Update at the bottom
ELDORADO, Texas  An Austin appeals court has ruled that Texas child welfare authorities acted improperly in removing more than 450 children from the FLDS Church’s YFZ Ranch.
The 3rd Court of Appeals ruled on a legal challenge by a group of FLDS mothers seeking to have their children returned to them immediately.
Lawyers for the mothers said the ruling only affects 38 FLDS mothers and their children, but they expect it will be interpreted by the courts to include the hundreds of other children taken in the early April raid.
“CPS was not justified in removing these children,” said Cynthia Martinez of the Texas Rio Grande Legal Aid Society, which is representing the mothers. “They did not provide any evidence that the children were in danger, and they acted hastily in removing the children.” [...]
The appeals court ruling said CPS failed to present evidence of physical danger to children who hadn’t reached puberty, nor evidence that pubescent female children were in physical danger other than the “pervasive system of belief” condoning polygamy and underage females having children.
“The existence of the FLDS belief system … by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger,” the court stated. “Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may someday have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal prior to full litigation of the issue as required … ”
The court said CPS did not make reasonable efforts to consider options other than removing the children.
One of the most unfortunate outcomes of this wildly unreasonable action of the CPS is to actually make more difficult the prosecution of real child abuse. The Texas CPS has destroyed its own credibility in their attempts to try the case in the press with salacious detail and failing to present any evidence at the collective, mass hearings on April 17-18.
The hearings have produced many surprises.The number of so-called “disputed minors” is dwindling.
At least eight young women have now been deemed to be adults.
A lawyer for a 14-year-old girl on the list said she is not pregnant, as the Texas DFPS had originally claimed.
“My client does not have children, is not pregnant. She’s the youngest on the list of disputed minors,” Andrea Sloan said in court.
The judge hearing the case objected, saying it was not relevant to the status hearing. Sloan pressed forward.
“The department is communicating to the public that there are 14-year-olds who are pregnant,” she said.
Way to go, Texas!
********************
Updated And the number of “disputed minors” shrinks even further
SAN ANGELO, Texas – Tina Louise Steed had just one question for a judge who declared her an adult Thursday morning.
“I’m wondering how come they wouldn’t believe my ID in the first place?” she asked Judge Jay Weatherby.
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services acknowledged that Tina Louise and three other “disputed minors” are actually adult women – admissions that came as the Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled it never had sufficient evidence to remove any children from a polygamous sect. [...]
The women declared adults on Thursday range in age from 20 to 24; a coming hearing would have shown one remaining disputed minor is 27.
Attorney Kim Bridges, who represents Priscilla Zitting’s daughters, told Judge Barbara Walther Thursday she has never been able to get information on why the state deemed the mother a minor or why it had now changed its position about her status.
The state listed Priscilla Zitting as “approximately 16″ on one court filing for the status hearing, though it showed her correct 1988 birth year on a chart offered as evidence during a hearing before Walther in April.
So Texas CPS can’t tell a 27 y/o from a 16 y/o? Or, by declaring these young women’s claims, even with id, as lies they were able to play to the medias appetite for sexy headlines and hope the spotlight moved elsewheres as they let the women go and adopt out the children? And if the FUBAR isn’t fun enough:
The hearings were hobbled by mix ups like this one:
David Barlow Steed came to Texas to help support his sister, Lori,whose child is now in state custody. When he arrived at the courthouse, a baliff wrote his name on charging papers identifying him as the father of his sister’s child.
Just like that, Steed, who has never lived in Texas or been to the YFZ Ranch, found himself embroiled in the case. Weatherby planned to sign a document releasing Steed from the case Thursday afternoon.
Because of teh chiiiilllllddddrreeeeeen!
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 7:51 pm #
Speechless…
Comment by McGehee on 5/22 @ 7:54 pm #
Are we sure Janet Reno is still in Florida?
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 7:55 pm #
- A few of the males in this low life bunch are hiding in the crowd. Thats exactly why they do it the way they do, to hide out of site of the public and authorities, and the law needs to spend some time and come up with an equally crafty way to deal with these people. Its a game, and the children are the losers. Thats just wrong.
Comment by JD on 5/22 @ 8:09 pm #
Are the families going to get their children back?
Comment by Ric Locke on 5/22 @ 8:14 pm #
It’s a despicable way to do it, but maybe, just maybe, this will serve as a precedent. The Canadians have “Human Rights Commissions”. We have “Child Protective Services” on the same basis — equal protection? due process? fooey! It’s for the cheeeldring. If this causes CPS to pull in their horns, even a little, we can rationalize what happened to the FLDS like we do bombing enemy cities in wartime: it helps defeat the bad guys, and most of them are assholes anyway.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Lee on 5/22 @ 8:31 pm #
The hearings have produced many surprises.The number of so-called “disputed minors†is dwindling.
At least eight young women have now been deemed to be adults.
FOX reports:
Of the 31 people the state initially said were underage mothers, 15 have been reclassified as adults, and one is 27.
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 8:53 pm #
What utter bullshit. Children like this are routinely abused, all neatly encapsulated. They are hidden in “families” that exploit them. Fine, return these kids and see what happens.
Comment by McGehee on 5/22 @ 8:57 pm #
It’s really a shame we don’t have judges with x-ray vision, super-hearing, and the ability to read minds.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 8:57 pm #
- Ric, I’m not supporting the way this was handled, but do it for the children is exactly where I’m coming from. If the Texas officials jumped the shark that will be delt with accordingly, and I’m not there involved, so I can’t comment on the procedures they use. I assume that will all come to light to an even greater degree. I also do not think society has a right to dictate life styles. the only dog society should have in this sort of dispute is the childrens safty and welfare. If the law over reached that can be even more damaging in the long run, because the perps, generally few in number, that systematically break the law vis a vis child abuse, hide, as I said, within these groups, ala Korish. He even contributed to a book bragging about it. Would you just throw up your hands and not even try to pursue justice with that sort of douchebag? I do not believe so, but that in no way would serve to excuse any excesses on the part of the Texas law enforcement. At the same time, agreeing that the phone call(s) this entire operation was based on is rather flimsy, if they didn’t act in some manner, and it became known to the public through our loving fourth column, they would have been excoriated for not doing their jobs. A lose-lose proposition at best.
Comment by SarahW on 5/22 @ 8:59 pm #
“evidence that pubescent female children were in physical danger other than the “pervasive system of belief†condoning polygamy and underage females having children.”
See now, there is my bias. I think that’s enough to show the girls ought to be gotten the hell out of there. They are essentially helpless to to anything but conform to that belief system without help.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:00 pm #
cynn
you know if there are instances of individual abuse, blame CPS, they blew this one big time.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:04 pm #
SarahW
So when do we yank the children from the Amish? Jehovah’s Witness? Pentacostals? Scientologists?
Or should we just, you know, make it a criminal offense to teach anyone under 18 any religious beliefs?
YES, the FLDS is creepy and polygamy cannot help but be exploitive. It just is. But beliefs, even creepy ones, are not illegal.
Otherwise, why not just make sure to get all gangbanger offspring, KKK/NLR/Aryan Nation offspring out of their family belief systems, too.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:04 pm #
Are you familiar with these TX laws and how they came to be, BBH?
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:04 pm #
oh, btw
pervasive system of belief†condoning polygamy and underage females having children.â€Â
So when are we banning rap?
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 9:05 pm #
The whole point of effective child protective services is that one must make an accurate, or at least a best scenario, call from the ground. Not easy. Try saving a kid’s life on the spot, when that is your mandate.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:07 pm #
We have lawmakers who think we do.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:08 pm #
Children like this are routinely abused
word inflation alert – define “abused”.
The law demands specifics…not what you FEEL is icky.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 9:10 pm #
#13 – No I am not, other than making an unsupported assumption they can’t be any more unctuous than Cal family laws. Thats the reason I limited my comments to the care and welfare of the children. As Darleen pointed out, the kids are essential defenseless chattle with these sorts of groups, and as I said, thats just wrong on so many levels.
- Police state tactics are obviously not the answer, but neither is just shrugging our shoulders and walking away, leaving children to their fates.
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 9:10 pm #
Darleen, you’re right. It’s not our call. We just clean up.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:11 pm #
cynn
stop blowing smoke up everyone’s ass. just what direct experience do you have in ANY child abuse case?
I’ve PROCESSED goddamned dead-baby cases, so if you have any thing of, you know, actual substance to contribute, then do it.
Me, I’m hoping those adult women classified as “minors” by CPS and unlawfully imprisoned sue the fuck out of CPS.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:16 pm #
You mean the hundreds of innocent kids, right?
I’ll ask cynn the same question: By what authority would we have a government aimed at protecting us from ourselves? I’d hoped it would protect our rights, it being our only vehicle with which to do so.
Because CPS (and family court) are clear travesties. So much for protection and the ink’s barely dry.
Oh, but they both honor the kid’s best interests. Like they did here for the last, what was it, a month?
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 9:17 pm #
- If you’re looking for the easy way out, why doesn’t the FDLS just take its act to NM. the age of consent is still 12 there I think. Of course then the perps would just start “marrying” children at 10. Yes I know they don’t actually legally marry them, that would bring them out in the open. Scum.
Comment by Ric Locke on 5/22 @ 9:18 pm #
Sacrificing due process, presumption of innocence, and equal protection at the simple call of for the cheeeeldring is a bad bargain for children and adults alike.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 9:21 pm #
- You’re repeating yourself Ric, without offering up any potential solutions.
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 9:23 pm #
darleen, you fucking dilletante. I work for a judge who hears murder preliminary hearings, and we are busier than ever. People are shaking babies, blasting their girlfriends, ignoring profound illnesses, and treating children like chattel for quite awhile. If you’re the puffed up prosecutor you hold yourself out to be you’d be doing something significant. But you just posture.
Comment by Lee on 5/22 @ 9:26 pm #
the only dog society should have in this sort of dispute is the childrens safty and welfare.
I disagree strongly BBH. The rights of the adults are just as valid as those of the children, and denying those rights based on a disagreement on proper thinking is scary shit.
I wonder how the incidence of sexual abuse in this community compares to the general population of Texas. Also from the Fox link from above:
Child-protection officials argued that five girls at the ranch had become pregnant at 15 and 16
and:
The court said the state failed to show that any more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and offered no evidence of sexual or physical abuse against the other children. Half the youngsters taken from the ranch were 5 or younger. Only a few dozen are teenage girls.
Of more than 440 children seized, only 5 were sexually abused. That seems a small percentage when compared to the population at large. Also, if they are saying that because a 16 year old girl becomes preggers there has been sexual child abuse, half the parents of my high school graduating class are deviants.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:27 pm #
BBH, this outcome demands we deal with the anxiety, fear, separation, and the host of legal rights violations suffered by hundreds — including Teh Children — at the hands of a State that had the charge to protect those essential things. As its primary responsibility.
There aren’t words for a child lost to the State, entirely wrongly, irretrievably for weeks and months, maybe forever.
Hunt up TX law and penalties concerning this tragedy and why they exist.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:27 pm #
BBH
Those “chattel” rounded up and shipped off in
cattlecarsbuses across hundreds of miles of the state included toddlers. More than half were under 10 years of age. CPS deliberately separated siblings, some apart by almost 600 miles, IMO, in order to make parents fail at visiting them regularly so CPS could adopt the kids out. There was testimony that some of the little ones were NOT thriving in foster care. Teen boys were sent to a Boys Ranch.Just who was being treated like chattel and criminals, eh?
