Just how much “truth” is revealed by pictures?
Photos of carefree Parisians lazing in cafes, flocking to cinemas or enjoying a day at the races during the Nazi occupation have sparked outrage in Paris and calls for the exhibit to be shut down.
The 270 unpublished photographs by Andre Zucca, a French photographer who worked for the Nazi propaganda magazine Signal, are billed as the only major collection of colour pictures taken during the four years of the Paris occupation.
The photo exhibit showing women in polka-dot dresses strolling down Paris boulevards and children playing at the Luxembourg gardens is under fire for failing to mention that thousands of Jews were deported and countless other Parisians endured hardship during the 1940-1944 occupation. [...]
Perreault said the exhibit is silent about the Nazi persecution of Jews and other campaigns of repression as well as the food rationing and poverty that plagued the city.
“I think if young people come to this exhibit and only see these pictures, they will come away with the wrong impression,” he said.
It should be noted that such worry over false impressions were absent when the French honored Michael Moore
“Fahrenheit 9/11†was the first documentary to win Cannes’ prestigious Palme d’Or since Jacques Cousteau’s “The Silent World†in 1956.
Moore’s film was particularly infamous with images of a beautiful, tranquil Iraq under Saddam, with kite-flying children, et al.
Heh.
Comment by Ouroboros on 4/23 @ 8:59 am #
C’est la vie…
Was it supposed to be some big secret that the Petainistes were Nazi ass-kissing surrender monkeys that traded their national sovereignty for a little less hardship?
They weren’t just occupied.. They collaborated.. They had their own “Französische Brigade der SS” (The Charlemagne Division).. They happily assisted in the persecution of Jews and others..
A little late to worry about their image.
Comment by serr8d on 4/23 @ 9:05 am #
HeH.
Comment by Mikey NTH on 4/23 @ 9:16 am #
And it would be shocking, shocking I tell you, to find that little children will still play when bad things are going on.
It is a part of the truth. It isn’t the whole truth, but it is a part.
Comment by Squid on 4/23 @ 9:24 am #
“The photo exhibit showing women in polka-dot dresses strolling down Paris boulevards and children playing at the Luxembourg gardens is under fire for failing to mention that thousands of Zionists were driven forth from the land, and countless other Parisians learned the divine joy of submission during the early 21st Century occupation.”
From a review of Squid’s 2048 photo exhibition chronicling life in the early years of the occupation. The most heated controversy surrounds those photographs showing Parisian women strolling uncovered and unaccompanied. The exhibit, first shown in Chicago, will soon begin a tour of the United Kingdom and Eastern Europe. The photographs have been banned in France, where rioting broke out after news of the exhibit was broadcast on the state-controlled Le Jazeera network. The exhibition is also banned from New York and San Francisco, who call it hate speech against their brethren in Europe, Asia, and Africa.
Comment by Tim P on 4/23 @ 9:32 am #
How inconvenient when a glimpse of reality
breaks through the fog of the hype.
No wonder the French authorities are pissed.
“France Under The Germans” by Philippe Burrin
Michael Moore, et al. would have fit right in.
Comment by Conway Twittier on 4/23 @ 10:00 am #
When did that Hilton gal join the SS?
Comment by psycho... on 4/23 @ 10:01 am #
Nazi France embarrassed by its baby pictures? Tough shit. This is who you are, assholes. Those Jews didn’t round up and burn themselves. And they’re not emigrating like it’s 1939 now because it’s just too awesome to live there.
And anything that can make those liars STFU for one damn second about “The Resistance” — a tiny failure that almost no one who’s claimed to have been a part of actually was — is an unalloyed good.
Plus, there’s no propaganda in those pictures. For everyone who’s not right up in it, war is strolling in polka-dots and fucking around in the park. That’s not the “wrong impression.” With very few exceptions, those French who cared at all about the “occupation” (which it wasn’t; they fucking joined) cheered it, then got their Nazi stroll on.
Fuck a France. The U.S. was wrong not to flatten it.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/23 @ 10:10 am #
I wish I had it at hand, but on the eve of France’s surrender, the British offered to form a Union with them, so that France’s colonies could stay in the fight against the Nazis. A French official apparently responded to the effect that he’d rather be a Nazi slave than a British partner.
The first American actions in the European theater were ALWAYS against French targets. North Africa? We “liberated” French colonies. D-Day? Massive bombardment of the French coast, aerial bombing of France, paratrooper landings in France.
And what can you say about the nation that left NATO shortly after the Cold War began and rejoined it AFTER the fall of Communism?
Comment by Techie on 4/23 @ 10:11 am #
To be fair, the Wehrmacth didn’t give them much of a choice. What, were Parisians supposed to burn their dresses and don sackcloth during the occupation?
Did every restaurant close it’s does for 3 years?
There are wartime vintages available, should every vintner have burned his vines?
Comment by Ouroboros on 4/23 @ 10:22 am #
Ironic… The Michael Moore Baghdad Idyll might just come to be thanks to American occupation, western for profit corporations and Disney..
Comment by Ouroboros on 4/23 @ 10:27 am #
B
SKATES
G
H
D
A
D
As a dedicated skater and snowboarder in my youth, I totally approve.
Comment by Ouroboros on 4/23 @ 10:28 am #
Stupid software automatically justifies left… OOPs
Comment by Daryl Herbert on 4/23 @ 10:31 am #
Is the point of the exhibit that life was great under the Nazis, or is the point that frogs is a bunch of cowards who enjoyed themselves under the Nazis?
I think the exhibit would be damning if photos of French Jews being persecuted by the Nazis were interspersed with photos of French people enjoying themselves in the meantime.
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 10:41 am #
At least they have the good sense to be embarrassed. But really, the part where they agitated against the U.S. in defense of Saddam Hussein is a way bigger deal. I won’t ever forget that. A nation of flaccid cocksuckers, perfumed eunuchs all.
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 10:53 am #
Don’t hold anything back, happyfeet ;-)
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:21 am #
I think Hitler:Saddam is an appropriate historical analogy. Really, I do.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:28 am #
I mean, think about it: Hitler’s blitz through Europe with the biggest army in the world occupying mainlanf Europe is exactly the same as Saddam the evil dictator of his own country. I’ve heard SOME unhinged pinko faggots say that a better historical analogy for Saddam would be some othe 2-bit dictator ass hole, but we know better – namely that the best analogy for Hitler is whomever we want to drum up support for a war against right now, or retro-fit rationales for wars gone by.
So how do you spell Hitler? Amedhenaj….oh forget it! At least Hitler had the decency to have an easy to spell name!
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:32 am #
And then you ‘ve got the idea that the French should be as outraged re: their own biggest modern historical event as Iraq’s. I,mean, clearly, those should be equivalent and so the analogy continues to hold up!
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 11:33 am #
it’s always nice when they quit trying to be civil and go straight to mockery.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:35 am #
Yes, it is mockery.
But embedded IN the mockery is my point – that this analogy is absurd – and I detail why it’s absurd. So I’m sort of killing two birds with one stone. I think to simply call it mockery is to ignore alot.
I mean, come on, the spellling bit? That was funny….
Comment by McGehee on 4/23 @ 11:35 am #
It’s even nicer when they go straight to mockability.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:36 am #
And since when is mockery not civil? I think I can behave civilly and still be a jerk.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 11:37 am #
I mean, it’s not like Sadaam ever invaded another country….
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:37 am #
I mean, no one here ever responds to my points anyway, so let’s go straight to the mockability.
Seriously, though – when you write things like this, you sort of deserve to be mocked. Sorry, but it is that ridiculous
Comment by MayBee on 4/23 @ 11:37 am #
At least they have the good sense to be embarrassed. But really, the part where they agitated against the U.S. in defense of Saddam Hussein is a way bigger deal. I won’t ever forget that. A nation of flaccid cocksuckers, perfumed eunuchs all.
Yeah, and a bunch of my old neighbors flew the French flag on their flagpoles in those days. I’ll bet all of them are Obama voters now.
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 11:37 am #
At least the French have the good sense to be embarrassed.
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 11:38 am #
Oh. Sorry MayBee… #26 was meant to be just before yours…
Comment by McGehee on 4/23 @ 11:40 am #
I’ve never seen steve so introspective before.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:40 am #
“I mean, it’s not like Sadaam ever invaded another country….”
Thank you – now I have another criterion for the Hitler analogy (not that we needed any more). Every country that invades another is like Hitler – oh wait, maybe we should rethink that…
Kuwait with an army that could be taken down by the Rhode Island police dept : the blitzkrieg in WWII.
It’s just perfect.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 11:40 am #
MOOOOOooooom! they won’t play wiff me.
