The saga of the Texas CPS’s abbrogation of the civil rights of the residents of the FLDS continues
ELDORADO, Texas (CNN) — An 18-year-old who gave birth in state custody after she was incorrectly seized in a raid on a polygamist sect ranch says the state kept her in foster care in an effort to seize her baby. [...]
The state apparently agreed that Jessop was not a minor. A caseworker signed a statement saying Jessop gave her age as 18. Her birth certificate says so, along with a “bishop’s list” collected as evidence from the sect’s records.
There was also no denying she was weeks away from giving birth to her second child. And that, she believes, is why she wound up in foster care.
Of course, Texas CPS is denying everything. They maintain she never offered any id nor ever asked to be released from imprisonment foster care.
However, how much credibility can we give CPS at this point?
Jessop stands by her story, and her attorneys say they are considering a federal lawsuit against Texas officials for violating her civil rights.
That lawsuit, too, may benefit from a little noticed ruling last Monday, May 19, Michael C. v. Gresbach. It was a case in which a social worker entered a private school, without warrant and demanded to see two children she suspected had been spanked by their parents. She demanded the school not contact the parents and also denied any school official to be in the room while she “questioned” the children. The course of her “questioning” also included her forcing the children to partially disrobe in order for her to “examine” them for evidence of abuse. What was particularly alarming, according to the parents’ and children’s attorney, is the fact that this social worker’s behavior was not unusual
“The social worker performed these strip searches as a matter of routine, estimating that in perhaps one-half of the 300 or so cases she handled every year she subjected kids to a partial disrobing,†he said. “In fact, she testified that she considered it so routine that she did not bother to discuss her intentions with her supervisor, even though she spoke to her on her way to the school.â€ÂThe state had several social workers file affidavits saying they would have followed the same procedure. Crampton said, “That is an alarming admission, and we suspect you would find a similar pattern in social service offices all over America.â€Â
The social worker maintained not only did she have a “right” to conduct such a search but that she was immune from lawsuit.
Happily, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously disagreed with the social worker
“While we recognize that ‘child welfare caseworkers are often called upon to make difficult decisions without the benefit of extended deliberation’ in order to prevent ‘the most vulnerable members of society, children of tender years, from being physically abused,’ Heck, 327 F.3d at 525, we do not believe that requiring a child welfare caseworker to act in accordance with basic Fourth Amendment principles is an undue burden on the child welfare system, particularly when it is necessary to conduct an examination of a child’s body, which is undoubtedly ‘frightening, humiliating, and intrusive’ to the child. At the time Gresbach conducted the searches at Good Hope in 2004, there was a clearly established doctrine as to what actions a Bureau caseworker must take when conducting a child abuse investigation at a private school.”
What do you know? Parents do have Constitutional rights! Even parents in private, Christianist schools.
Whodda thunk it?
Comment by thor on 5/26 @ 11:50 pm #
Unfrickin’ believable. How is it that this is the State that can’t deport an illegal alien as she drops a welfare child yet they conspire with so much vigor to strip a legal American of her baby even as she is physically birthing in the maternity ward. Fuckin’ baby snatching Gestapo! The CPS has become a dark, perverse madness that doesn’t sleep.
The responsible Nifongs and Nishfongs better get jail time for this State-sponsored horror. This is out of control. If those FDLS pulled a Koresh, I wouldn’t agee, but yeah, I’d understand.
“We’ve received an anonymous phone call. Come out with your hands up. Except for your 464 children. Leave the children. Now, all of you, place your hands behind your back, and spread your legs. You have the right to remain silent.”
Comment by N. O'Brain on 5/27 @ 4:44 am #
These are the people who will be running your health care.
Comment by Carin- on 5/27 @ 5:08 am #
What do you know? Parents do have Constitutional rights! Even parents in private, Christianist schools
That may be so, but what about those homeschooling freaks?
Comment by bour3 on 5/27 @ 5:56 am #
You have to admit it’s an improvement over burning them all alive.
But those sect women concern me greatly. Their dresses seized my attention right off. They seem to make all their own dresses from the same pattern from a woefully narrow selection of textile. Which will simply not do. Then after apparently close attention to sartorial detail, they completely neglect their shoes. Did you see those women’s shoes? I think you can tell a lot about a person by their shoes, and what these shoes are telling me is these women are up to no good. Plus, this is America; conformity in hair style is undesirable. Period. It can only be viewed as Fascist and in America that’s unacceptable.
Moreover, this government attention given to Christian sects complying with US law is good practice and stands by way of warning, however clumsy. I can see-in-not-so-remote future more militant sects of an altogether different order being taken on. And that’s a good thing, innit? And quite necessary.
I think the government is right in showing concern about young women being coerced into arranged marriages and having childbirth forced upon them. Government does, however, need to refine its methods and from Waco to San Angelo we see this refinement in action, such as it is, and I have confidence that with the help of the courts to sort it all eventually they’ll become admirably good at this.
