March 24, 2008

Dems 2008: Revisiting Obama’s faith-based appeals [Karl]

In order to better understand the controversy over Barack Obama’s relationship with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and the Trinity United Church of Christ — as well as its inevitability — it might be useful to take a brief stroll down Memory Lane.

In June 2007, Obama was the first of the Democratic presidential contenders to launch a religious outreach website.  At the time, Joshua DuBois, Obama’s Director of Religious Affairs, told the press:

Barack’s faith has long informed his values and public service, as it does for millions of Americans.  We’ve seen overwhelming support from people of faith on this campaign so we wanted to build a web community to help grassroots supporters connect with one another, tell folks a little about what Barack believes, share stories and ideas, and organize to change our country for the better.

Later that month, Obama told a a national meeting of the United Church of Christ that some right-wing evangelical leaders have exploited and politicized religious beliefs in an effort to sow division.

In September 2007,  the Obama campaign launched “40 Days of Faith and Family” in South Carolina — “an opportunity for people of faith to come together, across racial and denominational lines, to talk about how they live their faith outside the four walls of the church, what they want to see from their presidential candidates and how Obama’s faith informs how he thinks about the issues of our time.”  Indeed, by January 2008, Obama was making overt religious appeals to South Carolina voters — with the approval of lefty bloggers like Rick Ellensburg and Atrios.

In early February 2008, the Obama campaign did a mass e-mailing to people who do religious outreach and charity work, which Greg Sargent properly characterized as “appealing directly to religious voters by putting the call for a new politics in a religious context.”  At about the same time, Obama gave a speech in Ohio claiming that the Sermon on the Mount justifies his support for legal recognition of same-sex unions.

Even the speech Obama gave on the Wright-Trinity controversy opens with Obama suggesting that Americans are “stained” by the Original Sin of slavery as allowed by the founders.  Indeed, much of what Obama said in that speech about why he joined Trinity and the need for everyone to be their brother’s and sister’s keeper are things Obama has been saying from the outset.  Prof. Joseph M. Knippenberg analyzed these and other Obama comments last month, concluding that:

Obama’s religion seems to be emphatically political and only secondarily spiritual; he “believes in” the “power” of “the African-American religious tradition.” The church is the best means of organizing, embodying, and empowering a community to pursue its earthly ends.

***

Stated another way, Obama’s view of the role of the church elides the difference between religion and politics. His religion is emphatically a political religion, calling us not only to charitable action in civil society, but to political activism, justifying not only prophetic witness but also governmental coercion.

***

Obama speaks as if the first move of someone faithful to God’s word is to call for government action, not to act directly through his or her own charitable efforts. Those who don’t engage in political action of the sort he approves are apparently hypocrites, satisfied with mere words. His religious commitments are a kind of conversation-stopper, as the late Richard Rorty once said.

Note also that the action he calls for is aimed at satisfying the bodily needs of those who receive the help. As a matter of social or political action, he’s not concerned with saving souls.

***

For him, religion is principally a source of reformist energy, to be checked in its excesses by a rationalist, non-majoritarian judiciary. The reformist energy that supports and promotes the agenda of the Democratic Party is to be welcomed and harnessed. Those who have other ideas in mind can be treated with a disarming respect, as conversation partners who can be persuaded but won’t be permitted to persuade. Or they can be criticized and resisted as irrational, divisive, and unconstitutional, not to say hypocritical and un-Godly.

Without naming it — and perhaps without knowing it – Prof. Knippenberg describes major features of the sort of liberation theology upon which Obama’s church is founded, particularly the part about eliding the difference between religion and politics.

In sum, Obama courted the faith community.  He entreated people of faith to learn what he believes.  He made overtly religious appeals to voters.  He gave interviews in which he elides the difference between religion and politics.  He has invoked Scripture in explaining political positions.  Given this history, the Wright-Trinity controversy was bound to arise, even in the absence of the Rev. Wright’s more hateful and incendiary comments.  Obama can pick whether he would prefer the analogy about sowing and reaping or the one about chickens and roosting, but the longer he chooses to stonewall questions about his religion, instead of addressing it in the manner of JFK or Mitt Romney, the less credible he will seem.

Posted by Karl @ 2:28pm
179 comments | Trackback

Comments (179)

  1. Duh, Karl. He’d like to use his religion to gain supporters, but we’re not allowed to use his religion against him. Because he doesn’t believe all the wacky stuff anyway. Just the mainstream stuff, even though he doesn’t go to a mainstream church. And, he’d like to not get into specifics because he’s already address this issue.

    Now, can’t we talk about more important stuff?

  2. Freaking brilliant, Karl.

    Expected response ? Bbbbbuuuuttt … HAGEE !!!!!!!!!

  3. I thought he did a big ole address on the whole thing. And he has, as you have noted, spoken quite a bit about being a Christian. He is a Baptist. Just because you labeled him some sort of “subset” of Christian Baptist does not mean he is one.

    I am thinking that the LEAST important thing on his list is trying to please some right-wing bloggers who wouldn’t vote for him even if a naked, writhing, sulphurous Satan were running as the Republican candidate for president.

    Shorter version: You don’t matter.

    It is the “centrist” who matters. If you can manage to give them the creeps about Obama’s Dangerous Covert Secret Blacktacularness, then you can stop his blackomentum. But it is going to be tough, since most fence sitting average american types don’t even bother with blogs, let alone partisan blogs. They are going to watch Oprah, and the Sunday morning talk shows. And they all LLLLLOOOOOOOOVVVVVVEEEE Obama. It is kind of the same as it was with Bill Clinton. The press loved him. They convinced the unwashed masses that he was indeed lovable. And he was loved all the way through two terms and an impeachment. The Billster had high 70s approval ratings up until the Clinton machine started showing their very hard asses to their democratic primary opponents.

