dirt is just hiding there like a spider. Which there probably are some of those.
Hiding is as good as being gone, as far as I’m concerned. This is the kind of housekeeper I am. Good thing the cats can’t complain in actual English.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 6:24 pm #
Schroedingers rug. If I were a cat, maybe that would be some pressure off.
Comment by Carin on 8/4 @ 6:39 pm #
Blurg. Divorce is hard on the kids.
Man, that’s exactly how I feel! And, I went through a divorce with my parents, and they made me go to friend of the court (HI JHoward!) and I had to tell them who I preferred … it was painful, and no one was happy.
And Happyfeet and I are knowing less and less as the days go by. Thor isn’t taking up any sort of slack. The only thing I learned from him today is that the Russians like cardboard, and if you bang a Russian chick, you will learn more about their politics.
Comment by Sdferr on 8/4 @ 6:51 pm #
Take a look at this post by bookworm I ran into at neo-neocon. It’s like the upsidedown opposite of sock-puppetry or hiding in plain sight.
Comment by happyfeet on 8/4 @ 7:06 pm #
I tried going to realclearpolitics, but it’s just sort of overwhelming.
Comment by Sdferr on 8/4 @ 7:12 pm #
The Boob Herbert thingy this morning is pretty funny though, don’t you think?
Comment by Sdferr on 8/4 @ 7:14 pm #
Boob
Comment by happyfeet on 8/4 @ 7:21 pm #
Oh. I couldn’t decide which one to click first so I bailed, sdferr. Also this is not a blog as in just a. It’s more than that, it’s differentiated, and that’s a lot your fault Mr. Goldstein. Just a blog. As if. You yourself took note of your site’s being stickier than most when you talked to those people at that conference. But also this is where I learn things. But also I believe very firmly, as in undissuadably, that this is not just a blog but it falls more better under the rubric of alternative media. A lot cause you and your bloggers are conscious of narrative. As in the. But also this has several implications, but this is the most important: clicks here are not clicks there. That makes these clicks special.
Comment by Pablo on 8/4 @ 8:35 pm #
Well, yeah. Could be. Though the latter reminds that there just isn’t a whole lot of upside to the former. While I’d be happy to see Karl fall into some crazy blog money (as I would you), there just isn’t a whole lot of it out there, as you well know. On the bright side, it’s not as if we’re bereft of incisive analysis. I see big things in that boy’s future.
Comment by Pablo on 8/4 @ 8:38 pm #
Gah! Stupid TinyURL.
Link
Comment by Jeff G. on 8/4 @ 9:31 pm #
Have Dan Collins ban him, then. Laying it at my doorstep? Sorry. I was trying to step away for a while, remember?
Comment by Dan Collins on 8/4 @ 9:40 pm #
That’s too ugly, I agree, Pablo. thor, I love you, but that’s a yellow card right there.
I’ve asked people here to be as civil towards you and any other dissenting commenters as they can be. I expect that you be so, as well.
Comment by Dan Collins on 8/4 @ 9:42 pm #
Damn thing reads like the introduction to Lo spaccio della bestia trionfante.
Comment by happyfeet on 8/4 @ 9:43 pm #
Me I wasn’t anywhere near your doorstep. I am not the banning sort really at all. Yay banning! Nope. Also I like immigrants and music from Japan but not weird fruit from Guatemala.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 8/4 @ 9:44 pm #
I love thor, too. But only because he’s predictable.
We conservatives just lurvs teh predictability, yanno.
Comment by happyfeet on 8/4 @ 9:48 pm #
Oh. I like immigrants from all over. Not just Japan. And the thing about the fruit, maybe it’s just when it’s frozen.
Comment by Pablo on 8/4 @ 9:48 pm #
Your house, your call, Jeff, and I can see your reasoning. My only point is that the crazy blog money is probably not forthcoming and would be awfully optimistic to aspire to, so I don’t think it’s a motivating factor here.
Are you saying that Dan has permission to ban people? Dan, have I mentioned what a fabulous post this is? If I have, it bears saying again.
Comment by Jeff G on 8/4 @ 10:04 pm #
Thor is a fan of Dan’s. Dan posts here. Banning thor at Karl’s request would be, to my mind, a slap at Dan.
Which is all very geek soap opera-y, and I’m about as cool as a man can be who has the last name “Goldstein.”
So, like I said, upon consideration, I opted for drink and porn.
Comment by happyfeet on 8/4 @ 10:20 pm #
But thor, he is crafty. What if he cultivated his fandom of Dan to inoculate himself as he plotted his crewell machinations against our noble Karl? Whoa. Anyone else get chills?
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 10:41 pm #
Dan has lots of fans; some good ones, too. Fans coming out his ears. All over the place.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 10:43 pm #
Like, Look out! Danfanolanche!
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 10:44 pm #
He has to rent storage units.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 10:44 pm #
Well, I’m a fan.
Comment by Jeff G on 8/4 @ 10:53 pm #
Whatever.
Sort it out.