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 11:41 am #
Mockery tends to be a bit more funny when it does not ooze contempt. France cuddled up to Hitler. France cuddled up to Saddam. No need to draw any conclusions. Just a couple facts.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:42 am #
I’ll be the first to tell dem and libs that they’re ass holes for comparing Bush to Hitler.
But y’all are no better. Every friggin’ person is Hitler and every historical event involving conflict is like WWII. But tyhey’re not, and someone needs to point that out to you folks.
That I do it with humor and mocking is but gravy.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:42 am #
“MOOOOOooooom! they won’t play wiff me.”
I don’t understand this insult
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 11:43 am #
oh, that was humor? I got it confused with a temper tantrum, which I suppose is funny in it’s own way.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 11:43 am #
steve is arguing with some cartoon commentator in his head. Which, I don’t know. He has several to choose from.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:43 am #
“Mockery tends to be a bit more funny when it does not ooze contempt. ”
For the people whose ideas are garnering the contemp, sure. I think it’s hillarious.
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 11:44 am #
Oh, I get it. I forgot that if 2 things are mentioned in proximity to each other, by twatwaffle standards, that is overtly linking the two.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:44 am #
I seem really angry, yeah
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:45 am #
twatwaffle=unfunny
cartoon commentator=unfunny
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 11:45 am #
in every aspect. no exceptions.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:45 am #
Come on! Gimme some material!
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 11:46 am #
but you were doing so well on your own.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:46 am #
OH, OK – back away form making the analogy now. Great.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:47 am #
“but you were doing so well on your own.”
I know. But I’m always looking for fresh material. Where’s Collins? He’s funny….
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 11:47 am #
French Rifle For Sale! Never fired! Dropped Once! Call Steve!
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 11:47 am #
????
Comment by Techie on 4/23 @ 11:47 am #
I’m sure Kuwait would rather have been invaded by Rhode Island than Saddam-era Iraq.
Too bad they didn’t have a choice in the matter.
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 11:48 am #
and steve is simply trying to distract from the point that France and Hitler were all buddy buddy, but now it is kind of embarassing for them. Because these pictures don’t accurately portray the way they want history to be told. The irony that Michael “i am actually 3 people” Moore was given an award for distorting reality is lost on you. Either way, the voices in your head, you should not listen to them.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 11:49 am #
feh, Techie, if they can’t defend themselves, screw ‘em.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 11:49 am #
Don’t worry steve! Barack will be elected! Iraq will be abandoned! Brown people will slaughter each other with glee! Universal Health Care for all!
Unicorns! Bumblebees! Flatulence! Wheeeeeeee!
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:50 am #
And the whole “we hate the French” bit is so…predictable. That Darlene needed to stretch logic so far in service of the ultimate right-wing triteness is sort of inviting a little mockabillity. MAYBE if it made sense, I’d have left it alone – there is some humor to be gained by making fun of the French – IF it’s funny. This brings together unfunny, illogical and trite. C’est irrestible.
Comment by MayBee on 4/23 @ 11:50 am #
steve, don’t you think it was kind of unfair to the Iraqis that Moore’s propaganda diminished their suffering? Do you think someone on the Cannes board should have noticed that?
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 11:51 am #
And wants to distract from the fact that he and Baracky would give those cowardly deceitful surrender monkeys a modicum of control over our own security decisions.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:52 am #
And here’s BJTExas that can’t discuss anything w/o endless MSM banner issues. Very creative.
Oh wait, I forgot – EVERYTHING is about Obama, the election etc. My bad
Comment by Carin TWPBH on 4/23 @ 11:53 am #
I think steve needs a graph explaining Darleen’s point.
Comment by Techie on 4/23 @ 11:53 am #
Belgium didn’t put up too much of a fight either. They obviously weren’t worth our effort.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 11:54 am #
I think they held out longer than the French.
And praise allah that it was Sadddam who invaded Kuwait. If you thought the Republican Guard was a looting, murdering, torturing, raping buncha thugs .. whoa, those guys in blue are nasty!
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:58 am #
MayBee – ask all of the people we killed who they suffered more under. Freedom isn’t real becasue it’s declared politically, it’s real when it actually happens.
This notion that there’s some mutual exclusivity of suffering between Saddam and the occupation is a misconception. I needn’t like Saddam to like the occupation even less – or acknowledge that the work-a-day Joe in Iraq was better off under Saddam than now (or over the past 5 years). Some cultural and social processes can’t be accelerated from without regardless of the best of intentions, and I think that’s the ultimate lesson in Iraq.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 11:58 am #
Plus they talk kinda funny.
“Bend ovah my cahr and lift up your robe, assan!”
I think steve is bitter because he doesn’t own a gun and has no ass.
Jesus still loves him.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:00 pm #
soooo, how has it “not happened”?
Comment by Carin TWPBH on 4/23 @ 12:01 pm #
Ooh, is steve gonna trot out the Lancet numbers now? That is always fun.
Comment by Rusty on 4/23 @ 12:01 pm #
#29
Perhaps it’s noteworthy, steve, that Saddam Hussein admired both Hitler and Stalin. See how that works?
I had the opportunity to travel through Normandy and Brittany during the fall of 1986. Through tiny little villages that were no more than four buildings, one at each corner of the crossroads. Roads so remote and narrow they didn’t have a line down the middle. In the center of nearly all the little towns was a monument. ” Dedicated to the American and British soldiers who died to liberate-insert forgettable name of little town here” All of the monuments were well kept. There were always flowers growing in the soil surrounding them. We were treated with the greatest friendliness while we were there. This is the strongest memory of that whole trip and what I think of when France is mentioned. The people of France aren’t like the government of France.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 12:02 pm #
OK, somebody needs to call that Ghost Whisperer chick STAT!
steve, Baracky knows your bitteress, he feels your bitterness. He offers equal helpings of changetudinous and hopylicious unity.
GIVE UP YOUR BITTERNESS AND EMBRACE THE OBAMESSIAH!
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:04 pm #
I don’t need a graph – it’s inane. Parisians shouldn’t be as outraged by the depiction of people under SAddam being seen as having fun as they are about their own defining historical event. Why would they be? They’re French, not Iraqi! That’s just one place where the analogy breaks down. An assumption before you can even get there is that there’s some analogy between Iraq under Saddam and Paris under Hitler, which is also inane for many reasons that I laid out mockingly above.
Comment by MayBee on 4/23 @ 12:04 pm #
MayBee – ask all of the people we killed who they suffered more under. Freedom isn’t real becasue it’s declared politically, it’s real when it actually happens.
Maybe I’ll ask all the French people that died while we were freeing France about that, too.
But I’ll probably wait to do that until after the board at Cannes gives an award to a pro-Iraq war propaganda “Documentary”.
Comment by MayBee on 4/23 @ 12:07 pm #
And the whole “we hate the French†bit is so
And let me go on the record as saying I love France! I like a lot of French people too! And the food and the wine. They did us wrong over Iraq, though, so their folks could continue to make money from Saddam. Remember when their big post-invasion complaint was that we wouldn’t let them have any contracts? Oh, the good old days….
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 12:07 pm #
steve: you no haz graph?
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:07 pm #
“soooo, how has it “not happenedâ€Â?”
How free are you when your constantly afraid of being killed? Or afraid your children are going to be killed? Or when you have no economy and therefor no options for what to do with your freedom? That’s not freedom.And it’s real easy for us to sit on our comfy asses and say stuff like that. It’s either naivity or calousness that makes people say stuff like that.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:08 pm #
or I know people that have been there and say otherwise.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:09 pm #
I should say, I know people that have been there and been told otherwise by Iraqis.
Comment by Carin TWPBH on 4/23 @ 12:10 pm #
OK, start here, steve.
1) Propaganda is bad and manipulative.
Now, is the next step “All propaganda is bad” or just “only propaganda we don’t agree with is bad”?
Because, perhaps I see where we’re breaking down here.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:10 pm #
Did us wrong over Iraq…my God. Its a friggin disaster people! Even if it straightens out tomorrow, it’s a disaster.
The smartest thing the French could have done is stay away.
I do love that reality has no place in politics amymore. No matter how poorly some policy goes – the people who were most staunchly for it can’t acknowledge that something didn’t go right.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:10 pm #
also have seen numbers that show more people died under Sadaam than the “occupation”.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:11 pm #
Oh great, we’re going to go anecdotal.
What are you talking about Carin?
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:11 pm #
well, steve, where’s your data?