Comment by Pablo on 5/27 @ 6:12 am #
As long as we’re going after religious weirdos, I wonder when we’ll be raiding Islamberg.
Comment by Carin- on 5/27 @ 6:41 am #
Holy shiite. But be careful writing about them, because apparently they’re not above threatening bloggers.
I bet this is all BS. I mean, nishi told us if muslims had such a society in the US, we’d go all Waco on ‘em.
Comment by Pablo on 5/27 @ 6:52 am #
Well, you know, Robert Spencer, therfore, nothing to see here. Move along, fundie.
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 7:01 am #
…others are employed at a credit card processing center that maintains confidential financial records.
Isn’t that special.
Meanwhile: http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8378919
Comment by Carin- on 5/27 @ 7:03 am #
You’re right Pablo. I’m sure it’s just a hunting club or something. And the rednecks who live nearby are just racists haters afraid of the other. The
jihadistsfollowers of Allah (PBUH) need sentries at thecompoundretreat entrance to keep them safe from drooling two-digit Xians clinging to their bibles and guns.Comment by Carin- on 5/27 @ 7:06 am #
B Moe, from that story:
With my mad English skillz, I, too, could get a job at the AP. As a writer OR an editor. Woot!
Comment by JHoward on 5/27 @ 7:59 am #
Perhaps Volokh is right about immunity being questionable here, Darleen.
Yeah, I pray every day it’s not, so there. So arrest me, State.
Comment by JHoward on 5/27 @ 8:07 am #
Er, that is is. Clearly I need monitoring.
Comment by SGT Ted on 5/27 @ 11:50 am #
I’m surprised our resident eugenicist hasn’t shown up here to display her profound ignorance of due process yet again.
Comment by Amphipolis on 5/27 @ 2:30 pm #
HSLDA has been pursuing cases like this for years. Here’s a recent sample:
A federal court in Arizona has ruled that an unsupported threat to place children in custody, made to coerce cooperation with a social services investigation, violates the constitutional guarantee of family privacy and integrity.
http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/az/200710220.asp
Comment by Paul A'Barge on 5/27 @ 2:35 pm #
More on the fascism in Texas:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5803869.html
Comment by Karl on 5/27 @ 2:47 pm #
Insta-lanche!
Comment by Ella Lackey on 5/27 @ 2:49 pm #
Hmm. Second child at 18? That means child #1 was the offspring of statutory rape, by Texas law.
Comment by Jeffersonian on 5/27 @ 3:17 pm #
Not necessarily, Ella. The age of consent in Texas is 17.
Comment by bobby b on 5/27 @ 3:26 pm #
“That may be so, but what about those homeschooling freaks?”
Imagine how disadvantageous it must be to miss being taught some of the most important social skills such as denigrating people about whom you know nothing, namecalling in place of substantive discussion, and complete reliance for your world knowledge on jingoistic partisan liars.
Hardly seems worth it just to routinely outperform public-schooled kids in math, reading, writing, and most of the hard sciences.
Comment by muggsie on 5/27 @ 3:31 pm #
If the state had not gone in on hearing reports of underaged girls being forced to have sex with older men and young boys being expelled from the community to make their way on their own, everyone would be saying “where was the state on this issue?” when the information came out.
Comment by sobi on 5/27 @ 4:07 pm #
Speaking as a homeschooling freak, the HSLDA rocks bawls.
Comment by J on 5/27 @ 4:47 pm #
“everyone would be saying “where was the state on this issue?â€Â
That’s exactly what people would be saying if one of these 14 year olds had gone to the cops. You may think TX laws are uneccessarily restrictive in this area, but that’s a gripe against the law, not those enforcing it. There’s no question that according to the laws of that state, there was sexual abuse of children taking place (http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm) and that TX law required CPS (not sure if that’s the correct acronym there) to act. The fact that they found at least a few girls under the age of 16 pregnant kind of irrefutably demonstrates sexual assault as defined under TX law, at least if you take the FLDS folks at their word. Interesting that the appeals ruling, which in nearly every report I’ve seen is presented as the State getting smacked down completely, only applies to 38 of the women.
Comment by MAJ Mike on 5/27 @ 4:47 pm #
Well, golly.
At least they didn’t burn the children and the compund like Janet Reno!!
Comment by mockmook on 5/27 @ 4:50 pm #
“If the state had not gone in on hearing reports of underaged girls being forced to have sex with older men…”
Yeah, its not like they could have launched an investigation before declaring everyone guilty…
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/27 @ 4:58 pm #
J: so you’re telling us that every 16 year old girl in Texas who turns up pregnant is yanked out of her home?
Call me skeptical.