Even non-sect relatives/fathers would not allowed to gain temporary custody of the children. I’ve NEVER seen that. It is unconscionable and the only thing that explains it was the CPS was less interested in the interests of the children then in breaking up the FLDS. Many mothers stated that CPS workers told them if they ever went back to the ranch they’d never see their children again.
That is the Soviet Union, not America.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:29 pm #
What, dammit? Answer the question.
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 9:29 pm #
Ric’s in trouble, because he departed from the herd-think. Horrors.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:34 pm #
cynn, third attempt: Does law enforcement prevent crime? Is the State here to protect you from crime or to prosecute crimes against you? I’ll take your silence as a concession.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 9:34 pm #
- Either I’m hellucinating or we’re talking past each other. What I’m hearing here is “Go ahead people, fuck ‘em all you like, we can’t tread on your adult rights so the kids are on their own”.
- That would be just as absurd as taking the position I’m seeing that any atempt to provide due process, or legal rights and saftey to children in positions of danger, or potential harm cannot be pursued.
- Lets stop that sort of BS because its isn’t helpful. No one with half a brain cell wants to throw out the baby with the bath water, they just want to find a way where the baby doesn’t drown. At least I think thats what most people with any sense would say.
- Your ball.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:35 pm #
cynn
Cool, you work for a judge (and damn how many times do I have to say I’m not an attorney, I just clerk for ‘em) but you don’t see the cases from police investigation up to filing. Ten years, babycakes, of working on murder cases, gang cases, crimes against children, rape, and then all the lesser than stuff.
But you of all people should then know that collectively holding “guilty” hundreds of people as “one household” is ridiculous.
Comeon cynn. Have you ever heard of toddlers and infants staying in foster/institutional care when relatives show up? Have you ever heard of fathers who are not a party to the investigation who come to take custody of their children being told “No, unless you sign onto the exact same paperwork admitting criminal culpability”?
Texas CPS fubared this good.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:40 pm #
BBH
If a crime is taking place, then gather the evidence and toss the perp in the darkest hole the state can dig.
But CPS can only point to FIVE possible cases of underage sex.
So why are 400+ child (and, so far, 15 adult women accused of being minors) in prison?
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:41 pm #
Again, BBH, #27. You miss the point of this post. It’s not to protect all the future victims of childhood crimes from crime, which is not the State’s job. It’s to prevent the State from trampling rights like it just did again.
Good luck suing a cop for showing up too late to stop the bullet leaving the gun. It’s not his job.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 9:41 pm #
- I denounce CPS, and all their relatives, and anyone that knows their relatives, and their house pets.
- I’ve heard some of the details of the jack-boot approach they have taken in this case. Consider them to be among the first to be cast into the pit of fire.
- Now how does society protect the rights of children, without running afowl of the rights of parents?
Comment by brian on 5/22 @ 9:44 pm #
Look, Texas CPS has been accused in the past of blowing apart families to adopt children out. Apparently they get money for every child they do this with. An acquaintance of mine was forced by CPS to kick his wife out of his house while their kangaroo court tried to pin something on her. In fact, they took his children, he had to fight to get them remanded to his mother, and even then on the condition that he and his wife not see them. On a phony charge (which I won’t discuss here because anything more specific would probably identify him). But his case was not atypical in Texas.
CPS is run by a bunch of overzealous ninnies who see abuse under every rock, and investigate every claim of abuse, no matter how absurd, as though it were the end of the world.
They all ought to be fired and replaced with intelligent beings with strong civilian oversight.
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 9:46 pm #
Jhoward: I shall not concede. Since I live in Denver, I can only say that law enforcement enhances crime, given the circumstances. I would say that the state has an obligation to enforce its laws, unless they conflict with your personal peeve-o-meter.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 9:46 pm #
-“It’s not to protect all the future victims of childhood crimes from crime, which is not the State’s job.”
- Absolutely correct. Absolutely. Not what I’m talking to here.
- It is, however, part and parcel of family law, besed squarly on the idea in fact, that their job includes NOT knowingly placing a child in harms way. The tricky part comes in making those sorts of judgements. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to have to do it for a living.
Comment by brian on 5/22 @ 9:47 pm #
The same way it protects my rights. Due process, investigation, etc. The idea that they can prevent harm by interfering pre-investigation is what led to the rousing success known as the “war on drugs”. Those no-knock raids really worked wonders, didn’t they?
I’m sorry BBH, but in the real world, sometimes innocent people are going to get hurt. Unless you want to live in a 100% surveillance state you just aren’t going to prevent it.
Life sucks. You can deal with that, or you can try to enslave everyone. I’ll leave it to you to decide which one is actually achievable.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:47 pm #
Family court, Darleen, more or less. Think of the United States of America as just one big San Angelo.
I’m not being facetious: The same legal presumptions and policies drive both. Both are initiated by special interests in respective legislatures. Both are for the children. Both pay, large.
Comment by Lee on 5/22 @ 9:47 pm #
how does society protect the rights of children, without running afowl of the rights of parents?
On an individual basis?
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:49 pm #
Concession accepted, cynn. #38 makes no sense.
Comment by Jeffersonian on 5/22 @ 9:51 pm #
I’m glad the kids are going back with their parents. If the State of Texas can make individual cases against the mothers and fathers, let them do it. But holding 400 kids hostage to try to get their mothers to squeal is something I’d expect from thugs in Beijing, not Austin.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:52 pm #
BBH
Now how does society protect the rights of children, without running afowl of the rights of parents?
Like they do when it concerns all crime. Diligence, patience and scrupulous adherence to the rule of law (investigate, gather evidence, file).
The law operates from the first assumption, that parents want to do right by their children. It is the default position unless something comes to the attention of others. Teachers, doctors, nurses … all have a legal obligation to report any possible abuse (unusual broken bones, bruises, etc). THAT is the probable cause to open an investigation.
In many ways I do not blame the cops for the initial raid on the compound if they believed the hoax call was real. Though, the caller made some big enough mistakes that a little investigation may have revealed it before they rolled the SWAT vehicles on the grounds. But the subsequent behavior of the CPS was so blatant as to be breathtaking.
On the other hand, I’ve also seen cases of people using CPS to punish neighbors/relatives/estranged spouses with unsubstantiated charges. I’m happy to say that the attorneys I work with are honorable and savvy enough to spot this and refuse to file charges (though, CPS is loathe to purge any file, even the totally unfounded ones, which can really f**kup innocent people). However, let’s recall Nifong and how unfounded charges can take on a life of their own.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 9:52 pm #
Ironic. Really read the history of this disaster, BBH. It appears Texas CPS willfully conflicted due process. They intended to do what they did.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 9:55 pm #
-“On an individual basis?”
- Well the law is clear that every case should be judged on its own merits.
- To the extent that is, or isn;t followed, and just how practical that proves to be across the board in dealing with “unusual” conditions such as you have with outside the main stream groups is another discusiion.
- The simple question of conflicts in “rights” is what I’ve been trying to discuss from the beginning. Its a simple question, with anything but simple answers.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 9:56 pm #
JH
In many criminal busts (think drug house, or drunk driving) where there are adults being taken into custody and children, calls go out immediately to relatives. I’ve never seen relatives (who are not a party to the criminal case) be denied temporary custody of children. Foster care is the 2nd to last resort – institutional care is dead last.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 10:00 pm #
#38 cynn
?????? are you channeling Prof. Irwin Corey?
Comment by RAH on 5/22 @ 10:00 pm #
This was a clear case of CPS going after a belief system. They had no testimony from a victim even when they held them for 6 weeks. It just maybe that these girls like their family system. Even if they had second thoughts, they would not help CPS since CPS lied to them and took away their children. Any young womwn who wants out now has to wait to get her children and then flee both CPS , Texas and FLDS.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 10:03 pm #
Here’s another: As bad as stuff is, raise your hand if you think it’s going to get better under McCain.
Or O!
The eve of dependency, baby.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 10:04 pm #
= Darleen, having been misunderstood from the git-go, I already condemned CPS to the rafters. Actually if they’re operating anything like Cal family services, none of them will be going to meet Gabriel. (Its hard to believe having delt with the Cal system, but I’ve seen and heard that Florida is even worse, sometimes actually “losing” all trace of children under their Gulag fingers.
- As I said, I think we’re off on two different tangents. Family courts/services across the land are disasters.
- The question of conflict of rights is still a good one, and the thing I was trying to discuss is the conflict, where I would tebd to lean toward the kids because they are at a obvious disadvantage.
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 10:06 pm #
OK, give ‘em all back. No problem. Administrative, not judicial error. Let them run free like the wind!!! Unfettered with incestuous and unbidden pregnancies. As a leftie, I believe in the protection of the least.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 10:09 pm #
You just refered to every urban population in the country, cynn.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 10:10 pm #
The question of conflict of rights is still a good one
BBH,
I believe I answered that. The law’s default position is that there is no reason to assume parents are harming their children unless evidence to the contrary is presented.
It’s the same as assuming married people aren’t beating the sh*t out of each other unless evidence to the contrary is presented.
It’s the same as assuming citizens are not committing wholesale crime unless evidence to the contrary is presented.
PROBABLE cause, BBH. Anything else is totalitarian.
Comment by RAH on 5/22 @ 10:10 pm #
I am glad to see that the Appeals Ct decided this quickly. From news reports the 31 minor girls with children will be down to the original five. CPS lied about their ages and refused to accept legal documents. Their despicable acts held an adult woman who was about to deliver just so they could steal her baby and hold it hostage against her behavior.
But their could keep their lies when they had to go to court. Then the women could prove theri were adults.
Five teenage pregnancies is not unusual in any neighborhood. My neighbors kids had 2 kids getting pregnant before 18. There was no accusation of rape. Even if the father was so much older they did not care since it was consensual and the grandparents were just wanted their grandkids and daugter safe.They just said goodby to the scum dad.
Teenagers being pregnent are not abnormal and cause to remove the teenager or any other children in the houshold. So why is that worse in FLDS than anywher else? We have equal protection of the laws.
The best thing about this case is that hopefully we will change CPS and the laws they operate under. Parents need more protection from police state tactics of CPS.
It is so easy to give a tip to CPS to destroy someone without any evidence. Even an unsubstantiated investigation sully’s the parent and puts them on a list.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:10 pm #
dur, i have come to think it was a setup.
TmjUtah said that Texas was just trying to run the FLDS out of town, an i believe him.
after consideration, i think the tip call was sketchy, and would have been overturned.
i think the texas officials expected this.
but…..i also think they got what they wanted…..DNA tests on every freakin child.
the only way they could get them.
do you membah what Jhoward said about texas law?
Once the DNA samples are taken they are admissable.
The state will be able to prosecute felonies and misdemeanors based on age of children and age of mothers.
felony for conducting the marriage ceremony of a minor is wat warren jeffs is doing time for right now.
i think the intent was to grab DNA even if they have to give the children back eventually.
notice the court has yet to order the children remanded to their parents.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 10:11 pm #
cynn
EVIDENCE! YOu know, that think your judge must consider and rule on at Prelim. No evidence? No held to answer.
Or does your judge consider such things old-fashioned?
Comment by Lee on 5/22 @ 10:12 pm #
Let them run free like the wind!!! Unfettered with incestuous and unbidden pregnancies.