Comment by McGehee on 4/23 @ 12:13 pm #
Especially if it straightens out tomorrow. Or anytime before January 21, 2009.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:14 pm #
“also have seen numbers that show more people died under Sadaam than the “occupationâ€Â.”
The “i’ve heard people say” business is bad enough, but this really requires some evidence.
And why is occupation in quotes? You can’t even admit THAT?
That’s great. Yeah…..it’s a big military excercise. No wait! We’re just over for dinner, yeah that’s it! Dinner!
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:14 pm #
BECAUSE STEVE HAS DECLARED IT SO!!!
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 12:15 pm #
Saddam: he no kill teh kite flying citizens, they jump onto electrical shocks and then dismember themselves.
And teh Iraqi economy under the embargo? It was TEH BOMB! Well, for Saddam, anyway. MORE PALACES!!!
ALL YOUR HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE ARE BELONG TO US!!!
Comment by jamrat on 4/23 @ 12:16 pm #
Steve’s vagina seems extra sandy today, no?
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:16 pm #
“well, steve, where’s your data?”
That people generally don’t like when they are killed – and polling data
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 12:16 pm #
Ever been to the Deportation Memorial in Paris? Right behind Notre Dame?
It’s locked most of the time, though you can easily hop the gate. Thing is, to get to it, you have to risk being run over as you cross the street. They really don’t make it easy to get to, or into.
Read into that what you will.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:17 pm #
“Steve’s vagina seems extra sandy today, no?”
Well YOU are the one who insisted on putting the sand in the vaseline, you friggin sadist bastard!
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:17 pm #
from your ass?
Comment by Carin TWPBH on 4/23 @ 12:18 pm #
You claimed Darleen made a tenuous comparison between Nazi propaganda and Moore’s propaganda. One was heralded (Moore’s) and the other has their panties in a twist.
You silly comments regarding Saddam and how life was better with him in power are just silly. Tell that to the 600 missing Kuwaits. Or the Kurds. Or the chicks that turned down his son for dates.
Comment by jamrat on 4/23 @ 12:19 pm #
steve #83
Huh?
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 12:19 pm #
The only way that France could win a war would be to fight themselves, and they would have to have a written agreement beforehand that they would not both immediately surrender. Hell, Cote D’Azur almost kicked their smelly asses.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 12:23 pm #
What did the Mayor of Paris say to the commanding general of the German army as they prepared to enter the city?
“Table for 100,000, monsieur?”
Comment by MayBee on 4/23 @ 12:23 pm #
The smartest thing the French could have done is stay away.
I do love that reality has no place in politics amymore.
In reality, the French didn’t stay away because they thought it would be a disaster. They stayed away because they wanted to continue to trade with Saddam, and they wanted the French-German axis to gain stature and power over the US. That isn’t revisionist history, no matter how things have turned out.
However, even if you are/were against the war, the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam was diminished by Moore and celebrated by Cannes. 70 succesful years of freedom later, the French *still* don’t want their suffering under the Nazis diminished.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:24 pm #
Oh, OK: propaganda is propaganda so it doesn’t matter what country it’s from, the egregiousnous of it, etc.
That’s ridiculous
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:25 pm #
MAybe they’ve radically changed their minds, but 4 years into our lovely Dinner in Iraq:
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/14282
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 12:26 pm #
steve gets his data from dave. He is, thus, dataless.
What is it with trolls named steve? Is there a secret troll society of wiseass, brain dead, delusional PC heads that requires they go forth and “be the steve troll?” Oh, let me guess. The secret membership ring is made of tinfoil.
I can only imagine what the club hats look like.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:27 pm #
If someone can find a more recent poll that shows this trend reversed, I;d like to see it. I would expect that it’s better – and certainly the ‘optimism’ type questions have shown improvement. But all the polls I see say they want us out, and they didn’t want us to invade – pardon, go there for dinner.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:29 pm #
MayBee is quite right to say that the French did not stay away from Iraq becasue of good intentions. I do agree and should have pointed that out.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:29 pm #
some math also a bit old….
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 12:32 pm #
Steve is right, and I don’t see then how Baracky can get out of his historical responsibility to restore the repressive dictatorship to Iraq. Clearly, he thinks he can simply withdraw U.S. forces and leave the restoration to chance. But what if the ensuing genocide kills the man who would be the paragon of sadistic tyranny? Clearly Baracky will have to be more proactive than he has so far envisioned. The world is watching. Will he pass the global test?
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 12:33 pm #
90% *snigger*
90% *chortle*
90% BWAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! *wipes tears*
Whew! Let me guess, steve. When a skinny Ethiopian guy dressed in a loin cloth rings your door bell and tells you he’s Santa Clause … you ask him for a ride in the sleigh, don’t you.
BWAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHA!!! 90%, hee, hee!
Comment by Ric Locke on 4/23 @ 12:37 pm #
Yeah, steve. You’re just a happy genocidist.
I suppose if you’re a Marsh Arab, “better off” means being dead or having your environment and livelihood destroyed. If you’re a poor Shi’ia, “better off” means having NO access to electrical power or clean water instead of it being sporadic, or if you’re a less-poor Shi’ia “better off” means being tossed into Abu Ghraib prison (where you have the joyful experience of walking on the graves of your relatives buried in the exercise yard), having hands or genitals cut off, or just being machine-gunned like Muqtada al-Sadr’s dad and brothers. And if you’re a Kurd, “better off” means being poison-gassed by the thousand, or imprisoned and tortured like the poor Shi’ia. Of course, if you’re a good-looking Iraqi female of any ethnic extraction, “better off” means being raped by Uday or Qusay, then turned over to their goon squad for gang-rape and subsequent murder.
So steve’s definition of “better off” is divergent from mine.
I can live with the arguments that the Iraqi adventure was too expensive or didn’t give sufficient return, however phrased — I think they’re wrong, but there is an argument there. Steve is just a fucking murderer, torturer, and genocidist like the rest of the Mooreonic Convergence, anxious to kill him some little brown people — but he’s too much of a pansy-ass to go do it himself, so he’s glad and happy Saddam was there to do it for him and sorry to see the fellow go.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:38 pm #
I’m not saying that the poll I cited as perfect (or recent), but that link has many problem, including a lack of primary source links for alot of the data. Not that I’m simply dismissing it – it would just be nice to chase through more recent links than chase down old links and – when done – still be left with the naggin question “what’s happened since then?”. I’ll try and find something from that link and try andget back to you later…
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 12:40 pm #
Methinks steve is intentionally being a bonehead.
How free are you when your constantly afraid of being killed? Or afraid your children are going to be killed? Or when you have no economy and therefor no options for what to do with your freedom? That’s not freedom.
Good description of life under Saddam, but you forgot the chemical weapons, rape rooms, wood chippers, being pushed off of buildings, etc …
No matter how poorly some policy goes – the people who were most staunchly for it can’t acknowledge that something didn’t go right.
Insert the left’s attempts to wage a war on poverty, tax the successful, welfare, social security, and on and on and on … Or, just picture steve sitting in the corner screaming “IT IS BAD BECAUSE I SAID SO!”
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 12:42 pm #
BJ,
Why did the French plant trees all along the major roads?
So the Germans could goose-step in the shade!
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:42 pm #
well, and i don’t think you’d find any of that have said it’s gone perfectly. mistakes have been made, but that doesn’t invalidate the effort. like WWII. ;D
Comment by MayBee on 4/23 @ 12:43 pm #
the French did not stay away from Iraq becasue of good intentions. I do agree and should have pointed that out.
Yeah. So that’s where the France did us wrong thing came in, and the reason happyfeet’s #14 is perfectly legitimate.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 12:43 pm #
But, Ric! 90% of the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam! They said so! In a poll! 90%!
[...]
BWAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Can’t. Keep. Straight. Face.
Besides, Saddam was killing his own people and, unless you’re planning to host the Olympics and want to run the torch through Paris or San Francisco, nobody cares.
Willfull Ignorance: It’s what’s for dinner!
Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 4/23 @ 12:43 pm #
Great catch, Darleen.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:45 pm #
Ric, I cannot compete with your accusations of me:
“Yeah, steve. You’re just a happy genocidist.”
“Steve is just a fucking murderer”
But I can tell you that you are an idiot for having made them (or maybe you’re a kid – kids sometimes think extreme things like this before they realize that the world’s a bit more complex than they realized). If you’re a kid, good news: you can still outgrow your idiocy. If you’re not, bad news: stupid never goes away. It’s like being ugly – but without the plastic surgery. (Though a ‘Flowers for Algernon’ like procedure could come about – never say never).
And you know what – I bet you don’t have the cohones to go up to someone on the street with whom you disagree and say stuff like that to them (and I would recommend fo your health and safety you do not). So you’re an internet tough guy. How nice for you.