Comment by mockmook on 5/27 @ 4:59 pm #
“Heck,…we do not believe that requiring a child welfare caseworker to act in accordance with basic Fourth Amendment principles is an undue burden…”
I’m shocked by Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals use of such informal english ;-)
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 5:08 pm #
Interesting that the appeals ruling, which in nearly every report I’ve seen is presented as the State getting smacked down completely, only applies to 38 of the women.
So they only wrongfully incarcerated 38 women? They only wrongfully abducted the children of 38 families? Well hell, what is all the fuss about?
There’s no question that according to the laws of that state, there was sexual abuse of children taking place (http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm) and that TX law required CPS (not sure if that’s the correct acronym there) to act. The fact that they found at least a few girls under the age of 16 pregnant kind of irrefutably demonstrates sexual assault as defined under TX law
So the next time a fleeing criminal flees into an apartment building, you got no problem with the police rounding every resident up and incarcerating them all until they can prove their innocence? That sound cool to you? I mean, as long as they get the guilty dudes.
Comment by Steve Kartchner on 5/27 @ 5:19 pm #
“…others are employed at a credit card processing center that maintains confidential financial records.
Isn’t that special. ”
Moe,
I live in Utah and know a few fundie Mormons and know quite abit about their beliefs and practices.
They are extremly trustworthy and hard workers. They make great employee’s and do what they say they will do. They are fine working in sensitive areas.
That said. My consern with them is; they get their girls pregnant real young. This makes them and there children dependant on the cult for support. It is a never ending cycle of poverty. Seriously where is a 17 year old mother with no skills going to go to support her child? They love their children, just as much as we all do and will do what is needed to support them.
Before this raid the abused girls had two options the cult or the state. Now the second option is far less likely to be used, as the state has proven to be “Evil” just like their elders told them. This raid has reinforced their persecution complex, now it will be nearly impossible to find a real solution to this extremly serious problem.
Utah did some stupid BS like this in the 1950’s and it blew up in their face. It’ll be 2-3 generations before the state can try to make inroads into offering the girls, who are the real victims, a way out and stop the cycle.
As soon as I heard they had taken the babies away from the mothers I knew they had screwed this deal. The evil state taking suckling babies from breast feeding mothers, regardless of their beliefs, is not a good PR manuver.
Way to go Texas, at least you didn’t burn them.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 5:54 pm #
Two words for you, Steve.
DNA samples.
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 5:58 pm #
Steve, I should have been clearer, that quote was regarding the fundamentalist Islamic cult referenced in my link. I don’t consider them all that trustworthy.
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 5:59 pm #
Damn it, I meant Pablo’s link, Islamaberg.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 6:07 pm #
This is basically a states rights problem, as i was tryin to explain to michele catalano….but!!!!
she deleted my comments and banned me.
hahaha, like that hasnt happened before.
wat a chickenshit she’s become, tho.
i really looked up to her when i first discovered the blogverse.
she was the fiercest memewarrior ever at the Command Post…..
/shrug
oh well, times change.
i am pretty scary. ;)
darleen, shudn’t u tell ur new bf Christopf that ur a gramma?
Heres my fav comment from that that thread, for the nonlinkers, hehe.
griefer: Remember how Hannibal Lecteur only ate the Rude?
I only grief the Stupid.
olollolo11!!lol!
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 6:10 pm #
i am pretty scary. ;)
Ignorance usually is.
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 6:24 pm #
She didn’t delete your comments, either. You Fail!
Comment by DADvocate on 5/27 @ 6:27 pm #
As someone who has known many social workers and worked with some too, I’m not surprised by any of this.
Comment by alppuccino on 5/27 @ 6:28 pm #
dare we mention your Achilles heel again nishi?
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 6:44 pm #
Here you go nishfong:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90857818&ft=1&f=1001
No one knows how many Muslims in the U.S. live in polygamous families. But according to academics researching the issue, estimates range from 50,000 to 100,000 people.
Sounds like we need to round you all up until we do some DNA testing. You want to come in voluntarily or will we have to kick your fucking door down, because we don’t like polygs out here in the west.
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 6:45 pm #
oh good lord, nishi = griefer?
I should have recognized your foul stench on that thread.
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 7:00 pm #
J
Laws cannot be enforced selectively. You cannot go out and tell your police officers to enforce speeding laws only against blacks.
Cults in themselves have no rights, no group does, however individual members of ANY grouping – FLDS, black, gay, etc, have Constitutionally guaranteed civil rights. Read up on bills of attainder.
Also understand that this group in Texas has not been there that long, and no conception of children that did not take place in their jurisdiction can be criminalized. IE a 30 y/o mom with a 14 y/o son cannot have her child seized merely because she was underage at the time of his birth which took place in another state.
CPS offered no proof, no evidence, to demonstrate their seizure of 400+ children including the illegal designation of over 2 dozen adults AS children.
Considering that a Federal court has ruled that absent a dire and immediate emergency situation even social workers must honor parents’ and children’s 4th amendment rights AND if they don’t they may not claim qualified immunity, I’m heartened that maybe the Texas FLDS might end up owning that county.
