According to Congress Daily:
To break an impasse over legislation overhauling the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, House Democratic leaders are considering the option of taking up a Senate-passed FISA bill in stages, congressional sources said today. Under the plan, the House would vote separately on the first title of the bill, which authorizes surveillance activities, and then on the bill’s second title, which grants retroactive legal immunity to telecommunications companies that aided the Bush administration’s warrantless electronic surveillance activities. The two would be recombined, assuming passage of both titles. In this way, Democratic leaders believe they can give an out to lawmakers opposed to the retroactive immunity provision. Republican leadership sources said their caucus would back such a plan because not only would it give Democratic leaders the out they need, it would provide a political win for the GOP…
If this scenario plays out — as it ultimately will in some form — left-liberals will be distraught. You might think that people who claim to value fairness would realize that the State Secrets Act renders the telcos unable to properly defend against the FISA-related lawsuits. Moreover, the fact that lawyers in just one of the dozens of class-action suits already filed against the telcos seeks $7.243 trillion in non-punitive damages– an amount roughly half of the GDP of the US — tends to make them seem a bit less than altruistic.
These facts — along with the understandable desire to have the telcos cooperate in the Terrorist Surveillance Program — may explain why both houses of Congress want to pass the FISA amendments. Accepting these inconvenient truths, however, would require some people to recognize that they are fringe left-liberals, far out of the mainstream of American politics.
You could write a book about them. Call it How Would a Patriot Antiwar Profiteer Act?
Comment by Slartibartfast on 3/1 @ 7:40 am #
Yeehaw! FREE MONEY!
Comment by Pablo on 3/1 @ 7:46 am #
And we get to destroy America’s telecommunications apparatus! Take that, you filthy
(dead air)
Comment by sashal on 3/1 @ 8:12 am #
I disagree with your position on immunity, Karl ( you know that).
PATRIOTIC private businesses do not need the coercion in the form of immunity to cooperate with the LAWFUL government requests, don’t they ?
And they still do, which McConnell admitted to even after PAA expired.
I understand the inconvinience of seeking the warrants after the facts, may be really tiresome, I guess.
Stalin is turning in his grave when he hears these discussions….
Comment by B Moe on 3/1 @ 8:34 am #
You keep ignoring the abuses of the tort system that make this necessary, sashal. They wouldn’t need immunity if they were able to defend themselves without revealing secrets, or if they could defend themselves without spending ridiculous amounts of money. Costs that ultimately will be paid by the consumers and shareholders. I have yet to hear someone explain to me how jacking up my phone rates to pay off some greasy lawyers is just compensation for having my phone lines tapped.
Comment by JD on 3/1 @ 9:05 am #
That is assuming, of course, that your phone was tapped, BMoe. ;-)
Personally, I would not mind having 7 trillion gazillion dollars. I am glad they demanded that. It shows what all of this is really about.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 9:23 am #
Put yourself in the place of the moonbats for a minute.
In 2006 you are riding the heady truthiness of a transcendant victory of Teh Narrative™ in the Congressional elections. All of your energy is focused on the perception of a sweeping public repudiation of neothugs, Iraq, GWOT, and the Patriot Act. There you sit, trembling in anticipation of the mighty flood of legislation designed to roll back all of those things that have made America less safe, shredded our Constitution and victimized the civil liberties of its citizens. Now, with the rise of popular outrage all will be undone and sweetness and light will once again spread its carbon neutral glow over all of the peoples.
So you wait … and wait … and wait some more … and …
Nothing.
What the hell has happened? You now have two of the more moonbatty people as leadership in Congress with a rousing mandate! Yet … funding the war continues, The Patriot Act is going strong and FISA is about to be renewed with retroactive immunity for the telecoms. Heads explode, wailing and tearing of clocks becomes epidemic and cries of “Cowards!” boom across the land.
You have been duped. The stirring irony is that you’ve not been duped by those elected but by your own twisted, unrealistic and ignorant world view. Lacking any capacity to engage in critical thinking beyond your own three by five card talking points, you’ve failed to realise several important realities about the majority of American people.
First, they are pissed at everybody in government, not just BushFascist and the neocons. There is a reason why congressional approval ratings are abysmally lower than even Chimpy McHitlerburton’s.
