“…to home school their children” so writes Justice H. Walter Croskey in a court ruling coming from California’s 2nd District Court of Appeals.
Parents? Are you state-credentialed as a teacher? No? Put down that algebra book or go to jail!
“Parents who fail to [comply with school enrollment laws] may be subject to a criminal complaint against them, found guilty of an infraction, and subject to imposition of fines or an order to complete a parent education and counseling program.”
Of course, the state’s teacher’s union is all grins and rubbing hands
A.J. Duffy, president of United Teachers Los Angeles, said he agrees with the ruling.
“What’s best for a child is to be taught by a credentialed teacher,” he said.
Because we all know just how that credential-thingy always works out for teh children, eh?
Only a little over two years ago, the US 9th Circuit tossed out parental rights to have any say over school curriculum
Parents’ rights were not violated when a Southern California elementary school conducted a psychological survey of their children and asked them about sexual feelings and masturbation, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday. …”
Parents have a right to inform their children when and as they wish on the subject of sex,” said Judge Stephen Reinhardt in the 3-0 ruling. “They have no constitutional right, however, to prevent a public school from providing its students with whatever information it wishes to provide, sexual or otherwise.”
That particular ruling (Fields v Palmdale) pushed the balancing of rights of parents and obligations of public schools clearly into the schools’ interest, as examined here by Elliott Davis in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy
The right of a parent to control his child’s upbringing is one of the few fundamental rights recognized by courts as protected under the doctrine of substantive due process. [...]
[M]any courts have envisioned the Meyer-Pierce right as a balance between the competing interests of the parents and the schools. Yet not until Fields v. Pahndnle (sic) School District did a federal appellate court establish a bright-line rule for parental rights claims relating to a public school’s actions.
In Fields, Judge Reinhardt of the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit held-rousing much controversy-that “the Meyer-Pierce right does not extend beyond the threshold of the school door.” Though described by some as a restrained opinion,” Fields construes precedent broadly, ignores parental interests, and emasculates the Meyer-Pierce right in the public school setting.
It is estimated that upwards of 166,000 California children are not in traditional public or private school. And don’t believe that homeschooling = Xtian oppression. There are secular as well as religious homeschools and they all out perform their public school educated peers.
Brad Dacus, president of the Sacramento-based Pacific Justice Institute, calls the scope of the decision “breathtaking.”
“It not only attacks traditional home schooling, but also calls into question home schooling through charter schools and teaching children at home via independent study through public and private schools,” he explains.
First parents are told they have no rights beyond the public school threshold, now they are told they have no right to opt out of government schooling.
I will admit that part of the problem in California is that the educational code has been very vague in respect to homeschooling. There is a grey area where parents are (were) allowed to homeschool as long as paperwork was prepared and filed that, in essence, established the parents as a private school. However, as in the Fields v Palmdale case, the justices seem to have gone beyond the case at hand and taken the opportunity to issue a general and harsh ruling that strips parents of any rights where it concerns the education of their children.
***UPDATE***
California isn’t the only state to view parents as criminally incompetent when it comes to educating their own children. Wisconsin has faced an even clearer indication that opposition to homeschooling isn’t a matter of children being deprived of a quality education, but hostility to parents in toto. The public school district operated a “virtual academy”, an online school using credentialed, union dues paying teachers, and yet the union (WEAC) itself has sought for several years to shut it down. WEAC at first sued the Department of Public Instruction, but DPI changed sides and last December, succeeded in having the virtual academy banned, leaving thousands of parents to scramble for a legislative fix. During arguments before the appeals court that ruled the virtual academy illegal,
“They meet the state standard,” conceded the state’s lawyer  92% of the students score advanced or proficient in reading. That’s beside the point, he told the court. Because parents help when children are stuck or act as an on-hand coach, they’re the teachers. Such parents are “unlicensed, untrained, unqualified and, um, adults who are not required to prove competence,”
Or this “teachable moment” during hearings at the state capital
Perhaps most interesting was a Fraudian slip by the DPI lawyer when she said, referring to all students .. “they aren’t your children they are the state’s childrenâ€Â.Then she quickly backed up, said she made a mistake and that wasn’t what she really meant to say.
Yeah, sure, just a mere slip of the tongue. Could happen to anyone. That’s the ticket.
***UPDATE 2***
Thuggery by United Teachers Los Angeles
Wait for the “vampire” lines.
(h/t PierreLagrand)
Comment by mojo on 3/6 @ 12:09 pm #
AL YOR BRAINZ IS BELONG TO US!
Comment by Dan Collins on 3/6 @ 12:12 pm #
Don’t worry, Darleen. Janet Reno will smoke them out.
Comment by scooter (not libby) on 3/6 @ 12:13 pm #
And yet, “Liberal Fascism” is an “oxymoron.”
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/6 @ 12:14 pm #
sry, but i think socialization is a huge part of education.
after all this xian guy was homeschooled.
Comment by Jeff G. on 3/6 @ 12:14 pm #
Time for some civil disobedience, I think.
Or maybe we should retroactively strip homeschooled Presidents of their titles.
Comment by Jeff G. on 3/6 @ 12:15 pm #
Nish –
Do NOT hijack this thread with more Christian bashing.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 12:17 pm #
nishi
and Hitler was a vegetarian.
Don’t you have a kitten to torture or something?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/6 @ 12:17 pm #
pardon, but im evolutionary theory of culture bashing.
bann me.
Comment by Education Guy on 3/6 @ 12:20 pm #
What does it take to get state-credentialed as a teacher in California?
Comment by jdm on 3/6 @ 12:21 pm #
pardon, but im evolutionary theory of culture bashing.
No, you’re annoying. Verging on being an asshole. And I say that as an agnostic.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 12:23 pm #
nishi
maybe YOU can be educated … You’re certainly lacking in some basic curiousity about anything you have tossed in your Poopy-headed Xtian box.
LEARN about homeschoolers and you will be surprised at how much a canard is the “but what about the socialization!” claim.
Comment by sashal on 3/6 @ 12:24 pm #
wow, I am speechless.
What a dumb socialistically insane decision.
“The ghost of communism roams in Europe” and USA…
Comment by Jeff G. on 3/6 @ 12:24 pm #
This thread is not about Christians. Not everybody who homeschools is Christian. And of course, pointing out a Christian who’s been homeschooled and then goes on a shooting spree to suggest the he is representative of anything is, well, mind-bogglingly stupid.
You went all provocateur on the Reynolds thread, nishi. This one is too important. I don’t want it being derailed.
Comment by Education Guy on 3/6 @ 12:26 pm #
Nevermind, I found out myself. Link is to a word document.
Comment by Lost My Cookies on 3/6 @ 12:26 pm #
Here’s a list of credentialed teachers if you need one.
Comment by Jeff G. on 3/6 @ 12:28 pm #
Pretty soon you’ll need to be credentialed to be a reporter. Or a pundit.
And the First Amendment will sit back and take it. Like a Viking!
Comment by jdm on 3/6 @ 12:30 pm #
Outside of moving out of CA, it will be interesting to see the counter-reactions - the ever resultant unintended consequences. I am guessing there are not so few home-schooling families in CA.
Comment by Karl on 3/6 @ 12:31 pm #
I know several home-schoolers. All of them are liberal. Not the classical kind, either.
Comment by Squid on 3/6 @ 12:39 pm #
So, the State can force you to send your children to their indoctrination camps, and can force them to have their shots before they enter the camps. Soon, they’ll force parents to limit their children’s sugar and television consumption to levels approved by the all-knowing, all-caring bureaucrats. The only question that remains is whether childhood obesity will be a recognized medical disorder worthy of State-funded treatment, or whether it will be grounds for imprisonment of the irresponsible parents.
I say both.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 3/6 @ 12:39 pm #
The interesting thing will be the legislature’s reaction. Will they kowtow to their teacher’s union masters, or will they do the right thing?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/6 @ 12:42 pm #
well…u have to have a license to own a cat or a dog or drive…..why not to be a parent?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/6 @ 12:44 pm #
or a teacher?
Comment by scooter (not libby) on 3/6 @ 12:45 pm #
Sorry, but I think kids have plenty of other socialism opportunities outside of public school.
Like Boy scouts, Sports teams, or church.
Oh shit, I went and veered all “Xian”.
Comment by Spiny Norman on 3/6 @ 12:45 pm #
nishi,
That’s not a cat license, it’s dog license with the word “dog” crossed out and “cat” written on it in crayon.
Comment by scooter (not libby) on 3/6 @ 12:46 pm #
Currently, public school teachers are licensed. And public schools, with few exceptions, suck. That tells me something obvious.
Comment by scooter (not libby) on 3/6 @ 12:48 pm #
Anyone feel like digging up a news story about a kid in public school who was socialized into a murderous rampage? I’m sure there has to be at least 1 example.
Comment by Spiny Norman on 3/6 @ 12:49 pm #
#20 Robert Crawford
That was a rhetorical question, wasn’t it?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t private schools, particularly church-based ones, have different credentialing procedures than the state-run schools? Will the teachers’ union and the Court be going after them next?
Comment by sashal on 3/6 @ 12:49 pm #
# 18.
I wonder , Karl, what do they teach their kids at home?
How to “snatch post office and train station from the government”? how to make a revolution?
If of course you were using the American parlance for liberal- meaning lefty/socialist
Comment by Spiny Norman on 3/6 @ 12:51 pm #
*Rob* Crawford
I mistook you for a commenter at another blog. Sorry.
Comment by Great Banana on 3/6 @ 12:51 pm #
well…u have to have a license to own a cat or a dog or drive…..why not to be a parent?
#
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/6 @ 12:44 pm #
or a teacher?
And they argue that liberals really aren’t fascist. The City where I live has a lower than 50% graduation rate from the public school district. And, I have interacted with the “graduates” who are not so well educated either.
