They were confined in cramped quarters with inadequate food. The lights were kept on 24/7 and guards would shine flashlights into the prisoners faces at all hours. Guards threatened mental health workers who were assigned to the prisoners not to interfere with the guards’ questioning of the prisoners. After a week, the prisoners were “weak, confused and downright exhausted” according to testimony of the mental health workers.
Gitmo?
No, Texas CPS treatment of women and children as revealed by the testimony of mental health professionals in the papers filed with the appeals court
The ruling comes as several mental health workers, in court papers filed by Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints’ attorneys and obtained by ABC News, offered a portrait of the state’s raid that at times appeared at odds with Child Protective Services’ past descriptions, saying CPS workers were hostile and suspicious.The state raided the compound and took all 463 children into state custody, first placing them in shelters at the local coliseum and then in temporary foster homes scattered across the state.
But a local judge had initially refused to allow Texas Rangers to search the compound, according to a statement from Texas Ranger Leslie Brooks Long. Long then took the same information to a different judge, who approved the search warrant, his statement says.
Linda Werlein, director of a local mental health and mental retardation center who assisted CPS in the days after the raid, said CPS workers treated her staff with suspicion, told her they would be arrested if they interfered with the questioning of the mothers, and that the church mothers would not talk without their attorneys present.
“Each and everything we were told was either inaccurate or untrue,” she said in her statement, adding, “I was struck by what wonderful mothers they were.”
She said CPS workers appeared suspicious of the mothers. At one point, she said, a CPS investigator told her that the sect would “kill all of the children they deemed to be imperfect.”
Another mental health worker described the coliseum where the children were staying after being seized by the state as “like a Nazi concentration camp,” saying the children were given inadequate food and lived in cramped quarters.
She said the lights were kept on at all hours and that CPS workers would shine flashlights in the faces of the women. When the mothers were separated from their children and returned to the ranch, several mental health workers said, they were not given a chance to say goodbye to their children.
By the end of their multiweek time in the emergency shelters, the women and children appeared “weak, confused and downright exhausted,” wrote Bianca Spies.
Another mental health worker, Terre Reid, said she heard a CPS worker say, “These women will have to choose between their church and their kids.”
So, when will we see the anti-Gitmo protesters picketing outside the doors of Texas courts?
Comment by alppuccino on 5/28 @ 8:02 am #
90% of the CPS workers in America will vote Dem. Most of them are rabid liberals.
Redundant.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 8:04 am #
Darleen – Simply by posting this you condone childrape and childmarriage and endorse the FLDS lifestyle.
Comment by BJTexs on 5/28 @ 8:08 am #
This story gets worse and worse, from the original moral issues of the polygamy and possible child exploitation right through to the the sorry and heavy handed way this case was handled.
Just plain sad and ridiculous all the way from soup to nuts.
Oh, speaking of nuts, shut up, nishi!
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/28 @ 8:08 am #
There won’t be any protests because the protesters won’t have the chance to water board each other.
(I still giggle when I think how more protesters have water boarded each other than the government has actual terrorists. If it’s such a heinous evil, so traumatic as to rate as torture, why are they doing it to each other on the street? And should the protesters involved be arrested for assault and battery? Last I checked, the First Amendment doesn’t give you carte blanche to torture people.
I guess in the end it turns out water boarding isn’t torture, just unpleasant, and everyone — especially the protesters — knows it.)
Comment by Ouroboros on 5/28 @ 8:11 am #
This story isnt going to get any traction until either someone produces some pictures of the Mormom milfs doing nude human pyramids or a memo directly from Chimpy to Blackwater authorizing their arrest and waterboarding (with logistical support from Halliburton)… If abuse by an approved party social agency is all you got.. it’s old news.. The abuses by CPS are common knowledge and legion…
Comment by SarahW on 5/28 @ 8:17 am #
FDLS uses waterboarding of babies, to teach them not to cry.
I saw a former FDLS wife, an escapee, describe the practice.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 8:25 am #
nishit condones childtorture.