Second, the majority of Americans don’t want to lose in Iraq or in the overall GWOT. While they may be conflicted about whether or not invading Iraq was prudent they recognise the incontrovertable fact the we are there now and so is al qaeda and other jihadist thugs! Are you listening Mr. Barack “we’ll leave and then come back if they come back” Obama? Tossing away Iraq and the fight there is not what a majority of Americans want. They want it to be successful.
Third, The vast majority of Americans realise that the sorts of issues that are raised by FISA rules don’t effect them in the least! They’d rather know that we are doing everything prudent to update and modernise our intelligence gathering capabilities to insure that which most of us treasure most: Safety and security!
Fourth: Most of your perceived “friends” in Congrtess are smarter and more knowledgable than you and understand, to varying degrees, one through three. They’ll play little games, spout talking points and posture but, in the end, they aren’t going to hitch their wagons to your isolationist European begging diplomacy first concept of protecting America from an asymetrical enemy dedicated to doing as much damage as possible if given the means and the opportunity to accomplish large scale attacks against our citizens.
It’s just another brick in the wall of political irrelevance for you and yours.
As BMoe pointed out above when sachal invoked Stalin: He didn’t have to deal with thousands of tort lawyers frantically opening Cayman Island accounts in anticipation of massive judgments based upon the faulty and unprovable premise of mashed civil rights and teh shredded Constitution.
Hold your nose and drink deep.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 3/1 @ 9:26 am #
“coercion in the form of immunity”?
Dude. You need to make English one of your languages, because one of those words doesn’t mean what you think it means.
Pingback by Right Voices » Blog Archive » Are The Democrats Close To Seeing The Light On FISA? on 3/1 @ 9:35 am #
[...] Karl has this take on it: If this scenario plays out  as it ultimately will in some form  left-liberals will be distraught. You might think that people who claim to value fairness would realize that the State Secrets Act renders the telcos unable to properly defend against the FISA-related lawsuits. Moreover, the fact that lawyers in just one of the dozens of class-action suits already filed against the telcos seeks $7.243 trillion in non-punitive damages– an amount roughly half of the GDP of the US  tends to make them seem a bit less than altruistic. [...]
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 10:09 am #
Only a word-salad could ‘think’ that opposing reality is a plan, sashal.
Pingback by Hot Air » Blog Archive » Heartbreak Alert on the Left: FISA deal rumor on 3/1 @ 10:14 am #
[...] readers to a blogger who is none too happy with this development. Moe Lane at Redstate and Karl at Protein Wisdom are delighted, however. Moe calls it the “cynical betrayal of the Democratic nutroots,” [...]
Pingback by FISA Deal In The Works? — Pirate’s Cove on 3/1 @ 10:41 am #
[...] Protein Wisdom, through an upset Lefty blog To break an impasse over legislation overhauling the Foreign [...]
Comment by RTO Trainer on 3/1 @ 11:12 am #
You’ve got probelms recognizing cause and effect, don’t you? The rooster crowing causes the sun to rise?
The telcos DIDN’T need to be “coerced” (I also dispute your understanding of the definition of this word given teh context in whch you use it) with immunity guarnattes to cooperate with lawful requests (I’m happy to see you stipulate on this point). We know this be case they DID cooperate with the lawful requests. If they had not, they would not now need immunity from lawsuits, which though baseless and frivolous, have some chance of prevailing just because our civil justice system still resembles a state-run lottery system.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 11:18 am #
Methinks sachal has a little problem with understanding the realities of tort law in this country along with a decided lack of perspective between the Soviet era KGB and the NSA.
Comment by Ric Locke on 3/1 @ 11:20 am #
BJ, you left something out, and it needs to be repeated.
Zeroth: You did not get the mandate you claim. Democrats who unseated Republicans in 2006 did so from at least somewhat conservative districts, as evidenced by the fact that there was a Republican there to unseat. When Pelosi, Reid, et. al. start up one of their crusades, those Senators and Representatives start hearing from their constituents that that’s not what they voted for, and respond (as they should) to the wishes of those constituents.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 11:24 am #
Ric, exactly so, as evidenced by the exit polls from the 2006 election that indicated over 60% of voters were “very” or “somewhat” concerned that Democrats would not be as vigorous in prosecuting the GWOT.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 11:40 am #
“I don’t know why the House leadership, who has been steadfast against the bad Senate bill, would suddenly let the Senate bill the one that is voted on to move forward. It makes no sense.”