Hells bells cynn, back away from the bottle.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:14 pm #
haha
i think Texas can railroad the polygs right out of town.
let’s hope they take their welfare fraud right to your state darleen.
the texas officials can’t be prosecuted, because they evidenced “sincere belief”.
but i sure betcha some of those FLDS patriarchy daddies can be.
;)
good times.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 10:15 pm #
hey nishi
I said it smelled like a setup from the beginning and you just rambled on and on and on.
And you’re STILL doing it.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 10:16 pm #
Go read Volokh for awhile, nuggie. http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_05_18-2008_05_24.shtml#1211494743
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 10:18 pm #
I love it: the more pissed off you mopes get, the worse I am. It’s beauty.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 10:19 pm #
- JH. Aside from personal preferences, issues, and intent of the various candidates, I don’t hold to the idea that anyone sitting in the oval office will be able to affect all that much change. The system is broken at such a fundamental level, even if we had the will, the entire populace, Its not clear it could ever be fixed. The gov rolls along with a fierce momentum of its own, with absolutely no “help” from us lowly citizens.
- On a brighter note, we can however effect change on a local level. Thats where the real gains can be made, assuming you don’t run afoul of the 9th circuit, the Dem party, or the ACLU.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 10:21 pm #
welfare fraud? Nope
nishi loses again.
such a surprise
Comment by Lee on 5/22 @ 10:21 pm #
see, you’re confused cynn.
You inspire pity, not anger.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 10:21 pm #
From the comments at the Volokh link:
One can hope.
Comment by McGehee on 5/22 @ 10:22 pm #
When did you become anti-abortion!!??
;-)
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:23 pm #
guess what darleen?
the DNA evidence is admissable.
no matter how it was obtained.
you got a soft spot for those FLDS patriarchy daddies?
you’re too old for them darleen.
they only like 14 year olds.
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 10:23 pm #
Darleen: You should know that in a preliminary hearing the standard is is proof evident presumption great — essentially meaning that a crime was committed and the defendant was involved? It’s really that simple!!
Comment by McGehee on 5/22 @ 10:24 pm #
Sounds like a lucrative business opportunity for me.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 10:25 pm #
nishi, Jeffs is doing time as an accomplice to rape, not for performing a marriage. Facts suck, I know, but STFU anyway.
As for CPS, if this is the extent of their evidence, they fubared the hell out of this one. And yes, those adult women held as minors should be getting rich on the backs of CPS.
Back when I thought they had a hell of a lot more than this, I was willing to give CPS the benefit of the doubt that they were actually doing what they were intended to do. I should have known better.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:26 pm #
eugene had never heard that apellation, polygs.
we call them polygs or polys out here in the west where we have more contact with them.
i guess it is derogative.
;)
such bad timing for handsomemormonguy, all this press about the FLDS right now.
hahaha
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 10:26 pm #
cynn, they’re nowhere near a criminal proceeding. This is exclusively family law at this point.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 10:27 pm #
Nishi, please fuck off. Adults are talking.
Comment by Inspector Callahan on 5/22 @ 10:28 pm #
the DNA evidence is admissable. no matter how it was obtained.
No matter how it was obtained? Really? How? If it was obtained during an illegal search (the phony nature of the call to CPS is a good argument), then the DNA evidence should be excluded.
CPS bungled this from the get-go, but my cynical nature says it was enough to scare these people away from the state of Texas. Let’s hope this show doesn’t repeat in other states.
TV (Harry)
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 10:30 pm #
#64, agreed, except keep an eye on the Violence Against Women Act, as well as a reinvigorated 2009 NOW and minions under an O! administration. Fascist doesn’t begin to describe it, and it will assuredly trickle down in the time it tales to read this.
Ergo, government is like cancer and rust and only a torch or knife will remove the tumor. No conservative P can fix it, but any non-conservative P can make it worse, and all have. Nothing like real choice.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 10:30 pm #
Oh, and Bush signed the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act the other day, so um…. no.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:31 pm #
ive had enuff volokh, tyvm.
snore city.
haha, i think im right and its brilliant.
this whole thing was contrived to get the DNA.
JHoward, you’re the one that said it looked like texas law was written explicity to prosecute the polygs.
be happy. :)
now they can.
lulz!
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 10:31 pm #
All those frumpy polygamiesters with their frumpy belted moo-moos are just asking to be baby factories anyway.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:32 pm #
pablo, the commenters said it was on the volkh thread.
u wrong.
;)
Comment by dicentra on 5/22 @ 10:33 pm #
I’m not reading or commenting on the previous statements, because I have no experience in family law.
But this story should give some pause: excommunicated FLDS testify in favor of the FLDS.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 10:33 pm #
cynn
It still depends upon testimony (usually just the arresting officer), even if the defense declines to present.
Yes, the threshold of held to answer is low, but it is there. Don’t tell me you’ve never seen your judge reject a case or even some charges in a filing?
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 10:34 pm #
Nishi, you can’t speak English. Fuck off.
cynn, that seems to not be the case, according to the evidence presented. Do you know something we don’t?
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 10:34 pm #
BWAH HA HA HA HAaaaaa, that and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:34 pm #
anyways, the GINA is for insurance eligibilty, not criminal eligibilty!
hahahaha
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 10:35 pm #
what a maroon.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:36 pm #
dicentra doesn’t work for me…..
why, the commenters here (like darleen) are stickin up for the FLDS patriarchy daddies and the zombie mommies, why shouldn’t someone that actually knows them stick up for them?
Comment by dicentra on 5/22 @ 10:37 pm #
Of course, no thread on “pertectin th’ chillin” from statutory rape is complete without the obligatory observation that Planned Parenthood will go ahead and perform an abortion on an underaged girl but not report that she’s been statutorily raped.
BECAUSE OF THE PROGRESSIVISM!
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:38 pm #
guess we shall see.
so far none of the 38 contested cases have the children remanded to the parents yet.
;)
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 10:39 pm #
nishi
exclusionary rule
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 10:39 pm #
- With the Amish girls its called “bundling”. A guy could be injured for life from all those damn safety pins.
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 10:39 pm #
first they came for the FLDS mommies and I said nothing….
Comment by dicentra on 5/22 @ 10:39 pm #
why, the commenters here (like darleen) are stickin up for the FLDS patriarchy daddies and the zombie mommies
When they came for the FLDS, I said nothing because I was not a polig.
When they came for the …
That’s why, honey. If they can screw over “weirdos” like the FLDS, there’s nothing to stop society from designating YOU as too weird to live.
Let me rephrase that: There’s nothing to stop ANYONE from from designating you as too weird to live.
Comment by dicentra on 5/22 @ 10:40 pm #
maggie:
JINXED! You owe me a coke, but could you make it a root beer? I can’t stand cola…
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:40 pm #
shorter dicentra: its fine for the FLDS to treat their women and children as chattel, and perform statuatory rape on minors because PP will provide an abortion for an underaged girl in distress.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 10:43 pm #
Darleen, can I ban nuggie-san from your thread? How’s this thing work, anyway?
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 10:44 pm #
All in favor, say “Aye”!
Aye!
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 10:44 pm #
sure, I hate root beer. but I did work at an A&W way back when.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 10:45 pm #
-“….There’s nothing to stop ANYONE from from designating you as too weird to live.
- maggie, thats already been done on countless occasions. Its like the blob. Nothing seems to stop it.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:46 pm #
#91
doesnt apply to DNA in criminal cases….
and anyways the judges argument only required “sincere belief”.
that can be fought over in court, the search and seizure of FLDS records and such.
but the volkh commenters (who know more than i, hehe) said the DNA would be admissible.
gee, darleen, it almost sounds like you want those childraping FLDS patriarchy daddies to get off.
hahaha
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 10:46 pm #
AYE, yi yi!
Comment by dicentra on 5/22 @ 10:47 pm #
shorter dicentra: its fine for the FLDS to treat their women and children as chattel, and perform statuatory rape on minors because PP will provide an abortion for an underaged girl in distress.
Uh, try “hypocrisy” squared. Society targets the FLDS because they’re too weak and too fringe to fight back, and they don’t generate all that much sympathy in the general population, but PP has gubmint funds flowing in all over the place and feminist organizations falling over themselves to make sure PP is never questioned or challenged.
Besides, systematic rape among the FLDS doesn’t seem to be all that evident, does it? Whereas we PP’s negligence is public record.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:48 pm #
oh, yah, im very wierd.
but i can take care of myself.
im not an FLDS chattel child or a zombie breeder.
;)
Comment by thor on 5/22 @ 10:48 pm #
High fives. Even to Ric. This case was built on lies from the start. Hopefully the Nifong’s responsible for this disaster will also enjoy some separation time from their families, meaning jail time.
What a total legal abortion. What a shredding of individual rights. What a freak show.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 10:49 pm #
It’s immune to reason, dicentra…
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:49 pm #
systematic rape among the FLDS doesn’t seem to be all that evident, does it?
we will see, won’t we?
thats what the DNA evidence is for.
Comment by JHoward on 5/22 @ 10:50 pm #
…and facts…
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 10:51 pm #
Especially facts.
Comment by dicentra on 5/22 @ 10:51 pm #
Furthermore, we can point at the FLDS and say things like “zombies” and “chattel,” but they’d be just as justified in pointing at the general population and saying “whores” “skags” “idolaters” (of $$$) or “heading for hell in a handbasket.”
I don’t agree with the FLDS extremities, but I don’t agree with the modern extremities either.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:52 pm #
why yesssss JHoward, and facts.
;)
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 10:52 pm #
- Hey. Nifong got his pension didn’t he. There is that.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 10:54 pm #
a small thing, dicentra.
the whores, skags, and idolators all get to exercise their free will as adults.
the chattel children and zombie breeders, not so much.
Comment by dicentra on 5/22 @ 10:54 pm #
How about this, nishi, just to blow your mind:
My great-great grandfathers, all 16 of them, had multiple wives. And see how well I turned out?
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 10:55 pm #
nishi
thank God you’re too terrified to be any kind of breeder
Comment by dicentra on 5/22 @ 10:55 pm #
the chattel children and zombie breeders, not so much.
You’re assuming there’s nothing in it for them to live like that. You’re also assuming that people who engage in immoral behavior are actually free.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 10:58 pm #
nishi
If you think prostitutes are exercising their “free will”, then you are more naive than any of the prarie-dressed women of FLDS. Ditto gangbanger mommies and kids.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 10:59 pm #
-#114 – A hell of a lot of the population has done that. Just hopefully it was serial. I shudder to even contemplate what your divorce damage would be financially with 17 wives.
- Yikes, even the thought of that……I need a shooter…..
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:02 pm #
here yah go– perfessor volkh hissef
Eugene Volokh (www):
RAH: Judges are immune from liability for their decisions, however wrong.
Bill Dyer: I appreciate your experience, and I don’t want to overstate the sharpness of the rebuke. But I expect good judicial opinions to be light on the rhetorical flourishes, and heavy on the facts and the legal analysis. I saw the sharp and detailed rebuke in the way the facts were marshaled, to highlight (with none of the rhetorical softening that sometimes happens in such opinions) just how weak the state’s evidence was, and how downright absent it was with regard to so many children.
5.22.2008 8:59pm
Extraneus (mail):
How does this ruling bear on the admissability of the DNA samples? If they were authorized and taken improperly, could they be squashed (e.g., ordered destroyed) before the state would have a chance to use them to vindicate itself?