    I am thinking that Obama (who, incidentally, won his Senate seat by the virtue of his opponent’s craptacularness) will ride a similar wave of affection. Obliterating his doddering, decrepit opponent* (like the unfairly maligned George Bush, Sr.).

    We will see.

    *I might be completely off base with this because McCain, unlike the elder Bush, has a very easy, chummy relationship with the press. If Obama doesn’t start hosting some barbeques, fishfries, or chitlin hoe-downs, he might be fucked.

  4. Lisa – that is a sad commentary. In at least 2 respects.

  5. I matter so little that Lisa feels compelled to comment in his defense — a defense I would take more seriously if she did not misidentify Obama as a Baptist.

    To respond, BO did not do a whole big speech about it — he did a whole big speech to distract from it. He did a speech primarily about race, not religion. That Lisa is confused about this is attributable to either (a) her general confusion; or (b) the way in which Black Liberation Theology also tends to conflate race and religion; or (c) (a) and (b).

    And I’m not labeling him. He’s a long-standing member of a church that has a public vision statement, and whose founder and members are pretty clear about it. Lisa, had she bothered to look into it, would know this, instead of misidentifying him as a Baptist.

    I am also somewhat amused that Lisa thinks BO’s problem may be that he’s not chummy enough with the press — a topic I have covered many times… and of which this issue is part and parcel. BO could have given a JFK/Romney-type speech and likely have been off the hook (even if he had to dance around a lot of unpleasantness). Instead, most people don’t think he addressed the issue, and his unfavorables continue to rise.

  6. Obama will never be fucked. He’s a populist. Karl can ride a pogo stick and yodel until he needs to breath into a paperbag to calm himself for all I care. Obama smokes, drinks, eats buffalo wings and plays poker. Obama has a mean wife, two smart ass kids, asshole friends and a grandmother who makes racist remarks. He’s one of us. We are him. I love Obama!

  7. You don’t matter

    How inclusive of you.

    They are going to watch Oprah, and the Sunday morning talk shows. And they all LLLLLOOOOOOOOVVVVVVEEEE Obama.

    Because they don’t know him yet. They just like the branding without knowing the ingredients.

  8. Obama would have made a really crummy president anyway I think. The media was bound to start celebrating early on in November with teh Happy Times Are Here Again and the economy would have already been more better and the Katrina victims would be laughing and playing and the world would already love America bunches and then by January for the inauguration there would have been nothing left what needed teh changin’.

  9. As with Lisa, thor needs to see me as agitated. But he knows what I sound like agitated, and he knows this ain’t it.

  10. I am thinking that the LEAST important thing on his list is trying to please some right-wing bloggers who wouldn’t vote for him even if a naked, writhing, sulphurous Satan were running as the Republican candidate for president.

    Shorter version: You don’t matter.

    Now … if I made same argument in regards to Republicans and blacks – only 7% of which identify as Republican …

  11. Ouch. Lisa got thwunked.

  12. Another proof nietchze, erm, nishi.

  13. but ….what is O’s religion?

    creole said:

    First, let’s get this “religion” label out of the way. BLT is not a religion. It is an interpretation of the American black experience through the lens of a very specific Christian interpretation as posited by James Cone. It is a belief system or framework. Note the wording, it is the “basis” for TUCC’s vision. It is also not a denomination, because there is not an institutional structure. But all of this is academic.

    isnt the religion you are accusing O of “exploiting” simple Chritianity (see, im bein polite)?
    what is the difference between O exploiting christianity and mccain exploiting christianity via hagee?

  14. yes Lisa, i thot O was a baptist too, but the only religion he has claimed is christian.
    TUCC is technically classified as a non-denominational christian church, since BLT is not a denomination.

  15. Louis Farrakhan and Jeremiah Wright would probably say the difference is that white people fucking suck and should have all fucking died on September 11 if there were any justice. Hagee just wants people to send them their moneys. It’s totally different.

  16. …what is the difference between O exploiting christianity and mccain exploiting christianity via hagee?

    Obama makes you wet?

  17. no feets hagee wants us to pre-emptive bombbombbomb Iran.
    a dangerous endorsement for mccain to take actually.

  18. I want us to bomb Iran too. They bug me.

  19. Comment by B Moe on 3/24 @ 3:54 pm #

    Obama makes you wet?

    You got something against wet waffles?

  20. They been killin our doods.

  21. hagee wants us to pre-emptive bombbombbomb Iran.

    Do you have a cite for that, nishi? You keep saying he wants this, but nowhere in any of your links does Hagee say any such thing.

  22. a naked, writhing, sulphurous Satan were running as the Republican candidate for president.

    That’s an unfair characterization. John McCain has kept his clothes on.

    So far.

  23. They just like the branding

    RACIST!!!

    …’cause I’ve been told Obama is a black dude. And I’ve also been told you don’t mention branding when talking about black dudes.

  24. Who is creole and why should I give a fuck what he says about BLT?

  25. jeez feets…..well i dont.
    bombing Iran will just radicalize the iranian population against us.
    right now they may yet rise up an throw off the tyrant ayatollahs.
    especially if pilgrims to Karbala bring back glowin tales of the democracy in Iraq.
    and we cant get all the sites with an aircampaign anyways.
    the sights are hardened and embedded in populations, usually in student populations at universities.
    iranian students are our greatest allies.
    bombin their universities would be bad form.