Why anyone would believe that the state knows how to raise and educate children better than parents is beyond me.
Or, the belief that the state has a “right” or even a “responsiblity” toward children greater than, or even equal to, parents, is beyond me. How anyone does not see the totalitarian thrust of this is chilling.
I can’t decide if Nishi is truly the insane believer in state above all that he pretends to be, or if he is merely parodying a leftist. He almost seems to absurd to be true, but one can never tell for sure.
Comment by John on 3/6 @ 12:53 pm #
Who cares if they’re homeschooled as long as they’re doing well on the SATs? I’m at Georgia State University right now and it seems most of theses doofs are struggling through US History and Govt like they’ve never took it anyways.
Comment by Cave Bear on 3/6 @ 12:55 pm #
“Anyone feel like digging up a news story about a kid in public school who was socialized into a murderous rampage? I’m sure there has to be at least 1 example.”
Columbine comes to mind as an example.
Comment by Jeff G. on 3/6 @ 12:56 pm #
I’m with nishi. I think a woman should have to obtain a license before getting pregnant. And then another to have the child. Then a third upon completion of a breast feeding course. Then one for each stage of the child’s development she hopes to oversee.
And if she has twins or triplets, etc., she needs to apply for licenses for each child. I mean, maybe the government will say she can handle two at a time. But three?
Please. The state simply must step in in such an instance. FOR THE COMMON GOOD!
Comment by mojo on 3/6 @ 12:57 pm #
Ah, but you miss the point. The State is interested in process, not outcome.
Oh, and in pulling in big buks from the Teacher’s unions.
Comment by Spiny Norman on 3/6 @ 12:58 pm #
It seems the 2nd District Court of Appeals has ruled that, yes, it DOES “take a village”…
Comment by MayBee on 3/6 @ 12:59 pm #
u have to have a license to own a cat or a dog
Not to nitpick, but no, you don’t.
Comment by scooter (not libby) on 3/6 @ 1:00 pm #
Thanks, Cave Bear. I knew that, no matter how obscure, there would be at least 1.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 1:00 pm #
#20 Rob
I’ve written, and have calls, into my state senator and state assemblycritter. Let’s see what I can scare up.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 1:02 pm #
Oh…and let’s all remember that Hillary! wants “universal” pre-school.
All your 4 year olds belong us!
Comment by jon on 3/6 @ 1:12 pm #
This is a ruling that really looks stupid, but the court looked in the California Constitution for something and it couldn’t find it. Saying that there isn’t a right to something from the ruling document isn’t the same as saying that there is no right (see U.S. Constitution, Amendment IX.) But now it’s up to the State Supremes to sort this out. And I’ll be amazed if this case doesn’t get Federalized.
But in the end, it was California judges deciding upon California laws and the California Constitution. This will get tied up in courts for a long time, the legislature will decide something, and the complete legislative vacuum on the issue will get filled with some sane amount of oversight and a sane amount of leaving people alone. Sanity itself will not reign, but it will have a calming effect after two or three years.
I’ve known many homeschoolers. Some were Christian, some were military families who just wanted some stability (moving a lot can lead to problems,) but most were neo-hippies and free spirits who just don’t like the hours of wasted time that go into each and every school day. Socialization is a bullshit argument: I hated most of my peers then and still do. It’s still possible to be a productive and good citizen without having gone to a prom, played on a sports team, been a Scout, or even becoming a member of a church or civic group. Social skills are pretty basic things, and schools are no better or worse at teaching them than are families.
Comment by Lost My Cookies on 3/6 @ 1:12 pm #
I am extremely happy with our local Public School, my kids are getting a great education. That said, if I wanted to take my kids out and teach them in my barn, I should be allowed.
So let’s see how long it takes before somewhere in California there’s a Waco, only with homeschoolers.
Comment by dicentra on 3/6 @ 1:16 pm #
Nishi, hon, I gots me 2 kittehs but no lisens. Dont gotta git 1 ether.
In ur homskul, brenwashin ur kidz.
See, the fascists (progressives) believed that FOR THE COMMON GOOD, the state should raise children, because parents can’t be trusted to properly
brainwasheducate their children to the GodState’s taste. Because parents pass on horrible ideas about good and evil and capitalism and religion and all those horrible things. And the GodState will brook no rivals.Sometimes I think these people read Liberal Fascism to get ideas from the original sources, the way anorexics read cautionary tales about anorexia to find better ways to starve themselves. Thanks a bunch, Jonah.
Comment by cranky-d on 3/6 @ 1:17 pm #
California’s where I grew up. I visting on an extended stay right now; like it here. But the state government and judiciary continues to overstep their bounds. I doubt I will ever live here again.
Comment by cranky-d on 3/6 @ 1:18 pm #
Wow. I’m also, apparently, illiterate. I blame California public schools. And George Bush.
Comment by jdm on 3/6 @ 1:19 pm #
Please. The state simply must step in in such an instance. FOR THE COMMON GOOD!
Oh, even more so. All these licenses will mean that only well-off (aka successful) people will be able to afford to have kids. Now add in the tests and criteria for actually acquiring a license and any particular stage, and I’m thinking we could have exactly the society we (ahem) deserve in only a generation.
I’ll bet we breed out all those people who refuse to spell correctly or write (nearly) grammatically correct sentences.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 1:19 pm #
jon
I’ve linked the ruling above (pdf file). The justices did not rely specifically on the CA constitution. There is a lot of reference to Pierce and much discussion of the right of the government to instill “good citizenship” in its children. They go from there to CA education code (as I explained above, really doesn’t address homeschooling directly) and find whatever rights parents claim to have, those rights only exist if the education code specifically allows it.
Comment by scooter (not libby) on 3/6 @ 1:23 pm #
Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 3/6 @ 1:26 pm #
“And the First Amendment will sit back and take it. Like a Viking!”
When the 1st Amendment is denied by the government, use the 2nd one.
Comment by BJTexs on 3/6 @ 1:28 pm #
Yeesh, scooter, you beat me to it. So basic parental rights regarding the education of their kids don’t exist unless the education code, written for the purpose of public education, specifically conveys the right?
Holy Mary’s donkey, this is as damaging to the concept of personal liberty as Kelo.
Comment by Stacy in NJ on 3/6 @ 1:29 pm #
I just want to thank Darleen for posting about this at PW. I’m a frequent lurker myself, but rarely post. We home school our two sons, ages 10 and 8. We live in the home school friendly state of NJ, so CA’s crap doesn’t necessarily effect us. The sterotype of the fundie Christian home schooler is really a strawman for those who want to limit rights.
Jeff, Darlene, Dan add all, Keep fighting the good (or sometimes not all that terrific) fight for individual rights and responsibilites. Jeff, I know you secretly want to home school your precious little guy. Just do it.
Comment by A Frog on 3/6 @ 1:29 pm #
Is it just me, or is this pan of water getting a bit warmer?
Comment by MC on 3/6 @ 1:34 pm #
I hope we can chalk this up to activist jurist malingering. Like Rob suggests, if there are no explicit CA provisions for home schooling, perhaps Croskey’s hand toss will get on the table soon enough and legislation can enable a better frame of reference for educational choices.
Is that being too hopey?
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 1:34 pm #
scooter (not libby), from the actual court ruling:
Also, several times in the ruling, the argument that the homeschooled child is receiving a superior education is no defense.
Comment by MayBee on 3/6 @ 1:43 pm #
It’s interesting too because California is in the middle of a huge budget crisis and can barely afford to educate the students currently enrolled.
Comment by Education Guy on 3/6 @ 1:47 pm #
The whole idea is just so horribly backwards isn’t it? The state is not supposed to have this much power over our individual lives, at least without a clear and compelling interest. To my mind, that interest only comes into play if the state can prove that the child is not getting educated. Which is not the way it is in this case.
California frequently acts as the trend setter on issues, so let us hope that saner minds prevail on this issue.
Comment by scooter (not libby) on 3/6 @ 1:47 pm #
I can understand where there might be some gray area since there are truancy laws pretty much everywhere in the U.S. I also thought, perhaps incorrectly, that the homeschool movement has taken this into account and settled the legality surrounding keeping kids out of school so long as they were being educated.
But here again, “the educational program of the State of California was designed to
promote the general welfare of all the people and was not designed to accommodate the
personal ideas of any individual in the field of education.” So who gets to define what’s in the best interest of the “general welfare of all the people”? Certainly not the people themselves.
And as to your last point, mojo nailed it. They’re not interested in outcomes - at least, not purely educational ones. Indoctrination, on the other hand…
Comment by jdm on 3/6 @ 1:49 pm #
can barely afford to educate the students currently enrolled.
First rule of bureaucracies is to assert power over the “customers” before actually figuring out how to service their needs.
If ever.
Comment by MC on 3/6 @ 1:51 pm #
Darleen@53 - Gack! I do so very hate it when the state assumes it must grant permission for my liberty.
Doesn’t sound like malingering then - we’ve got an acivist judiciary once again legislating from the bench. Did he specify the new initials that are to be sewn on the new state of CA uniforms?
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 2:00 pm #
Maybee
We have plenty of money for education. It usually runs 40-45% of the budget due to Prop 98.
But the CA education establishment wastes money by the oil tanker full. Los Angeles USD is an infamous blackhole that no independent firm as been able to successfully audit. Getting the tens of thousands of homeschoolers forced into the government system means more money to the education establishment (based on enrollment).
Comment by Carin on 3/6 @ 2:00 pm #
I lived in Detroit with a 33% graduation rate up until a few months ago (actually, we still own the house - but I was forced to move to take care of an elderly parent.) I don’t see how a non-credentialed person could do any worse. ANYWAY -I’ve always homeschooled my 5 children (13, 12, 10, 8, and 6), and at one point belong to a non-religious homeschool group. I eventually dropped out because I kinda stuck out (being both Catholic and conservative.) If anyone thinks that home schooling is owned by the conservative religious right they should look into the “unschooling” movement, which is mostly the darling of pretty liberal people.