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 7:02 pm #
Ella
It would be statutory rape only if the concept occured in that county.
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 7:17 pm #
bobby b
Point in fact, Carin was being sarcastic.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:18 pm #
lolz, moes she deleted a bunch, at least 6.
cowardly, chickenshit michele.
haha, can’t even argue with a grrrrrl any more hehe.
a disgrace to the legendary Command Post.
“maybe the Texas FLDS might end up owning”
hahahaha. they aint gonna own shit after the DNA results come in.
that will be sweet….hear yourselves defending the babyrapers acuz they are MORMONS and CHRISTIANS!
they selfdefine as mormons, dicentra, hehe.
All it will take one single childrape to vindicate the states actions!
hahaha
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:24 pm #
oh..and the FLDS patriarchy daddies that were working in aerospace?
just lost their jobs.
yeah, yeah, i know, discrimination an all that.
the patriarchy daddies get around anti-polyg laws with “spiritual marriage”.
we defenscons get around “firing” with “layoffs”.
IE a 30 y/o mom with a 14 y/o son cannot have her child seized merely because she was underage at the time of his birth which took place in another state.
but she can have her child seized for LYING about his age, haha, Texas made a law just just for that. ;)
it is totally obscene how you defend the babyrapers and sup-sapient breeder darleen.
you disgust me.
/spit
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 7:25 pm #
nishimonster
Your contempt for law and due process is duly noted.
Please emigrate, you foul the liberty of others.
Comment by Pablo on 5/27 @ 7:28 pm #
How dare you clean up what I shit on the rug!?! Coward!
Comment by Pablo on 5/27 @ 7:29 pm #
There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his pedophile. Right, nishi?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:30 pm #
lolz, i don’t give a rap about islamaberg, hehe, not like you guyz care about fellow CHRISTIANbabyrapers.
mainsteam islam has persecuted the sufi for eons.
if amerimuslims are breaking american law, i hope thay swing for it.
not like darleen….she honestly doesn’t think the babyrapers are doning anything wrong.
afterall, she thot terri’s parents owned the husk, too.
child-owners.
children as property.
/spit
Comment by Pablo on 5/27 @ 7:30 pm #
We’d better get our asses into Islamberg, post haste.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:32 pm #
Pablo, michele said ppl just shouldn’t respond to me…..but i guess deleting my comments and bannin me was much better!
hahaha, she a chickenshit.
no guts.
;)
Comment by happyfeet on 5/27 @ 7:33 pm #
Oh. That’s a good point. That Muhammed person liked the little ones. There really isn’t a corollary for that with Christian Jesus or Mormon Jesus that I know of.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:33 pm #
why not send the FLDS there pablo, they are copacetic.
they should get a long swell! ;)
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 7:34 pm #
See, nishi believes in bills of attainder. If one person is a babyraper (and far as I know the only true child raper we’ve discussed is Muhammed. Teenagers are not babies) then anyone sharing a home, family name, neighborhood with that criminal is the same AS that criminal.
Obama must then be a babyraper too, considering his father is a moslem and the founder of Islam was a baby raper.
Me, on the otherhand, abide by law, due process and the Constitution. The only person guilty of a crime is the person who committed it.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:35 pm #
why not have polyg reservations?
that would get the polygs out of Texas’ hair.
put all the FLDS polygs and the muslim polygs together!
sounds super to me. ;)
Comment by MayBee on 5/27 @ 7:35 pm #
mainsteam islam has persecuted the sufi for eons.
deleting my comments and bannin me
poor, poor nishi.
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 7:36 pm #
and nishi is into genocide too… she believes that any person who doesn’t fit her template of “worthy to live” must be euthanized, post-haste.
A worthy student of Mengele, this nishibot
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:37 pm #
dumbleen, what about states rights?
Texas is just executing its judicially enacted laws.
Oh, your a fake federalist, i forgot.
your only a federalist about samesexmarriage, not about polygs.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:38 pm #
hahaha, hypocrite!
michele is a coward and dumbleen is a hypocrite on states rights.
hahaha
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:43 pm #
hehe, don’t feel bad maybee.
i can’t remeber how many times i’ve been banned and deleted.
but remember, i only grief the Stupid, like Dr. Lecteur only ate the Rude.
its fun to see darleen squirm and defend the CHRISTIAN babyrapers!
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 7:47 pm #
Obama must then be a babyraper too, considering his father is a moslem and the founder of Islam was a babyraper.
See? that is just Stupid, isn’t it JHoward?
What do the rest of you protiens think?
isn’t that just a Stupid thing for Darleen to say?
i rest my case.
haha
Comment by MayBee on 5/27 @ 7:50 pm #
i can’t remeber how many times i’ve been banned and deleted.