Comment by alppuccino on 5/28 @ 8:26 am #
“My ………uh………great-great-grandmother escaped from a Texas FLDS compound when she was ………uh…….7. She waited until the Elders finished their……….uh………. business – she didn’t make a sound – then she scaled the wall and ………uh…….hotwired the church bus. It was ……….uh……….a hybrid. She drove over the Texas state line and right into……….uh……..Hawaii. She lived happily ever after.”
–Barack Obama
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 8:29 am #
- Darleen – I continue to condemn the CPS AND the FDSS child abusers. CPS gestopo screwups are simply typical of family service orgs across the country.
- That, in no way, absolves the sect for their actions. I continue to hope that the stupidity of the CPS idiots will not result in the perps slithering away in the smoke screen, with the result that the child abuse continues.
- What do you make of the released “marriage” pictures from this morning, or are we so intent on revamping the service orgs, we have no time for the 12 year olds in those photos?
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/28 @ 8:56 am #
The problem, BBH, is that CPS may have screwed things up so badly there’s no possibility of a prosecution.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 9:12 am #
- I’m as upset as anyone about that Rob, but not so upset I’m going to take my eye off the crimes of the cult.
- BTW. If the countries laws are incapible of dealing with this sort of social scam, namely playing fast and loose with the laws as a “family”, and then screaming for “individual” rights when your ass is exposed, then someone within the lagal establishment with a working brain needs to review the way the laws are being used by these groups, and write some legislation to end this practice, and do it in such a way that it stays within the Constitution, otherwise these perps will continue to flourish. And yes, at the expense of the children.
- This may also be the best thing that could happen, because it brings attention to an impossibly wrong headed organizational problem, and could be the impetus for revamping all family services across the board. In that one sense maybe its a good thing.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/28 @ 9:18 am #
But if the cult gets away with it, it’s because CPS screwed up. *AND* the manner in which CPS screwed up is, apparently the standard MO of their office.
Which, frankly, should have real law enforcement officials crawling all over the CPS.
Comment by mac on 5/28 @ 9:19 am #
The Mormon Chaplain (and Romney delegate) said he talked with one of the detainees who claimed the guards put the Book of Mormon in buckets of filth. I have heard that Monbiot of the Guardian UK is going with a front page 5000 word expose on the Texas CPS after interviewing a UK detainee released to the Brown gov’t last week.
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 9:20 am #
BBH
The individuals who committed crimes in this instance should be punished, presuming that there is evidence to convict them. That said, the civil rights abuses by a state agency in this case are also crimes, and our system is designed to treat the latter as more important to our society than the former.
Comment by retro on 5/28 @ 9:33 am #
Less than 100 years ago it was common for a “woman” of 13 or 15 years of age to be married, in fact if a woman wasn’t married by her mid 20’s she was likely to be considered a spinster.
Now all the “modern day pharisees” are just “horrified” at the “child abuse”?
Get over yourselves. Give the children back to their mothers and get the morons from the government the hell out of there.
Comment by Rob O'Connor on 5/28 @ 9:41 am #
A 100 years ago a woman couldn’t vote either. Do you really want to go there?
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 9:43 am #
retro – slavery was legal once too. You planning on bringing that back in talltown?
Comment by retro on 5/28 @ 9:45 am #
See what I mean? Moron.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 9:55 am #
Rob – The Mayor of talltown thinks we are morons because we do not share his indifferent attitude towards marrying and sleeping with prepubescent teens.
Comment by Rob O'Connor on 5/28 @ 10:01 am #
Please retro, explain it to me! Do you understand the impact of children born to teenagers in terms of education, health, etc.? Your ignorance if profound!
Comment by houstonian on 5/28 @ 10:11 am #
Those who don’t want us to be outraged by what CPS has done obviously believe that a worthy end justifies any means.
There are many reasons to dislike the FDLS besides just polygamy: (1) the systematic exiling of boys so the older men can have free rein of the young women, (2) welfare fraud means we Texan taxpayers financed this scheme, (3) statutory rape–though whether this actually happened has been obscured by the already-debunked claims of CPS.
FLDS deserves our scorn, but they do not deserve the jack-booted thuggery of the CPS. Invading their homes and removing their children. Child Services, if not carefully controlled, is the supreme example of state power run rampant. Once a CPS caseworker gets assigned to a family (deserved or not), that family’s life becomes a living hell.