Unless it’s Rope-A-Dope, and our beloved presidunce is increasingly shrill and desperate on TelComPerfidy. House Dems are relishing his
antipathy for the public knowledge of just what has been going on.
Why don’t we get to the bottom of this ‘mystery’?
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 11:42 am #
An even better mystery: Why is your comment so obtuse?
Never mind.
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 11:45 am #
“…coercion in the form of immunity…”
When you toss your own word-salad, sashal, why does it always manage to end up upside down? I will compliment you no more.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 11:48 am #
Wouldn’t ya think that an immunity deal for the TelComs (explicitly excluding ‘gubmint’ officials) would tender the protection of those who
‘allegedly’ did the dirty deed, while still holding the truly culpable responsible for their misdeeds, and satisfy the critics on both sides?
………Naw.
Comment by Rusty on 3/1 @ 11:50 am #
Geeze Cleo. You make dave look smart. It’s the house dems who took a walk on this. Not enough pork.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 11:50 am #
Seriously, cleo: what the hell are you trying to convey above?
Where does that quote come from? What makes it a bad bill? What sort of mileage is the left going to get from having Bush state that the lack of authority hurts security?
What is the freakin’ mystery anyway? Besides, of course, your lack of a coherent argument.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 11:50 am #
Betcha those patriotic TelComs would jump at it……betcha.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 11:51 am #
Who are the “truly culpable?” Step up, cleo, and dazzle us with your analysis!
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 11:52 am #
Would they need witness protection? Naw……………..
Comment by Karl on 3/1 @ 11:53 am #
cleo,
In either circumstance “those responsible” would not end up footing the bill. It ultimately be paid by: (a) the telco customers themselves in the form of higher rates; or (b) taxpayers.
I am shocked that a lefty troll does not understand how that works.Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 11:54 am #
“Step up, cleo, and dazzle us with your analysis!”
I dunno. You don’t know. We should find out, don’cha know?
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 11:56 am #
It appears that cleo has a dart board of catchy FISA phrases. Perhaps their is an argument there but her lack of aim obscures The Narrative™ in its entirety.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 3/1 @ 11:56 am #
Culpable of what? Which deeds were amiss and why?
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 11:57 am #
“It ultimately be paid by: (a) the telco customers themselves in the form of higher rates; or (b) taxpayers.”
Yeah, but just think how much needed cash derived from those lawsuits
would pump up our economy. It would help at least as much as the
$600-800 early refunds.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 11:59 am #
“Which deeds were amiss and why?”
That’s what I’m talkin’ ’bout.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 12:00 pm #
Yeesh, it’s foggier than normal in cleoville.
Comment by maggie katzen on 3/1 @ 12:00 pm #
oh, I see, since we all didn’t get a personal briefing on this, it must be suspect. carry on.
Comment by Karl on 3/1 @ 12:01 pm #
cleo,
Thanks for proving my last point.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 12:02 pm #
“oh, I see, since we all didn’t get a personal briefing on this, it must be suspect. carry on.”
Yeah.. Go back to sleep.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 12:04 pm #
“Thanks for proving my last point.”
I haven’t read Leviathan for a while, but I do understand where you’re coming from.
Comment by semanticleo's inner muse on 3/1 @ 12:07 pm #
THAT’S RIGHT, THUGS! GO BACK TO SLEEP WHILE THOSE OF US STALWART DEFENDERS OF TEH SHREDDED REMAINS OF THE CONSTITUTION BELLOW OUR DEFIANCE OF THE HITLER MCCHIMPYFASCIST REGIME OF ULTIMATE TOTALITARIAN GULAGNESS! WHEN YOU ALL HAVE BEEN JAILED FOR THE WIRETAPPED ACQUIRED DETAILS OF YOUR SEX LIVES AND BEER BONG USE REMEMBER YOUR REM SLEEPINESS WHILE AMERIKKKA BURNED!!!
clenched fist
Comment by Drumwaster on 3/1 @ 12:08 pm #
Guilty until proven innocent, eh?
The telcos need to be immunized, because people don’t understand that when they hire a third-party to transmit a message, they voluntarily waive privacy as to the data contained in that message.
In short, there is no “Internet Service Provider/Web Surfer” confidentiality, and for those persons who are not American citizens (and therefore, HAVE no demands for protection under the Constitution; which is, after all, a contract between We The People and the Federal Government), they have no legitimate standing to claim that their “civil rights” were somehow violated by the Government wanting to know.