I know, you’ve told us about your bannings and deletions before. It just seems so sad that then, on top of all of that, your chosen religion happens to be one that has been persecuted for thousands of years. I mean, what are the odds?
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 7:54 pm #
.hear yourselves defending the babyrapers acuz they are MORMONS and CHRISTIANS!
they selfdefine as mormons, dicentra, hehe.
For the last time, we are defending individual rights.
All it will take one single childrape to vindicate the states actions!
I like this even better, we will just execute all Muslims, all it will take is one terrorist to vindicate our actions. You want a blindfold, nishi?
Comment by happyfeet on 5/27 @ 7:55 pm #
Well we’ll just have to see what happens on this I guess. Could be one of those legal thingers that takes forever. No sense getting all worked up.
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 7:58 pm #
Fuck that, ‘feets, I want to lynch me some Muslims, by God.
Comment by happyfeet on 5/27 @ 8:01 pm #
Or we could go that way. I have to be up early though.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 8:01 pm #
yup feets, this is the most DNA samples ever collected at one time.
likely it will take at least 6 months just to process them.
the court cases will drag on for years, and cost the taxpayers millions.
also, the apellate courts ruling is being appealed and only 12 have children have been returned.
indeed, the appellate ruling only applies to 38 women, as someone (not darleen) pointed out.
many of those children will never go back to their biological mothers.
btw, paplo, there is no sucha thing as evidenciary exclusion in family law. ;)
Comment by happyfeet on 5/27 @ 8:03 pm #
Exactly. And in the next six months I promise to read an article on this. I really don’t get the fascination with it. Other than it being sort of a big mess.
Comment by happyfeet on 5/27 @ 8:04 pm #
Family law is scary. I learned that from JHoward and Pablo.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 8:08 pm #
i like my idea my better..it’s genius.
polygamy cannot actually be made a crime in the US because of the establishment clause…JHoward pointed that out I think.
and anyways, the polygs would just use spiritmarriage to get around it.
So only the polyg practices that involve childabuse like child fakemarriage and childrape can be criminalized.
that is wat Texas is trying to do inna states rights sense.
so lets just make a polyg reservation somewheres.
put all the muslims and FLDS all together, and let them breed extra girls and abandon the excess boys.
the FLDS believe that a man must have at least 3 wives to get to heaven–muslims can have between one and 4 i think.
i think it’s a super idea.
;)
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 8:13 pm #
well feets, it interests me because it is one of those polarized issues that divide the two sides of the looking glass.
even ppl like Dr. Reynolds will only link to the legal issues and completely avoid the moral questions about the FLDS’ exploitation of their children.
i have to think it is tribal, fellow christians in distress i guess.
i don’t feel like that about muslims.
if they are abusing their children, hang ‘em high.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/27 @ 8:17 pm #
what about states rights?
What about the Fourteenth Amendment, busu?
she deleted my comments and banned me.
hahaha, like that hasnt happened before.
wat a chickenshit
1) Good.
2) I’m sure it has.
3) It’s always someone else’s fault, isn’t it, busu?
Couldn’t be that you’re a psychotic, illiterate, spoiled child. Nope.
Moron.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 8:18 pm #
dur, i guess scientists need teh morals police but the FLDS don’t, cuz…..cuz…..well, they love Jesus.
Right proteins?
Comment by J on 5/27 @ 8:19 pm #
“so you’re telling us that every 16 year old girl in Texas who turns up pregnant is yanked out of her home?”
No. Going back to the law http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm :
“(e) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under
Subsection (a)(2) that:
(1) the actor was not more than three years older than
the victim and at the time of the offense”
I would guess the overwhelming majority of teen pregnancies in TX fall under that rule. In those that didn’t, if the father was a member of the household, yes, I’m pretty sure CPS would take the kids if they knew about it.
“So the next time a fleeing criminal flees into an apartment building, you got no problem with the police rounding every resident up and incarcerating them all until they can prove their innocence? That sound cool to you? I mean, as long as they get the guilty dudes”
I’ll make sure not to light a match. My post is about what the law says, and the fact that the appeals court clearly believes it has been violated by at least some FLDS households. If you think that isn’t the case, or that I’m wrong on what Texas law says, say so and say why. My opinion of that law or efforts to enforce it is not material to this discussion.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/27 @ 8:21 pm #
I would guess the overwhelming majority of teen pregnancies in TX fall under that rule.
You would “guess”, huh?
Do you have any, oh, I don’t know, evidence?
Comment by happyfeet on 5/27 @ 8:21 pm #
What I’ll say just right off I don’t see the analogy with Muslims being very salient. This is more a gothic Americana thing. Sort of like something that metastasized from the foothills of the Ozark mountains. I wonder if the FLDS has a church cookbook? It would be fun to make some of their cookies or maybe a casserole.
Comment by happyfeet on 5/27 @ 8:23 pm #
I bet they do crazy shit with jello.