Worse still, the grass-fuckers at Texas CPS, while conducting their jihad against FDLS, blithely returned a three-year-old to her well-known abusive home where she was beaten to death. They just did not want to be interrupted with real concerns (protecting children from immediate threats) while they were enforcing their agenda elsewhere.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 10:11 am #
100 years ago the Cubs won their last World Series. I think we are onto something here.
Comment by Rob O'Connor on 5/28 @ 10:11 am #
JD, Elbert Hubbard said,”If you can’t answer a man’s argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.”
Studies on the socio-economic impact of children born to teen-aged mothers are disturbing(and many), but retro’s casual attitude of children having children is reckless.
Comment by alppuccino on 5/28 @ 10:21 am #
In 1908 the average life span was 48 years, so in 1908-years a 13-year-old would be like 28. Roughly.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 10:22 am #
Rob – Elbert Hubbard is a cocksucking motherfucker.
Comment by Rob O'Connor on 5/28 @ 10:31 am #
JD, well stated! I’m sure retro would approve. And houstonian using the term “grass-fuckers”! I’ve never heard that before.
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 10:35 am #
BBH, can you (or anyone) enumerate the FLDS’s crimes? Same question, houstonian.
It’s safe to say no organization is blameless. It’s pragmatic to call the FLDS freaks. But it’s not useful to preconvict anyone, much less an entire community of half a thousand.
As is asked and never answered: By what fundamental right (not authority; that is already clear) would we not, by the same logic, invade every urban population in the entire country for the concrete potential of criminal risk to children, and every household in the country by the same preemptive morality Texas used against the FLDS?
One could argue both that in this case Texas law was designed to oppress a private community — also raising the issue of the State’s right to single out a particular expression of religious ethic — and that any given inner city has, per capita, more criminality, abuse, and harm to children than the FLDS allegedly did.
A simple question that goes to the heart of the Constitution and Bill of Rights: Given that this preemption went so far as to include what appears to be official corruption, then by what right will the State ever presume to invade the private sector? Consider that the appeals court has overturned CPS and that all signs point to the group now suing the CPS into the ground for rights violations as you answer.
A crusading, socially-active, bigoted, moralistic government is the last thing the founders intended.
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 10:38 am #
The press has no nanny state agenda. Because you see, all sorts of people not charged with crimes “flee” jurisdiction. Live and learn.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 10:39 am #
Rob – grass fuckers are just an eco-friendly version of goat fuckers, not so distant cousins to the goat fucking incestuous pedophilic asshat Mohammed.
Comment by lee on 5/28 @ 10:43 am #
Um, JD, to be fair I think what retro was getting at is women marrying at 17 is not the same as abusing “prepubesent girls”.
If that happened, the one who did it should be prosecuted, don’t condemn everyone else in town.
By the way, when I was 18 I married my 17 y.o. Girlfriend. Am I a child rapist?
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 10:46 am #
Where do you live?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 10:48 am #
hahaha, well darleen had to post this….shez gettin her ass kicked on michele’s thread at the Pajamafia.
lulz.
whip up all all the faux indignation you want, proteins.
the courts will decide this.
;)
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 10:50 am #
lee – To be fair, retro used 13 and 15 as his reference points. That was not something I just pulled out of a gerbil cave.
According to Texas law, as long as your ages were within 3 years of each other, you are fine.
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 10:51 am #
Surely Kwame Malik Kilpatrick knows.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 10:53 am #
- lee – No. Its a common mis-conception. Child abuse laws are primarily written to protect kids from pedophilic adults, not other kids.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 10:54 am #
Does the nishit ever shut up?
Comment by Rob O'Connor on 5/28 @ 10:54 am #
So if there is abuse going on in the FLDS compound, and all you have is the word of former FLDS members, but no access to the grounds to physically prove it, how do you help those allegedly being abused?
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 10:55 am #
You were 180 degrees out of phase on McCain’s health.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 10:56 am #
- JD – wait a few and you’ll get your answer.