Michigan is one of the easiest states to home school in. I don’t have to do anything in so much as reporting to any higher power. I feel for Californians … but, you know, you take the good with the bad. I get Michigan winters, they get loony socialist policies.
And, FTR, I went to Grad school to get an education degree … and needed to take a few ED courses (I wanted to be a teacher when I grew up), and Graduate Level ed courses were a ton easier than my four years of undergrad. Some, insultingly so.
Comment by Sara on 3/6 @ 2:03 pm #
“What does it take to get state-credentialed as a teacher in California?”
Apparently not too much, I have a cousin who is dumber than a doornail and she teaches K thru 4 in Danville, CA. Knowing her as I do, I feel very sorry for those kids.
But my question is, where in the Constitution does it give the state these rights regarding schooling? They say parents have no rights, well where is the State finding this Constitutional right?
I put two kids thru the Calif. school system and it was a nightmare. My son suffered most since I was too young and dumb to realize he wasn’t getting as good or better education than I got in Pennsylvania 20+ years earlier. My daughter, 4 years younger, fared slightly better since by then I was more aware of the terrible shortcomings. Thankfully, I woke up in time to realize that going into 4th grade, she could barely read and a summer of intense work with her at home, brought her up to her grade level for the Fall. When I confronted her teacher and asked why she would have been passed when she could barely read, the teacher said, “I didn’t know.” Really, her answer said, “I didn’t care.”
My Granddaughter in Florida attends virtual high school. Credentialed teachers do their classes all over the Internet. My daughter gets weekly reports from each of her teachers and as far as socialization, they schedule all kinds of field trips and events where the kids can participate. I was very skeptical at first and discouraged her from doing this, but after a full year and test scores way above the State average, I’ve changed my tune.
Comment by Carin on 3/6 @ 2:04 pm #
And,I don’t even want to go into that socialization thing. Again. It’s a very boring debate.
Comment by Old Dad on 3/6 @ 2:07 pm #
This parent would gladly tell the State of California to go eff itself. Jeff is right. Civil disobedience might make sense.
Phone rings: Hello, this is PS 22 calling. Johnny didn’t show today.
Me: Johnny is dead. Go eff yourself.
Rinse, repeat for 100,000 kids.
Comment by jon on 3/6 @ 2:07 pm #
Darleen,
I skimmed the ruling, and indeed saw some Federal citations, but the judges were ruling on California law. And to say that they saw no constitutional right to home school isn’t outrageous, since I bet there isn’t one in there. (I’ve never read the California Constitution.) Is there a right outside the California Constitution? Maybe. Is there one outside the US Constitution? I’d argue that the Ninth Amendment covers that, though others aren’t in agreement.
In the end, I say this is a case where the judges made an overbroad decision. But I also say the legislature and governor should have seen this one coming. 166,000 students getting homeschooled and the legislature is silent on the basic underlying legality of that? That’s just stupid and negligent on the part of homeschoolers, the legislature, and the school districts. And if the school districts win, they will probably be sued for all the years they let this happen illegally.
It’s rare to feel really great about living in Arizona, but every time I look to the West I see insanity. Not that things are so great here, since we’re $1.2B in the red and we’re focused on guns in colleges rather than something trivial like, for instance, revenues or spending. But at least we have our homeschooling rules. California gets theirs written by a judge because the legislature was too lazy or stupid. Or they had more important things to do.
Comment by in_awe on 3/6 @ 2:14 pm #
In the vein of statism, I live in Irvine, CA in conservative OC. Our City Council has decided that the city must ensure healthcare coverage to all children under 19 in the city AND to actively participate in their healthcare activity. The city is hiring 3 “case managers” to make sure all the kids are being taken to their doctor and dentist appointments. The case managers will stay in contact with the parents to make sure the kids are getting comprehensive and >>culturally sensitive
Comment by in_awe on 3/6 @ 2:15 pm #
In the vein of statism, I live in Irvine, CA in conservative OC. Our City Council has decided that the city must ensure healthcare coverage to all children under 19 in the city AND to actively participate in their healthcare activity. The city is hiring 3 “case managers†to make sure all the kids are being taken to their doctor and dentist appointments. The case managers will stay in contact with the parents to make sure the kids are getting comprehensive and **culturally sensitive** medical care.
Comment by Spiny Norman on 3/6 @ 2:18 pm #
So this Appeals Court judge has, effectively, ruled that the citizen has no rights, except those spelled out in the Constitution. Doesn’t he have that exactly backwards? Isn’t it that the State has no authority over the citizen, except that authority spelled out by law?
Comment by BJTexs on 3/6 @ 2:21 pm #
jon: The case was brought by an appointed lawyer for two of the children in a home schooled family. There were accusations of abuse that never seemed to be proven and the case was brought because, even though the parents were affiliated with a Christian home schooling organization, the state wanted the 2 kids in public school where they could be “monitored.”
That makes this decision even more troubling. Unable to prove abuse to the point where they could yank the kids out of the home, they decide to end run by claiming that the kids need to have “supervision” in a more public school setting. Now the 9th, looking at California’s overly vague statutes regarding home schooling, has decided to give the golden calf to public education by disavowing any right, implicit or implied, to parents who want to home school their kids. A narrower finding concerning the actual kids and the family wasn’t enough for this judge, he had to make a statement!
My wife works for Williams Sonoma and I’m terrified that she’ll get a corporate job in San Francisco.
Comment by Great Banana on 3/6 @ 2:21 pm #
But at least we have our homeschooling rules. California gets theirs written by a judge because the legislature was too lazy or stupid. Or they had more important things to do.
Or because the most politically powerful faction in the state is the teachers’ unions and the legislature will not pass any law allowing homeschooling b/c that would anger them. Of course, they also won’t pass a law outlawing homeschooling either, b/c that would anger other people. So, the easiest thing for said politician to do is nothing.
And then a judge finds that there is no “right” to educate your own children.
I thought it was the left that believed there were all kinds of rights in constitutions that are not explicitly written? Of course, those are rights to things like abortion and sodomy, not the freedom to educate your own child as you see fit.
Comment by Spiny Norman on 3/6 @ 2:22 pm #
#66 in_awe
I think the old mantra of OC being a “conservative bastion” is in danger of becoming obsolete, if it hasn’t already…
Comment by Spiny Norman on 3/6 @ 2:24 pm #
#69 Great Banana
Or because the most politically powerful faction in the state is the teachers’ unions and the legislature will not pass any law allowing homeschooling b/c that would anger them. Of course, they also won’t pass a law outlawing homeschooling either, b/c that would anger other people. So, the easiest thing for said politician to do is nothing.
Hmm… sounds like Congress and abortion.
Comment by cranky-d on 3/6 @ 2:26 pm #
My understanding of the Federal Constitution is that while some rights are enumerated, the fact is that the Constitution is supposed to say what government can do, not what it cannot do. The ninth and tenth amendments should make that clearer if it isn’t already. Also, State Constitutions were written pretty much in line with the Federal Constitution.
Therefore, one should not be asking what rights the parents have, as much as asking what part of the California Constitution says the state has the right to deny the right of parents to raise their children as they see fit, as long as their needs are met and their education appears proper (which can be measured the same as it is for public-schooled children, standardized tests).
Comment by kelly on 3/6 @ 2:26 pm #
It was actually the 2nd District, BJ. But, like you, as I read the post title and the opening sentence, I was already thinking, “Gotta be the 9th…again.”
I share your mortification of having to relocate to the Bay area. I love visiting there but couldn’t bear to live anywhere near it. Hell, I guess I could say the same thing about the entire state.
Comment by TmjUtah on 3/6 @ 2:31 pm #
If California public schools actually TAUGHT U.S. History or Government, the logical result would be that there would be a revolution, led by tenth graders, just prior to spring break.
It’s very much a case of ignorance = bliss.
California schools = socialism’s first line of defense against teh People they Serv!
Here in Utah there is serious foreshadowing of the rise of the untouchable teacher’s unions going on. It is become a race between the teachers (buying their donations by paying them bonuses as our ACT/NCLB scores fade) and agriculture/construction (look the other way on illegal immigration) as to who the legislature and governor will pander to most.
Our governor is becoming a boutique Republican; the word is he’s angling for a cabinet post under McCain.
Comment by David on 3/6 @ 2:31 pm #
My wife and I (well, my wife anyway) have homeschooled our children from the very beginning. Two are married now and one is in college. All did well (upper 95th percentile) on their GED and well on the SAT. Through all of that, one of most asinine comments that we’ve always heard is that we were “robbing” our children of their opportunity to socialize and learn social skills.
Most people who question our homeschooling don’t argue that children will get a better education by going to public school. They always throw out the useless canard of “socializing” children. Since when is socializing supposed to be the mission of public schools? my understanding of the public school mission was that they were supposed to teach our children to learn to speak, write, read and do math. Somehow though their mission has evolved into what it is today. Anyway, regardless whether that is the mission or not, the question we should be asking (particularly if we believe that is their mission) is…do they do it well or at least as well as parents could do? Obviously if you were to ask Nishi that question his response would be that he thought they did.