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 8:29 pm #
My post is about what the law says, and the fact that the appeals court clearly believes it has been violated by at least some FLDS households. If you think that isn’t the case, or that I’m wrong on what Texas law says, say so and say why.
Because in the matters of presumption of innocence, due process, and probable cause the Constitution doesn’t care what Texas law says. Contrary to the idiotic braying about states rights by nishfong, they still have to follow Constitution restrictions of government force while enforcing those laws.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/27 @ 8:32 pm #
Do you have any, oh, I don’t know, evidence?
To be specific, J.: do you have an example of Texas CPS descending on, say, a public housing project, finding some pregnant teens, then seizing every child in the project?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 8:50 pm #
they still have to follow Constitution restrictions of government force while enforcing those laws.
then why havent ALL the children been returned?
why were only 38 women cited in the apellate courts ruling?
why is the apellate courts ruling being appealed?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 8:51 pm #
lolz feets i wouldn’t touch that cookbook with a tenfoot pole!
there is prolly a recipe for “14yr-old virgin hair pie.”
euwwwwwwwwwwww
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 8:58 pm #
Why have some of the children been returned?
Why is OJ walking the streets?
Why to we have appellate courts?
Why do we have a Supreme Court?
Why do you not implode into a blackhole as dense as you fucking act?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 9:06 pm #
12 children have been returned.
out of 400.
wats OJ got to do with this?
look–>
Darleen:”IE a 30 y/o mom with a 14 y/o son cannot have her child seized merely because she was underage at the time of his birth which took place in another state.”
see? Darleen doesnt care at all that that 30 yr old mom was raped 15 years ago.
no consequences because it wasn’t against the law there.
sickening.
Comment by JD on 5/27 @ 9:12 pm #
the nishit beshits herself everywhere she goes.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 9:13 pm #
awwwww, JD didn’t like my little hairpie joke.
tant pis
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 9:28 pm #
Darleen:â€ÂIE a 30 y/o mom with a 14 y/o son cannot have her child seized merely because she was underage at the time of his birth which took place in another state.â€Â
see? Darleen doesnt care at all that that 30 yr old mom was raped 15 years ago.
no consequences because it wasn’t against the law there.
sickening.
So in the cases of rape you think the woman should have her child taken from her? Should she be stoned, also?
Comment by JD on 5/27 @ 9:32 pm #
actually, nishit, I do not care so much for genocidal illiterate lying eugenecists. That you made a joke about hairpie was a point in your favor.
Comment by JD on 5/27 @ 9:34 pm #
/spit
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 9:38 pm #
I forgot, nishfong is an Obama acolyte, the child is punishment, huh?
Comment by MayBee on 5/27 @ 9:50 pm #
Maggie should get a Pulitzer for coming up with Nishfong.
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/27 @ 10:03 pm #
w007! but really, I’d be happy with a nickel for each use. ;D
also, the ignoring thing made this thread really easy to catch up on.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 10:13 pm #
sowwy,
there is no analogy between the corrupt prosecutor in the duke case and the state of texas vs the FLDS childslavers.
bzzzzzt wrong again twodigits.
;)
Comment by B Moe on 5/27 @ 10:21 pm #
Besides, nishfong wants to punish the victims of rape by stealing their children. Why do you want to punish the women, nishfong, is it because of the teachings of Mohammad? Because Allah wills it?
Comment by J on 5/27 @ 10:33 pm #
“To be specific, J.: do you have an example of Texas CPS descending on, say, a public housing project, finding some pregnant teens, then seizing every child in the project?”
Have you ever considered actually reading a comment before you wrote a response to it?
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/27 @ 10:42 pm #
well then, I guess it’s a good thing that that’s not the analogy that’s being made. dumbass.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 10:51 pm #
erm……and your analogy would be?
Comment by Foobie on 5/27 @ 10:54 pm #
The analogy would be:
Intelligence is to Nishimoron as
Prime Rib is to feces.
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 10:55 pm #
J
You the one assuming without offering any evidence. Again, the Constitutional rights of individuals is what matters. The US Constitution specifically bans bills of attainders, and no matter how much the Texas CPS tries this in the media, it remains that they attempted to treat every member of the ranch as if it were one person. It is a fact that CPS illegal imprisoned adult women as “minors” even though they were presented with id’s.
Regardless of how creedy the FLDS lifestyle, it does not absolve the authorities from their sworn duty to uphold the law, the state constitution and the Constitution of the United States.
They failed in the most spectacular fashion.
When a police officer goes rogue, they are more severely punished than a civilian doing the same crime. It’s because they occupy a position of public trust.
Every single CPS person in this case should be similarly punished.
Comment by thor - typical PW traffic driver on 5/27 @ 10:55 pm #
“Nishfong” – when you throw that stone it never misses the target.