Sorry Karl left. But then, I’m sorry for lots of things. In fact, it occurred to me recently that I spend too much time in my head being sorry for things. Which is why I opt for drink and porn.
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 10:54 pm #
Banning might be extreme but pantyhose and Barry white? Maybe that jukebox over the head thing playing “your eyes”?
Comment by SarahW on 8/4 @ 11:00 pm #
In fact, it occurred to me recently that I spend too much time in my head being sorry for things.
I’m trying to think what I could say that isn’t obnoxiously interferey that would agree with that in just the right degree. Vacation from worry is what I would toss in your tipjar. Limoncello. Hardhats and miniskirts.
Comment by happyfeet on 8/4 @ 11:03 pm #
Me too.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 8/5 @ 6:57 am #
Wow. A “yellow card”. That’s getting tough.
A few days ago, thor admitted he never went after Karl for what Karl was saying, but rather what thor believes motivates Karl. On a site with a major theme of intentionalism and how its abandonment leads to intellectual thuggery, that should have been the last straw. Or, at least, a teaching moment — “address the words, ask for clarification if you don’t understand, but don’t impute motivations based on your own whims”. Instead, thor was allowed to carry on, driving Karl away.
I understand your aversion to the childish games and the soap opera aspects, but I just don’t see the reason to be gracious to the trolls, and attacking someone for reasons that you admit come from your own imagination seems to be quite trollish.
Comment by Jeff G. on 8/5 @ 8:23 am #
And as you admit, Rob, they are teachable moments.
As I said before, the only person here who thought Karl racist was thor. And he was ridiculed and excoriated for it. You yourself just turned that into an object lesson in intentionalism.
Those lessons aren’t available to us oftentimes without obnoxious trollery. But leaving that aspect aside, thor does often make substantive arguments. That he has recently become more inclined to couch those arguments in straight out ad homs is annoying, and is one of the reasons I considered asking him to take a hike.
But I think of it this way: if Karl decides to bolt because thor takes shots and him, the terrorists have already won.
Hell, I’ve bolted a few times myself after getting burned out dealing with such stuff, so I’m not saying I blame Karl. At the same time, though, having been through it myself — constant attacks, years at a time, by prominent bloggers and host of angry “dissenters” in the comments here — I still don’t think banning is, in every case, the best answer.
I have banned a few people, it’s true. But generally they have offered nothing at all of substance, or else have become so repetitive as to be useless, in my estimation, as fuel for the site’s power.
Thor — and nishi, too, it seems to me — are both quite intelligent, and they have both been around here long enough that they’ve earned forbearance. At least from me.
I asked Karl to stick it out until after the elections. He decided to go in another direction. I thank him for his fantastic work here, and wish him all the best. And, likely were he around, he’d thank me for the opportunity to increase his profile so much by being given free reign to publish whatever he liked on a site w/ a large and devoted readership that I spent years building and cultivating.
Personally, I think Karl should have hashed this out with Dan and thor, via email. But ymmv.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 8/5 @ 8:39 am #
I musta missed those in the ass-hattery.
But, it’s your show. Thanks for putting it on, I know how much work it can be.
Comment by happyfeet on 8/5 @ 8:42 am #
thor and nishi and this Barrett too. This might be a golden age of trollness really, though I think they all transcend trollness. But I still miss Karl. I think he made the most of the opportunity, but mostly I think he wanted to hold the fort, and he did. He was a lot devoted I think. That was a lot of work what he did.
Comment by SarahW on 8/5 @ 8:46 am #
“And, likely were he around, he’d thank me for the opportunity to increase his profile so much by being given free reign to publish whatever he liked on a site w/ a large and devoted readership that I spent years building and cultivating.”
That may be true but perhaps not diplomatically expressed.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 8/5 @ 9:04 am #
I don’t think any of them are trolls (nishi, Thor and certainly not Barrett). The first two are one trick ponies, to be sure, but it is quite obvious they are intelligent. They’re just children, emotionally. I’m not sure, how one can argue otherwise.
Nishi, believe it or not has gotten me to rethink a position or two, that I have had. I thought that was cool. But her faults are certainly exposed every time she comments. Thor? He’s fun. He’s an internet tough guy with a brain, but he emotes too much. That gets old.
One thing that I surely hope doesn’t get lost in the missing Karl saga, is that the vast, vast majority of people in here miss Jeff G. This is his baby and it is far more than just a blog. Happyfeet is correct in saying it is alternative media, but even that sells it short. It’s a teachable moment every fucking time Jeff posts. Jeff, you’re a genius. Deal with that. I understand, as do all of your fans, that you got stuff going on that takes priority. We’re all humans an dunderstand that you have to do what you have to do, but don’t let this petty, as you say geeky soap opera shit derail the Protein Wisdom train. It just can’t.
As for the original post? I kind of agree with afall. It’s just policy. I don’t think it’s greenwaldian sockpuppetry of any sort.