Whenever I am asked about socializing for my children and my response is always the same:
What socializing is it that you’re asking me about? Is it the socializing that tells an 11 or 12-year-old girl at oral sex is okay? Is it to socializing that tells young kids “you’re going to do it anyway so do it with a condom”? Is it the socializing that tells teenage kids that drugs are okay? Or smoking? how about the socializing that tells kids they don’t have to listen to their parents? or how about the socializing that tells kids that recycling is more important than engineering? Or that mother Gaia and worshiping mother Gaia is more important than worshiping God? Or rebelling against authority? For the most part those questions elicit stutters and incoherent responses, but no one ever denies that in its current version public education does teach children those above values (they are not good values but they are values).
so if we ask ourselves that question, are the public schools doing a good job at socializing our children, then the way we answer that question is (pardon me while I offend you with a scriptural reference Nishi) “by their fruit shall ye know them”
Nishi, threw out the, probably single, reference of a homeschooled Christian person who went on a shooting rampage. If in response I began listing those who were not homeschooled but public schooled and went on a shooting rampage, the list would be too long for this comment. Look it up though Nishi, Columbine, Virginia Tech, Northern Illinois University … take it as far back as you want… the McDonald’s massacre in San Ysidro California. All public-school educated! All public-school socialized! How about the questions that I asked? Answer those questions Nishi.
Look at the list of homeschoolers who have gone on to lead marvelous wonderful lives. Google it. The list is long and distinguished. Admittedly, so is the list of public-school educated people who have gone on to lead long and distinguished lives. But idiotically saying “look at this one person who did something bad” and implying that this represents everyone in that group shows that you either are willfully ignorant or you are educated in a public school. (and I’m just kidding about that last part, well, not the willfully ignorant part)
Comment by MayBee on 3/6 @ 2:39 pm #
Darleen-
I keep getting emails from our school district (not LAUSD) about the upcoming state budget crisis affecting the money that will be going to education. I’ll admit that I’m not paying much attention, but (from memory) the district said California spends less per student than 48 other states.
Comment by BJTexs on 3/6 @ 2:44 pm #
David: Well said.
Cranky D:
Ah but this judge decided that it was more important to read the Education Code and interpret it narrowly to say that the code itself demands accredidation and, conveniently, there is no constitutional right for parents to control any aspect of their child’s education. What did the founders know, those old tools of the patriarchy?
First Kelo, now this. What a world.
Comment by mojo on 3/6 @ 2:44 pm #
jon: I’ve never read the California Constitution
Aw, c’mon! It’s only 110 pages of closely-spaced legalese!
Comment by MayBee on 3/6 @ 2:48 pm #
Anyway, not that it matters (about CA $$). I think this is a horrible decision. My kids used to beg me to home school them. I never did, but it pains me to think it ever would have not been an option. I had a friend who homeschooled her elementary age kids because she felt the school wasted their time, and she could get in a good education (including German!) and give them more time to play.
The universal preschool thing is horrible. It almost more than anything is what keeps me from voting D. I hated it when schools started moving toward all day K. I had my kids because I want them around!
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 2:49 pm #
MayBee
the district said California spends less per student than 48 other states.
I call bullshit. The district is flat out lying.
LAUSD has a $13 bil operating budget
That’s over $17,800 per student. Tell me how the f**king hell that school district, or any CA school district can claim it doesn’t have the money to run efficient, child centered, educationally excellent organizations with that kind of cash?
Comment by B Moe on 3/6 @ 2:56 pm #
I don’t know anything about the California Constitution, except that is can’t violate the U.S. Constitution, and this seems to be another case where people seem to forget how that document works. The Constitution doesn’t grant the citizens rights, it grants rights to the government on behalf of the citizens. The judge doesn’t need to find where the government gives parents right to homeschool, he needs to find where the Constitution gives the government parental rights over your children.
Comment by MayBee on 3/6 @ 2:59 pm #
I call bullshit. The district is flat out lying.
This is what they say:
1. Question: What is the situation?
Answer: The State of California currently faces an estimated $16 billion deficit going into the 2008/09 school year. The Governor has proposed sweeping cuts both in the current year and next year in order to address the situation. The [my] School District receives over 85% of its funding from the State of California and, based on the Governor’s proposal, would stand to lose over $6.8 million dollars in funding next year alone.
—
11. Question: How does California compare nationally in terms of spending per pupil?
Answer: The most recent data shows that California has continued to fall behind the rest of the nation in per pupil spending. The “quality counts†survey, which is published nationally, showed California as 47th out of 50 in terms of per pupil spending when adjusted for regional differences. If California were to receive just what the “average†school district is spending per pupil based upon this most recent study, [my] Schools would have nearly $22 million in additional funding!
—-
They may be lying, I don’t know. They aren’t asking for anything, just putting out information. I haven’t been paying that much attention, but they seem really upset.
Comment by MayBee on 3/6 @ 3:00 pm #
I will also add that the district is excellent. They aren’t trying to make excuses for anything that I can think of. Again though, I don’t think it matters and I probably shouldn’t have said anything.
Comment by BJTexs on 3/6 @ 3:04 pm #
I’d be looking for a more in depth explanation of that adjustment.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 3:05 pm #
BTW Maybee, if the district is only talking about State funds above, then it drops to about $8400/student.
They play with the figures never telling you all the different pipelines of money comes to the district. It’s one of the perverse reasons districts are so anxious to shuffle kids off into special ed and not let ‘em get out… those yummy federal dollars.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 3/6 @ 3:11 pm #
“Comment by Lost My Cookies on 3/6 @ 1:12 pm #
That said, if I wanted to take my kids out and teach them in my barn, I should be allowed. ”
I hate to nitpick, but how could you tell the difference?
Comment by Wolfhound on 3/6 @ 3:15 pm #
So this is what happens when home schoolers win the national spelling bee 8 years in a row. If you can’t win fairly, involve a judge.
Comment by B Moe on 3/6 @ 3:19 pm #
If you can’t win fairly, involve a judge.
None of this would have happened if homeschoolers would just agree to drug testing.
Pingback by Home schooling in California « Wolking’s World on 3/6 @ 3:23 pm #
[...] Wisdom has a post providing some helpful background to the recent [...]
Comment by Penny on 3/6 @ 3:23 pm #
re: Socialization — my home-schooled daughter was safe at home the night her public-schooled best friend was gang raped at a party. Most kids are better off without most aspects of middle school and high school socialization.
Comment by Stephen L. Hall, Esq. on 3/6 @ 3:25 pm #
What no one seems to have noticed is the big red and white target the liberals have thus painted on the school system. If the state usurps that much control over education, then they, by definition, take on that much more liability for their failure. If the state insists on teaching sex education, the state assumes liability for teen pregnancy. The state controls the curriculum, the state then has strict liability if the information is false. This is the Achilles heel they have exposed, the question remains whether these parents will take proper aim at the target. ;^)
Comment by Kini on 3/6 @ 3:25 pm #
Quoting Poster Wolfhound “If you can’t win fairly, involve a judge.”
It’s the demokrat thing to do.
Comment by Taisa on 3/6 @ 3:28 pm #
Terrible ruling.
I was home schooled until I was 12 (by my secular, very lefty parents), and when I did join regular public schools I was well ahead of the other kids my age.
This seems like a pretty fundamental interference in the rights of parents.
Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 3/6 @ 3:31 pm #
I know several home-schoolers. All of them are liberal. Not the classical kind, either.
You beat me to it, Karl. Just about the finest, most vibrantly loving family I’ve ever met are liberal homeschoolers. Christian, though.
Comment by tyree on 3/6 @ 3:31 pm #
The military academies have started to focus on getting more home schooled students. They found that the emphasis on self help and self discipline makes for a better student.
Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 3/6 @ 3:32 pm #
Thomas Sowell was right when he said that teachers unions want to keep children in public schools for the same reason farmers want to keep their livestock in corrals: that’s how they make their money.
Comment by BJTexs on 3/6 @ 3:34 pm #
Stephen: Not only is that intriguing, it also seems like a great opportunity to improve cash flow. :-)
Unfortunately the burden for paying those successfull judgments or settlements will fall upon the already creaking backs of California Taxpayers.
But, hey! I live in Pennsylvania so have at it!
Comment by mojo on 3/6 @ 3:41 pm #
Nit:Pick
Individuals have rights. Governments have powers.
Comment by Belvedere jones on 3/6 @ 3:41 pm #
yeesh The trend seems to be that the last decision parents will be able to make is whether to actually have the child.
“(2) the child is tutored by a person holding a valid state teaching credential for the grade being taught”
So a homeschooler would need a credential for every grade? And apparently a credential for every subject in Jr HS or HS?
Comment by Radish on 3/6 @ 3:42 pm #
Socialization. Pfeh. I was bullied for 10 years straight, and I spent more classroom time acting as an unpaid teacher’s assistant–”Finished? Go help the slow kids so I can have a cigarette in the lounge!”–than actually learning anything (in retrospect, I should have demanded a salary, but I didn’t know much when I was 8-9). If I ever have kids there is no way in hell I’m sending them to a public school.
Wisconsin has one of those internet schools with licensed teachers giving out lesson plans to students who work at home; the governor and teachers’ union have been trying to shut it down because it might take jobs away from teachers at traditional schools.
Comment by Stephen L. Hall, Esq. on 3/6 @ 3:44 pm #
BJTexs, I live in West Virginia, but to butcher an old saying, “if it doesn’t work, break it.” Financial destruction of your political enemies it the first play in the liberal handbook, and quite effective. Finances broke the KKK, the same strategy can break the Education Monopoly. But if you don’t like that, sue them for federal Anti-trust violations, the proceeds to go to funding those same home schools. ;^)
Comment by Carolynp on 3/6 @ 3:46 pm #
I was having lunch with two friends a year ago. One of them is the head of a math department in a CA public school, the other was saying she was sending her son to public school because she wanted to support public education. My girlfriend who is a teacher said, “If you really want to support public education, keep your kids in private schools. We are overcrowded.” California doesn’t have the resources or ability to educate the kids they have. Also, as I read the decision, it also affects private schools because many teachers in private schools aren’t credentialled. If homeschoolers and private schools started funneling their kids into the public schools, there would be a nearly instant collapse. These judges are morons. Just that simple.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 3:47 pm #
Radish
I’ve been hunting down the links to that debacle. I’m going to update with it soon.