I think BMoe reverberates a point mentioned earlier, namely, that even in cases of real rape (as opposed to the abstract construct of statutory rape), the State is not entitled to take possession of a rape victim’s child under the tortured logic that there’s a probability that the victim of rape may get raped again, and torturing logic one-step further, that the rape victim might, as result of her being raped, allow her offspring to be raped!
The State’s logic is beyond repair and certainly beyond the pale. Some in the FDLS are exploiting loop holes, and, in a weird way, I’m not sure they’re not entitled to do that because certainly so many others are exploiting the same loop holes.
The CPS must have honest welfare and concern for children as its last priority. Legally you can point and laugh at these people in the super market, you can stick your tongue at them, you can illuminate suspicions, but you simply can’t rip their children out of their arms. This is Goddamn America! Everyone has rights, even filthy Islamo-monkeys.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 10:56 pm #
it is my unnerstandin that nifong insisted that a white on black rape took place, when actuually it did not.
so you are arguing that no child abuse has been perpetrated by the FLDS?
Not a single statutory rape or child fakemarriage?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 10:58 pm #
here, i’ll reprint my comment from catalano’s post.
every individual is entitled to their constitutional rights.
even the children.
there are two issues here.
1) do the children’s rights not to be abused in the practice of the FLDS religion override the right of the adults to abuse their children in the practice of said religion?
2) does the state of Texas have the right to enforce it’s own laws?
the individuals in the commune are not separable.
the women could have kept their children by turnin over the perps.
they chose not to.
so they have joined the perpetrators as accomplices and enablers.
the judge said, that “all the children were at risk, either of being abused or becoming abusers.â€Â
the apellate court argued that in SOME cases the abuse was a minimal risk because of the very young age of the child.
12 children were returned to their bio mothers.
So yes michele, even polygs are innocent until proven guilty, UNLESS THERE IS SUSPECTED CHILD ABUSE.
if abuse is suspected then it is SOP to remove the child from the environment immediately.
not after the innocence or guilt of the suspected abuser has been resolved.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 11:02 pm #
the FLDS practice institutionalized child abuse.
it is a little more serious than fashion mockery i think thor.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/27 @ 11:02 pm #
the girl in that picture is 12.
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 11:05 pm #
thor
Look at the facts in the case of the social worker I cited. She totally disregarded the civil rights of both parents and children. She AND HER PEERS operated from a belief that any suspicion of any wrong doing by parents made their Constitutional rights forfeit.
This kind of thinking allows vindictive and unscrupulous people to punish their neighbors, estranged spouses, relatives, etc, merely by picking up a phone and siccing the CPS on someone.
I’ve actually seen those cases come across my desk and watch the anger on the face of the issuing DDA as they rejected the case for filing…because no matter if the case is turned down, the file lasts forever in the CPS and it makes even totally false accusations have a life of their own.
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 11:07 pm #
Thor
another thing
Nifong flogged the media with sensationalism and said every one of the LAX players at the house that night were GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY.
Those young men had their lives raped and they will never be whole again.
Comment by Darleen on 5/27 @ 11:11 pm #
Islam practices institutionalized child murder.
I guess I missed where Texas CPS removed all children from all practicing moslems in Dallas.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/27 @ 11:15 pm #
Have you ever considered actually reading a comment before you wrote a response to it?
So the answer is no, then.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/27 @ 11:19 pm #
So yes michele, even polygs are innocent until proven guilty, UNLESS THERE IS SUSPECTED CHILD ABUSE.
Funny, I must’ve missed the “child abuse exceptions” in the Fourth, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments.
When were those enacted, pray tell?
Comment by thor - typical PW traffic driver on 5/27 @ 11:21 pm #
Darleen, yes, and the CPS leaked wonton stories to the media of broken-boned children and anally raped boys.
What a bunch of pond scum. And even as an atheist I further state/admit this – I do not for one minute think if these (weird looking!) people were anything other than Christians that they’d have been treated this way. Soaking with Rio Grande river water, belly-full, brown-skinned no-speakey-English pregnant women are lovingly rescued! They only come here to work, after all. Odd-looking, White, Christian-Mormon off-shoots, string ‘em up and steal their children until they get the message that they’re cultists and rapists and they don’t belong!
Comment by thor - typical PW traffic driver on 5/27 @ 11:36 pm #
This human-rights-violating legal abyss is also exploited by Gloria Alred-type lawyers who file child abuse complaints during divorce proceeding to bolster the custody cases of their mostly female clients, albeit sometime men as well. The CPS is so complicit in exploitation and rights violations that they mustn’t be able to recognize a citizen’s rights to justice anymore. Don’t worry Darleen, I haven’t forgotten that one anonymous prank phone call started this whole horror show.
I’d like you to keep posting anything relevant on this case because I’d like to know what happened to that black lady in Colorado who made that prank phone call. I wonder what sort of judicial wrist slap she’ll get for causing all this pain and suffering, not that what she did makes the State is any less liable for their actions.