Comment by Cave Bear on 5/28 @ 11:00 am #
Hate to break it to you all, but retro is right. And there was a reason, in that the life expectancy back then was around 40 give or take a few years. And how can a teenager be “prepubescent”?
I’m not advocating what the FLDS is accused of (although so far, there has been no evidence of statutory rape having taken place there), but today’s attitudes about “underage sex” (as opposed to pedophilia; a nontrivial difference that a lot of people seem to be unable to grasp) are more of a social and cultural thing than any fundamental physiological rationale for girls that age to not “do it”.
When I was a teenager (keeping in mind that this was back in the early “we’ll fuck anything that moves” 1970s), I lost count of all the teenaged girls, from 14 and 15 on up, who were out there doing the nasty, and they all knew exactly what they were doing, too.
Teenaged pregnancy has always been with us, which is why “homes for unwed mothers” used to be so ubiquitous. Again, I’m not advocating “underage sex”, but the simple fact is, it happens. All the time. And by NO means is it unique to kooky sects like the FLDS.
Clearly the Texas CPS screwed the pooch in a major way with this deal, and assuming any statutory rape did take place, they are going to be hard pressed to prove it now, given the mess that the state has made. And they will have no one to blame but themselves.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 11:01 am #
It is entirely possible to view the alleged actions of the FLDS and the CPS with revulsion.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 11:01 am #
- Rob. That was the point I tried to bring up, yet again. No one seems to want to address that question. Maybe the answer is, we simply do not live in the kind of society that can deal with such perversions of the law in a Constitutional manner. I don’t know, and I have still not seen a single suggestion, other than the CPS should be dragged by their feet and strung up from the nearest tree.
- That takes care of the CPS. Still nothing about what, if anything, can be done about certain cults and their asocial behavior.
- OTOH, they’d probably just move to Canada, or some such place where they’d be free of any such social moors.
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 11:01 am #
So if there is abuse going on in the FLDS compound, and all you have is the word of former FLDS members, but no access to the grounds to physically prove it, how do you help those allegedly being abused?
You obtain a court order based on an affidavit of the witness to investigate a particular and limited search and/or seizure. You do not get blanket access to seize all minor children on the possibility that there may be criminal activity. The former is due process, the latter is a fishing expedition and is illegal.
Comment by lee on 5/28 @ 11:06 am #
JD, I still think you miss the point, and 15 still isn’t prepubesent.
If you want to be really morally outraged, think about Ca legalizing abortions for 12 yo’s without parental conscent.
I bet those kids are better taken care of than those in the population at large, on the whole.
Comment by Cave Bear on 5/28 @ 11:07 am #
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 10:55 am #
“the courts will decide this.
You were 180 degrees out of phase on McCain’s health.”
I’m afraid our rocket-powered turtle is ALWAYS 180 degress out of phase. A pity….
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 11:07 am #
Lots of things happen, but that does not mean we should just accept them. I was shooting for hyperbole with the whole prepubescent teenager thing, But they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I am pretty sure a Venn diagram would show some overlap.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 11:10 am #
lee – retro chose the ages of 13 and 15. Not I. And I get the point. I just do not share the same indifference.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 11:13 am #
- EG – I agree with your scenario, with one exception. The FLDS brands itself as a “family”, a compound. If criminal activity involving children is susspected based on warrentable evidence, then the entire compound would be included, much the same as if it were a school being searched. That they did things from top to bottom that are clearly illegal does not mean it could not have been handled properly, and due process followed.
- It would be difficult to argue, by the very description of the cults own words of their family operation, that any of the adults were unaware of what goes on in the compound 24/7. In fact, it could be argued that when you join such a cult you are giving your acceptance to any and all practices.
Comment by Rob O'Connor on 5/28 @ 11:15 am #
So they move the bad actors to another compound in another state. Problem solved.
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 11:16 am #
Evidence, BBH? As to self-identification, so what?
Also: I’m aware that crimes will be committed in my community today. When I joined this city, did I undertake liability?
Comment by Cave Bear on 5/28 @ 11:18 am #
JD,
No one is say we should “just accept” such things. The problem here is that, despite the CPS wading into this with ten-league boots, we don’t even know for sure that any underage sex was taking place.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 11:25 am #
- JH – The difference is you live in an “open” community. The FDLS is not open in any sense of the word.