  26. I was kinda wondering that too. I’m sure he’s a nice person and all, but…

  27. No, I don’t hear the redundant mating call of a race baitor yet.

    Change we can believe in. Yes We Can.

  28. It might be a bad strategy to bomb Iran but I could support it cause they’re killin our doods. Also, Iran with a nuke would be really bad form I think. They’re led by depraved weirdos is why. They should get more better leaders, and then there wouldn’t be any need to bomb them. But you’re probably right on most of it. This is why they just let me do marketing stuff and not make the bombing decisions.

  29. sites, sry

    i think there are 17 at the last count.

    i quoted this before.
    CUFI lobbies congress to increase Israels borders and pre-emptively bomb Iran.
    theres dozens of articles about this.

    Hagee, who serves as head pastor of the 18,000-member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, hosts his own television program that is seen twice a day on TBN. He argues that the United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God’s plan for both Israel and the West. Shortly after the release of his book last January, he launched Christians United for Israel (CUFI), a lobbying organization intended, he says, to be a Christian version of the powerful American Israel Public Affairs Committee. With CUFI, which Hagee has said will cause a “political earthquake,” the televangelist aims to put the political organizing muscle of the conservative evangelical movement behind his grand plan for a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming of Christ.

    While Washington insiders wonder and worry whether President Bush really is bent on a military strike against Iran, Hagee already has spent months mobilizing the shock troops in support of another war. As diplomats, experts, and pundits debate how many years Iran will need to develop a viable nuclear weapon, Hagee says the mullahs already possess the means to destroy Israel and America. And although Bush insists that diplomatic options are still on the table, Hagee has dismissed pussyfooting diplomacy and primed his followers for a conflagration.

  30. mcgeehee we had a huge argument on Karl’s thread.
    in the discussion we agreed that creole was correct in his definition of BLT as a political system, not a religion.

  31. Oh. Well, clearly Jesus is involved. That makes it a religion. A very political religion. But either/or, really … What Baracky needs to understand at this point is that he’s about as unitey as anal warts.

  32. Hagee is just as whack as Wright, just inna different way.

  33. feets, just how is Jesus involved?

  34. Oh. Sure. But Hagee’s relationship to McCain is vastly different than the Black Liberation Theology Mind Control that Wright exerts on Baracky.

  35. Jesus is involved cause that’s how Wright’s church gets tax-exempt status, under creole’s definition anyway.

  36. instead of addressing it in the manner of JFK or Mitt Romney, the less credible he will seem.
    oh, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahaha
    omg, all Mitt said was mormonism is just xianity by another name, hehe…..
    oh u guyz kill me.

    believe me, if Mitt runs for prez u will totally find out just how whack mormonism is, and how radically different from mainstream xianity.

  37. but Wright’s church is a non-denominational christian church feets.
    it is not the church of BLT.

  38. the MSM will see it as their duty.

  39. Sure, Hagee is whack. And if he, or a member of his church runs for Pres – I won’t vote for ‘em.

  40. the Black Liberation Theology Mind Control that Wright exerts on Baracky.

    you see? theres that.
    myself, i dont see that O has given any evidence of being mind controlled.
    all u got so far is four words.

  41. “church is a non-denominational christian church”

    Dumber than Lisa is a tough place to get to but you managed it with aplomb. What would you imagine (were that within your capabilities) that “UCC” meant? (It’s OK to google it up.)

  42. carin, feets said hagee just wants to give mccain money.
    im sayin, mccain might mebbe should be a bit careful about taking it, especiallya fter his beachboyz cover.

  43. I know you’re the one with the high IQ, but -believe it or not – I (as I’m sure others here) know a rather lot about Mormons. I’ve even spent a significant amount of time IN their church.

    And, I don’t know how many times it needs to be mentioned that Wright’s church is GUIDED by BLT. They sell the Cones book in it’s store. Wright refers to it. Check it out.

  44. I know, but it doesn’t matter, nishi. Baracky can’t disown him.

  45. is church of christ a denomination?
    im not sure.

  46. oh – sorry – i could have done the pronoun thingies better earlier. Hagee just wants people who watch him on the tv to give his church their money is what that was supposed to mean.

  47. Wright’s church is GUIDED by BLT
    carin that still doesnt make it a religion or a denomination.

  48. nishi:

    With all due respect to creole this: Theology: logos=study of Theos=God or religion.

    BLT is an intimate part of religion from Obama’s church’s perspective. Cone has been quoted like a dozen different times that Christianity from the point of view of the black experience in America supports a God whose mind lingers over the oppressed giving them sanctification over the white “devils.” There is a religious, doctrinal justification for BLT in his black Christian church (and BTW, for liberation theology in many churches. My denomination, PCUSA, has endless debates about whether to recognize LT as an essential doctrinal tenet, no different from Jesus’ divinity or communion.)

    These are the plain facts that you attempt to obscure by quoting an anonymous commentator who is flat wrong and by constantly repeating untruths that suit your unabashed Obama love.

  49. nice try feets.

  50. I understood what you mean, Happy.

  51. United Church of Christ, a mainline Protestant denomination in the United States formed in 1957

    From your own link, nishi. Reading is fundamental.

  52. bjtex, still….BLT is neither a religion nor a denomination.
    it may be the study of religion or the study of god, but is it is not a recognized denomination.
    it is not publically recognized as a religion.