5.22.2008 9:21pm
Oren:
Extraneus – nope. In the US, once they’ve got the samples they can use ‘em as they see fit. Same for fingerprints.
Comment by happyfeet on 5/22 @ 11:02 pm #
I’m just kind of curious how it ends.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:05 pm #
My great-great grandfathers, all 16 of them, had multiple wives.
i actually have no problem with polygamy as long as it doesnt involve the statutory rape of children.
oh, and also doesn’t involve welfare fraud.
hopefully your ancestors weren’t pedophiles.
where they?
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:08 pm #
Not anymore. Full HIPPA protections now apply to genetic information, as of Wednesday.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/22 @ 11:09 pm #
- The pedophiles get their 72 virgins, and the Republic is preserved.
(Alternate ending: Lurch finally locates that form 180, and Baracky completes a whole sentence without saying something dumb.)
Comment by Janet Reno on 5/22 @ 11:10 pm #
Polygamists! Polygamists!!
BURN THEM!!!
Comment by Janet Reno on 5/22 @ 11:13 pm #
That’s a girl nishi, grab your pitchfork and lets go
BURN THEM!!!
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 11:15 pm #
nishi
DNA like fingerprints can be gathered at arrest or with a valid search warrant. DNA can also be gathered if a person “discards” it in public and police gather it (such as tossing an empty cup in a curbside trash can).
This case may be in a grey zone. There was no criminal arrest, there was no court order and it could be argued that people did not voluntarily surrender their DNA because they were threatened with the loss of their children if they didn’t cooperate. Secondly, CPS made assurances that the DNA would be used for identification only.
THIS case is not as cut and dried as ORen might present. A defense attorney in any underage sex prosecution could easily argue for suppression or exclusion.
but never mind, nishi, you don’t respect any law you didn’t write.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:16 pm #
not in a criminal case, Pablo.
sowwy.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 11:17 pm #
nishi
then I don’t see why you have problems with Texas FLDS. MAYBE 5 cases of underage sex and no welfare fraud.
so, which side of your ass are you going to speak with next?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:18 pm #
darleen it creeps me out that you are defending the patriarchy daddies.
its yucky.
is it because you believe children are property?
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 11:18 pm #
#127 nishi
when did you get your JD and pass the bar?
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 11:19 pm #
I’m defending DUE PROCESS, asswipe.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:19 pm #
Read the fucking law, dipshit.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:20 pm #
Oh, and there is no criminal case you fucking retard.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:22 pm #
and guess wat? if there was just ONE 14yrold “sister wife” married to some guy in a fake ceremony and raped by said guy since she was underage (yes, some of the 14 and 15 year olds call each other “sister wives”), then it is still a felony.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:23 pm #
And you can forgive the man for considering the implications of the law changing, literally, the day before. Genetic information is decidedly NOT “just like fingerprints”. Not anymore.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:24 pm #
Then there is ONE felon. He’s who you go after.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 11:25 pm #
so prosecute the felony
but for the other 500 plus people, they are NOT guilty
DUE PROCESS you fucking idiot DUE PROCESS
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 11:26 pm #
then prove it in a legally acceptable manner, nishfong.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:26 pm #
i think…if this was an amermuslim compound instead of a mormon one, you wouldn’t give a rap about due process, would you darleen?
hahahaha
Comment by Mr. Puritan on 5/22 @ 11:28 pm #
Witches creep me out. That’s why I tie them to a stake and set them afire.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:28 pm #
maggie, you simp.
nifong was a prosecutor.
the judge is immune, Volkh just said so.
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 11:29 pm #
TOPIC SHIFT!
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 11:30 pm #
YOU, nishfong, have decided they are guilty just because. so suck on it.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:32 pm #
AYE!
Comment by B Moe on 5/22 @ 11:32 pm #
i think…if this was an amermuslim compound instead of a mormon one, you wouldn’t give a rap about due process, would you darleen?
Actually, that might be the only thing useful to come out of this: We can start kicking down the doors of Muslims at the first sign of anything improper, or random anonymous tips, rounding them all up and splitting up the families. Any and all of them weird beard fucking religous wackoes.
Is that someone at the door, nishi?
Comment by thor on 5/22 @ 11:33 pm #
Yeah, nishfong! (That’s a good one)
Where there’s illegality build a case – legally! – and prosecute ‘em in a court of law. One anonymous call from a 30+, convicted crank, African-American lady in Colorado pretending to be a 16-year-old white girl and 100+ mothers and 400+ children are arrested and separated. Fuckin’ bizarro. This speaks volumes concerning the IQ and complacency of certain of those in Texas’s CPS. It begs the question as to who is in charge of protecting our children from those in charge of protecting our children?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:34 pm #
“have decided they are guilty”
well no, not “they”.
likely there are some childrapists, some accomplices, and some enablers.
hopefully those entities will have to serve their debt to society.
also some innocents.
the courts can sort it out.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 11:35 pm #
nishi
there are already moslem compounds in America as guilty as FLDS right now
Why aren’t you demanding they be raided and their children seized and adopted out?
and heck, I see little moslem zombie girls in their hajibs and their hajib wearing zombie mommies all the time
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:36 pm #
Sadly, it seems there is no one. Family courts are doing a fabulous job of destroying families wholesale all across this country, every day. And the state can outlitigate you, aside from having the power of the gun.
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 11:37 pm #
judge may be immune from suit, but the county (employers of CPS and the cops that accompanied them) are not.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:37 pm #
Ah, yes. Muslim chattel. Who will jail the patriarchs?
Comment by an amermuslim compound dweller on 5/22 @ 11:37 pm #
You say you are Muslim, yes nishi? Would you care to be my wife? I have a fine harem!
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:38 pm #
Due process is supposed to come first.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:41 pm #
you guyz are seriously creepy.
have u seen warren jeffs?
one of the FLDS patriarchy daddies has 22 wives, he’s middleaged….some of the wives logged for him the record books(which the FLDS are attempting to supress as evidence) are quite young.
its the yuck factor for me.
sure, i don’t have kids….but i have middleschool aged girlcousins.
the FLDS are badwrong, obscene. it makes me queasy to think of my cousins in a situ like that…
its indefensible to me.
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 11:43 pm #
nishfong.
I mean, have you seen those well off lacrosse players?
Comment by Darleen on 5/22 @ 11:44 pm #
its the yuck factor for me
Then don’t join
I happen to think being a moslem is pretty creepy, so I won’t be attending any mosque anytime soon.
YMMV
Comment by B Moe on 5/22 @ 11:44 pm #
you guyz are seriously creepy.
And you are seriously stupid. When the topic changes in the next thread, we won’t be creepy anymore.
(h/t Winston Churchill)
Comment by Hugh Hefner on 5/22 @ 11:45 pm #
Geez nishi, take it easy on a guy, would you?
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:46 pm #
Like a lot of muslims. Aisha was, what, six, when Muhammed married her? Six.
Fuck off, nishi.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:46 pm #
darleen if there are muslim compounds that practice childrape i am all for them being busted.
im not actually aware of any.
it seems like that would be a big news scoop if there was one.
and…this is federalism, too.
Texas obviously wants to get rid of the polygs. read the laws against underage marriage.
Texas has been investigating the YFZ for four years.
doesn’t Texas have a right to prosecute them for criminal activity?
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:47 pm #
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is his prophet.
You said that, right nishi? And the difference between him and Warren Jeffs is?
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/22 @ 11:47 pm #
DON’T LIKE POLYGAMOUS MARRIAGE? DON’T HAVE FIVE!!
lulz
Comment by B Moe on 5/22 @ 11:48 pm #
Robert Spencer made all that shit up, Pablo. Shame on you.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:49 pm #
That’s not what they’re doing. Idiot.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:49 pm #
Sandwichboard chick!
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:50 pm #
gee pablum, that was wat, 700 years ago?
social mores and taboos were a bit different then. lots of arranged marriages were made back then, and not consumated until puberty. the french and english royals, the hapsburgs, etc.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:52 pm #
Six, you silly twat. Your prophet was a child rapist. He was fucking Aisha at nine. And he’s different from Warren Jeffs how?
Comment by B Moe on 5/22 @ 11:52 pm #
I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that nishi is a libertarian. It is easy to forget that sometimes.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:53 pm #
We’re talking about Prophets here. YFZ’s and YOURS.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:54 pm #
Actually, it seems Warren likes ‘em a little older than nine.
Comment by B Moe on 5/22 @ 11:54 pm #
YFZ are newer. NEW! and IMPROVED! prophets.
nishi likes them old ppl prophets. lulz.
Comment by Pablo on 5/22 @ 11:55 pm #
A real student of history here, ain’t she? Truly, you’re too stupid too play here.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/22 @ 11:58 pm #
well one difference is that Muhammed had nine wives and jeffs has 80.
also there is the matter of 700 years.
gee, it doesn’t really matter, does it?
it is all politics.
FLDS is a right side issue so u hafta defend the patriarchy daddies.
duke lacrosse, the left had to defend nifong.
its all politics, its all politcal.
its just proxy wars.
none of it has any real meaning.
Comment by cynn on 5/22 @ 11:59 pm #
Jhoward: #43 sorry for the delay. Don’t come here in August. Just FTU.
Comment by an amermuslim compound dweller on 5/23 @ 12:00 am #
Please nishi, I am so happy you delineate Polygamous arrangements and child rape. We here, each and every one, is married only in strict accordance with Federal and State laws.
Not that it’s easy to know, am I right? Burkas are not as revealing as you might think, if you get what I’m saying. *wink*wink*
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/23 @ 12:04 am #
in a true libertarian state children would have citizen rights at birth, and not be property.
/shrug
i’ve had enough.
you old people are seriously creepy.
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/23 @ 12:04 am #
if you’re an idiot willing to give up your rights.
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/23 @ 12:06 am #
gawd you’re stupid.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/23 @ 12:06 am #
shorter pablo: Muhammed fucked Aisha at nine 600 years ago so it is fine for the FLDS patriarchy daddies to fuck little girls now.
Comment by B Moe on 5/23 @ 12:06 am #
none of it has any real meaning.
If you are an idiot.
Fixed that for you, Maggie.
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 12:09 am #
No. Shorter Pablo goes like this: nishi is a screaming hypocrite who follows a child rapist prophet while denigrating others who do the same. And Muhammed has been dead for nearly 1400 years, retard.
I’m not blessing FLDS, nitwit. I’m damning YOU. You’re worse than they are, and they’re pretty bad.
Comment by B Moe on 5/23 @ 12:10 am #
This is really too much. A Muslim who has no fucking clue when Mohammed founded the religion, and a Libertarian with no concept of due process, probable cause, or individual rights. I don’t doubt that very little has any real meaning to you princess, beyond your clothes closet or iPod, anyway.
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/23 @ 12:10 am #
shorter nishfong: i r dum
Comment by Challeron on 5/23 @ 12:13 am #
Can we please create “a true libertarian state” somewhere, and stick nishi in it?
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 12:16 am #
And yet Obama thinks that if you miss them in a partial birth abortion, you should be able to kill them anyway.
O!
Comment by Ric Locke on 5/23 @ 12:18 am #
Yeah, they can prosecute ‘em. And if they convict ‘em they can make them cry and eat sand out of the road. But first they have to gather evidence and testimony and try ‘em.