It’s not just taking union jobs away (since the virtural school teachers are members of the same union) but because of the basic contempt the teacher’s union has for parents.
Comment by sashal on 3/6 @ 3:47 pm #
Interestingly enough, but I’ll tell you guys , that socialist schools in China or USSR gave on average better education then in majority of public schools here. If you take out philosophical brainwashing of the kids in those socialist schools , science education over there was much stronger then here.
Why is that do you think?
Is there any way to improve public education without throwing at it more billions of $$$ (and the result still could be the same?) and make USA more competitive again on the world brain market?
Pingback by NO RIGHT TO HOMESCHOOL « Texas Hold ‘Em Blogger on 3/6 @ 3:49 pm #
[...] Protein Wisdom comes this observation: First parents are told they have no rights beyond the public school threshold, now they are told [...]
Comment by BJTexs on 3/6 @ 3:53 pm #
Hmmm, Steven, I like it! Perhaps it’s time for the California socialocracy to be bankrupted and built back from scratch.
Easy for me to say.
Comment by Blind Howling Moonbat on 3/6 @ 3:53 pm #
Why is that do you think?
What happened to teachers who didn’t do their jobs satisfactorily?
Comment by cranky-d on 3/6 @ 3:59 pm #
The school system is broken on a number of levels, and money won’t fix that. What follows is neither inclusive nor in any particular order. There are many things being taught that go beyond what most here would consider to be proper, including many things in the progressive agenda. Instead of competition, children are all taught to feel good about themselves as they are rather than trying to improve themselves. But one of the worst things is that many parents think that it’s the school’s job to do all the teaching. My sister is a substitute teacher, and not only has she told me about some of the knowledge deficiencies of teachers, but how little many of the parents care what’s happening.
Finally, in many cases the kids have an attitude that nothing they will learn is useful, and as a result many are disrespectful. My sister gets called “bitch” often by the higher grades, and has been told to ignore that because so many worse things can be said and done. She prefers the younger ones anyway; they are more interested in learning. So the parents have taught their kids to not respect education, and the kids have at least learned that lesson.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 4:01 pm #
Like nishi, I’m a self-professing conservative/libertarian-leaning conservative/Libertarian. Which is why I agree with Mrs. Clinton:
There is no such thing as other people’s children. — Hillary Clinton
Okay, with that out of the way, and with the knowledge that perception is reality, I think I’ll not argue this issue on merits (like nishi surely wude) because perception of merit then becomes the reality of what is in effect the mob rule of statism. Because our current statist velocity is is not going to be slowed arguing positions.
There are no positions. Anti-family collectivism is simply unconstitutional. Write your fucking deadbeat legislators.
Enough with the comparisons already. Reading is already fundamental. So is phoning and demanding.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/6 @ 4:05 pm #
I haven’t read the opinion yet.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 4:05 pm #
Which is ironic because California can barely educate the students it can’t afford to.
Comment by sashal on 3/6 @ 4:06 pm #
Here is a thought ,cranky-d, I know I will be crucified for it here.
Do kids in public schools have too much freedom?
should we put stronger requirements to their results and achievements?
should they be punished for disrespectful behaviour towards teachers?
should bad teachers be fired ? etc, etc,
Comment by Karl on 3/6 @ 4:07 pm #
HotAir-lanche!
Comment by happyfeet on 3/6 @ 4:08 pm #
Oh. I think Darleen’s #53 should be like appended to the original post, with maybe some insight into whatever (3) is all about, cause that sort of splains it to where I think I see what the deal is.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 4:09 pm #
#112:
That would be to espouse a philosophy of morality at the state level, sashal. What about the separation clause?
Comment by BJTexs on 3/6 @ 4:09 pm #
Sashal: Yes to all!
Comment by newton on 3/6 @ 4:13 pm #
Well, I guess there’s only one thing left to do. “Let the Supreme Court decide!”
Comment by wally on 3/6 @ 4:15 pm #
i see the 9th circus court is up to its typical antics…one can only
hope that california does in fact drop off into the pacific ocean and
soon.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 4:16 pm #
How would we do that, BJTexs, and remain faithful to a prior constitutional standard that prevented the US government training its citizens in a centralized morality imposed, it seems here, unavoidably?
Comment by cranky-d on 3/6 @ 4:17 pm #
sashal: yes to all.
It used to be that kids would get punished in school, their parents would be called in, and the kids would get punished again when they got home. Now, the kids are sent to a counselor to “talk about their problems.” Sometimes it will work, most of the time it doesn’t seem to help.
Holding them, and their teachers, to higher standards would be a great way to start.
Comment by sashal on 3/6 @ 4:17 pm #
#115
Just a philosophy for getting good education, JHoward.
I remember how I hated certain studies in school, but requirements were very strict if one wanted to graduate or even make it to the next level.
So I had to study certain subjects I did not feel like I have to..
I hated it then,but I am thankful for it now
Pingback by Homeschooling is NOT Imperiled in California « Gabriel Malor on 3/6 @ 4:21 pm #
[...] to the end of homeschooling in this state. Michelle Malkin, Susan Duclos of Wake up America, and Darleen Click at Protein Wisdom have all noted it and discussed the implications of the case with some degree of outrage. I admit, [...]
Comment by B Moe on 3/6 @ 4:21 pm #
When exactly did it go from the government needs to provide a public education to those who want it to the government must educate all? When did it go from an opportunity to an obligation? Was there a pivotal moment/court decision or has it just been a slow decline?
I have never had children so I haven’t really paid much attention to these things.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 4:22 pm #
We already expect this from Obamessiah and Mother Clinton. What bugs me is that we can also expect it from McCain. McCain already swore off dealing with the parallel issue of local family courts violating the bill of rights in order to arbitrarily reallocate kids and property because Washington pays them to.
Comment by Radish on 3/6 @ 4:22 pm #
Darleen: “the virtural school teachers are members of the same union”
Yes. But the virtual school doesn’t need to hire as many of them, since all they do is lesson plans and grading. You can effectively teach a lot more kids when you don’t spend half the day (or more) herding people through lines, recess duty, nap/snack time, show-and-tell, cartoons, bananas-on-condoms, study hall, detention, etc. You also don’t have to hire I think the number they were throwing around was 1 virtual teacher per 30 students and in brick schools they want 15 or less for lower grades and 20 or less for high school classes.
Virtual schools also don’t need janitors, cafeteria workers, bus drivers…I’m unfamiliar with a cafeteria worker union, but at least in the city there’s a “social justice” component to trying to preserve unskilled low-wage jobs.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 4:24 pm #
Which isn’t what you implied in #112.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 4:29 pm #
Whose standard would that be? And by what authority?
Evidence of the inherent contradiction within state schooling is naturally seen in state schools not applying discipline in the first place. In a vague nod to not establishing a governmental moral code — because of The Other and all that entails — you get moral chaos. We cannot have our cake and eat it too.
Well, until today that is. I’m sure they’re getting closer and closer to free zero-point fiscal energy all the while hewing precisely to the New Living Constitution.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 4:35 pm #
cranky
It’s really a vicious cycle. I was fortunate to be a SAHM for about 16 years. I was able to shepherd the girls through school both public and private and I was an involved parent in school.
And learned really early that as much as the school says they want you there, you are not an equal. Indeed, open your mouth about anything and you run a lot of risk. The school admin loves you raising $$$, writing checks to ‘em, cleaning up classrooms, and bringing sugar-free jello snacks but don’t you DARE presume to even make suggestions on anything doing with their “mission”.
I remember one Back to School night meeting my daughter’s teacher for the first time, she had us parents sit in those little chairs then proceeded to harrange us of what she expected of us and our kids for the year. It wasn’t “we are partners in your child’s education” it was a totalitarian rant that made me wonder wtf the rest of the year was going to be like since school had been in session for only a couple of weeks!
After a while, most parents get the message. Teacher=god, parent=worshipper
Comment by PierreLegrand on 3/6 @ 4:46 pm #
Well I almost hope that it doesn’t go to the Supreme Court. Every time I have depended on their “wisdom” they have bent me over the kitchen table and gave it to me without a kiss…can you say Kelo, Campaign Finance and I don’t expect much on the DC Gun Ban Ruling now that 2nd Amendment Loving Bush administration has filed a bit on the side of DC. It could be disastrous to the entire homeschooling movement, around the country, if the Supremes got the case and made a bad decision.
We home school our 3 children. It is so rewarding that I would consider disobeying the law should the Government try to take that right away from me.
Aside from the tremendous education they are receiving the benefits of not being indoctrinated into the Socialist/Gaia/New Age bullshit are amazing. My eldest can out reason most adults she runs into. She works harder than any 5 public or private school kids, both at school and around the house.
The statistics of homeschoolers who go on to start their own businesses is very impressive.
This decision pandered to the Public Teachers Unions…to see just how powerful they believe themselves to be witness this idiocy.
Education Revolt in Watts
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 5:00 pm #
I have nine nieces and nephews and one child of my own. My child, now in her senior year of HS, was public schooled and a victim of the family law industry until 2007, meaning unable to choose.
My nieces and nephews were all completely home schooled. All of them are high achievers, some to the tune of three full grades past their age group. They include seven musicians, 100% college entrance of those of age, two businesspeople, an emergency medical staffer, and a semi-pro ballplayer, My daughter just entered home schooling in her final year. Her grades immediately doubled and she’s just qualified for a major scholarship ride.
She pulled her only F in public junior high five years ago. It was “the best in the city”.