  53. but..there is theres like 20 UCC definitions.
    and it can mean nondenominational.
    it could mean that one i guess.
    still the denomination of TUCC is not Black Liberation Theology.
    cuz its not a denomination, not a religion.

  54. i quoted this before.
    CUFI lobbies congress to increase Israels borders and pre-emptively bomb Iran.
    theres dozens of articles about this.

    There are dozens of articles by people telling me what they think Hagee is saying, but no one is offering up any direct quotes. That tends to make me a bit suspicious, especially when all I can find if Hagee making predictions. Predicting is not advocating. If he is actually advocating, I would like to know, but I would prefer it in his own words.

  55. carin, the MSM will strive mightily to educate us all just how different mormonism is from mainstream xianity.
    and there are many xians that fear mormons an wud never vote for one.

  56. hehe, read his stupid books then.
    i recommend Jerusalem Countdown.

  57. I never, ever thought I would miss actus. This isn’t a TTP, it’s much more akin to feets’ ‘anal wart’. Although perhaps somewhat less desirable, on the whole.

  58. lets try this again.
    Karl is all j’accuse! on O for religious outreach.
    wat religion is O outreachin on?

  59. it may be the study of religion or the study of god, but is it is not a recognized denomination.
    it is not publically recognized as a religion.

    So fucking what? Why are you so fucking obsessed with whether or not it meets some strict definition of religion you have come up with? I don’t give a rat’s ass what they call it, it still has no place in my political world.

  60. im the new evolutionary stage of actus.
    im a TTTP
    a Transgenic Talkin Telephone Pole.

  61. read his stupid books then.
    i recommend Jerusalem Countdown.

    I have better things to do, and I am not making the accusations. You are. And you can’t back them up, so what does that make you?

  62. cuz Karl said O is exploitin his religion.
    wat’s his religion?

  63. Karl is all j’accuse! on O for religious outreach.
    wat religion is O outreachin on?

    Now I see. You don’t have a leg to stand on so you are resorting to sophomoric debating tricks. Not impressive.

  64. oh i backed them up.
    yup, American Prospect and a dozen other sources are wrong, that isnt wat kindly old pastor hagee means at all.
    im not readin that foul twodigit book.
    i think theres pretty much a consensus.

  65. im not readin that foul twodigit book.
    i think theres pretty much a consensus.

    You are a fool.

  66. That you don’t recognize BLT as a denomination doesn’t change the fact that Obama goes to a church that hates whitey. It is what it is, and if you’d listened to Pastor Moss’ last couple of sermons, you’d know that they’re girding for holy war. Tolerance is not on their agenda.

    BTW, I just listened to Obama talking about the kids with the bows in their hair at his church…

  67. cuz Karl said O is exploitin his religion.
    wat’s his religion?

    The one that goes on at Trinity…BLT and all.

  68. I don’t practice Santeria
    I ain’t got no crystal ball
    Well I had a million dollars
    But I’d, I’d spend it all….

  69. OK, I officially refuse to comment on or read any thread in which nishi invests itself. She just refuses to answer any reasonable question; when she’s faced with irrefutable evidence against her claims, she either dances away in her own special way, or posits once again her superior intellect. I’ve had enough, nishi, you win. You’ve sucked the life out of the last thread for me.

  70. wat’s his religion?

    What Rev. Wright is preaching.

  71. And what he has given tens of thousands of tax exempt money to.

  72. The thing is, Baracky did not have the courage to say oops my bad for accidentally going to the hate whitey church for twenty years. He decided to say that it’s not crackpotty, but it is. If he doesn’t think that anti-American hateful church is not crackpotty, then his judgment with respect to other anti-American crackpots like Chavez and Ahmadinejad is really a lot suspect. He needs to learn how to tell crackpotty things from normal things. Maybe if we made him some flashcards M’chelle could help him practice to where he knew the difference.

  73. Last I heard, the “United Church of Christ” was a specific Christian denomination, like the Methodists, Episcopalians and…Baptists. Not the same church, nor do they share the same set of theological rules and interpretations of the Bible, etc. But then, none of the Christian (or for that matter Jewish, Muslim, etc) denominations do.

    Indeed, from what I’ve heard (never attended one myself) the UCC is one of the more liberal/lefty Christian denominations; certainly a label the Baptists don’t share.

    As far as us “right-wing bloggers” not mattering, here is a little injection of truth that is just about guaranteed to make Lisa’s head explode. And that is that the “Black vote” does not matter either, at least insofar as presidential elections go.

    As we all know, blacks vote, lemming-like, and by over 90% for whomever the Dims put up for president, and it has been ever thus. Yet one can look back just over the past nearly 40 years worth of presidential elections and see how many Republicans have won elections, often by landslides, for all the difference the black vote has made.

    This is probably why the Repubs have never made any huge efforts to court the black vote, because such efforts would be largely a waste of time. For as long as anyone can remember, the Democrats, and their wholly-owned subsidiary, the black religious establishment (as embodied by the Reverend Wright and his sucessor) have been telling the black American electorate that the Repubs are all white devils intent on bringing back Jim Crow, segregation, lynchings, miscegenation (sp?) laws, etc, and of course take away their welfare checks. And they’ve been swallowing this hook, line and sinker for generations.

    Personally, I don’t give a royal rat’s ass what color Baracky is, any more than I care what Hillary has hanging on her chest or between her legs. The sad simple fact is that they are both raging socialists, and for that reason alone are non-starters as far as I’m concerned. That Obama doesn’t mind a bit of race-baiting along the way is no surprise (any more than Hillary will hesitate to wave her politically correct pudenda around when it suits her), as that is a time-honored tactic in the Democrat/Socialist playbook.