Grow up Ric.
And don’t put sand in the vaseline.
Comment by mlcoe on 4/23 @ 12:46 pm #
For the record I don’t think Darleen was trying to make any point other than that this exhibit does the same thing that Michael Moore did. It
creates a false impression of the totality of circumstances by showing people going about their business normally despite the oppressive nature of their governments. She then made the natural observation that they only objected when their ox was being gored.
Steve took us to the subject of comparing Hitler and Hussein. I think they are very comparable:
Let’s start with Ba’athism. Here is a description from Wikipedia:
The Arabic word Ba’ath means “renaissance” or “resurrection” as in the party’s founder Michel Aflaq’s published works “On The Way Of Resurrection”. Ba’thist beliefs combine Arab Socialism, nationalism, and Pan-Arabism. The mostly secular ideology often contrasts with that of other Arab governments in the Middle East, which sometimes tend to have leanings towards Islamism and theocracy.
Nothing NAZI like in that pairing of Nationalism and Socialism.
How about regarding genocide?
how about from this article:
http://www.gbn.com/ArticleDisplayServlet.srv?aid=2400&msp=1242
Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis.
Now admittedly that runs far short of Hitler’s totals,but keep in mind that he needed to conquer other countries to make it so. In Poland alone he killed 3 milliom Jews. According to Wikipedia:
“Of the 750,000 Jews in Germany and Austria in 1933, only about a quarter survived. Although many German Jews emigrated before 1939, the majority of these fled to Czechoslovakia, France or the Netherlands, from where they were later deported to their deaths.”
That means if Hitler had been contained to Germany and Austria the death toll would have been far less. In fact very comparable to what Hussein achieved (in a less populous country).
Is it really unwarranted to compare the two. Not necessarily make them equal, but compare?
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 12:48 pm #
Saddam also got 97% of the democratic popular vote, BJ.
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 12:50 pm #
Methinks that steve has not read enough to say “If you’re a kid, good news: you can still outgrow your idiocy.” to Ric Locke. I have a potty mouth, and would understand if he said it to me, but Ric. Good allah, steve. Step away from the keyboard.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:53 pm #
Fuck Ric, JD. If you wanna say shit like that, you should expect something strong back.
“Murderer!” What an idiot.
And need I remind you – this isn’t real life. YOu can’t be intimidated on a friggin’ blog.And if you can be…
And I stand by my statement: sand in the vaseline hurts. Sure, it’s fun when the deal goes down, but after that, the pain is unbearable.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 4/23 @ 12:54 pm #
“Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 12:40 pm #
Methinks steve is intentionally being a bonehead.”
I’m not sure it’s intentional.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:54 pm #
It’s intentional
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 12:56 pm #
damn, that’s the third irony meter this thread.
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 12:58 pm #
- Gallic Wars
- Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian. [Or at ths time in history, a Roman -ed.]
- Hundred Years War
- Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; “France’s armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman.” Sainted.
- Italian Wars
- Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.
- Wars of Religion
- France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots
- Thirty Years War
- France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.
- War of Revolution
- Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.
- The Dutch War
- Tied
- War of the Augsburg League/King William’s War/French and Indian War
- Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.
- War of the Spanish Succession
- Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.
- American Revolution
- In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as “de Gaulle Syndrome”, and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; “France only wins when America does most of the fighting.”
- French Revolution
- Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.
- The Napoleonic Wars
- Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.
- The Franco-Prussian War
- Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France’s ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.
- World War I
- Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States [Entering the war late -ed.]. Thousands of French women find out what it’s like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn’t call her “Fraulein.” Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.
- World War II
- Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.
- War in Indochina
- Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu
- Algerian Rebellion
- Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; “We can always beat the French.” This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.
- War on Terrorism
- France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald’s.
I cannot find the link to this anymore, but a classic nonetheless.
Comment by Ric Locke on 4/23 @ 12:58 pm #
Awww, is poor steve unhappy? He doesn’t like being described accurately.
Bullshit, steve. You haven’t even had the wit to weasel — “Saddam was a bad guy, but it’s none of our business” — because you know damn well it is our business. I guess the biggest disappointment to me is watching the Democratic Party go from “pay any price, bear any burden” to “brother’s keeper? F* that, it’s too much trouble” in a single generation.
Your specific declaration is that the Iraqis were better off under Saddam. If that is the case, you include Kurd-gassing, Shi’ia-murdering, and killing off Marsh Arabs under “better off”; and since everyone wants others to be better off, you must of necessity regard those as good things, to be administered whenever possible. As confirmation, you compliment the Good and Benevolent Saddam, whose policies they were, and regret that he is no longer around to carry them out.
If murderers and genocidists are your heroes, that makes you a murderer and genocidist yourself, just too delicate to participate in your own person. The latter does not make you more admirable. Rather the reverse, in fact.
And no, I don’t say that to people on the street. I do say it to people in conversation, and will continue to do so. No, it doesn’t make me popular. That doesn’t make me less right.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by N. O'Brain on 4/23 @ 12:58 pm #
“# Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:54 pm #
It’s intentional”
Interesting.
Why would one wander the vast tubes of the interweb, only to make oneself look like a fool?
Comment by royf on 4/23 @ 12:59 pm #
I needn’t like Saddam to like the occupation even less – or acknowledge that the work-a-day Joe in Iraq was better off under Saddam than now (or over the past 5 years).
What BS! That is a absolute lie. Both the Kurds and the Shia are significantly better off now than under Saddam. There is more oil being pumped, more clean water to drink, sewerage and sanitation services now exist and the economy is growing at about 12% per year. Ownership of TVs and other types of appliances has exploded to the extent that electrical demand has outstripped supply, even though electrical supply is many times more than during Saddam’s time. Obviously facts don’t matter to you as a closed minded bigot but because you won’t acknowledge then doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Some cultural and social processes can’t be accelerated from without regardless of the best of intentions, and I think that’s the ultimate lesson in Iraq.
Gee! and I thought we were following the same plan employed in Germany, Japan and South Korea. Ah but of course those were wars fought under Democrat Presidents so they couldn’t possibly apply right? Apparently everyone else here takes you for the silly partisan you are, I just wanted you to know I stand with them.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 1:00 pm #
Steve: 90% of Iraqis think you are a delusional moron.
The other 10% just think you are bitter.
And steve; you aren’t at the intellectual level that would allow you to clean the dirt from Ric Locke’s boots with your tongue.
Oh and put your balls back in your pants.
Comment by Major John on 4/23 @ 1:04 pm #
Please disregard the Typing Telephone Pole.
109 comments and how many were wasted on “steve”?
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 1:04 pm #
Hey JD,
Just as Caesar was a Roman, the French of the time were actually Celts.
Which, you know, the shame.
Patrick
–
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 1:05 pm #
See, Ric lives up to his billing as a simpleton living in his monchrome world.
How old are you Ric?
Let’s look at Ric’s Tour De Simple (though it was appropriate given the thread).
I’m either for the occupation or murderers and genocidists are my heroes and I’m endorsing Saddam. OK, that’s fair. No bifurication error there. I mean, this means that Ric endorses every bit of evil int he world going on right now that we as a nation could stop but don’t, but whatever. the world’s simple when you’re 15.
And I don’t believe that you run around calling people murderers. I think you do that at a safe distance fromthe comfort and safety of your computer. I mean, I’d just laugh in your face, honestly. Some people don’t see the humor in everything like I do Ric.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 1:07 pm #
“109 comments and how many were wasted on “steveâ€Â?”
That’s right! I’m damn popular here at PW. You people love me!
And in a way, I love you too. But not in a sand in the vaseline kind of way.
And to think! YOu could have spent those posts telling eachother just how right you are. What a waste!
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 1:08 pm #
Are BJ and JD the same person? Seriously.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 1:10 pm #
YEah Royf – everything’s great in Iraq and the Iraqis love us. Just like y’all predicted
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 1:12 pm #
No, steve, BJ is nicer, browner, and smarter. I am a vile, hate filled racist and sexist TWP.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 1:12 pm #
90% of Iraqi’s don’t think steve exists.
The other 10% think he’s Yakoff Smirniff.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 1:13 pm #
Oh, JD, and homophobic! You forgot homophobic!
You always forget homophobic.
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 1:16 pm #
I thought that was a given, BJ.
steve, I think you are making the mistake of sacrificing the good at the altar of the perfect. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. But it is exponentially better than before, and you willful refusal to even acknowledge same is sad.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/23 @ 1:19 pm #
You mean like they’re all Vietnam, until they’re not?