- Closed compounds of this type skirt the laws of sovereignty. That is they come close to setting up their own little countries within the borders of the US, something that is decidedly not legal from any standpoint. The fact that, in general, no one does anything about it does not negate that. Whether society should do anything about it is another discussion. Maybe not. I think the test usually followed is, “Are they a danger to themselves or others”.
- Remember. If the CPS couldn’t convince a judge of the affirmative to that question they wouldn’t have gotten their warrant, and here I’m assuming they didn’t use a buckaroo judge that simply hates the FLDS.
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 11:26 am #
BBH
This is not a new problem. We have RICO statutes precisely because criminal enterprises cannot be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their criminality just because they are willing to stand together in silence. If the CPS considered this a legitimate concern, then the use of the tools of that statute should have been invoked.
I agree that this group was not acting legally, but the use of illegal tactics on the part of the state can never be justified. Once we justify it we cease to be equal under the law, and as such cease to be a society of laws. It’s the paving on the road to hell and all that.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 11:29 am #
“You were 180 degrees out of phase on McCain’s health.â€Â
i was? where are the cognitive facility tests that show McCain’s “mental age”.
And what would a term-life policy cost him?
no one has answered those questions for me.
;)
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 11:30 am #
There is no legal standard I’m aware of that supports your claims that “closed” communities are immune from law and/or are “illegal”, BBH. In fact, proof is seen in them being herded up for violations, hopefully (but not ultimately) by way of reasonable suspicion and due process. What would anybody “do anything about”?
As for being a danger to themselves, see #27 and #50. Ever watch Cops? The whole damn country sees authority as a nanny. Problem is, it simply ain’t; not constitutionally lawfully.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 11:33 am #
- nishnonutz – If we answer that question for you, do you promise to pay the premiums. I’m sure McDinosaur would be happy to have another mill of life insurance, although I’m betting O’s family would be a bit happier if he recieved same.
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 11:34 am #
Where are the cognitive facility tests that show Obamessiah’s “ethical ageâ€Â, nuggie? Or Hilary’s lie-detector results. Or what a Clinton Administration would mean in terms of costs to society.
No one has answered those questions for me.
And with good reason. Moron.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 11:38 am #
- JH – Read the laws concerning “Indian Nations”, and you’ll see how compounds such as Waco, et al, are/were attempting to do exactly the same thing. Inaction is not the same as legal.
Comment by Carin- on 5/28 @ 11:39 am #
Do you understand the impact of children born to teenagers in terms of education, health, etc.?
Surely Kwame Malik Kilpatrick knows.
But, remember JHoward. We don’t care about those brown babies.
While agree that something should be done so that young girls are not forced into marriages, apparently rounding them all up and putting them under the care of CPS isn’t the answer.
I believe part of the control this group holds over its members is the strong familial bond. They don’t leave (free will or not), because they don’t want to be without their extended family.
I don’t see an answer to this.
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 11:41 am #
What prevents the victims from merely walking out the door and never returning?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 11:42 am #
dur, carin, the answer is prosecution of criminal activity.
thus, DNA testing.
;)
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 11:45 am #
“What prevents the victims from merely walking out the door and never returning?”
edu guy, how about a lifetime of indoctrination, little formal education, no marketable skills, and a baby?
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 11:45 am #
- #60 – Ah, if life were only that simple, we wouldn’t be discussing this now.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 11:47 am #
i was? where are the cognitive facility tests that show McCain’s “mental ageâ€Â.
I wonder if the goalposts ever get heavy. I also wonder how convenient it must be to simply rewrite history as she strolls along spewing gibberish. I also wonder how Ashton Kucher got to marry Demi Moore. And I wonder how Jessica Simpson’s ho sister with nails on chalkboard voice ever made an albumn, or why people bought it. And Cabbage Patch kids – I never got it. And, Kyoto.
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 11:49 am #
#63 – Indeed, and I am not convinced that this line of thinking is correct (or moral), but if the victims don’t agree that they are victims, are they?
edu guy, how about a lifetime of indoctrination, little formal education, no marketable skills, and a baby?