    Put that in your bong and smoke it, honey…:)

  74. I doubt Hussein’s large ears could take the boxing Michelle would administer during practice.

  75. Obama supports a form of nominal Christianity very much akin to that espoused by the Aryan Brotherhood and the KKK. If everyone wore sheets and hoods they could become an ecumenical movement unto themselves.

  76. The only consensus is the one that you formed with yourself.

  77. hagee is a controversial pastor within the evangelical community and to the best of my understanding, lobbed in an endorsement of McCain for political ends; I do not believe that Hagee and McCain have had any relationship, personal or pastoral. McCain is perhaps the least religious candidate, of all stripes, since Kerry.

    Wright and his church are intimately connected to BO; BO has jumped through hoops to emphasize how much his church means to him.

    His church is overtly political, and by any reading, seems to support a level of reason usually associated with Scientology.

    Obama’s blacktacularness is the least of his problem. The more that people see how this guy really rolls, and who he rolls with, the more he seems like a liberal with a chip on his shoulder or something he doesnt want us to know. None of which is gonna get him those red states he needs once people see what a tool he and his staff are.

    Oh and Lisa–Im No Bush fan. An awful president who has made a pudding of everything he touches (save for the tax cuts). The more I know about Obama, the more I like voting for McCain.

  78. promotes the agenda of the Democratic Party is to be welcomed and harnessed.

    chicken or the egg?
    i think the democratic party agenda was there first.

    well B Moe, then the American Prospect is a fool, and the jerusalem post too i guess
    Hagee:
    I believe that Iran is a threat to Western civilization. I believe their president means it when he says “Israel should be wiped off the map.”

    I believe that we are exactly where we were in the middle 30s when Hitler was talking about the world without Jews. We have a new Hitler, in the Middle East. He’s the president of Iran. We need to take him very seriously.

    I would hope the United States would join Israel in a military preemptive strike to take out the nuclear capability of Iran for the salvation of Western civilization. It is as important to America as it is to Israel.

    At CUFI’s “Washington-Israel Summit” on July 16, 2007, John Hagee called for a pre-emptive military strike against Iran.
    As you know, Iran poses a threat to the State of Israel that promises nothing less than a nuclear holocaust. I have been saying on national television, in churches and auditoriums across America it is 1938; Iran is Germany and Ahmadinejad is the new Hitler. Ladies and gentlemen we must stop Irans nuclear threat and stop it now and stand boldly with Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. The only way to win a nuclear war is to make certain it never starts.

    from the CUFI website
    his own words.

  79. I would hope the United States would join Israel in a military preemptive strike to take out the nuclear capability of Iran for the salvation of Western civilization.

    I’d wish those pilots happy hunting, and I suspect a majority of Americans would feel likewise.

    And you?

  80. It’s easy to call for a strike on Iran when you know a man of temperance and wisdom is leading the country, nishi. I wouldn’t read too much into that.

  81. well pablo like i ‘splained to feets, it be very dumb.
    and we wud likely killseveral thousand ppl even if we didnt mean to.
    but i guess thats ok, cuz they sand niggers anyways.

  82. feets, hagee endorsed mccain, not GW.

  83. Shorter version: You don’t matter.

    Even shorter version: In your dreams.

    Obama is done. Sorry.

  84. I think that the nishidiot is just pissed that she and her liberal fellow travelers have not been able to tie McCain to Hagee in the manner in which Baracky tied himself to Wright.

  85. Obama suggesting that Americans are “stained” by the Original Sin of slavery as allowed by the founders

    oblig.: Speak for yourself, Whitey.

    Actual comment: I thought only Catholics, after St. Augustine, believed in Original Sin as it’s understood when it’s capitalized.

    I CAN’T TELL YOU PEOPLE APART!

  86. Right nishi, but his call for attacking Iran was separate from endorsing McCain. I just mean it’s easy to call for an attack on Iran when you’re a buffoonish fat sweaty man no one takes seriously. You can call for anything you like really.

  87. but i guess thats ok, cuz they sand niggers anyways.

    oh, pardon, muslim sand niggers.

  88. nishidiot – Why are you a racist?

  89. No. Iranians are cool. They live here a lot down the way. There’s even an Iranian nightclub a couple blocks from here. They’re very nice people even if they all drive better cars than me. A lot it’s cause they mostly live with mom and dad until they pay off their BMW.

  90. That’s what I tell myself anyway.

  91. nejad is really bright, u kno?
    he suffers greatly from SMS (shortman syndrome), but he put hardened nuclear research sites under the universities.
    so to destroy them we have to destroy the university campus’, even if they are evacuated.
    so we loose sympathy with our greatest allies, the students.

  92. mcgeehee we had a huge argument

    …in which, I take it, you participated?

    That would be why I skipped over it. I think you sensed I was skipping your threads and that’s why you tried to slander me in that 400-plus thread a while back.

  93. You will notice that in all of those apparent quotes, Hagee is advocating for a pre-emptive strike for the national security of the US and Israel. Religion is not used to justify it. A lot of people of various religions agree with the thinking he is espousing, in fact.

  94. If someone were to decide to bomb Iran they could count on my support I think. I’m a team player like that.

  95. nejad’s likely just dyin for us to do it.
    to bring on the madhi.
    just like hagee wantin to get his Rapture on.
    the irony.
    we have idiots on both sides tryin to engineer the apocalypse.