Gulf War? “It’ll be another Vietnam!!!”
Afghanistan? “It won’t be another Gulf War, it’ll be another VIETNAM!!!”
Iraq? “It won’t be another Afghanistan, it’ll be ANOTHER VIETNAM!!!”
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 1:20 pm #
whatevs, Major John, you need to get off the computer and back to occupying.
or was it dinner?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 4/23 @ 1:24 pm #
“#Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 1:10 pm #
YEah Royf – everything’s great in Iraq and the Iraqis love us. Just like y’all predicted”
Except for al Queda.
Who are mostly dead.
Ask Major John, moron.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 1:25 pm #
“But it is exponentially better than before, and you willful refusal to even acknowledge same is sad.”
Actually, I never said anything to the contrary. That it’s better doesn’t mean that it’s good, but I do acknowledge improvement. The only time I even imtimated anything about it, @ 93:
“If someone can find a more recent poll that shows this trend reversed, I;d like to see it. I would expect that it’s better – and certainly the ‘optimism’ type questions have shown improvement.”
And BTW – as much as you guys mocked the poll I found – you never found anything to counter it.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 1:25 pm #
Maggie: I though he was oppressing this rotation. I know he was looking forward to looting at some point. :-)
You are right Major John. I allowed my self to be drawn into vacuous steve world and now I am soiled and smarmy.
I condemn myself and blame JD … and maggie … but not Halliburton…. or Kyoto…
PS: Stay safe over there. My prayers are with you.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 1:27 pm #
I love that. YOu can’t even call it an occupation.
What is it then? Seriously, what is your characterization?
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 1:27 pm #
YOu will get smarmy in there – no doubt.
Comment by mlcoe on 4/23 @ 1:28 pm #
“the work-a-day Joe in _____ is/was better off under ______”
The generic and constant lefty defense of their pet tyrants. See Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler pre-1937, Ho-Chi-Minh, Mao, various communards from The French Revolution, Che, Castro, Pol Pot, and many, many more.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 1:28 pm #
fine, steve, we occupy over 100 countries. so what?
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 1:29 pm #
oops
Comment by Ric Locke on 4/23 @ 1:30 pm #
No, steve.
There are three possible versions of the argument:
1) It’s none of our business.
2) It’s more trouble (==more expensive) than it’s worth.
3) They’re better off sans intervention.
No. 1 is flatly a lie, if you belong to the Christian tradition in any way.
No man is an Iland, entire unto its Selfe;
Each of us is part of the Continent, a piece of the Main;
If a Clodd be washed into the Sea, Europe is the lesser,
As much as if a Promontory were, or a Manor of thine or of thy Friends were.
Therefore send not for whom the Bell tolls;
It tolls for Thee.
If you don’t believe that, you don’t belong in Western Civilization; and to the extent you live in it and enjoy the benefits, you are a greedy, egotistical poseur with the morals of a month-old kitten: MINE! FEED ME!
No. 2 is the big one. It ranges from people who are really thinking no. 1 but need an excuse, to being flat unable to do anything, and includes realpolitik and similar “realist” approaches. It is possible to make moral arguments within it.
But you didn’t do that. You went straight to no. 3: They were better off before. And if you assert that, you are asserting that the conditions before were better — and in this case that includes mass murder, the torture and torture-murder of tens (if not hundreds) of thousands, kidnapping, rape, and all the other wonderful diversions Saddam and his bullies (and offspring) got up to. If they were “better off”, then all those things are Good Things of which you approve, and claim moral superiority for approving.
One word is “accomplice”. Another is “accessory”. But in reality, what you are is the wimpy little nerd trailing behind the bully and giving him strokes: “Yea, Spike! Hit ‘em again!” Unfortunately for you, that doesn’t mean you get to bask in the glory of associating with the Great Man, except in your own mind. To the rest of us you’re scum.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 1:32 pm #
Has anyone here read “The Pentagon’s New Map”?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 4/23 @ 1:32 pm #
No man is an island, but I think steve is a peninsula.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/23 @ 1:34 pm #
Somewhat. I think there’s also a big chunk of the Big Man on a White Horse mindset to it as well. Look at Carter’s recent statement to the effect that it’s better to deal with dictators than democratically elected governments because the dictators “speak for all their people”.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 1:35 pm #
no, Patrick, but RTO has….
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 1:36 pm #
everything’s great in Iraq and the Iraqis love us. Just like y’all predicted
Did you not type this ?!
Making shit up requires no countering, steve. Like with the 121 suicides a week article yesterday. 90% of Iraqi’s thought they were better off under Saddam? So ridiculous so as to make it laughable.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 1:37 pm #
I call it oppresseration or occubuilding. Sometimes foster care writ large.
I won’t bother to because that is an idiot poll. How do I know this? Because other than Blacks voting en masse for Democrats there is not another group of national citizens in the world that would agree on ninety percent of anything. It’s a gerrymandered poll probably using some of the very same questionable polling practices that “produced” the since discredited Lancet report that your side likes to vomit on a regular basis.
And you still haven’t dealt with Ric’s contention that by saying the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam that genocide, torture and mass executions were no big deal to you.
Oh, and 90% of French citizens think you are a sissyboy surrender monkey.
Mon Dieu!
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/23 @ 1:37 pm #
Like Florida, “America’s wang”?
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/23 @ 1:39 pm #
I do believe steve himself admitted the “poll” provided no source for the data. If you polled Saddam’s tribe, I have no doubt they’d unanimously say they were now worse off.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 1:40 pm #
they do list some vague locations. Baghdad, Najaf and Anbar… in January 2007…
Comment by mlcoe on 4/23 @ 1:40 pm #
Rob,
You’re right.The cult of personality is big for lefties. They love the idea of the leader leading them into salvation, and streamlining the decision making process.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 4/23 @ 1:42 pm #
“#
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/23 @ 1:37 pm #
No man is an island, but I think steve is a peninsula.
Like Florida, “America’s wangâ€Â?”
Tinier.
Much, much tinier.
Comment by maggie katzen on 4/23 @ 1:44 pm #
darn, it checking my self, in November 2006….
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 1:46 pm #
Hi maggie katzen,
I’m about 25% into it, and it’s fascinating stuff.
What’s fascinating to me is that the grand strategy described is apparently a Bush Administration policy, makes much of the argument above moot, but the President has completely failed to describe it, or sell it to the public.
Patrick
–
Comment by B Moe on 4/23 @ 1:51 pm #
No matter how poorly some policy goes – the people who were most staunchly for it can’t acknowledge that something didn’t go right.
Like Federal meddling in education? Welfare? Affirmative Action? Government housing projects? War on poverty? Obesity? Illiteracy? How about Social Security and Medicare? The Federally enforced healthcare monopoly?
When are we going to start hearing some acknowledgement about these fiascoes?
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 2:09 pm #
Man, we let steve lead us straight down the rabbit hole into Wonderland today, didn’t we?
Comment by Mikey NTH on 4/23 @ 2:13 pm #
How many comments to defend a genocidal dictator?
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 2:13 pm #
“And you still haven’t dealt with Ric’s contention that by saying the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam that genocide, torture and mass executions were no big deal to you.”
I precisely did. You’re just too dim-witted to understand the response.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/23 @ 2:15 pm #
When your audience cannot understand your message, it’s not the fault of the audience.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 2:21 pm #
In fact, steve, the only support you had for your contention that the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam was that idiot poll from 2006. you haven’t nearly explained how genocides, gassings and ecological massacres represented a better life for Iraqi’s.
90% of Croatian citizens think you are ugly. The other 10% want you to dance.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 2:23 pm #
Ric:
You cannot make other people’s arguments for them. Beyond the fallacies of false dilemna and straw men, you’re nothing but a 15 year old with alot of serious-sounding insults.
The idea that life can’t present situations where all alternatives are bad – but not equally so – is so mind numbingly stupid that I really can’t reply without pointing out just how stupid of a point it really is. You are ham-fistedly trying to fit the real and complex world to your flawed Manichean model, and the natural conclusion to the ill-fit is that people who don’t agree with you are great Satans – murderers and the rest.
Sounds like some people I’ve heard of.
again, I appeal to you to grow up, and use non-sanded vaseline.
Steve
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 2:24 pm #
Still haven’t seen any polling evidence out of Texas Blow Job of JD.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 2:31 pm #
Nor will you, asshat, as polling in Iraq is a very dicey business and questionable at best (as shown by the idiot poll you found with your transcendant google-fu.)
Anywho our legitimacy to be in Iraq has been secuired by UN mandate. Polls of random Iraqi citizens don’t mean squat other than the most important ones, which were the three elections. Now I understand that this might be a difficult concept to wrap your kiwi sized brain around but polls don’t determine policy in Iraq. the duly elected government does and they have been very clear that they want us to stay.