Which Texas CPS most decidedly does not believe applies to them. One of the major impulses toward homeschooling around here is to keep the moppets out of the clutches of school “counselors”. Kid trips and falls on the way to school, and by lunchtime the fo$$$ter home is all arranged and Dad’s in jail for child abuse. No such thing as “innocent”, either — once on the list, a parking ticket means off to the county lockup in handcuffs for the rest of your life. The trick Darleen mentioned above — one kid fo$$tered in Texarkana, the other in Big Spring, and daddy (who makes $9.50 an hour and lives in Victoria) doesn’t visit ‘em often enough so clearly he doesn’t care about ‘em and the State can fo$$ter them out.
I’ve no brief for the FLDS. If they broke the law, hang ‘em and leave ‘em twist in the breeze. But I hope — probably in vain — that that judge does the same for the CPS
assholeshemorrhoids. When one busybiddy school nurse can fuck up a whole family for the rest of their lives, with no restraint, no process, and no possibility of clearing it up once started, it does not remotely resemble what I think the Founders had in mind.Regards,
Ric
Comment by B Moe on 5/23 @ 12:27 am #
in a true libertarian state children would have citizen rights at birth,
Would that include habeas corpus, nishfong?
and not be property.
So anybody wanting to buy or sell some children better do it quick, huh?
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 12:30 am #
And when you see 450 of them there for the taking, you’d better harvest that crop immediately.
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/23 @ 12:30 am #
hey, Ric, you live kinda out west Texas way, don’t you? I’m just sayin’…
Comment by Ric Locke on 5/23 @ 12:43 am #
Yeah, kinda, Maggie.
Neighbor’s kid fell off a horse and got dragged in the stirrup. Five years later her parents got to see her again. F* that shit.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by The Lost Dog on 5/23 @ 12:46 am #
“Child protective services” are the Gestapo of this country. They can do ANYTHING they want to, and are basically immune to oversight. I applaud this judge for calling these Nazi’s to task, even if they were right. I HATE people who think that the state is a better parent than a child’s biological parents. If there is rape, incest, or whatever, PROVE IT, YOU NAZI MOTHERFUCKERS!
I have talked about my wife being a fifty year old twelve year old before, and she did something really stupid last summer. Not that insane, but DCF (which is what they call these Nazis in Connecticut), was all over us for about three or four months. My wife was not allowed to be alone with our son for that whole time. Guess how much money I made during that time?
Anyone else who acted like these intrusive assholes would be serving two to four years in jail. I don’t know what the real story is in Texas, but I certainly know what our story is in Connecticut. The little fuck that was in charge of this absolutely STUPID brouhaha just couldn’t contain himself from covering our lives with total terror. He threatened to take our child daily. He had no right to, but before we got a lawyer, he insisted that he had the right to come into our house and “inspect” it (False). He scared my sons teacher so much, that she put in a complaint six months after the “so called” complaint happened. Even the investigator who checked it out said that it was insane to get a complaint on the “hot line” six months after some supposed infraction had happened. I may have some issues with my wife, but she is a great mom to our son, and this little asshole went in and scared his teacher into filing a complaint, to “save her job”.
And, funny thing! This complaint came in one day after this little piece of shit visited my son’s teacher. I hate this little motherfucker, and if I ever see him again, will spit in his lying little piece of shit face. NAZI. That’s exact;y who this scum is. I have never hit anybody in my life, but I would LOVE to cold cock this little bastard.
Yeah. My wife screwed up, but what they did was so out of proportion to what she did, I still can’t believe it. Our son was NOT EVER in any danger, but these fucking Nazi’s were ready to put him in a group “home” in the lowest, shittiest city in CT, regardless of what it would do to him emotionally.
I HATE THESE FUCKING NAZI FUCKS!!
We finally had to get the head of DCF to come to our hearing and say: “Stop”. I may be rumpled, but it’s nice to have good friends who can pull the levers of power.
And after everything was dismissed, this stupid little fuck was STILL showing up at our house and asking to come in! Yeah. Right. You little fucking Nazi. Iy was all I cou8ld do to not knock his fucking nose throught the back of his head.
Shit! I had a great night playing music tonight, until I saw this post, I was quite happy.
If you ever have trouble with these little Nazi fucks, remember this.
You don’t have to say ANYTHING to them, NEVER let them into your house, and get a lawyer IMMEDIATELY!!
THEY ARE THE FUCKING GESTAPO!
If I sound a little pissed, it’s because I am! This is supposed to be “America”, but if your child falls down the stairs, be prepared to be treated like a criminal for three or four hours, and being accused of THROWING them down the stairs.
Jesus Christ! What the fuck has happened to this country?
What nightmare did these fucking idiots come from?
Sorry. This post just set me off. Sorry, but living through a four month nightmare with stupid little Nazi fucks scaring the shit out of you is not something easily forgotten – or forgiven…
Comment by maggie katzen on 5/23 @ 1:01 am #
I was lamely trying to insinuate you live on a compound with 20 underaged “wives”. maybe I’m tired.
Comment by Rusty on 5/23 @ 5:08 am #
When you take nishi’s dark cloud of irrelevance out of the thread it’s really quite enlightening.
This is sounding more and more like Waco, but without the gunfire.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 5:43 am #
Darleen, re number 12:
So when do we yank the children from the Amish? Jehovah’s Witness? Pentacostals? Scientologists?
Or should we just, you know, make it a criminal offense to teach anyone under 18 any religious beliefs?
whenever the Scientologists, or Lavtivian Tiddlywink worshippers, or penetocostals. have a“pervasive system of belief†condoning polygamy and underage females having children.†and it is also the widespread practice.
If girls in that “belief system” were ordered to handle rattlers at their coming out,
I don’t think it’s beyond the pale to take them out before they touch a snake.
I feel like a South Park cartoon saying : DUDE! It’s polygamy. It’s forced “spriitual marriage”
and pregnancy and childbirth so young that it’s prior to physical readiness and at great risk to those young girls. I bet the obstetric morbidity is through the moon.
Its a fair cop that I think these “beliefs” should not be tolerated.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 5:47 am #
Dammit. Missed a tag. (italics should close before “whenever”.
—————
That’s unreadable enough to post again”
So when do we yank the children from the Amish? Jehovah’s Witness? Pentacostals? Scientologists?
Or should we just, you know, make it a criminal offense to teach anyone under 18 any religious beliefs?
Whenever the Scientologists, or Lavtivian Tiddlywink worshippers, or penetocostals. have a“pervasive system of belief†condoning polygamy and underage females having children.†and it is also the widespread practice, and the girls have no other means of shaking off the grooming for sexual abuse.
If girls in that “belief system†were ordered to handle rattlers at their coming out,
I don’t think it’s beyond the pale to take them out before they touch a snake.
I feel like a South Park cartoon saying: DUDE! It’s polygamy. It’s forced “spriitual marriageâ€Â
and pregnancy and childbirth so young that it’s prior to physical readiness and at great risk to those young girls. ( I bet the obstetric morbidity is through the moon.)
Its a fair cop that I think these “beliefs†should not be tolerated.
Comment by Carin- on 5/23 @ 5:59 am #
Sarah – I agree, but then I guess they shouldn’t have fucked it up so badly.
And, looking at it from a different angle- are these girls/children any worse off that those living in the hood of Detroit? Is their future worse than a 24% graduation rate?
I feel Teh Outrage regarding these kids, but certainly -statistically speaking – there are far more kids trapped in far worse situations. We just can’t wrap them up in a pretty little “Isn’t-FDLS-Ugly-Bow.”
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/23 @ 6:13 am #
- Continuing last nights discussion, sans the overwrought reaxtions that people feel, rightly so in the majority of cases, I still seek to seperate the question of whether each and every one of the family services should be revamped from floor to ceiling as a seperate question from the potential/real abuses of sects of this type.
- I think both problems can be addressed effectively.
- One poster brought up the “individual” case question. Its a scam. They are, in the FLDS case, effectively one case, one family, and anyone who knowingly aids and abets such behavior is an accessory.
- For instance, I think the three pieces of shit that sat around that trailor for days knowing what that crazy old fuck was doing down in Florida should have been tried on accessory charges.
- Dismantling the Gestapo operations of child services can be done without allowing pedophiles to walk.
- The fact remains our legal system, even were it properly applied, is poorly equipped to deal with cults of this nature. That is precisely why they organize the way they do.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 5/23 @ 6:18 am #
“#
Comment by Challeron on 5/23 @ 12:13 am #
Can we please create “a true libertarian state†somewhere, and stick nishi in it?”
And can call it “Coventry”
Comment by Ric Locke on 5/23 @ 7:08 am #
Well, sure, BBH. In theory, at least, it isn’t even hard.
Warrants, issued “…upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.” Investigations, recognizing the rules of evidence. Speedy and public trials, their conduct based on presumption of innocence and the rules of evidence. You know, due process of law.
Louis L’Amour characters are fond of observing that “there’s no stopping a man who knows he’s in the right and keeps on coming.” That’s pretty much true, but if you can’t figure out what’s wrong with it you have no business within hearing distance of American jurisprudence. Every abuse of State power that has ever occurred has been perpetrated by people who knew, with every fiber of their being and soul, that they were punishing the unrighteous. It’s fun and self-exculpatory to name them villains ex post facto, but the priests of the Inquisition, the guards at Bergen-Belsen, the NKVD at Katyn Forest, and Pol Pot’s malicious children were operating from the same burning conviction of righteousness the asshole Lost Dog describes feels, and kept on coming.
It is what makes nishi such an idiot — the burning conviction that some way, some how, the content of a particular ideology is overriding; that being in the right about the subject, acting for the children or to help the poor, excuses the actor from all restrictions on behavior. In point of actual fact there is no usable distinction between nishi’s absolute conviction that “xians” must be disenfranchised and the FLDS’s equally absolute certainty that their doctrine is correct.
And the deep, fundamental problem is — once you hand the Righteous the Sword of the State, it becomes an irresistable magnet for those who do not in fact hold such conviction, but are perfectly capable of claiming to credibly because they hold, with equal certainty, the belief that they ought to be in charge. If you aren’t suspicious of such people’s motives even, or especially, when you agree with them on doctrine, you leave yourself wide open to participating in horrid abuses.
And of course I’m absolutely correct about all that.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by thor on 5/23 @ 7:14 am #
Do what’s right, cynn, and purchase their lost moo-moo’d Souls.
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 7:28 am #
Sarah
We don’t jail people for beliefs. Period. Otherwise we should be yanking kids from all parents who are career criminals and gangbangers because they foster in their children a belief that the law is just for chumps.
BBH
They are, in the FLDS case, effectively one case, one family, and anyone who knowingly aids and abets such behavior is an accessory.
“Effectively” is not good enough. If you know your cousin next door is cooking meth in his garage the law doesn’t compel you to turn him in. You are an scumbag for not doing it, but you aren’t a criminal. And if the police bust your cousin, they can’t bust you, you wife, yank your kids and jail your grandparents just because you knew or had suspicions and didn’t tell.
Comment by Smirky McChimp on 5/23 @ 7:36 am #
Um, would it be a relatively easy case to make that a polygamous Mormon sect was engaging in polygamy? That is still illegal, right?
Sound to me like CPS came in because the criminal charges of child marriage (and therefore rape) were hard to make. Family law and CPS seem to operate in a Constitution-free zone where inference becomes evidence and due process subservient to social goals.