  96. I don’t think nishi gives a shit either way. She’s only here to yank chains.

    I refuse to engage “the griefer” any more after #80. It went past a situation like laying on your back tossing a ball up and catching it, to tossing a balloon full of piss.

    Nishi, I don’t know what you look like, but you’re ugly.

  97. She’s only here to yank chains.

    You mean she’s a troll? Wasn’t there somebody here saying that a couple of weeks ago? I wonder who that could have been?

  98. wat slander?
    u said teh gay is similiar to alcoholism.
    locke said it was like typhoid.
    the implication is teh gay is BAD.
    it wud be libel anyways, written.
    like i said, Here There Be Homophobes.

  99. Neither one of them said what you attribute to them, nishidiot. You are a mendoucheous liar.

  100. Yeah, but they’ll listen to me McGehee! ;)

  101. wat i look like
    from my old blog, when i was still in school.

  102. What sounds good is Jack in the Box tacos, but I kind of ate a lot at Easter.

  103. nishidiot – Why are you a racist?

    Because Daddy only paid attention to her when she threw temper tantrums.

  104. wat i look like

    To me, you will always be the one on the left.

  105. just like hagee wantin to get his Rapture on.
    the irony.
    we have idiots on both sides tryin to engineer the apocalypse.

    And just like that it is back to her fantasy narrative. Your whole life is a religion, nishi. Unfounded beliefs and assumed truths.

  106. Touchy touchy. LOL.

    Seriously, I know all politics is local, but let’s not get too personal. Yes, that was a thwunking. But I am not sure why. That would be what we call an overreaction.

    I am stating a simple fact: No one in the Obama camp gives two diddly squats what you think about his religion. He is some kind of bible thumper. He goes to church and pours soup into bowls for the homeless on holidays and builds homeless shelters during the Spring. That is all people care to know. Obama will win or lose based on whether he or McCain can woo the media. Period. All this other stuff probably gives you thrills (omg sleeper cells! blacks are the new al qaeda!) but I my humble opinion is that it will not matter much, in the end. The public has made a decision that Obama’s crazy pastor is mildly alarming, but ultimately, not that important. Unless someone digs up a picture of Obama doing something like this http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=6681&rendTypeId=4, no one is going to get on the bus with this one. McCain has even opted out of the Race Train.

    Obama will probably lose the general election because he will sound like a dolt on national security next to McCain. And we may or may not go into a period of elevated terror threat (if Osama’s latest barrage of vids are any hint) which will make people think twice about having some guy up there who wants to chit chat amiably with Iran or Syria.

    We will see, won’t we. Now take five deep breaths before you respond. Think about a peaceful lake….

  107. I just thought Carin had a good point is all. But I think your argument is a bit too linear, really. Wright is about instilling a bit of doubt among the True Believers at this point. Not doubt in his unquestionable holiness, just doubt in his inevitability.

  108. Lisa – There was no overreaction. You dropped by, dropped a huge steaming turd in the middle of the living room, and then walked out. Don’t go getting the vapors because people had the audacity to hope that you might actually know what in the hell you were talking about. Baracky is a Baptist !!!!!!!!!eleventy111!!

    If/when Obama loses, his complete and utter lack of experience, judgment, and his aggressively socialist views will be the likely culprits.

  109. Yeah, but they’ll listen to me McGehee! ;)

    Maybe I should have said it in the form of an original neologism, melding a multisyllabic word for dishonest with an intimate hygiene product.

    People seem to notice that kind of thing.

  110. Lisa, no worries. i was just running near a peaceful lake, so I have the picture. Youre hardly a troll, just a person who doesnt see things a certain way.

    I think youre wrong on His Changeyness.

    His church is full of moonbats. That will hurt him, big time. He knows it–this story isnt going away and he knows that too. He ditches the church and he loses street cred. He doesnt lose the nutjobs and he loses votes.

    That, and his 1972 political record, should make things a lot more different for his life than it has been.

    thanks for playing, and thanks for the cool lake imagery. If there is anything better than a nice run by a lake, well, it escapes me.

    This, and some orthodox

  111. Baracky is a Baptist

    Remember, either Lisa herself or Lisa’s cousin Melvin goes to the church and Lisa told us all about it.

  112. sorry about the tag at the end of the last comment. a bad cut/paste job.

  113. Ugghhh…I find myself agreeing with nishi in regards to the Iranian thing. I don’t think we should act pre-emptively with Iran for the exact reasons she mentions. I am in the Michael Ledeen camp on this one.

    Funny thing, kate, er I mean nishi, though. You invoked your grandpa in saying that he wouldn’t recognize the republican party anymore and I could agree with that. However, your infatuation with Obama kind of gives you away. He’s a socialist wannabe. I don’t think Gramps would be an Obama fan, either. So put away the bullshit about McCain being not being conservative and/or republican enough. As far as your faddish dalience into sufism, i.e. fake Islam, have fun. I realize the Catholic church is too hard for some people, so you ran. They expect you to work, but you’re defiant. In your own mind, edgy. One would almost say obstreperous and the Church couldn’t hold you down. I can respect that. I was raised a Catholic but just can’t get in line with the whole infallibity of the Pope stuff. Too many errors in moral judgement from pontiffs in the past to believe the whole vicar of Christ stuff. Also, for my tastes, too regimented. Though, I still do like the mass. I find it a lovely service.

  114. You are likely correct JD. And I walked out because I had to catch the commuter train (Yes, I have a light carbon footprint). And then I come back to discover that I have been getting e-bitchslapped like I am married to Ike Turner. Damn.