So you keep tossing out bullshit polls and unsourced affirmations in the vain hope that your clue musk will attract a clue to you.
90% of Malaysians think you are in infidel and want you beheaded. The other 10% want you to sing karaoke.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/23 @ 2:33 pm #
Dude, you said the Iraqis were better off under Saddam. YOU set the benchmark; YOU said their state then was preferable to their state now:
YOU’RE the one that started the Manichean comparisons — the Iraqis were better off under the dictator that spent more on his palaces than he did on medical care than they are under their present government. You were called on that comparison, now you’re frothing mad that someone pointed out what your comparison means.
OK, so you said you don’t like Saddam. You also said you like the Iraqis living under a government of their own choosing, with a Constitution they wrote and accepted, even less.
Own up to your own words, or admit you overstated your case.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/23 @ 2:34 pm #
Eh? Haven’t you heard? Ever since 2000, opinion polls have been held to be more accurate than actual vote tallies.
Comment by SGT Ted on 4/23 @ 2:38 pm #
needn’t like Saddam to like the occupation even less – or acknowledge that the work-a-day Joe in Iraq was better off under Saddam than now (or over the past 5 years).
Man, what a fucking idiot.
Comment by Ric Locke on 4/23 @ 2:46 pm #
No, steve. No sand in the vaseline, and no strawmen, either; and I’m not the one indulging in childish oversimplification.
YOU made the blanket, unqualified assertion that life in Iraq was better under Saddam than it is now. You then followed it up with the assertion that an unattributed poll showed Iraqis agreeing with you, but you began with the specific claim.
Life under Saddam included mass murder, torture, and such charming minor practices as “rape rooms” designed to shame people by torturing their daughters. Those things are now absent or enormously reduced in scope; by your account, that makes life for Iraqis worse. It therefore follows that the practices made life better, and thus meet with your approval; and that makes you complicit in them, simply too chickenshit to participate in person.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 2:46 pm #
Oh, yea, Rob. How’d those exit polls work for John Frackin’ Kerry? :-)
Oh, silly me! The republicans stole that election too!
Wow, steve that’s absolutely friggin’ BRILLIANT! NO ONE HAS EVER THOUGHT TO CALL ME THAT AND MAKE THE CONNECTION! YOU ARE THE FIRST!!! not
If steve were to actually take some time and explain his reasoning for the “average joe Iraqi” being better off under Saddam then perhaps we would be having a dialogue rather than assertion, detailed rebuttal and toddler temper tantrum. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Shorter steve: I TOLD YOU!!! … and steve …
90% of the Dutch think you smell worse than rotting tulips.
The other 10% just want to kick you with their clogs.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 2:52 pm #
I have an overwhelming vision of steve typing on a Strawberry Shortcake laptop while sitting on a see-saw.
Alone.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 2:55 pm #
“YOU made the blanket, unqualified assertion that life in Iraq was better under Saddam than it is now.”
Yeah – and I stand by that. But YOU erroneously added that I said life under SAddam was good. I never said that. Life under Saddam can be brutal and life under the occupation can be worse. Making that statement in now way endorses what Saddam did. You’re just too simple to understand that.
“Life under Saddam included mass murder, torture, and such charming minor practices as “rape rooms†designed to shame people by torturing their daughters. Those things are now absent or enormously reduced in scope; by your account, that makes life for Iraqis worse. It therefore follows that the practices made life better, and thus meet with your approval and that makes you complicit in them, simply too chickenshit to participate in person.”
This si what your too stupid ot understand Ric. I don’t approve of any of that – but I think what we have now is more widespread. I think both are awful, but the occupation is worse. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
And Chickenshit? Your the internet tough guy here – calling people murderers from the safety of whatever hovel you inhabit. Are you emailing from Iraq? Afganistan?
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 2:56 pm #
steve – my guess is that public opinion polls in war zones are about as reliable as exit polls in the 2004 presidential election.
They also likely say people do not want to be at war. SHOCKA!
Here is a scientific poll on par with the one you used to support for advocacy of Saddam
Q – By a show of hands, how may think that steve is a mendoucheous Leftist that thinks Iraqis were better off when Saddam was using chemical weapons on them, tossing them off buildings, having them raped, disappeared, tortured (real torture), and other such fun things?
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 2:58 pm #
Again: where’s you evidence BJ? Gimme something. I gave you evidence, but you didn’t counter it with other evidence. Oh no. You just said “Couldn’t Be!”. Why don’t you stop talking and start demonstrating.
Now run along and get a link little BJ. Run along.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 2:59 pm #
hand up
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 2:59 pm #
This is why I stopped talking to you JD. YOu’re simple as Ric – just nicer.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 3:00 pm #
And yeah, the Blow Job comment was a little played. Ya got me there.
Comment by alppuccino on 4/23 @ 3:00 pm #
That I do it with humor and mocking is but gravy.
steve,
I believe that’s spelled “butt gravy”.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 4/23 @ 3:01 pm #
Patrick,
My clipping service let me know I was being referred to.
Yes, I have read it and it’s an excellent book even if the author and I had a falling out at his blog. The follow up book, A Future Worth Fighting For, I have not fininshed–it kept getting me riled up, PNM did not do that.
The major criticism I have of the current administration is its utter and abject failure to sell any of it’s policies, plans, or strategies which is a complete failure to support those of us who implement them.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 3:01 pm #
“I believe that’s spelled “butt gravyâ€Â.”
Now I don’t feel so bad for the hacky blow job material….wow that pretty bad!
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 3:02 pm #
rape and torture and murder and chemical weapons on civilians is now more widespread, steve? Care to support that?
Early result of the poll show that 92 percent think steve is almost as mendouceous as the gleenwaldian poofter. 6 percent think it is alpuccino. 2 percent are pissed that we acknowledge its existence.
Comment by BJTexs TW/BP on 4/23 @ 3:02 pm #
Strawman alert! Nobody said that you said life was good under Saddam. You have yet to make your case that life was “less bad” under Saddam than it is under the occupation, especially with the security improvements over the last 6-9 months. Near as I can tell Ric is the only one of the two of you who is actually making an argument while your response is to change the question and make little insulting little references to ric’s maturity.
You got some splainin to do!
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 3:06 pm #
Well, BJ and JD – naturally you agree with Ric, that anyone who thinks as I do is a muderer and torturer who supports Saddam. You’re all of similar cognitive capacities that doens’t allow for any distinctions.
I still haven’t seen any real evidence. I do like JD’s point that you can’t get any good data in Iraq becasue it’s a war zone, but things are going well there. That’s great.
Comment by alppuccino on 4/23 @ 3:06 pm #
No steve. I nailed you to the wall on that one.
STEVE EATS BUTT GRAVY! STEVE EATS BUTT GRAVY!
I gotcha man! I nailed you. I used humor.
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 3:07 pm #
“I used humor.”
In a manner of speaking, I suppose you did.
How you know about the butt gravy DOES freak me out a bit….
Comment by McGehee on 4/23 @ 3:08 pm #
<walks into room>
Are you guys still poking that thing?
Comment by alppuccino on 4/23 @ 3:11 pm #
How you know about the butt gravy DOES freak me out a bit….
I was guessing. You really do eat runny poop? Gross dude!
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 3:16 pm #
OK – I need to go. I’m a little upset that we didn’t get to 200 posts, but I still consider myself the most popular non-neocon here as evidenced by your devotional enmity.
What I’ve learned:
1. While Ric is a dick, simple and a coward, BJ and JD are just simple.
2. Anyone who doesn’t agree with Ric is a murderer and torturer (i.e., Ric = drama queen)
3. I am a murderer and torturer.
4. Ric is a chickenshit
5. I am a little smarmy….
6. There is no such thing as a lesser of two evils. Picking the lesser of the two evils is an outright endorsement of that particular evil.
7. I’m pro-Saddam (never knew that until today – thanks Ric!)
8. I can’t resist hack humor when dealing with someone who’s initials are BJ (but I did get appropriately called out for it).
9. Sand in the vaseline is inadvisable.
Comment by McGehee on 4/23 @ 3:19 pm #
Lisa isn’t going to like that.
Because of course anyone we don’t hate must be a fellow neocon. Like I said, Lisa isn’t going to like that.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 4/23 @ 3:20 pm #
“Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 2:55 pm #
“YOU made the blanket, unqualified assertion that life in Iraq was better under Saddam than it is now.â€Â
Yeah – and I stand by that.”