Rationalizations. If someone really wants to do something, it can be damn hard to stop them. Some do leave right?
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/28 @ 11:50 am #
- I blame Bush. (Oh and that loud mouth asshole that makes all the obnoxious commercials.)
Comment by Carin- on 5/28 @ 11:58 am #
DNA testing of what? Based on what (baseless) allegation?
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 11:59 am #
Where was the ACLU on this one?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 12:00 pm #
yup, some do leave.
but a whole lot more would leave if they didn’t get knocked up first.
;)
Comment by Carin- on 5/28 @ 12:03 pm #
I bet a whole lot of them don’t WANT to leave because it would mean leaving everything and everyone they know. Mothers, fathers, siblings. To leave, is to be as good as dead.
I think this is what really bothers some. That some women would prefer to STAY, for rather rational reasons.
Comment by BJTexs on 5/28 @ 12:04 pm #
wash, rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat…
ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 12:04 pm #
DNA samples were obtained from all the children.
Professor Volkh discussed it on his thread.
the samples are useable evidence in family court, no matter how they were obtained.
like fingerprints.
Comment by Carin- on 5/28 @ 12:04 pm #
All this time in custody … how many ( I wonder) have let it spill that they want out? How many have claimed abuse? OR- how many just want to go home?
Comment by Carin- on 5/28 @ 12:06 pm #
DNA for what? What crime? You think they are lying about who is the parent of who? You think the DNA is going to reveal an 11 y/o mom?
Shit, I could find an 11 y/o mom in my old hood.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 12:07 pm #
wash, rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat… You forgot heavy lifting and wedge and xian and theconz and IDT and two digits and SCIENCE! and … blah, blah, blah.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 12:08 pm #
carin, the women may change their minds when they can’t get their children back.
this is about braking the cycle of abuse and indoctrination.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/28 @ 12:09 pm #
Really?
When did that become the state’s business?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 12:10 pm #
breaking
;)
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 12:11 pm #
this is about braking the cycle of abuse and indoctrination.
This is kind of scary, coming from a genocidal eugenecist.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/28 @ 12:12 pm #
NB: specifically the indoctrination. If there’s abuse, of course that’s the state’s business. But have any actual criminal charges been brought?
Comment by Pablo on 5/28 @ 12:12 pm #
Indoctrination, little education, no skills and a baby? We’d better raid Detroit.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/28 @ 12:13 pm #
Throw in polygamy and there are some neighborhoods in New Jersey that would qualify.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 5/28 @ 12:15 pm #
100 years ago, people traveled by horse and buggy, or by train. The Model T was still a few months from rollout. 100 years ago, telephones still looked like this. 100 years ago, the world record for flight distance was around 20 miles. 100 years ago, the first radio broadcasting station did not yet exist, and television was pure science fiction. 100 years ago, Goddard was just beginning to imagine liquid-fueled rockets, and Werner von Braun wasn’t yet a glimmer in anyone’s eye. Hitler was still a young man of 19.
So, right, why fuck with history? Why, a bare few millenia ago, kids didn’t have to go through school, and what was good enough then is by golly good enough now! Hell, as recently as a thousand years ago, the spoils of war were rape and loot. What was good for our ancestors sure as hell ought to be good for us, eh?
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 12:17 pm #
That’s no way to talk about government school and Chicago’s inner city. Or Detroit’s. Houston. LA. New York…
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 12:18 pm #
235 years or thereabouts ago they wrote the Constitution.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 12:23 pm #
well, JHoward, it only YOUR opinion this procedure was unconstitutional.
no one from CPS has been indited yet.
:)
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 12:24 pm #
DNA samples were obtained from all the children.
Professor Volkh discussed it on his thread.
the samples are useable evidence in family court, no matter how they were obtained.
like fingerprints.
It doesn’t seem right that this evidence, obtained by extra-legal means would be admissible, then again it is Family Court so logic and reason don’t apply. Of course this still leaves the problem of using this evidence to charge the men in criminal court. Which leaves you with an even bigger problem, if this whole thing was sparked by claims of criminal wrongdoing then the state seems to be playing a loose game of jurisdiction circumventing the rules of one court to help their case in another. There seems to be a chicken-egg issue here.