    By the way, I don’t have too many major objections to McCain. I have been thinking it over the past few weeks and I realized that his ideals are much closer to mine than his party’s base. He has a long record of doing things that please me. His campaign finance attempts: Messy and ineffective, but it is good to know he gives a shit. Maybe as president he will have a better bully pulpit on the matter. Immigration: He has stood his ground, under the most vicious assaults from his own base. Good on him. On torture: He has been tortured, and he said the shit didn’t work. He is the very antithesis of the couch commando chickenhawk. And I believe him.

    There is alot I DONT like about McCain (that he is saddled with the GOP is quite unfortunate). But he is the most pleasing Republican possibly since Abe Lincoln (but with shorter arms).

    No matter who wins, I win. And really isn’t that all that matters?

  115. What sounds good is Jack in the Box tacos, but I kind of ate a lot at Easter

    OOoooo. Did you have those green beans made with, I think, cream of mushroom soup and the cripy fried onions on top? They are just typical white to die for.

  116. Maybee: It is the cousin. I am an unbeliever.

  117. And Mabyee: I made the wrong assumption that since all of of my dad’s side of the family is baptist, that that was the denomination of my cousin’s church. But I believe you when you say it is non-denominational. I do know my cousins though. They do are not hateful. They are quite nice.

  118. McGehee – now you cookin’ with gas!

  119. Ugghhh…I find myself agreeing with nishi in regards to the Iranian thing. I don’t think we should act pre-emptively with Iran for the exact reasons she mentions. I am in the Michael Ledeen camp on this one.

    Do you agree with her that anyone advocating a pre-emptive strike is trying to bring on armageddon?

  120. Now take five deep breaths before you respond. Think about a peaceful lake….

    Go jump in it twice, but only come up once.

  121. B Moe…of course not. That’s just, well, goofy. But that’s our kate.

  122. I’m so looking forward to the upcoming general election between Barack Obama and John McCain. Nothing makes a true-blue American horndog prouder than proudly proclaiming they’d bone either wife of either candidate. Win or lose, either one, it’s all tight.

    Oh hell yes I would.

  123. GuinsPen, not nice. Not funny either. Thanks for playing though! ;-)

  124. LMAO, I love you thor.

    Though I think Mrs. McCain was much cuter with shorter hair. Very Princess Diana.

  125. Hey Lisa,

    Shorter version: You don’t matter.

  126. I do know my cousins though. They do are not hateful. They are quite nice.

    Maybe to you. You just don’t understand the white experience!

  127. GuinsPen, not nice.

    Zono does this, too.

    Typical girls.

  128. And then I come back to discover that I have been getting e-bitchslapped like I am married to Ike Turner. Damn.

    Well played.

    Lisa – What you said about McCain is why he is so disliked on this side of the aisle. Unfortunately for you, on a couple of key issues, he is on the Right side.

  129. That should read, “Typical grrrrrrrrrrlz.”

    I apologise to girls, worldwide.

  130. Comment by Lisa on 3/24 @ 7:00 pm #

    LMAO, I love you thor.

    Though I think Mrs. McCain was much cuter with shorter hair. Very Princess Diana.

    Though neither is as chesty as Laura Bush, both Cindy and Michelle have slender, firm legs. Both women are mature yet have feminine facial structures, and needless to say both share a healthy respect for the stairmaster. Michelle offers a nice shapely rear view and Cindy a platinum princess Seka profile.

  131. Is it alright to note that McCain’s daughter is incredibly hot, and seems to be pretty cool too ?

  132. No Vacancies

  133. Phone home, Ace.

  134. I don’t think I bitchslapped. I thought it was a valid point. What Republicans think about Democrats should be important, because unless they cam (logically) respond to our “concerns” about their candidate, then perhaps they’ve picked a turd. The same is true the other way around.

    Unless, of course, it’s not. And then, Republicans should care not a wit about what African Americans think, since they constitute about 1% of their voting base.

    Which is it?

  135. Can. I’m on my second glass of Cabernet … I claim immunity- for the evening -regarding typos.

  136. Yes thor, we get it.

    If it’s got a vagina, that’s what you’re focused on.

    JD, IMO it’s cool. But do me a favor, repress any urges you may have to tell about how you only look at her to imagine your dick stuck in her face, if you experience any urges like that I mean.

    That would just be tacky.

  137. JD she does seem very cool. She likes good music. Anyone who appreciates the goodness that is Sleater-Kinney is alright by me.

  138. lee – I will leave those musings for thor.

  139. Oh, and another thing JD, When extolling beauty of the fairer sex, it’s customary to provide a link.

    Damn, I HATE being so preachy!

  140. I don’t care about the First Lady’s virginia so much really, as long as it’s not all marxist.

  141. One must attend to one’s grooming I think is all.

  142. Yikes!

    From McCainBloggette (linked above):

    Dad told some new stories, including one about my brother in Iraq

    Am I the only dumbshit that didn’t know McCain had a son in Iraq?

    Prince Harry ain’t shit…he left.

  143. lee – The last time I tried that linkie stuff, I screwed up the formatting on these pages for 2 days, and quickly retired. I denounce myself, in advance, for any future futile attempts.

  144. Am I the only dumbshit that didn’t know McCain had a son in Iraq?

    yah.
    drudge outed Harry as high-value target.
    kinda like u an megan just did for her bro.

  145. I think he’s in the Navy prolly, no?

  146. havent seen Syriana have u feets?