Yep, a true, unqulaified fucktard.
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 3:20 pm #
steve made a BS assertion, got called on it, and has proceeded to backpedal, obfuscate, look over there, etc …
Your claims steve, your burden of proof.
Polls have closed. Early results. 91 percent think that leftists like steve would prefer the US fail in Iraq, as opposed to acknowledging that things are better. 5 percent think steve is Mona and trying out a new persona so the gleeeens will let it get a piece of their junk. 3 percent think steve likes to fondle himself while watching Barney. 1 percent had opinions of steve so profane that alppucino and thor would blush.
Comment by alppuccino on 4/23 @ 3:23 pm #
thor blushes when cynn talks to him
Comment by RTO Trainer on 4/23 @ 3:32 pm #
Steve, I have commented from Afghanistan before, so maybe I make your moral cut, stupid as such a distinction might be.
What measures of “better” or “worse” would you consider?
http://www.abcnews.go.com/images/PollingUnit/1060a1IraqWhereThingsStand.pdf
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 3:33 pm #
Hi RTO Trainer,
If you liked “The Pentagon’s New Map”, go take a look at this. It’s a movie of a lecture by Thomas Bernett. Really smart sturr.
In fact, it might do all on this thread a bit of good.
Patrick
-
Comment by cranky-d on 4/23 @ 3:37 pm #
I just took a poll, and 100 percent of the respondents thought that steve should go away and never come back, as he appears to add nothing to the conversation. I admit the sample base was very small.
Comment by Ric Locke on 4/23 @ 3:46 pm #
y’know, I do seem to remember a “steve” who responded to any statement of the form “things seem to be going better in Iraq” with plunging denunciations of people who were ignoring the suffering of Iraqis and pretending that it was all kite-flying and singing birds and anyway if it’s so great there why don’t we say we won and come home…
It would appear that he doesn’t care for the same tactic when it’s applied to him, eh?
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Merovign on 4/23 @ 3:50 pm #
Back to the, umm, you know, topic.
I don’t think the photo exhibit is as damaging as the French seem to think it is, but the French have trouble with things like “introspection” so the response isn’t so surprising.
Hypocrisy, that they have no problem with.
And Frankly (get it? Franks? Never mind…), France has never been brought to proper account for what they have done with their “modern colonialist attitudes” in Africa and their dealings with Mid-East terrorists. Some of the attitude seems to be changing with Sarkozy, but we’ll see if that lasts.
Comment by Merovign on 4/23 @ 3:51 pm #
Oh, and as for steve, umber tantrum yellow good for weather Ralph inky dog victory change steep! Like echoes winter queer Algeria jump banter.
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 3:54 pm #
Dear Merovign,
You have to admire the French for one thing: consistency. They’ve *always* been out for themselves. Result? Well, what other WWII loser has a seat at the UN Security Council?
Not saying I like them. Just have to admire their consistency.
There has been a previous remark about their consistency in military operations.
Patrick
–
Comment by Ouroboros on 4/23 @ 4:03 pm #
Forgive me if this story was posted someplace above.. I haven’t got the attention span to read anymore steve related posts..
A French and American general were surveying a battlefield. A bullet strikes the American general, grazing his arm. He shouts “Aide! Bring me my red jacket!”
The French general asks “Why did you do that?”
The American general responds “So my men don’t see that I’m bleeding, and lose hope.”
A second bullet narrowly misses the French general’s ear, and he shouts: “Aide! Bring me my brown trousers!”
Ahahhahahaa.. ahaaa.. a..heh..
Yes an oldie.. but a goodie.
Oh, and while you’re all flingin fancy, smart people words around could someone please work the term “Ontological Paradox” or “Ockham’s Razor” into your post? I have no idea what they mean but I really like the sound of them..
Thanks…
Comment by Ric Locke on 4/23 @ 4:06 pm #
There does exist a larger-than-you-might-think minority of French people who don’t think that way. People like the Frogman yet remain, and even more like my acquaintance of last summer, who was ecstatic at the triumph of Sarkozy: “Now we can back to ze national sport of Frahnce, fucking Americans.”
What’s happened in France is that what you might call the Caric Conspiracy has reached critical mass and taken over, meaning that they’re the only thing visible from outside. Elitists, “intellectuals”, poufs and wankers — the same people who thronged around Sunny Lou, with an attitude and philosophy only superficially different.
I have a suggestion: let us import a shipload of Gauloises, vermouth, and absinthe; I think we can do twisted-wire chairs and tulip glasses out of our own resources, possibly berets as well, and I’m sure somebody can come up with a convincing replica of the deux Chaveaux. Turn in our belt buckles, hats, and boots, spend an afternoon memorizing excerpts from Sartre, and we, too, can sit around in cafés being pretentiously supercilious, thereby gaining the full respect and credence of the entire world.
Hell, it works for the Frogs, why not us?
Regards,
Ric
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 4:07 pm #
What was steve’s point again? Saddam is not like Hitler so the French are teh awesome? I’m not really sure what he’s going for exactly. The point is really, any future foreign policy initiatives undertaken by Democratic or Republican Administrations will have an appendix addressing how to counter predictably treacherous French contrarianism and how to safeguard the initiative from backstabbing little eurofucks generally. I don’t think we’ll be underestimating their fuckeheadedness for many many years to come. This has to count as an overlooked benefit what derived from Operation Iraqi Freedom I think. We’re safer as a nation really being newly fortified with the knowledge that France sucks tyrant cock.
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 4:08 pm #
Oh. Well that’s sort of an unfortunate juxtaposition there.
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 4:09 pm #
Oh wait. Not so much really. I read that first paragraph wrong.
Comment by McGehee on 4/23 @ 4:10 pm #
Wait — steve had a point?
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 4:11 pm #
For real I never quite got what all the steve angstyness was all about.
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 4:15 pm #
I think it’s nice of you guys what tried to help him work through it though. That’s was really kind of a lot above and beyond. Even checking in from Iraq to try and help.
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 4:15 pm #
Oh. *That was* is what I meant. Patience of saints a lot really.
Comment by Jeff G. on 4/23 @ 4:16 pm #
Were this irony an enormous ham sandwich, I’d be dead as Momma Cass.
Whereas steve is still reaching for the Funyons.
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 4:17 pm #
Hi all,
OK, it’s fun to poke fun at French military history – I do it myself. However, I challenge any of you to go to Verdun. If the sacrifice you survey brings no tars to your eyes, you have no soul. Go to the Ecole Militaire metro stop in Paris, head towards the Eiffel Tower, catch sight of the stature of Joffre, read the inscription, and think at least once before having a go at the French.
I think the French, in general, just sort of died militarily after WWI.
Beyond that, well, the French Foreign Legion is as tough a group as you’ll ever encounter. Trust me.
The French have centers of excellence. The problem is that historically they’ve been badly led.
Patrick
–
Comment by RTO Trainer on 4/23 @ 4:20 pm #
Ric, I know where I can lay my hands on a lot of berets. They’re all the same color though.
The French Soldiers I worked with in A’stan were first rate. They were impressed that I could install Windows in French, without knowing French.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 4/23 @ 4:23 pm #
The French had the same downfall, militarilly as the Italians; too much good coffee. We may follow.
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 4:24 pm #
Hi RTO Trainer,
In the immortal words of Dick Emery, “Ooh, you are awful…but I like you!”
Patrick
–
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 4:30 pm #
Oh, Dick Emery.
The Brits. They slay me.
Comment by JD on 4/23 @ 4:31 pm #
Final poll results
89 percent were laughing at steve so hard they were unable to form a response.
7 percent thinks that the Nazi lovin, French would surrender to steve if he took a shower
2 percent are still pissed that you fed the fuckin lying crapwealeslly troll
The other 2 percent were evenly split between calling themselves tyrant cocks when near France, and the rest just want some Funyuns.
Comment by Ric Locke on 4/23 @ 4:32 pm #
Patrick,
Oh, you’re right, of course. It wouldn’t be nearly as much fun if that weren’t so.
But you’re wrong about one thing: yeah, WWI was the culmination of it, but what scarred the French forever was Richelieu. In the ever-popular Science Fiction Con midnight-at-the-bar game of “time machine, .45, and one round”, the good Cardinal would be an excellent suggestion, although I’m not sure that all the results of having the Thirty Years’ War be about twenty-eight years shorter would be good for us.