How does a socially tolerant state enforce its mores? With a lot of shouting and little action.
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 7:38 am #
Sarah
BTW, what with the lies about underage pregnancy and sex at this particular FLDS ranch being exposed, it looks like the actual teen pregnancy rate is no higher than what might be found amoung any other group of teen girls.
So, when do we start doing pregnancy tests on all teen girls in school and making all the sexually active girls 16 and under, especially the ones into hip-hop (talk about a pervasive belief system in underage sex) wards of the court?
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 7:40 am #
McChimp
Polygamy is only illegal if you have applied for a license with the state for marrying more than one person. Living as married sans license (kinda like shacking up) doesn’t count.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/23 @ 7:48 am #
#201 – So when its suits their purposes they are a “compound”. a contiguous “family”, but when the run afoul of the law they are individuals. Whats wrong with this picture.
- But then thats why I contend our legal structure is ill equipped to deal with this sort of issue, and they know that, and act accordingly.
Comment by JD on 5/23 @ 7:51 am #
As Zelda pointed out, so well in another thread, cult and cultish type groups really test our system, and the balance between our rights, liberties, and the law. In these situations, there are no easy answers.
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 8:07 am #
BBH
They can call where they live the Third Ring of Saturn, but having a bunch of land and a group of people who make their own homes on the communally owned land doesn’t legally make them ONE HOUSEHOLD, any more than kibbutz or your run of the mill HOA.
JD
When there are no “easy answers” then the first thing you do is stick with the Constitution and due process. It appears that all the allegations leveled at the Texas FLDS, from welfare fraud to systemic child rape are bogus … and THAT destroys any credibility that the CPS ever had. It makes prosecuting REAL child abuse much harder in the future.
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 8:08 am #
JD
It’s like what Nifong did for the prosecution of real rape.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/23 @ 8:38 am #
-“….It makes prosecuting REAL child abuse much harder in the future.”
- While that is unfortunate, and obviously the case, it remains a question as to whether or not our system can, in fact, protect the rights of children in such a setting, even were it applied properly, and quite aside from the societal amd moral questions of if we should even try.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 5/23 @ 8:43 am #
And they want to take over our health care.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 8:58 am #
That’s unintelligible, cynn.
BBH, I’m afraid you still conflict yourself vis a vis revamping an agency — actually a unaccountable fourth branch of govt — that operates well outside of any respect of rights. The combination of anti-constitutionality, lack of internal or other governmental restraint (except in the almost impossibly rare case of a court reversal) and the public’s inability to prosecute them either civilly for damages or criminally for false imprisonment, is simply lethal to every foundational principle that makes up our system of self-government.
I’ve been increasingly frustrated lately by the boiling frog that even the right refuses to see: There is a massive disconnect between bedrock conservative principle and Republican-era Orwellian socialism. I do believe that the US is significantly more socialist than Europe, and cases like this, which extend in reasoning and effect and means and ends through to an entire multi-billion dollar family court system, extend through to borderline thought and speech policing, and extend through to public education, medicine, and all related policy, it’s utterly clear that we are, indeed, significantly more socialist than Socialist Europe.
And we do it with Pubbies at the helm, crying for stringing folks up because they broke the law, in this case and for the tenth time, laws made specifically to befoul a particular type of religion. So, kindly don’t give me that rubbish about polygamy or about systemic child rape or about these folks even being creepy. Why? As has been noted too few times apparently, because that same socialist system of State education, medicine, social policy, the social court system, and on and on has produced a social cancer that’s simply feeding on itself as it propagates and self-perpetuates across the land.
We are, folks, now facing a majority of the mob of democracy literally seeing govt as a service, as a moral compass, as a budgeteer, as a guide, master, superior, and leader. But it is not. It is incompetent and it has no right.
The frustrating part about writing about this — I started a modest series at Jeff’s pw called Eve of Dependency — is that you cannot transfer perspective. You cannot say, hey, where did we all get the idea govt had anything whatsoever to do with managing our lives in any way, shape, or form? We are so ingrained to see govt as a provider of good things like protection, that we cannot see it as being inherently unable to so much as attempt to do anything of the sort.
So, how would we reform govt when it’s us who have Frankensteined it from a minimalist guardian of basic Rights to the agency we insist do our job of living for us?
Government cannot protect you. Government may not be seen or used as an enforcer of morality, codes of behavior, standards, mores, guidelines, or however you want to define life when govt veers much outside of terribly basic things. I’d even argue that govt may not be involved in the force component of law enforcement — argue a strong case against private police and only then should any of us even consider a public force.
And so on and so on. The point I’d try and make is that we should try to see our entire system of government not for the saturating, out-of-control nanny that it clearly is, but first as being virtually nonexistent — run the mental experiment on no domestic government except courts of true peers and servants before you lay on so much as a single law. Then lay those laws on very, very carefully, inspecting each and every one for any chance that it’ll impair a single right. Remember that today we legislate everything, and we typically do so because somebody with a profit to make, an ideology to perpetuate, or a whim to satiate bought the thing.
So what happens when the private sector is inherently responsible for itself, because that’s what it was a couple hundred years and a few decades ago. And when so, what happens to our perspectives when we start piling on, in the case of Child Protective Services, for crying out loud, a statist agency that consumes over nine trillion dollars a year busting down our families and our doors for our own good. Do the questions start happening then?
State education. State medicine. State salvation via an O! presidency. State property, speech, behavior, and on and on and on. How exactly did we think this was going to end? And why would we get up on our back legs about it only when the grossest of travesties occur?
For The Childrenism ends, should it not, when the State government takes ownership of actual living breathing human beings. Or when the federal government schemes a way to burn citizen children alive.
At least remember Waco. But I’ll lay good money we will not.
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 8:59 am #
The easy answer is that in the absence of clear evidence of wrongdoing, the state should leave people the hell alone.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 9:03 am #
Oh, and CPS doesn’t consume $9T. The DHHS does. Effectively, it is our God.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 9:04 am #
We might not jail people for beliefs, Darleen, but that isn’t the same thing as jailing them for their pervasive practice, nor the same thing as removing minors from pernicious influence of a belief system which poses intrinsic risks to their health and welfare, and is contrary to the public’s right to enforce any codes of behaviour with regard to sex and marriage.
Where one draws the line on the latter seems to be a hot button of contention.
I am not ascribing these excuses for it to YOU, but I think sympathy for the plight of FDLS springs up along this line of thought…. not only ( what I assert is a false separation of) those “thought space” beliefs from practice, but also that the beliefs as practices are not intrinsically harmful and appallling; and are what some others do anyway with less persecution ( because they do it without a code of moral practice behind it.) To wit:
Well look at them. They have such healthy skin. They are active and fit. Clean living!
And see, it’s not so bad, not so appallling , these “spiritual marriages” of young girls. After all, Texas law permits minor girls to have sex when legally married.
Arranged marriages aren’t illegal, either… And I don’t see anyone stomping away with the babies of slack ho’s in the projects. We give them money! At lease these people work and pay their own way, and don’t force anyone outside the community to join, blah blah blah.
I say, NO. That’s IT polygamy NO. Coersion into Child brideyness/motherhood NO. If only to protect my own community standard of “there can only be one”.
I hate to admit the vehemence of my oppostition to permitting this practice in adults, let alone subjection of children to it, ( whether as offspring who just have to live that way, or as future sacrifices to the sexual practices), If this were 1852, and I were a man, I’d saddle up Ric Locke enemy of freedom style and bust their community to flinders.
(Of course, I am nowhere near Texas, this is not 1852, I am not a man, I and I feel obligated to submit to rule of law, and don’t approve of mob violence of any sort. I just think its incumbent upon the state to take girls out of there before they are forced to “fake” marry some man and produce children for him like some sort of subservient beast).
I will draw absolutes, and I do. I’ve been accused of libertarian leanings, but I part ways when it comes to family structure and involvement of the state. I think it IS a compelling state interest to limit marriage and circumscribe permitted sexual relationships, and to discourage with law any others.
I confess my bias. I draw a bright line at polygamy, coerced sexual relationships of girls, and all that leads to for those girls.
If I had my way, I’d return some penalties for cohabitation as man and wife without legal marriage.
So there is my bigotry on display. It does color my view of the courts rulings.
FWIW, I think the ruling about the “single household” premise being bogus, was wrongheaded and naive. I think that it must have been poorly argued, because I think a compelling argument could have been made.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 9:05 am #
The question is what level of wrongdoing, Pablo. And already the slippery slope gets well lubricated by its statist managers.
Comment by Ric Locke on 5/23 @ 9:05 am #
No, Pablo, that’s BOMFOG.
The question is the definition of “wrongdoing”. Granting the power of definition to the Righteous is what causes the problem.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 9:12 am #
I shall rephrase: In the absence of clear evidence of criminality…
Granted, there will still be points in which that sucks, but we should be using the term as we’ve defined it in the law.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 9:13 am #
The public’s right? What right is that, save sheer majority.
So, they are exactly the same thing, SarahW, because they all involve only one threshold. That threshold pertains to the definitions of pervasive, pernicious, intrinsic, and a hundred other terms. Exactly what Ric said in #215. We choose our poison every time we enact a single law. It’s inherent to civilization and always shall be.
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 9:16 am #
So when do we clean out the ‘hood? That would save more children and create a greater benefit to society than busting up a kooky cult will ever do. The underage pregnancy and fatherlessness numbers are staggering.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 9:16 am #
No prob, Pablo, but even that doesn’t change the question. Criminality needs a definition too, one that cannot result in breaches of rights when we’re pursuing prosecutions.
I realize I argue what appears to be a sophistry. But I’m genuinely asking what may government do that does not, by way of it doing it, violate my prior rights
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - unrelenting mouth-breather apprentice on 5/23 @ 9:18 am #
SarahW, what’s your take on this hypothetical?
Ms. E.Z. Roundheels, a single mother of three, has lots of “boyfriends”, who in turn have lots of other “girlfriends”. She rarely stays with the same man for more than 6 months at a time.
Should her kids be taken away?
If not, why is this different from polygamy?
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 9:24 am #
That will and should ultimately rest with a jury of one’s peers, as the facts of any of a million factors that might go into a specific situation can never be predicted in any written law. But we have laws we can read and unless there is clear evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed, then the state ought to butt out. Probable cause, due process and the like.
Should be, not is, and therein lies the problem.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 9:27 am #
Prostitution is legal in much of the state of Nevada (it is not legal within Vegas or Reno city limits.) Prostitution is illegal most other places in the land.
Have the voters in Nevada, acting through their legislature, written an inferior or a superior morality into their books?
Laws are imposed. Rights condition laws, or at least they used to. Given Spies illustration in #221, by what principle and by what authority would we make so much as a single law.
We assume government exists to do certain things. But we mostly cannot define how or why or by what standard it should do certain things. Aside from the force of a majority, that is. Which is to say, we are subjecting reason to desire or whim or preconception.
Unless it’s either enumerated in the affirmative or denied, it’s not a right. So by what right may society impose anything acted by the State on another of its members?
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 9:32 am #
Not so incidentally, given the street-level social conditions in Reno and Vegas versus those in the rest of the state, the irony of the “morality” of laws against prostitution in those two burgs is heightened. Now amplify that phenomenon by literally millions as you range about, thoroughly inspecting lawbooks in all states and Washington DC.