That’s as subjective as I’ll get. The question I have is why would anyone with a choice let their kids be state schooled? I realize that part of the answer involves the general decline of social performance accompanied by an increase in living costs: By now we can’t afford to leave the very system that’s lowered our standards of living.
Welfare impoverishes those it would financially liberate. Likewise, state schooling enslaves those it would free to think.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 5:04 pm #
JHoward
Successful homeschooling involves at least one parent sacrificing all or most of an outside career.
What support (social, cultural, legal) does such a person get nowadays?
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 5:07 pm #
#129 Pierre
thanks for that video. Notice the sheer hostility to anything other than gubmint/union schools.
“Vampires!” wow
Comment by sashal on 3/6 @ 5:09 pm #
JHoward.
It is great that you can afford time and money to do homeschooling.
How about those who can not, but would love to get real education.
Those are the people I was talking about
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 5:17 pm #
sashal
parents have to organize and strike back, as in the Watts video in #129. Big districts have to be broken up, big schools have to be broken down. And if it takes parents to go to school and sit in on kids classes and exposing the corruption, then its time for civil disobedience.
/soapbox
Comment by A fine scotch on 3/6 @ 5:29 pm #
Darleen,
Gabriel Malor over at Ace says that the LAT got the story wrong and homeschooling without credentials will still be allowed.
See here:http://ace.mu.nu/#257230
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 5:42 pm #
A fine scotch
I was just over at Gabriel’s place. While homeschoolers are, at present, not covered where they have established themselves as “private schools” (which I refer to near the end of my post), the wording is still too vague to give warm fuzzies. What constitutes “persons capable of teaching?” There’s the rub since we know that the CTA and UTLA thinks of parents.
Comment by cranky-d on 3/6 @ 5:47 pm #
I don’t care if the LAT got it wrong. I’m maintaining my outrage anyway.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/6 @ 5:54 pm #
This was a lot of reading. I thought about it over Chinese and decided really the best thing to do would be to fix the law, which could be done pretty quickly I think. If that doesn’t work then someone hopefully not too zany will have to organize a nationwide boycott of all things made or grown in California, including media. That’s what I decided over Chinese. They’re kind of sensitive about their finances these days, cause they screwed them up pretty bad cause they’re not very good at that sort of thing here.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/6 @ 5:55 pm #
Oh. Unless it’s all a big misunderstanding.
Comment by Gabriel Malor on 3/6 @ 5:57 pm #
Regarding the question of whether there is a constitutional right to homeschool your children: assuming for the moment that such a right existed, there is no way that it would be absolute. States have (and society in general has) a great interest in seeing that citizens are educated. Existing federal precedent establishes that compulsory education is constitutional. More than that and most importantly for those who hysterically claim that the state is trying to compel public school attendance, the Supreme Court has held that states must allow alternatives to public education. Whether that alternative must take the form of homeschooling has not been litigated.
Also, the meaning of “persons capable of teaching” has never been litigated in California. That doesn’t mean that homeschool parents start at a disadvantage, however. As amusing as it may be to pretend that the big bad teachers’ unions have parents over a barrel, it is always the case. On this issue, parents and unions are equally disadvantaged by the unexplored territory.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/6 @ 5:57 pm #
wow…im not banned?
Comment by Gabriel Malor on 3/6 @ 5:59 pm #
Hmm, that second to last sentence should have read:
“As amusing as it may be to pretend that the big bad teachers’ unions have parents over a barrel, it is NOT always the case.”
Sorry.
Comment by Darleen on 3/6 @ 6:09 pm #
Gabriel
Parents do, indeed, start at a disadvantage when competing with the CTA or UTLA. They have deep pockets and lots of political power and they make it their business to scare the bejeebus out of parents (and apostate teachers) who don’t toe the line.
I was in the public school trenches for way too long to trust this to a judiciary that is almost as hostile to parents as teachers.
The CA state legislature should step up to the plate.
there is no way that it would be absolute.
Try that line of argument on pro-abortion advocates.
ok off snark, but seriously, parents are told to “butt out” when it comes to the curriculum and now even a modest right to control their kids education is waved away.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/6 @ 6:10 pm #
Oh but also what I thought about over Chinese, cause a friend of mine is getting a PhD in something like Computer Aided Education or somesuch, and sometimes I pay full and complete attention when she talks about it, is that it seems for real that homeschooling would benefit from looking toward the development of national online curricula what can be adapted to meet the needs of particular kids. National, not state by state. Just cause there’s an interest I think in aggregating as many kids as you can under a common rubric, and also that way you could serve more diverse subsets of kids with particular needs or talents. Public school is a very nice idea but in California it’s not really a very nice thing to do to your own children.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 6:11 pm #
Well, then there you have your choice — choose your poison. Me, I can’t think of a better way to wreck kids than to institutionalize them.
So I can’t help you with that, nor, I suspect, can government, except to make it essential that there are two working parents per home, just to make the monthly obligations. What I implied in the second to last paragraph in #130.
This is one of those incomplete causes-and-effects arguments that never seem to get back to questioning a school system that costs 2x what private education does. Since when would we expect the public domain to do one thing right when it does everything else wrong?
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 6:12 pm #
Oh, and Darleen, in my examples, only one of the two mothers involved stays at home. The other runs a 30 person, 20 year-old business she established with her husband. She has a hired tutor.
Again, choices determine the quality of life. And in these cases, all of them private.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/6 @ 6:14 pm #
okfine.
true confessions time.
i am a corrupt data sample.
i have been to that megachurch in the springs. colorado springs. i have a good friend that attends. she volunteers her time with YPAC, which is a sort of performing arts dealio for young xians. that church has huge, like jesus-off-broadway productions at xmas and easter, with like 4 choirs an onstage iceskaters and an orchestra and light show.
she knew the girls that got shot first, in the parking lot.
she said….that kid could have benefitted from a good coeducational public school education…he was socially retarded.
OTOH….i know ppl that went to columbine.
they were there when it happened.
im close to the same age the columbine killahs wud be if they were still alive.
those guyz didnt get socialized from a co-educational education.
the columbine killahs cud have used a modicum, just a crumb of parental attention….they had a freaking bomb factory in ones garage.
so i really dont know anything. it all anecdotal data.
i do know im against school vouchers.
charter schools are voucher schools now…they demand some extra “tuition” in parental involvement.
school vouchers wont make public schools competitive…it will just make it possible for students with involved, caring parents to escape.
and abandon the students without those parents.
i think public school, the idea that everyone deserves a good basic education,,,,is kindof quintessentially american.
im sry if u think the gov is watchdoggin u on homeschoolin….but u shud meet standards.
if u think they are unfair standards, work to change them.
thats all i got.
Comment by Merovign on 3/6 @ 6:15 pm #
Other that Nishi’s Moral Vacuum, interesting commentary on interesting times we live in.
I think Gabriel may be right that the effect is less damaging than it seems, but the intent is pretty clearly to eliminate private education, i.e. competition. If private monopolies are bad, how much worse public monopolies? Especially ones with the ABYSMAL track record of the public school system?
As to the original point, amendments 9 and 10 are pretty clear on the subject, but the courts are terrified to risk the rest of the unconstitutional restrictions and agencies that could be challenged on that basis.
Comment by Gabriel Malor on 3/6 @ 6:16 pm #
there is no way that it would be absolute.
Try that line of argument on pro-abortion advocates.
Darleen, the state heavily restricts abortion in this country. By no stretch of the horrified imagination could abortion be construed as an absolute right. States are allowed to limit the times when (pre-viability) and the places where they occur. They may impose parental consent laws. They may impose waiting periods. They may impose fully informed consent rules.
This doesn’t detract from the fact that abortion in this country is God-awful, but no one can claim with any credibility that the “right to choose” is absolute.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 6:16 pm #
I cannot afford it, actually. My child lives with extended family. We made hard choices.
Regardless, your argument depends on the myth of free education and it simultaneously, naturally, advocates dependency. It ignores the tremendous fiscal and social costs of a failed government school system.
Again, you makes your choices. Dependency just isn’t one I’m willing to select.
Comment by kelly on 3/6 @ 6:40 pm #
Good gawd. That video (#129) was soul-deadening.
I’ve always merely disliked unions. over the years I’ve come to fucking hate them. Fucking thugs.
Comment by jd salinger on 3/6 @ 6:46 pm #
Charles Whitman and Ted Kaczinski were “socialized” in public schools too. Come think of it so were the Columbine kidz.
Comment by datadave on 3/6 @ 6:48 pm #
Maybe it has something to do with Max Rafferty, Proposition 13, and Ronald Reagan.
Hey, Vermont doesn’t have this problem (if it exists..probably only in your head). Some of my friends homeschool their boys and the local school district will still let them use facilities or take occasional classes if needed without resentment … after all homeschoolers pay school taxes. Vermont only requires that a lesson plan be followed in accordance to age and grade and that occasional records are made of student’s progress within the home. Which is logical and necessary to prevent illiteracy and exploitation.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 6:53 pm #
All of which is ultimately circular because it replaces constitutional principle with rulings (which then immediately devolves into arguments about originalist intent, etc.) Before you jump on that for that very reason, realize that if rulings can say, for example, that the state has an interest in medicating its citizens, and if that interest serves some detached term lifted from the Constitution and then used out of original context, then forced collectivized medicine becomes constitutional.
Thereby I have no right to not be medicated, and that for constitutional cause. I have had contemporary unenumerated rights claimed by the state trump with my former enumerated right to privacy and freedom.
The statement that the State has an interest in the education of its citizens is true but it is not a truth to be trumped over more immediate and obvious truths, such as the right to remain personally sovereign before what amounts to unavoidable indoctrination, or if you prefer a more objective term, questionable scholastic standards with historically questionable outcomes virtually imposed by lobby, legislature, and bench upon society.