More likely, I am merely misunderstanding something.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 12:26 pm #
well, JHoward, it only YOUR opinion this procedure was unconstitutional.
no one from CPS has been indited yet.
They have not been indicted either. That does not make what you said any less brain poundingly idiotic.
Comment by JHoward on 5/28 @ 12:27 pm #
Nuggie-bot. Self-contradicting since 1990 or something.
Comment by Pablo on 5/28 @ 12:28 pm #
The profound lack of legal knowledge is both frightening and hilarious.
Comment by SGT Ted on 5/28 @ 12:30 pm #
how about a lifetime of indoctrination, little formal education, no marketable skills, and a baby?
This could be a reference to any inner city teenage girl attending public school. Or boy, for that matter, usually sans a baby, unless he hooked up with that girl.
Comment by DarthRove on 5/28 @ 12:30 pm #
I hereby accuse all CPS employees of polygamy and child rape.
There, neesh, you can indict them now. The accusation has been made.
Comment by Pablo on 5/28 @ 12:31 pm #
The other problem is that the youngest of the pregnant/mothers, all 5 of them, will turn 18 this year.
Comment by Pablo on 5/28 @ 12:32 pm #
Slart, telephones looked like nishi 100 years ago? kewl.
lulz.
Comment by B Moe on 5/28 @ 1:11 pm #
the samples are useable evidence in family court, no matter how they were obtained.
And that is a fucking FACT, cause nishfong read it on the interwebs.
100 years ago, people traveled by horse and buggy, or by train. The Model T was still a few months from rollout. 100 years ago, telephones still looked like this. 100 years ago, the world record for flight distance was around 20 miles. 100 years ago, the first radio broadcasting station did not yet exist, and television was pure science fiction.
I think the point is, the government hasn’t outlawed older modes of transportation, or communication, or most other archaic technologies or schools of thought. You or I may agree that young girls shouldn’t fuck around, but the bottom line is that 14 or 15 year old girls are fertile and have a woman’s hormones and reproductive drive. Don’t blame me, its evolution. The age of consent is a pretty arbitrary and abstract notion, and I don’t think discussions of it should be dismissed as obviously invalid and suspect.
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 1:15 pm #
Hey, what the hell happened to the curtsy? You just never see that anymore. Damned savages is what we’ve become.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 5/28 @ 1:24 pm #
I don’t. I do, though, dismiss the idea that 100-years-gone conditions necessarily apply in the here and now.
Comment by RAH on 5/28 @ 1:27 pm #
“edu guy, how about a lifetime of indoctrination, little formal education, no marketable skills, and a baby?”
By that standard lets take all the children of poor black females in Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia and DC and put them in state institutions and indoctrinate them corrrectly. Maybe that way these children would grow up with some morals like wrong to steal, kill or rape or having children before 20 years old and be able to support your children.
OOPS! I forgot they are in state institutions like public schools in inner cities. Maybe that is not a good idea.
What is the results of children raised in foster care on child and sex abuse,juvenile delinquency or criminal records? I bet higher than the rates of FLDS children.
I may not like the FLDS doctrine but from a societal viewpoint they are not as bad as what the inner cities have been producing and the resulting loss from crime.
Comment by MayBee on 5/28 @ 4:24 pm #
the bottom line is that 14 or 15 year old girls are fertile and have a woman’s hormones and reproductive drive. Don’t blame me, its evolution. The age of consent is a pretty arbitrary and abstract notion, and I don’t think discussions of it should be dismissed as obviously invalid and suspect.
Yes.
I think it is especially pertinent in this conversation because nishi has otherwise said she strongly rejects society’s morality. Yet the age of consent is based on nothing but the mores of our current society.
Comment by Pablo on 5/28 @ 4:26 pm #
From a biological standpoint, a scientific standpoint, old enough to bleed is old enough to breed. Nine, not so much.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 4:30 pm #
MayBee – nishit rejects all morals and ethics as they pertain to her and scientists. She has no qualms about dictating same to others.
Comment by Darleen on 5/28 @ 6:24 pm #
BBH
With all due respect, I do know that the FLDS, especially the properly imprisoned Jeff’s, has used its position of power to cause and perpetuate instances of criminal behavior.