Do we really understand the making of laws? Do we know why Texas, for example, has its concerning families, ages of consent, marriage, et al?
Comment by B Moe on 5/23 @ 9:33 am #
So by what right may society impose anything acted by the State on another of its members?
The standard libertarian/individualist answer is that government primary function is to protect ones person and property against force and fraud. That would apply to children, also, I would assume, in which case there were possible infractions here. But many more were perpetrated by the state in their ham-handed attempts to establish that.
Comment by SarahW's mean-bean streak on 5/23 @ 9:45 am #
SarahW, what’s your take on this hypothetical?
Ms. E.Z. Roundheels, a single mother of three, has lots of “boyfriendsâ€Â, who in turn have lots of other “girlfriendsâ€Â. She rarely stays with the same man for more than 6 months at a time.
Should her kids be taken away?
If not, why is this different from polygamy?
———————
Spies, here I go: without extenuation of circumstance, heck yeah I think her children should be placed in a stable home, preferably one with a biologial tie to the children. Society seems to have given up much interest in dealing with rabble-ious behaviour. Yet I suppose it could be distinguished from a working community set up around polygamy in a variety of ways, including the notion that the latter attempt to systematically supplant a (for my lack of a better term) now existing framework of society with another, the slack lady is just sort of chaotically lurching around with her womb.
Comment by SarahW's mean-bean streak on 5/23 @ 9:48 am #
Jhoward – “definitions of pervasive, pernicious, intrinsic”
I absolutely concede my argument containts assumptions about those words.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 9:48 am #
And also contains them.
Comment by MayBee on 5/23 @ 9:52 am #
containts is good, sarahw.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/23 @ 9:55 am #
-“BBH, I’m afraid you still conflict yourself vis a vis revamping an agency…”
- To which I must respond with all due respect, you simply are not reading my comments, or not understanding what I’ve said.
- I have roundly condemned the family service gestapo across the board, and merely tried to separate the issues I see inherent in this sorry episode by asking a straightforward question.
- It would seem that some of us would rather veer back toward “you’re not bashing the damned fascist government orgs enough” rather than tackle that question. Its basic. “Can we protect children’s rights in cultist settings”. Yes, or no. Assume we do all the things demanded of the laws as written.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - unrelenting mouth-breather apprentice on 5/23 @ 9:55 am #
heck yeah I think her children should be placed in a stable home, preferably one with a biologial tie to the children.
Okay. But that’s not what the law says, is it?
Comment by SGT Ted on 5/23 @ 9:56 am #
The massive herd of pachyderms trampling the flowerbeds and shitting on the rugs in this whole mess is the absolute acceptance and tolerance of underaged girls being impregnated by adult men as long as they wear modern clothing and use Planned Parenthood and Government social services.
But throw in an alleged cult, and well, time to get the rope!
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - unrelenting mouth-breather apprentice on 5/23 @ 9:59 am #
But throw in an alleged cult, and well, time to get the rope!
Exactly.
Dress like the Ingalls family, get your kids taken away. Dress like Lindsay Lohan, get an extra ration of food stamps.
Comment by Carin -BONC on 5/23 @ 9:59 am #
We might not jail people for beliefs, Darleen, but that isn’t the same thing as jailing them for their pervasive practice, nor the same thing as removing minors from pernicious influence of a belief system which poses intrinsic risks to their health and welfare, and is contrary to the public’s right to enforce any codes of behaviour with regard to sex and marriage.
So when do we clean out the ‘hood? That would save more children and create a greater benefit to society than busting up a kooky cult will ever do. The underage pregnancy and fatherlessness numbers are staggering.
That was the same point I was kinda trying to make way up there. I think what bothers many about this case is that girls are trapped. First as minors, then by the psychological influences of their religion. But, I would argue that girlz-in-the-hood face exactly the same thing. To grow up with traditional morals, dedication to getting ahead – etc – may be every bit as difficult as breaking out of a cult. And, certainly society is affected a hell of a lot more by THAT than by sects of FLDS.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 10:04 am #
By the State? And what constitutes “stable”?
(And not to beat a dead horse, but do you think this happens in the aftermath of family custody court in the case of a simple divorce-with-acrimony?)
Comment by B Moe on 5/23 @ 10:06 am #
…as long as they wear modern clothing and use Planned Parenthood and Government social services.
It also seems to help if they are darker skinned, other than Move in Philly, all of the raids I can think of have been against very pale people. More soft bigotry of low expectations?
Comment by MayBee on 5/23 @ 10:07 am #
And, certainly society is affected a hell of a lot more by THAT than by sects of FLDS.
The cult is just so much easier for CPS to focus on.
The outliers always are.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 10:08 am #
BBH, I apologize for misreading this:
“- Continuing last nights discussion, sans the overwrought reaxtions that people feel, rightly so in the majority of cases, I still seek to seperate the question of whether each and every one of the family services should be revamped from floor to ceiling as a seperate question from the potential/real abuses of sects of this type.”
Of course, like the great majority of family law, CPS should be abolished.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/23 @ 10:12 am #
#235 – From personal experience JH, I can tell you the first thing the court does is show the litigants in a custody hearing a video that teaches them the fine points of using the children as a weapon against their estranged other.
- After the psychological testing/advising, parenting classes, personal interviews, financial and household disclosure and examination, and the color socks you wear, the judge calls everyone together and decides based on whomever he likes the most.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/23 @ 10:14 am #
#238 – Agreed. I worded that badly as if to say such a revamping is at question. Obviously it is not. But still I submit there are more issues at work here than simply the rank unconstitutionality and actions of nationwide family services.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 10:16 am #
The parallels are uncanny, BBH…excepting that in the case of FLDS cultist weirdos with a certain percentage of presumed actual crimes having been committed against minors, we actually have serious legal offenses occurring. The parallels are only as uncanny as the contrasts are mindblowing — family court is the national version of Texas CPS and it runs all day long, everyplace, just to enrich gender feminists and trial lawyers.
SOCIAL GOVERNMENT! IT WORKETH! O!
Comment by Carin -BONC on 5/23 @ 10:19 am #
The cult is just so much easier for CPS to focus on.
The outliers always are.
I suppose the dealo is – CPS cannot solve either problem. And, by concentrating our (the medias, mostly) outrage on FDLS kinda misses the point. How much fun did the View have in making fun of the female members of the cult? Would they do the same with an inner-city hoochie momma with five kids by five different men?
But, the “criminality” (or, more accurately, the morality) level of both situations is exactly the same.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 10:22 am #
I devide FLDS sympathizers in this situation into two rough categories –
those who have decided the practices are creepy to them personally, but not criminal or dangerous enough to warrant removing the children, really even if the general practice of coerced early marriage of minors, is just as alleged.
Then there are the ones who say, hey government, these facts about that group are pretty terrible if true. But NO CHEATING. If you can do that to them, what could you assrt the right to do to ME. Even though I’m not a polygamist.
I sort of think the “imminent danger” call is a judgment call and has to account for a conspiring groups willingness and ability to lie and cover-up wrongdoing.
Warnings may only help them hide wrongdoers, hie away to safer venues, burn records, change seating charts.
The court said you should have tried lesser interventions, first. You should have had stronger evidence, not simply high suspicion based on observations and speculations.
My own personal bias against the practice of polygamy, and polygamy cults, is high. I have to concede the intellectual danger of that. Still in this case I do not see the removal of those children as persecution, but a poorly executed obligation.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 10:28 am #
I divide FLDS sympathizers in this situation into two rough categories –
*Those who have decided the practices are creepy to them personally, but not criminal or dangerous enough to warrant removing the children, really even if the general practice of coerced early marriage of minors, is just as alleged.
*Then there are the ones who say, hey government, these facts about that group are pretty terrible if true. But NO CHEATING. If you can do that to them, what could you assrt the right to do to ME. Even though I’m not a polygamist.
I sort of think the “imminent danger” call is a judgment call and has to always take into account a conspiring groups willingness and ability to lie and cover-up wrongdoing.
Warnings may only help them hide wrongdoers, hie away to safer venues, burn records, change seating charts.
The court said you should have tried lesser interventions, first. Given us better proof. I’m sorry the court found these things wanting.
My own personal bias against the practice of polygamy, and polygamy cults, is high. I have to concede the intellectual danger of that. Still in this case I do not see the removal of those children as persecution, but a poorly executed obligation.
Comment by Smirky McChimp on 5/23 @ 10:29 am #
Hmmm…if what Darleen said about polygamy laws is true, then there’s already a de facto legalization for polygamy, provided you do not offically “marry” any of your other wives.
One thinks this could be combatted, say, with a law against “concubinage” or some such, but then I foresee much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. But I’m not much of a libertarian, so that doesn’t bother me.
Comment by MayBee on 5/23 @ 10:29 am #
This
is the kind of thing I’m thinking about.
CPS people want to help, and they are overwhelmed. So they focus on the things that aren’t insurmountable. Often to ill effect.
I have no brief for FDLS, but the idea that it isn’t harmful to mistakenly remove children from their parents is a bad one.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 10:29 am #
You can ignore 243. I guess 244 as well, but if you are going to read one of those duplo posts, read 244
Comment by B Moe on 5/23 @ 10:32 am #
I am having a really hard time reconciling the Sarah that considered a store manager asking to inspect her bags an outrageous infringement on ones rights with the one on this thread who thinks the confiscation and confinement of over 400 children without due process, some as old as 27, is a necessary evil.
Comment by MayBee on 5/23 @ 10:33 am #
One thinks this could be combatted, say, with a law against “concubinage†or some such, but then I foresee much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth
Many municipalities have made it illegal for a certain number of legally unrelated people to live under one roof. Those laws get trashed when an unmarried man and woman and her children try to buy a house in an area with such laws in place. Then it’s all about discrimination against the “modern family”.
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 10:33 am #
The thing is, Sarah, that there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of that actually happening here. Their count of minor mothers seems to be dropping by the minute and the case is evaporating. Adults, up to 27, have been classified as minors, despite their ID showing their true age. Minor who are not mothers and are not pregnant have been listed as such. All of the “disputed” adults who’ve had their cases heard thus far have prevailed.
I’d have much less of a problem with this if they actually had a case, but it appears that they do not. Which means that they’ve deeply traumatized 400+ children in order to go fishing and to exercise emotional violence and unfettered Constitutional abuses upon those they seek to have see things their way.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/23 @ 10:36 am #
- Maybe. Please. Don’t get us started on the unconstitutionality of municipal ordinances, We’ll all blow out a tennis shoe.
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 10:40 am #
CPS people may just want power. Put in the form of a question; what about when social government power, as is frequently the case, is clearly established and used to a desired socio-political and/or fiscal effect? See again much of juvenile custody law.
Isn’t the problem then a system that allows and encourages such conflicts of interest at the legislative level? Somebody recently said that laws were created to create criminals. It seems many (most?) are.
But fear ye not: O!
Comment by JHoward on 5/23 @ 10:45 am #
But one sterling example of law trumping rights. And legislatures (and municipalities) utterly failing in their primary, mandate which is — or must be if we’re to survive — protecting property and rights. I mean, that’s just Soviet.
Comment by B Moe on 5/23 @ 10:50 am #
CPS people may just want power.