The notion that only forced collectivization can provide education, however, is false. I find the notion of “no constitutional right to educate privately” both ill-advised and intellectually offensive — it is akin to proving innocence as it reverses the cart and the horse. I don’t owe the government a secondary proof of lawful private sector behavior or concept. Meanwhile, the government still owes me my primary enumerated rights. The courts can twist in the same political winds they always have but one cannot make a cogent, convincing, honest argument that courts may arbitrarily force behavior merely by proclaiming it constitutional.
“Hysterically” implies intent. Intent is meaningless in the legal, constitutional context you raised — you seem to accord a ruling concerning State control of what’s lawful behavior that cool, objective, constitutional status but those opposing such are emotional hysterics. I propose you have it backwards.
Stand in a courtroom and be scorned as a Constitutionalist and then tell me the bench acts with infallible constitutional interest one hundred percent of the time. It surely does not. And it surely is not by default “constitutional” any more than those opposing its encroachment are hysterical.
Comment by kelly on 3/6 @ 6:56 pm #
You’re such a tedious, predictable twat.
Comment by John on 3/6 @ 7:17 pm #
Anyone who thinks most home school experiences can match my ISD is dreaming. We have 10 kinds of computer classes. We send more kids to state and national contests in Health Occupations than all but two other schools in the nation. We have 50 plus organizations for kids to join. We have many athletic teams, debate and service clubs representing over 35 states and countless countries from around the world.
Of course we have 400 to 500 new students each year. Many of them have a wide variety of issues. We provide services to all the kids.
A parent came in today with a new student that needs special education services. The dad also had his daughter with him. She was going to a home school co-op. This really galls me. He was not willing to give his daughter the experience of attending our school. Many of the faculty members are caring Christians. I am very offended by the attitude of this dad.
Comment by JHoward on 3/6 @ 7:29 pm #
I think you should get a law passed. Call it constitutional. You’d be less galled.
Comment by Kirk on 3/6 @ 7:30 pm #
DataDave, I can imagine what happens to home school kids that fail to meet state expectations.
What happens to state school kids that fail?
Comment by Civilis on 3/6 @ 7:38 pm #
From Nishinozoshinji (translated for clarity):
“I do know [that] I’m against school vouchers. Charter schools are voucher schools now; they demand some extra “tuition†in parental involvement. School vouchers won’t make public schools competitive, [they] will just make it possible for students with involved, caring parents to escape and abandon the students without those parents. I think public school, the idea that everyone deserves a good basic education, is kind of quintessentially American.”
The problem is that under the current system not everyone is getting the good basic education that you believe that they deserve. Is it better to have all students with involved and caring parents able to get a good basic education with vouchers or only have students with involved, caring and rich parents able to get a good basic education?
Involved and caring parents are a necessary but not always sufficient prerequisite for a good education (there may be occasional exceptions for particularly self-motivated students, but this is true enough for our purposes). It doesn’t matter what you do to the public education system but the vast majority of students without involved and caring parents will not get a good education. Some students with involved and caring parents will be able to get a good education in any school system. Most students with involved and caring parents will get a better education in a better school. The problem is that we’ve found that we can’t improve the public school system. So the choice is either leave those students who might benefit from a better education trapped in the current public education system that they already have to pay for or allow them to get a better education elsewhere. If you think the “quintessentially American” fairytale of everyone magically getting a good education is worth denying a good education to those that might benefit from it, it’s your right. But don’t expect that everyone should feel that way.
Comment by CelticDragon on 3/6 @ 8:08 pm #
#156 John, No offense, Fuck You. you have no right and the state doesn’t either, to tell that man how to raise his kids. I don’t care if your school IS literally Heaven on Earth, it won’t be a match for all kids. Any school that makes that claim is lying.
Comment by javems on 3/6 @ 8:16 pm #
So, do I need a constitutional right of masturbate. I think the U.S. Constitution covers both equally.
Comment by jdm on 3/6 @ 8:29 pm #
I don’t care if your school IS literally Heaven on Earth
and Cuba has great healthcare and the trains ran on time in Mussolini’s Italy and Franco made sure that… and Stalin… and Pinochet… and… geez.
Comment by DANEgerus on 3/6 @ 8:50 pm #
Abraham Katsman is explaining what makes a (D)emocrat, via the NEA
Obama has tapped into is the first generation educated in schools focused on “self-esteem.” Now, the products of self-esteem education have come of political age in substantial numbers, perhaps with profound implications for this and future elections.
For the past two decades, America’s educational establishment has stressed the inculcation of self-esteem as the supreme educational goal. Self-respect - the product of struggle and achievement - is out; self-esteem - the entitlement tofeel great self-worth regardless of actual accomplishment - is in.
Strict correction of misspelling or of wrong answers to math problems is discouraged. Competition is a big no-no: many youth sports leagues forbid keeping score, lest any child’s self-esteem suffer from the indignity of losing. Posting honor rolls is discouraged, as it might injure the self-esteem of those who did not make the grade.
Grade inflation is rampant in schools: according to one recent study, about half of today’s college freshman had an “A” average in high school compared to under 20% in the late 1960s, even though SAT scores have tanked over the same period. The focus on self-esteem has, in a sense, been a huge success.
For example, American students have very high scores when asked to assess how good they are at math. Unfortunately, they have low/mediocre scores in actual math performance, routinely being outscored by students in most other developed countries.
Inevitably, however, such over-indulgence of students leads to increased narcissism, self-absorption, and sense of entitlement. Those with self-esteem disproportionate to their achievement tend to be less willing to take responsibility for their own failures, shortcomings, or bad behavior.
Coddled children raised to believe that any dream is not only attainable, but an entitlement granted regardless of actual effort and accomplishment are increasingly growing into depressed and stressed young adults as they rudely discover that the post-school world is not so cooperative and doesn’t really care about their dreams or their feelings. In the real world, they keep score.
Comment by Ric Locke on 3/6 @ 9:12 pm #
John, tell me: what does your school teach?
You bragged about the equipment and facilities (ten kinds of computer classes? wow). You told us all about the extracurricular activities and all about the fun the high achievers have. But what do the kids learn?
Specifically:
1) Given a truck trailer, a sample box, and a tape measure, how many of your students could be expected to figure out how many boxes will go in the trailer? Given in addition a scale, the tare weight of the trailer, and the maximum allowable weight, how many of your students could tell you whether all the boxes would go in a single load, legally?
2) Given the four names “Abraham Lincoln”, “Woodrow Wilson”, “Franklin Roosevelt”, and “Lyndon Johnson”, how many of your students could be expected to tell you what they all have in common? How many of them could put them in the right order?
3) How many of your students could find “Angola” on a map that was labeled? How about “Singapore”? Given the names of ten American States drawn at random from a hat, how many of your students could find at least nine of them on an unlabeled map?
4) How many of your students can write a sentence containing ten words or more? How many can do so without misspelling more than two words, not counting “an” and “teh”? How many can read a newspaper story and tell you what it’s about?
Here in Texas we have tests that have gone by several acronyms over the last few years; currently it’s TAKS, the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills. (The third letter changes a lot.) Kids have to pass it to advance grades, or to graduate from high school. Last year’s are on line here, courtesy one of our State Representatives. Look them over. Could your students pass them? [Note that we offer them in English and Spanish. It makes sense for Texas; there are lots of Hispanics who are real, live Native Texans.] Look ‘em over. I respectfully submit that anybody who can’t pass those needs to be planted, like the rest of the vegetables.
Those tests are now State law because Texas parents discovered that the schools weren’t teaching the kids anything at all. Oh, they were playing lots of football and having a wonderful time on field trips, and they all felt really, really good about themselves, but they didn’t know anything. Teachers are uniformly bitter about the tests. “We don’t have time to do anything but teach to the test,” they wail. Our hearts bleed. What we hear ‘em saying is that they don’t want to teach, and this forces them to. And it’s the crap that takes up all the rest of the time that we were pissed about in the first place.
No, don’t whine at me that testing doesn’t prove anything — the British have had standardized testing ever since they set up State-funded schooling, and it works for them. They even “track” students according to how they do on the test — kids lacking in interest in intellectual pursuits get directed toward vocational and practical education rather than professorships of English. O teh outrage! (I do agree that Americans shouldn’t do that).
NCLB is much the same thing. I know or have met quite a few excellent teachers and school administrators — but that isn’t the way to bet, and you know it. Stories like this get traction because the perception is that the schools have become sinecures for overpaid administrators and “special educators”, and otherwise twelve-year kindergartens whose function is to take the kids off their parents’ hands most of the day even among those who think that is a good thing.
Bonus question: How many of your teachers could answer my questions?
Double bonus: Can you?
Regards,
Ric
Comment by SmokeVanThorn on 3/6 @ 9:30 pm #
John
My 16 year old son is and always has been home-schooled. He has won several state wide awards in programs like Youth in Government, and attended national program like CONA. He has always had standardized test scores in the 99th percentile. He has been active in political campaigns since the year 2000, including - when he was 14 - training adult volunteers for telephone Get Out the Vote efforts. He does volunteer work for a local county commissioner. He progressed through AWANA to its ultimate level, the Timothy Award. He is a black belt in karate. He is a respectful, grateful kid.
But I can’t help but think that his mother and I (both former high school teachers) have done him a grave disservice by not allowing him the “experience of attending [your] school.”
If we have galled you, please forgive us. If we have offended you, please forgive us. We beseech you to pull some strings on his behalf and somehow get him into your IDS.
Dink.
Comment by blake on 3/6 @ 9:35 pm #
“Anyone who thinks most home school experiences can match my ISD is dreaming. We have 10 kinds of computer classes. We send more kids to state and national contests in Health Occupations than all but two other schools in the nation. We have 50 plus organizations for kids to join. We have many athletic teams, debate and service clubs representing over 35 states and countless countries from around the world.”