But that does not excuse abbrogating the Constitution rights of the individuals of the belief system, nor should we for one instance tolerate the abuse that Texas CPS perpetrated against the Texas FLDS ranch.
If nothing else, CPS has probably driven every women in at that ranch deeper into the belief system. Nothing unites people like persecution, and CPS’s independently witnessed hate-filled treatment of the children they were ostensibly “saving”, is prejudicial persecution in spades.
Recall American history where other such social “do-gooders” wanted to save poor little red Indian children from a “primitive” lifestyle and seized them by the bushelful and adopted them out to the “proper” thinking white couples.
So what if the FLDS is a “closed” community. Has that stopped authorities from monitoring the KKK, militia groups and other closed groups with dubious belief systems? Why hasn’t CPS demanded that children of parents who teach rabid anti-American or racist beliefs be seized?
Because BELIEF is not enough. It is behavior and one can only hold those that commit the crimes as responsible.
The 18 y/o who had the newborn while in custody was terrified because she knew CPS is out to take her baby away. Other than being FLDS, what is her crime that she should lose her newborn forever? Did that threat and her imprisonment make her more or less willing to renounce her beliefs?
Rogue cops cause more harm to their fellow officers through the perception they create in the civilian public than any good they may have done in that once instance of getting the bad guy by extra-legal means.
CPS in Texas is a rogue agency and there is nothing they can say which can be considered credible in this case. Ever.
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 5/28 @ 8:44 pm #
Keep in mind that, unlike the last Texas religious compound incident, everyone here is walking away…
Give me a good Democrat Xtian burning any time!
Comment by B Moe on 5/28 @ 10:55 pm #
The 18 y/o who had the newborn while in custody was terrified because she knew CPS is out to take her baby away. Other than being FLDS, what is her crime that she should lose her newborn forever?
What was the newborns crime? What kind of a crapshoot is an infant thrust into the foster care system facing?
Comment by datadave on 5/29 @ 2:37 am #
Darleen’s choice of ‘victims’ is suspect. Any Religious nutcase is ok in her book, but if these were environmentalist groups or queers? She’s ok with the Feds spending billions chasing the extremely rare enviro-terrorist (if one exists as the Unibomber said he isn’t an environomentalist) while letting polygamists to run free throughout America. They’re quite open in their polygamy in northern Arizona, McCain’s backyard.
Comment by Pablo on 5/29 @ 3:05 am #
Either that, or your reading comprehension sucks, dave.
Comment by Rusty on 5/29 @ 5:07 am #
dave. You’re not ,kind of a moron’, you’re really a very special kind of a moron. Now shut up and pay attention. If you’re capable. It’s about probable cause. As in “No warrant shall be issued……………………..”
Comment by Education Guy on 5/29 @ 5:59 am #
Gay queers for mother gaia is the name of the Unibomber’s band. I’m not sure why you want to round them up though, dave.
Comment by JD on 5/29 @ 6:10 am #
The ELF just called dataidiot. They are pissed that you do not count them as eco-terrorists.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/29 @ 6:42 am #
Wow. That’s some breath-taking ignorance in that statement. Might wanna look into arsons that have struck housing developments and a few auto dealerships, davey.
Comment by Darleen on 5/29 @ 7:02 am #
notice how neonazi dave had to drag out eco-terrorist groups because I already mentioned white supremacist groups and that I approved of monitoring their behavior.
But let’s go with this for a moment, if CPS is rounding up all the children of people who are members of the Sierra Club sans due process, to demonstrate their evenhandedness with the FLDS, would dave feel better about it?
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/29 @ 7:16 am #
Nishi’s probably heartborken:
Comment by Slartibartfast on 5/29 @ 7:57 am #
Um, what?
Comment by Pablo on 5/29 @ 8:01 am #
BTW, Rob, that bit has become SOP in divorce….gender depending.
Comment by Pablo on 5/29 @ 3:26 pm #
Given that Aisha was married at six, I’d guess that precocious puberty didn’t play a role in her deflowering. But then, her husband was a prophet, so you never know.