  147. No. It’s a click away but, no. It doesn’t look like a fun movie really.

  148. JD, I’m a computer idiot, and actually emailed Jeff how to do it. This was his answer:

    http://www.urlhere.com“>text you wish to link to

    The bolded part is where you paste your link.

    Good luck!

  149. Oh, I screwed that up completely.

    Try this: text you wish to link to.

  150. feets, inlight of ur navy comment, u might be interested in the ending.

  151. lee – Your linkied skills are not quite as bad as mine.

  152. Sorry, told you I’m a computer idiot…

  153. Oh. Mostly it was cause earlier I was looking at the AP’s Fun Death Facts About The War – Amaze Your Friends they did at the 4000 mark. They said the percentage of casualties from the Navy was like 2% or something.

  154. okay, I’m just going with the theory that all Lisa’s are stupid if they can’t think of something clever to differentiate themselves from each other. I’m starting a list:

    1. dave/david
    2. Lisa
    3. (possibly….) Sean

    ;D

  155. Oh, yeah. I are not Sean for real. I made that up kinda. I’m all double super secret like that.

  156. Someday I will tell the Sean story. He was one of the first real liberal people I ever knew. At least his family was. It haunts me still a little.

  157. LOL, I’d wondered about that. nuts.

  158. I got an email from a Sean once. He seemed like a good guy.

  159. Maggie – Kaitlin and Better Half think you are waaaaaaaaay cool now. Happyfeet levels of cool.

  160. I have no idea where he is now, and I doubt anyone else does either. He went into the military right out of highschool. Cause he wanted to go to college and liberal mommy and daddy weren’t helpful like that. There’s also a Sean of that same name writing for the AP.

  161. Maggie, my real name is david. I have seen too many people with the same name around here ruin it for me.

  162. ya, that’s why it’s on the list cranky-d.

  163. The story was that he was dating a very close friend of mine. Kind of in a liberal sort of way right off since her fiance was in the military already and he was sorta just the senior year guy, and everyone was ok with that. So anyway. We graduate, and we all go off to spend the summer in Austin before college. Just as a place, not like we were all going to UT, except her, and her mom and dad had already gotten a condo for that and it was free for the summer.

    Sean’s parents drop him off, really sorta hippy people, but not stoner hippy people, more like academic or artisany hippy people. What I sort of learned that morning was that as soon as Sean graduated, they were going to divorce and all three were going their separate ways. It had been decided for some time, and this was the day.

    What I remember most was when dad says…”Ok. This is it. Group hug.” And then they have a goddamn group hug. Like a perfect little tripod of goodbyeness. So perfect really it was like a symbol of this sort of consensus that they just flat out weren’t gonna be a family anymore. That’s why they were ok with the military, really, cause they were pretty much done with each other and it was his call if he wanted to do that. I remember asking Sean when he would see them again and he said he had no idea.

    I was jealous kinda cause it seemed very cool to be just done like that and on your way. But I’m still not sure what it was I was looking at really.

  164. That’s trippy Happy.

  165. That’s really strange Happy. My aunt and uncle (Liberal as well) decided to wait until my cousin graduated from high school to divorce. But, he got anxious and got a girlfriend before the time was up, and my aunt found out. She ran over all of his daylillies with the lawn mower. My cousin’s perfect world was rocked and she ended up taking a girlfriend for a few years too. I think it was an anger at daddy/men thing. Anyway, the lesbianism wore off right after she graduated from college.

  166. okay, I’m just going with the theory that all Lisa’s are stupid if they can’t think of something clever to differentiate themselves from each other. I’m starting a list:

    1. dave/david
    2. Lisa
    3. (possibly….) Sean

    ;D

  167. I thought lesbianism was genetic, Carin. I blame Kwame.

    Lisa – “…” is an absolutely devastating response.

  168. That was supposed to convey “silent, with eyebrow raised”. I am not sure what response you would consider appropriate to someone who just randomly calls you stupid out of the blue.

    I guess “thanks, that was classy” is a good response.

    See ya.

  169. There are a couple of Kevins who kind of ruin the brand for me, but most of my fellow Kevins are okay.

    The reason I post by last-name only is to keep from ruining the brand for them.

  170. Nobody else would dream of posting under the moniker of JD. Why in the world would you want to associate yourself with the branding of a racist, sexist, homophobic asshole?

  171. That was supposed to convey “silent, with eyebrow raised”.

    One downside to Jeff’s ditching ExpressionEngine for WordPress is that EE has a smiley for just that purpose.

    First I’ll see if I can actually show it here: — and if that doesn’t work, here’s the URL.

  172. Nobody else would dream of posting under the moniker of JD. Why in the world would you want to associate yourself with the branding of a racist, sexist, homophobic asshole?

    I don’t think you are racist, sexist, or homophobic.

  173. I like it a lot, McGee. Thanks!

  174. I forgot to put a ;-) with #172.

    See ya.

  175. bye bye! and maybe next time you can come up with something that will make us not confuse you with some other Lisa that showed up around the same time. like a last initial or something. but see, “lisa” was number two on that list…. you don’t like Daves/davids either I take it? you don’t see many Jennifers. cause we know better. ;P

  176. oh, number 3 should be steve. now that I think about it.

  177. OK, I officially refuse to comment on or read any thread in which nishi invests itself.

    I’m with you Lee. Anytime I see the TTP I’m outta there. If we can get another more, we’ll have a movement!

  178. Pingback: Dems 2008: Why did Obama join the Wright church, revisited [Karl]

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