Comment by Pablo on 5/28 @ 2:25 am #
And not a party to this case. This girl was six.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 6:16 am #
and completely not relevent.
Warren Jeffs, however, is the prophet of the FLDS, the founder of the church and wholly emblematic of the FLDS institutionalized practices of childrape and childslavery.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 6:22 am #
a lot of the kids have the surname Jeffs Pablo.
all the judge had to do was hold a “sincere belief” in the validity of the evidence at the time to issue the warrants.
JHoward can correct me, but i do not believe evidencery rules on barring evidence apply to family court.
the DNA evidence will be admitted.
it may be argued over, but it will be admitted.
in darleens example, the mother raped at 15 may have been in Arizona, or even in Canada at the time.
but she will be unable to prove it because of the FLDS practice of obfusticating records and giving false information.
that blade cuts both ways.
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 6:46 am #
but she will be unable to prove it because of the FLDS practice of obfusticating records and giving false information.
Hey three digit, who has the burden of proof under our system?
Comment by Darleen on 5/28 @ 6:51 am #
Muhammed, however, is the prophet of the Islam, the founder of the church and wholly emblematic of the Islamist institutionalized practices of childrape and childslavery and child murder.
Fixed it for you, nishi.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 6:51 am #
Those young men had their lives raped and they will never be whole again.
well so did these young men darleen.
haha, i guess there IS a parallel between nifong and the FLDS!
rawr!
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 6:55 am #
sry darleen, i already advocated putting all the polygs into a reseveration in YOUR state, amerimuslim and FLDS alike.
you can defend their constitutional rights to exploit and enslave their children from the predatory cali CPS.
guess wat?
the tide of opinion is turning against you on michele’s thread.
better go check.
hahahaha!
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 6:55 am #
nishit advocates a system devoid of morals and ethics, except when she wants to impose her morals and ethics (or lack thereof) on the rest of the population.
Comment by Education Guy on 5/28 @ 6:59 am #
It’s interesting how often separating people into different “settlements” is offered as a solution by nishi.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/28 @ 7:04 am #
Anyone else savoring the irony of the self-proclaimed libertarian calling for collective guilt and ignoring due process?
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 7:05 am #
Yeah, Darleen. Nishit, gamera, AND griefer are all disagreement with you. The tide is turning.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 7:12 am #
haha, nope i’m still a libertarian, im for the States rights of Texas to enact and enforce their own laws, and the constitutional rights of the children not be abused or exploited by their FLDS parents.
go look JD.
;)
sic semper Stupidius
Comment by B Moe on 5/28 @ 7:21 am #
the individuals in the commune are not separable.
…
haha, nope i’m still a libertarian
You are an idiot.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/28 @ 7:24 am #
Anyone else still savoring the irony of the self-proclaimed libertarian calling for collective guilt and ignoring due process?
Methinks she doesn’t quite understand the concepts of “rights” and “libertarian”.
Comment by J on 5/28 @ 8:17 am #
“Have you ever considered actually reading a comment before you wrote a response to it?
So the answer is no, then.”
Correct.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/28 @ 8:30 am #
Parents do have Constitutional rights!
so do children.
Comment by JD on 5/28 @ 8:34 am #
nishi advocates for childtorture, eugenics, and genocide, so I am not sure that her opinions should carry much weight.
Comment by SGT Ted on 5/28 @ 10:19 am #
I also love the intellectual incoherence of someone who claims to be libertarian to the point of thinking children should be autonomous at birth but supports prosecuting and rounding up into camps those who marry children, as long as they call themselves Christians.
Nishi is a classic Progressive, after all. She Knows Better Than The Rest Of Us how we should think and live, to the point that she disregards the individual Liberties spelled out in the Constitution in favor of group punishment and guilt by association, as well as denial of due process and the presumption of innocence. She thinks that alleging crimes against children suspend the Constitutional rights of the accused.
You are one major idiot nishi. I am glad you got banned on that other board. So much for your vaunted “IQ”, which BTW, doesn’t impute any sort of common sense or valid education to the person.
Comment by Casey on 5/28 @ 8:50 pm #
Going by the nic, the bad grammar, poor spelling, and general abuse of punctuation, nishizonoshinji strongly resembles a whackjob who used to comment on Dean’s World fairly often. That one was a babbling idiot as well.
Me, I don’t get the amusement value of teasing trolls, but y’all knock yourselves out.
Ok. I tell a lie. I do get it, a little, but most of the time it just turns into actual work, instead of sport. ;-)
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/28 @ 9:41 pm #
Deflect and dissemble all you want, J. Won’t change the fact that you didn’t answer the question.
Because you can’t.
Comment by B Moe on 5/29 @ 12:31 am #
Parents do have Constitutional rights!
so do children.
Except when the state of Texas wants their DNA. Then they are shit out of luck.
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