British Nobility never really got to the point of considering themselves existentially superior, not only to the common ruck but to the rest of the world; the British attitude of superiority extended all the way down to Tommy Atkins. Anybody suggesting that the German nobility owned any kind of moral or intellectual superiority could be immediately reminded of John George of Saxony, whereupon all fall over laughing. It was only French intellectuals who were able to strike that pose (same in French, and the root of poseur) and make it even somewhat stick, and that’s only because of Richelieu, who really was a supergenius — though not at all a nice one.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Rusty on 4/23 @ 4:34 pm #
#68
#
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 12:07 pm #
“soooo, how has it “not happenedâ€Â?â€Â
How free are you when your constantly afraid of being killed? Or afraid your children are going to be killed? Or when you have no economy and therefor no options for what to do with your freedom? That’s not freedom.And it’s real easy for us to sit on our comfy asses and say stuff like that. It’s either naivity or calousness that makes people say stuff like that.
Well shit. I see what the problem right here.
You’re stupid.
Comment by Rusty on 4/23 @ 4:34 pm #
“is”
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 4:36 pm #
Hi Ric,
You’ve reminded me that after the Brits evolved a “Gentry”, while the French got an “Aristocracy.”
There obviously has been a difference.
Patrick
–
Comment by Rusty on 4/23 @ 4:36 pm #
Brown people can’t possible understand or appreciate all the benefits of freedom since the material benefits may be years down the road if at all. Much better they live in slavery. Pretty much sums it up for ya , Steve?
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 4:40 pm #
Hi Ric,
BTW, I just finished “Kim.” I am a huge Kipling fan.
I think RTO Trainer wold appreciate this.
Patrick
–
Comment by mlcoe on 4/23 @ 4:46 pm #
How about this poll from March 2008
ABC/BBC/ARD/NHK POLL – IRAQ FIVE YEARS LATER: WHERE THINGS STAND
EMBARGOED FOR RELEASE AFTER 6 a.m. Monday, March 17, 2008
Security Gains Reverse Iraq’s Spiral
Though Serious Problems Remain
Improved security and economic conditions have reversed Iraqis’ spiral of despair,
sharply improving hopes for the country’s future. Yet deep problems remain, in terms of
security, living conditions, reconciliation and political progress alike.
Fifty-five percent of Iraqis say things in their own lives are going well, well up from 39
percent as recently as August. More, 62 percent, rate local security positively, up 19
points. And the number who expect conditions nationally to improve in the year ahead
has doubled, to 46 percent in this new national poll by ABC News, the BBC, ARD
German TV and the Japanese broadcaster NHK
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:eMK4VyKQmWgJ:www.uniraq.org/documents/Poll_Iraq_five_years_later_March2008.pdf
Comment by RTO Trainer on 4/23 @ 5:05 pm #
Yeah, Patrick, that’s a favorite.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 4/23 @ 5:06 pm #
mlcoe, that’s the same one I linked to above. It’s a good ‘un.
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 5:11 pm #
Hi RTO Trainer,
I’m dropping off to watch “The Big Lebowski”. Gotta prepare for the gathering in Louisville, thie coming July.
If there’s anything I can do for you, ping me. PocArBuile@LivinInAmerica.com.
Patrick
–
Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 5:12 pm #
Jesus Christ you people love me. My every post, doted on and over.
Has anyone ever worked harder to take someone out of context as you folks (and Jeff @ 205 is particularly funny – but at least there it’s obvious he didn’t read the posts that preceded it)?
And all for me. Wow.
OK, I better go before I get too full of myself
Ric’s favorite Murderous Torturer,
Steve
Comment by Patrick Carroll on 4/23 @ 5:15 pm #
Hi Steve,
You are tiresome, and predictable.
Patrick
–
Comment by mlcoe on 4/23 @ 5:18 pm #
Whoops, RTO I should have seen that.
Anyhow, at some level surveys shouldn’t matter. You can always cherry pick this or that. The problem starts with Steve’s assumption, which is a classically Marxist assumption, that economic well being is the most important thing a society can provide for you. Steve may not be a Marxist, but he has clearly taken on this point of view.
I don’t think it is the most important thing. I think freedom is. Even if the Chinese end up with a higher GDP per capita, I would rather live in a free society. I think many Iraqis would agree. Fortunately, I won’t have to make that choice because freedom leads to wealth.
Comment by alppuccino on 4/23 @ 5:19 pm #
OK, I better go before I get too full of myself
So you’re saying you eat your own runny poo. That’s just sick.
Comment by cranky-d on 4/23 @ 5:21 pm #
In that case you should’ve stopped coming by about… some time before you first started coming by.
Toodles!
Comment by happyfeet on 4/23 @ 5:37 pm #
Who I love is not steve really but more Winona Ryder cause I think she’s neat and also I can’t believe how mean everyone was to her after that one misunderstanding at Saks. Also I love George W. Bush and Tracy Ullman. But not steve. And also Ellen Barkin.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 4/23 @ 6:25 pm #
I have ants all over my downstairs right now. Not carpenter ants as that would be a really bad problem, but pavement ants. They do no harm but are a minor nuisance. Steve kind of reminds me of them.
Comment by cranky-d on 4/23 @ 6:38 pm #
I have a mouse who will not leave, and refuses to eat the peanut butter in the traps so he won’t die either. I don’t really want him to die, but I don’t want him eating my food either.
He is much better than steve, though.
Comment by Mikey NTH on 4/23 @ 7:18 pm #
My God, 229 comments at my last count, and all in response to steve, who has a problem with the removal/demise of a genocidal dictator.
The moral blackhole that steve is outstrips nishi/matoko/gamera any day of the week. That is evil; no excuse – that is evil.
Comment by Patrick Dempsey's Hair on 4/23 @ 7:37 pm #
It’s a lot lamentable. For real there’s no excuse.
Comment by Jeff G. on 4/23 @ 11:02 pm #
I read the posts before, steve, the ones where you were talking in absolutes about US failure and Iraqis being better off before the invasion — and about the people commenting here as if they were one big giant singular entity.
Very black and white.
Which you seemed to have forgotten by the time you were lecturing people on Manichean paradigms and nuance.
I found that rather charming, in a Corky kind of way.
Comment by Adriane on 4/24 @ 3:07 am #
Orange oil might help you with the ants. Every summer I run/splash a line of enviro-happy, household cleaner with (real) orange oil around the doors to keep the ants out. They help themselves to my cats’ food, otherwise.
Comment by Rusty on 4/24 @ 4:55 am #
Manichean
I had to look that up.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 4/24 @ 6:54 am #
Another ant killer — mix sugar, water, and borax. Boil that down until it’s a syrup, and put small amounts of the syrup on bits of aluminum foil where the ants will find it. Keep that topped up until the ants don’t show up anymore.
They can’t taste the borax, but it eventually poisons them. Since they take it back to the nest, the queen is also poisoned. Worked for me a couple of years ago, even though I used a commercial version of the syrup mix.
Comment by Mutant Pacifist on 4/28 @ 3:23 pm #
steve: “Comment by steve on 4/23 @ 11:58 am #
This notion that there’s some mutual exclusivity of suffering between Saddam and the occupation is a misconception. I needn’t like Saddam to like the occupation even less – or acknowledge that the work-a-day Joe in Iraq was better off under Saddam than now (or over the past 5 years).”
I don’t know where Steve got his poll, but I would like to point out that he’s right about one thing. Just because you get out of one bad situation, doesn’t mean you don’t get into another, equally bad or worse situation.
Look at Poland. The Nazis left — and the Commies rolled in. Goodbye death camps, hello gulags. Not exactly a complete liberation.
Where Steve is wrong, is assuming that the American military is the source of the Iraqis suffering. Quite the contrary. We overthrew Saddam and removed the Baathists from power, and into that power-vacuum, al-Q rushed in and took over many areas. With al-Q torturing, blowing up people, forcing men to grow beards and women to wear veils, refusing to let people go about their economic life, raping women and boys, beheading children, blowing up mosques, churches, houses, cars and people, no wonder the Iraqis are miserable.
But the very last thing we should do is pull out our military and let al-Q take over the whole country.
Btw, anyone who hasn’t read Michael Yon’s book, Moment of Truth in Iraq, should go out and read it right now. He really explains the situation well.
steve also said, “Some cultural and social processes can’t be accelerated from without regardless of the best of intentions, and I think that’s the ultimate lesson in Iraq.”
I couldn’t disagree more. Suppose the Iraqis had overthrown Saddam by themselves. That would have taken probably ten years — maybe 30 if one of his sons had come to power. Then ten years of civil war, with several million dead. Then, al-Q or some similar group would *still* have tried to take control, and probably succeeded, and that would be another 10-30 years of tyranny, genocide and war.
No matter how bad Iraq looks, it would have been much worse off without an American presence. You have only to look at Rwanda/Congo to see what the alternative is.
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