Some obviously do, mostly I think they just want job security. The more problems they find/create, the more important and essential their job seems.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 10:52 am #
The thing is, Sarah, that there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of that actually happening here. Their count of minor mothers seems to be dropping by the minute and the case is evaporating. Adults, up to 27, have been classified as minors, despite their ID showing their true age. Minor who are not mothers and are not pregnant have been listed as such. All of the “disputed†adults who’ve had their cases heard thus far have prevailed”
At minimum, early dissembling on the part of the women to give false names and ages and family relationships, warranted suspicion and even now in me provoke in me some thought that they have cheated. That is, the “sort em out” after the fact approach has been necessary, and that they are lying still and getting away with it. That the court confers benefit of the doubt hasn’t taken away mine. I don’t mean that to imply such doubt as mine should be a legal test for an individual to pass.
Only that courts may rule in favor of the liar, when The people of the State of Texas couldn’t lock a lie down.
I am distrustful of the cult members, and not without reason, though my bias is certainly affecting my negative view of them.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 10:54 am #
BMoe – Yeah, I’m kind of moody.
Seriously, Best Buy can ban my butt but they can’t make me stop at the door. It’s not like I’ve got a toddler in my bag.
Comment by B Moe on 5/23 @ 10:56 am #
It’s not like I’ve got a toddler in my bag.
Prove it.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 10:56 am #
And I love my Bose speakers, but I’m not going to marry them
Comment by SGT Ted on 5/23 @ 10:57 am #
CPS should be forbidden to those with Social work degrees. It should be an arm of law enforcement, with it’s employees being sworn officers trained as they are in respecting rights and understanding what the law allows and doesn’t allow them to do, and not a part of social services. Or it should be abolished.
This would bring some accountability where there is little.
While we’re at it, lets abolish the “best interests of the child” as it applies as a legal concept.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 10:58 am #
Prove it
Well, just that one. But I got it at Target.
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 11:00 am #
All I can say is see Darleen’s update. These don’t appear to be people who were lying, just people we were told were lying.
Comment by SGT Ted on 5/23 @ 11:04 am #
These don’t appear to be people who were lying, just people we were told were lying.
This is the problem with CPS; too many of them have been caught lying thru their teeth to get their way; Child Abduction Services is an apt description for all too many of them.
Comment by B Moe on 5/23 @ 11:07 am #
And a major component of the state’s argument is they are going to provide a more suitable home for the children. Do we really want to open the can of worms that is foster care?
Comment by Ouroboros on 5/23 @ 11:24 am #
I was married to some Bose speakers once.. a long time ago..A really nice pair of 901s with some huge, firm drivers you could set you coffee cup on.. It was really hot for a while but ultimately it didnt work out.. I wanted her just to sing for me.. but she, with her patented Direct/Reflecting speakers wanted to spread her music around to everyone and anyone that would listen.. I grew insanely jealous.. She accused me of stifling her creativity.. An old song we’ve all heard before…
but, as I said, that was a long time ago.. Havent seen her in years.. Last I heard of her was about ‘02.. Heard she was a PA system at a BigK store doing blue light specials… Think I’d rather just remember her as she was back in the day..
Comment by Ric Locke on 5/23 @ 11:26 am #
As for lying, in most cases that’s the best strategy. You are, after all, dealing with people who don’t know what they’re doing and get insulted if you ask them to look it up. At the very worst you end up causing the assholes a little extra time and effort; at best you can embarrass the Hell out of them, and maybe get the case dismissed, by showing that they didn’t bother with the elementary step of an ID check — as here. There’s no incremental cost for doing it. What’re they gonna do, sling you in jail and take your kids away? –right.
Call it a form of civil disobedience, less painful than self-immolation Buddhist style.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 1:39 pm #
And a major component of the state’s argument is they are going to provide a more suitable home for the children. Do we really want to open the can of worms that is foster care?
——-
It’s true I dont seen the children having days of lark and lollipops in state care. More like a lot of worms.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 1:59 pm #
B Moe-
And about that toddler in my bag – BB does have the legal right to detain and question me and even arrest me, if on good faith basis they have formed a reasonable suspicion that I am absconding with their stuff. Say if Hoaxy McGhee decides to stir up some fun, and goes to the security guard most sincerely “Oh Mr. Best Buy Man, halp, someone fitting the description of SarahW just grabbed “Master and Commander” and stuffed it her pants” – Best Buy can lawfully detain me. But they have no right to detain me legally if they have reason to suspect I have made a purchase at the register and am headed for the door. That does not form a good faith basis, reasonable suspicion for them to stop. They can ask. (Askin’ ain’t gettin’.) And they could be subject to penalties for false imprisonment if they get out of hand trying to force me to stop. The laws for dealing with threats to property, and law concerning invitees to commercial establishments are, I don’t have to tell you, are in several ways different from laws dealing with risks to persons.
The fact that having one’s kid taken away is a greater inconvenience than stopping for a voluntary bag check, doesn’t determine the legality of either.
I accept that so many here don’t see those children in enough danger to justify removal. I am bothered the court does not, and wonder about the quality of advocacy to the court and agenda of the court. But the disorganization and unpreparedness of Texas CPS is inexcusable, I’ll grant. I think they had a case and blew it.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 5/23 @ 6:35 pm #
- The way they get around the laws of stop and search at several stores is to require everyone to stop and open their bag(s) so they can check off the register receipt against the contents. Simple, and no one is singled out and no one gets pissed off since it is applied equally to all customers.
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 6:39 pm #
Sarah
I no longer give any credibility to CPS’s gossiping to the media about those lying cult women. Texas CPS was trying this case in the media from the get go. Remember that “sex room in the church!” story that had people gasping that the wanton sex cult?
Totally bogus. But it sure had people wanting every adult in the compound tarred, feathered then hanged. CPS’s pipeline to the media had done its job.
When the armored SWAT vehicles rolled onto the ranch, the FLDS members made video tapes and took notes … which were promptly confiscated.
Sorry, but I hope these women end up owning that whole county.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 6:42 pm #
Big Bang, yep. But they dont’ have a right to do anything but ask. And asking isn’t getting.
Comment by happyfeet on 5/23 @ 6:45 pm #
Like sex and cheesecake and can we watch Battlestar Galactica.
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 6:50 pm #
hf
I heart BSG.
Comment by SarahW on 5/23 @ 6:50 pm #
Darleen, your doubt may be better placed than mine. I don’t think there will be any compensation for them, though.
Comment by happyfeet on 5/23 @ 6:52 pm #
I’ll be three episodes behind after tonight. Ok I’m gonna make a smoothie and fix that right now.
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 6:57 pm #
PS Sarah
Looks like there is only five teens who may have engaged in illegal sex
It’s looking like this was never about the children. Infact, it looks like CPS hated the FLDS children as much as they did the adults, so traumatizing and terrifying kids was just icing on the “bust this cult” cake.
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 6:59 pm #
Sarah
If the women don’t get compensation, it will only be because they refuse to sue.
The women who showed their id and were told they were liars and then falsely imprisoned for six weeks have a solid basis for sueing the pants off the county.
Comment by Darleen on 5/23 @ 7:00 pm #
hf
Oh, do catch up. Last weeks’ was another doozy (and I can hardly wait to see tonight)
Comment by happyfeet on 5/23 @ 7:01 pm #
The age of consent should be 16 anyway. Has that been covered yet? I’m not saying there should be a bunch of social approbation for screwing highschool kids. Just that it’s kind of an arbitrarily criminal thing. More of an oops what was I thinking than the biggest deal in the world.
Comment by happyfeet on 5/23 @ 7:02 pm #
Ok I’m on it. I have to do the one everyone told me was “eerie” first.
Comment by MayBee on 5/23 @ 7:03 pm #
278- I agree, haps. 16 year olds are old enough to know what they are doing.
Comment by Pablo on 5/23 @ 7:22 pm #
And the age of consent is 16. There may be no illegal sex at all. Which is a very different story than the one we were told when this broke.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/24 @ 8:47 pm #
the age of consent is 17 in Texas.
sexual contact with a 16 or 17 year old minor is a felony in Texas.
Althouse asked if polygamy could be a crime in the United States.
The answer is no, without “activist” judges.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
So the minimum 3 wives to get to heaven of the FLDS patriarchy daddies is perfectly constitutional.
Texas wrote laws explicitly criminalizing FLDS child fake-marriage and statutory rape practices. Texas is just trying to get rid of the polygs.
We don’t care for polygs out here in the West.
Polygamy is constitutional as part of the practice of the FLDS religion.
So the states have to try to get rid of it.
You are all fake-federalists and disgusting skeezebags for supporting this and .
google FLDS lost boys for more.
If the DNA tests show even just one minor was impregnated, the court action is vindicated.
The reason the girls must married off young is that otherwise some of them will run away.
You are sickening apoligists.
/spit
Comment by happyfeet on 5/24 @ 8:58 pm #
Some of em might could get as far as Abilene even.
Comment by happyfeet on 5/24 @ 9:00 pm #
Get a job at Luby’s, maybe do some community college classes at night.
Comment by B Moe on 5/24 @ 9:02 pm #
So when do we start raiding government housing, nishi? Are you going to recommend Obama add this to his platform?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/24 @ 9:05 pm #
The reason all of you are sympathetic to the obscene FLDS patriarchy daddies is that you think you OWN your children too.
That is a common theme in this thread.
My principal at my highschool commencement said, “you don’t have children. They have you, for at least 25 years.”
You are disgusting.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/24 @ 9:08 pm #
B Moes, social services gets paid to raid government housing already. Happens every day.
That is a bullshit argument.
SS couldn’t get a toe into the YFZ compound because those kids arent visably abused.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/24 @ 9:09 pm #
You are sickening apologists.
I’m out.
Comment by B Moe on 5/24 @ 9:12 pm #
Don’t let the door hit you on the ass, idiot.
Comment by happyfeet on 5/24 @ 9:12 pm #
These kids got a bad roll of the dice really. But there’s definitely a public interest in letting crazy damaged people self-segregate. Otherwise they’re our neighbors.
Comment by thor on 5/24 @ 9:25 pm #
Nishi, if I walked into a church and everyone was holding hands and singing praise for a good wind to protect them from an evil wind, I might burst open in loud laughter. And the mob might remove their life-size Jesus from the wall and crucify me in his place. So it’s fair to say when people call me out as an atheist I am guilty as charged.
This FLDS/CPS debate isn’t centered in opinions of religion or even patriarchy or matriarchy. It’s about justice served. The State can’t strip certain of citizenry its rights simply because they live like Quakers in the times of nano-technology. And since we’re talking about rights of parents to have access to their children, the State should handle these cases with additional care and not in a fiendish fit of abusive power.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/24 @ 9:29 pm #
You are sickening apologists.
I’m out.
See you tomorrow.
Unfortunately.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/24 @ 9:45 pm #
There are only five girls in that group. All but one are or will be 18 this year.
I wonder how this compares to proportion of teen mothers in the general population?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/25 @ 6:04 am #
FLDS/CPS debate isn’t centered in opinions of religion
NO.
It is about States rights.
Texas deliberately wrote laws criminalizing the FLDS practices of childmarriage and childrape. The FLDS get around anti-polygamy laws by just having one legal wife and a mess of spirit wives.
Now with the DNA samples Texas just may be able to enforce those laws.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates - UMBA on 5/25 @ 6:26 am #
See you tomorrow.
Unfortunately.
As I said.