Hey, John, homeschoolers can beat that easily: They can provide the precise computer program their kids need, and allow them to join any club that matches their interest, as well as enter them in any competition that doesn’t specifically exclude homeschoolers. (’cause the spelling bee shows what happens when you allow homeschoolers….)
Comment by B Moe on 3/6 @ 9:48 pm #
We provide services to all the kids.
I was raised on a farm, John. I know what service means.
Comment by PierreLegrand on 3/6 @ 10:58 pm #
Anyone who thinks most home school experiences can match my ISD is dreaming. We have 10 kinds of computer classes. We send more kids to state and national contests in Health Occupations than all but two other schools in the nation. We have 50 plus organizations for kids to join. We have many athletic teams, debate and service clubs representing over 35 states and countless countries from around the world.
At age 8 my eldest daughter would wake up and help cook breakfast for 30 folks without being asked while we were on vacation. She would always help with the dishes no matter what meal we were enjoying. She has helped me build computers, additions, sheds and knows her way around weapons. In addition she knows more about US history than you do and knows more about Greek history than your students do. Her writing has been recognized nationally and she is a math wiz. You can shove your school and its socializing skills up where the sun dont shine.
Her mother and I are just sorry that we sent her to any formal school since she has done so well since we took her out of one of the most exclusive private schools in Baton Rouge. She picked up some bad habits there.
Comment by Lost My Cookies on 3/7 @ 6:56 am #
“I hate to nitpick, but how could you tell the difference?”
Barn smells better.
Seriously though, last year I removed my kids from the private school they were going to because there was little to no supervision, it was Lord of the Flies time. That’s the environment that I went to school in, lot’s of hazing, bullying, fighting etc, and my family put up with it because of the “better” education. When I finally made the decision to move my four boys to public school over home school or private Christian Acadamey it wasn’t done lightly. I live in a very rural area with lots of problems, almost 70% of kids in my younger son’s elementary school are on free or reduced lunch, there is a huge truancy problem, that said, my kids are thriving in these schools, their work has improved, they actually like school, and they have a whole host of opportunity that they did not have at the private school.
I’m lucky, I guess. But I’m also no teacher, so homeschooling wasn’t in the cards.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/7 @ 7:54 am #
sigh…there is a lot of anecdotal evidence on this thread.
i gave an example of a homeschooled kid that was profoundly socially maladjusted by reports of ppl that knew him and the victims. i gave an example of profound social maladjustment in public school (columbine).
other ppl gave examples of kids that thrived under both systems.
i attended both public and private schools..i thrived in public school.
some of my sibs thrived in private schools, interlochen arts academy and pathfinder school for girls.
cant it be that some do better in some situations, and some in others?
do you honestly think there shud be no standards for homeschool teachers?
this is america.
if u dont the way they are…fuckin change them.
those of u complainin about the public schools…suck it up and go charter, or go homeschool.
if the homeschool standards bug u…work to change them.
school vouchers will ghettoize our public school system..which i think is a fine system for the most part.
do w/e is best for your kids.
and finally…im not a parent yet…but i totally get a creepy feeling of that “my-kid-is-a-genius-but-the-teacher-cant-teach” off of some of u.
not every child is a genius. see the bell curve.
im a mathematician, so a word on that.
from my experience.
math is archealogical…it builds in layers.
it is very important that the child learns basic concepts in elementary school.
math is pretty simple at that age, i can say i think all parents should be able to help their child at that age.
it is nearly impossible to make up holes in the structure of mathematics later.
one bad math teacher can wreck a kids chances of ever being good in math, unless there is interventionif there is a wi.
however, one good lib arts teacher can inspire a child for life.
in secondary school, if your child is not gettin the math…get a tutor, change the teacher, tutor yourself, or have them repeat the class until they get it.
if there is hole in the structure of their learnin in math, they will begin to develop a biofeedback cycle of fear of math, anxiety, and inability to do the work. then they begin to hate math.
the best math teacher i had, the one that opened the door for me, also told us everyday that “math is the language of power” and he filled the classroom walls with clips of robots and spaceships and supercomputers and satellites.
certainly that is something you can do for your child, whether they are homeschooled, privateschooled, or publicschooled.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/7 @ 8:00 am #
i meant to say, if there is a will, there is a way, not get a wii. ;)
and my best teacher was a public school teacher.
peace out.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 3/7 @ 8:27 am #
Vouchers will not ghetoize the public shcools. That’s not the danger. The ghetoized public shools we already have are the result of impressively poor administrative decisions.
The danger of vouchers is that it allows the camels nose into the tent vis private schools. Once voucher money is accepted, those schools will have to meet governemt’s standards in order to be allowed to keep receiving it. We already do this to private colleges and universities.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 3/7 @ 8:42 am #
The idiot then proceeds to spew a bunch of her own, no doubt believing it’s “data” by virtue of coming from her barely-literate mind.
Nishi, you are not an argument for public schools. You are actually an argument against them.
Pingback by Homeschooling ban? « Twisted One 151’s Weblog on 3/7 @ 8:42 am #
[...] online; by the Pacific Justice Institute, who are defending the parents in the case in question; by Darleen Click at “protein wisdom“; and by Hans Bader at [...]
Comment by Darleen on 3/7 @ 8:49 am #
nishi
If you read some of the links I provided you would have seen that home schooled kids outperform their public school peers. Period. This doesn’t mean there are not lousy home/private schools or no good charter/public schools. Just because there are some lousy parents it doesn’t mean we never allow anyone to be parents (”they are the states’ children”). We have a default position that children are first the responsibility of parents and work from there. Part of parental obigations is that their children get a certain minimum of education and as a society we decide standards that education encompasses.
However, right now the power is with the state. They can and do ignore parents or even punish them when they attempt to “interfer” with anything beyond the threshold of the school door.
Comment by Darleen on 3/7 @ 8:52 am #
Once voucher money is accepted, those schools will have to meet governemt’s standards in order to be allowed to keep receiving it. We already do this to private colleges and universities.
RTO,
True. However I still hold that vouchers are the best way to improve public schools, because when all is said and done, public schools are still going to get the majority of children.
Comment by mojo on 3/7 @ 9:21 am #
On the other hand, once a parent is “credentialed” they could conceivably put in a claim for a chunk of that sweet, sweet gubmint moolah for educating their kids.
Wouldn’t THAT set the kitty amongst the pigeons, eh?
Comment by Dadofhomeschoolers on 3/7 @ 9:57 am #
Hey Nish:
I realize you grew up texting. You need to learn to get away from that, it makes you look illiterate and immature.
Employers also don’t look favorably on textese.
That said, Why can’t I educate my children in the manner in which they best learn? At home in our case. Why can’t I spend my money on my kids, instead of having it taken at legalized gunpoint and given to someone who is opposed to everything I believe in?
Yes, their mother stays home, she has the skills to make a lot of money, we choose to invest her time in something much more worthwhile.
It’s time for a tax revolt again.
Dadofhomeschoolers
Comment by Techie on 3/7 @ 10:03 am #
I basically taught my 10th grade “Physics” class, so the “teacher” who was actually the Track Coach wouldn’t have to strain his mind at the blackboard.
He was later fired for making passes at the girls in the class. But at least he was “credentialed” and we had a chance to socialize.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 3/7 @ 10:13 am #
Darleen, I hope it would work that way. Instead, I see as more likely a conversion of the Priovate Schools into de facto Public Schools and wht them being brought down rahter than the Publics being elevated.
Pingback by Ned’s Blog » Blog Archive » Interesting Take on the CA Homeschool Ruling on 3/7 @ 1:02 pm #
[...] to the end of homeschooling in this state. Michelle Malkin, Susan Duclos of Wake up America, and Darleen Click at Protein Wisdom have all noted it and discussed the implications of the case with some degree of outrage. I admit, [...]
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/8 @ 5:20 pm #
oh.
i get it.
school vouchers are to pay ppl that homeschool.
wow i am dumb.
Comment by Carin on 3/8 @ 5:34 pm #
school vouchers will ghettoize our public school system..which i think is a fine system for the most part.
do w/e is best for your kids.
The public schools in Detroit are already ghettoized. 33% grad rate. I think, for the most part, the vouchers will be used by those in the absolute WORST situations. Parents would flee the Detroit system, and it will crumble into itself until the school board, and teachers decide that they’d really better fucking do something.
How about some concern for all the thousands of kids that are being lost RIGHT now in the horrible public schools? That “one year” of bad math-that’s gonna set them astray… I’ll let you in on something - in Detroit, it goes on for more than one year.
Comment by Carin on 3/8 @ 5:36 pm #
‘Cause, honestly, I don’t really have a horse this fight. I pay for my kids supplies, and that’s the way I want it. I could only imagine if I took state money … I’d be doing Black History Month, and courses on how to put a condomn on a banana.
But, it breaks my heart to see OTHER people’s kids stuck in those lousy schools. Compassionate conservativism.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/9 @ 4:33 am #
perhaps parents have a constitutional right to homeschool their kids…just not a constitutional right to get paid for it ….unless the they pass the minimal accreditation standards that the teachers u complain so vociferously about have to pass.
and as for sex-ed, that is a another problem i have with the theocons. they seem to be hopelessly incaple of inclucating their own moral values in the their children, and instead want to censure the environment of things they deem inapropriate.
eventually those children will get out into the real world and some lack the basic toolset to deal.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/9 @ 4:34 am #
inculcationg
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/9 @ 4:39 am #
carin…i dont think it is the teachers that are the proximate cause of the graduation rate in detroit schools.
it is more likely mean SES of the neighborhoods.
otherwise all schools (which have the same state standards for teachers) would have comparable graduation rates.
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