Comment by SarahW on 8/5 @ 9:11 am #
Back to the post subject – it’s designed to make CNN bias opaque to scrutiny, to conceal it, not remove it.
It’s a really intrusive and bad policy, and I wouldn’t sweep their floors for a million dollars and hour, and put up with it.
Comment by Jeff G. on 8/5 @ 10:55 am #
Whereas Karl sending me an email telling me that unless thor goes, he can spend his time working on other things — that he’s gaining his blog celebrity as a favor to me — is the very height of diplomacy.
Soap. Opera.
Don’t. Care. Anymore.
Just. Remembered. Why. I. Need. To. Remove. This. Site. As. My. Homepage.
Comment by happyfeet on 8/5 @ 11:56 am #
See no one wants to comment now cause of the emphatic apathy. Me I still care. Mostly I think everything is going to be just fine. Unless something really bad happens. Hey. There are new posts up what I haven’t read yet.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 8/5 @ 11:57 am #
“Whereas Karl sending me an email telling me that unless thor goes, he can spend his time working on other things  that he’s gaining his blog celebrity as a favor to me  is the very height of diplomacy.”
I don’t know Karl from Adam and he could be the nicest guy in the world but I’d tell him don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Karl’s got his own gig, correct? Nobody comes back HERE again and again for Karl.
Comment by Pablo on 8/5 @ 12:10 pm #
Well, there was thor, for one.
Comment by Rick Ballard on 8/5 @ 12:16 pm #
“Just. Remembered. Why. I. Need. To. Remove. This. Site. As. My. Homepage.”
What drama.
Comment by Jeff G. on 8/5 @ 12:16 pm #
And me, for two.
I wanted Karl to stay. I like the guy, and he has this informational blogging thing down better than anyone else out there. But if I can put up with a jillion cockslapping comments and posts, he can put up with thor — who only posts about him here, and who is ridiculed when he does so.
I banned people like dataless dave and Timmy because I found out they were at other sites tearing into me, while pretending to act mostly civil here. Were thor found bashing Karl as a racist on sites where the posts are not evident to serve as exoneration, I most certainly would have banned him.
Comment by Jeff G. on 8/5 @ 12:17 pm #
Yes, “what drama,” Rick. And to think, it’s all yours for free! Ain’t America grand?
Everyone here is free to take a hike. But I’d be careful about shitting where you eat. This isn’t a government run soup kitchen, after all.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 8/5 @ 12:19 pm #
As I said, nobody. Ah, that was low. Like Jeff said, Thor has the potential to make a point, it’s just that his irritating emoting gets in the way too often. It’s embarrasing. My overall point was that this is Jeff’s joint. I am willing to bet all of Al Gore’s millions that 99.9% of us are here for him and not Karl or Dan or Darleen or whomever else who do a fine job at guest blogging. I could be wrong, though and out of line speaking for others. If I am, I apologize.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 8/5 @ 12:23 pm #
I understand that, too, Jeff. I don’t mean to demean Karl’s blogging at all and I apologize, again, if it seems that I am bagging on Karl. He does good work, no doubt. I’m being selfish and am just saying that it sucks that that geeky soap opera shit is weighing on you, thus preventing your readers from reading you.
Comment by happyfeet on 8/5 @ 12:26 pm #
It’s ok. I just for real did get very Karl-dependent as far as following the campaign goes. I don’t watch the tv, and Mr. Reynolds is sort of hit or miss. And realclearpolitics makes you click all the links yourself. And Hot Air is always trying to sell the story. I liked Karl cause he’d do the du jour posts about controversial stuff but he’s do some posts where he’d note stuff but then sort of shrug like whatever so there’s that, which put the story in exactly the right context a lot of times.
Comment by happyfeet on 8/5 @ 12:28 pm #
*he’d* do some posts
Comment by Mr. Pink on 8/5 @ 12:28 pm #
All this over thor whose only contribution seems to be pointing out that he “lived in Russia” and “banged a Russian chick”? Wow pretty lame no wonder you went and looked at porn instead of worrying about it.
Comment by Jeff G. on 8/5 @ 1:25 pm #
All what, Mr. Pink. What’s lame? You need to be more specific.
Comment by BJTexs on 8/5 @ 1:34 pm #
Mr. Pink: Beware the red laser light if it settles on your forehead…
Comment by Pablo on 8/5 @ 2:47 pm #
Why, the drama, of course.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 8/5 @ 6:09 pm #
The “what” I was refering to was you being put in the middle of internet drama, and one of the best contributors to this site leaving. I was mainly speaking out of my disgust that it was over thor. Yet it is none of my business and I probably should not have even typed the first word let alone hit the “Say It!” button.
Comment by Rusty the blog nazi on 8/5 @ 7:36 pm #
No Blog For You!!! Now Get Out!!!
Comment by thor on 8/5 @ 9:04 pm #
What do you mean “a Russian chick?” Half the effable dyevs in Russian can still pick out my weenier out from a police line up (the curse of girth).
Having my one lasting accomplishment diminished like so is unbearable.