And in this litigious society, it costs more to defend against such frivolous claims than it does to initiate one (and if the plaintiff, such as the ACLU, decides to “forum-shop” for a sympathetic judge, that guarantees it will survive summary dismissal), and those costs WILL be passed onto the unlucky citizens who didn’t mind the government listening in on foreigners who are trying to kill as many infidels as they can cause to be gathered in one place.
Thus, the need to protect the American citizen from the lawyers who don’t care who is hazarded, so long as they make partner.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 3/1 @ 12:09 pm #
Then you litterly don’t know what you’re talking about.
You’re advocating withholding civil immunity just in case there were misdeeds. Since what were’re discussing is civil liability, not criminal, anc since Title 2 of the bill expressly excludes illegal acts from immunity (because I’m certain that you’ve, you know, actually read the legislation AND understood it) these misdeeds must be deliberate tortious actions on the part of the telcos against individuals or groups, right?
And yet the immunity provision, that you read and unserstood, is very circumscribed, it only pertains to lawsuits brought on the grounds that the telco provided information to the government and seeks money or compensation from the telco. And that’s it. Any other tort may be persued. Compensation on any other ground may still be sought. There is no criminal relief in the bill.
So try again. What’s the objection?
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 12:10 pm #
cleo. other than us, do you have any friends?
Comment by Karl on 3/1 @ 12:11 pm #
A literary reference from cleo. Wow. Not really an economics text, of course.
Comment by Ric Locke on 3/1 @ 12:16 pm #
What Greendwald(s) attempt to establish, and semanticleo follows along like the good shill she is, is a circularity.
The program is valuable because the details are secret. If the details are made public the program is useless.
The Left makes accusations of wrongdoing which can only be defended against by making the details of the program public, thus destroying the program.
The Administration refuses to destroy the program by making the details public. Semanticleo & co. then shriek that the refusal is proof positive that their charges are in fact true.
We then enter a closed cycle, in which the Left reasserts the charges, the Administration refuses to destroy the program by making its defense public, and the Left goes “Aha! Another admission of guilt.” Rinse & repeat.
Note that this cycle is absolutely independent of whether any wrongdoing occurred or not. I, personally, have been convinced for a long time that other than a few flaming bigots like Semanticleo, no one on the Left believes that any wrongdoing occurred, not because they think Bush is honest, but because they don’t think about the substantive issues at all — it’s just a useful stick to beat the Administration with. And Bush keeps smiling, and it infuriates the Hell out of them (I actually think that’s part of the point).
The telecom immunity issue is a sideshow. It’s fairly transparent that if the Administration convinced the telecoms to violate the law by lying to them, the companies are victims — they would have cause of action against the Government for entrapment. But, again, they can call on their familiar demons. It’s not OK to rob people. However, it’s perfectly all right to be cruel to eeeevile people, and if you define “having money” as eeeeevile, you can steal all you want and be smugly virtuous. The specifics tie in nicely with the circularity, but it really has nothing to do with the case; it’s just greedy elitists justifying their depredations, as they have since time immemorial.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by semanticleo's inner muse on 3/1 @ 12:19 pm #
Wake up, ‘thuglicans, from your dreamy sleep state! Those tort lawyers and their overseas accounts are the first responders and front line defenders for those criminal acts that are not spelled out as criminal acts but are hidden within the shards of shredded remains of our living but barely breathing Constitution. Their ginormous settlements protect even you napping fascists from that which should be criminal if someone would lean close enough to the flayed living document and heard, REALLY HEARD, the anguished whispers of it’s rattled breathing murmers.
BEFORE IT DIES, NAPPERS, BEFORE IT EXPIRES IN A POOL OF ITS LIBERTIES!!!
Comment by Drumwaster on 3/1 @ 12:21 pm #
And where would that lawsuit money come from, pray tell? Think hard.
Comment by maggie katzen on 3/1 @ 12:23 pm #
oh yeah, well, where did that tax money come from, huh?
Comment by Rusty on 3/1 @ 12:24 pm #
Cleo. If you got anymore lightweight you’d float away. Speaking of which; Why don’tchya.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 12:26 pm #
“Thus, the need to protect the American citizen from the lawyers who don’t care who is hazarded, so long as they make partner.”
You must be a trial lawyer who’s already made his nut. They are the most vociferous critics of trial lawyers.
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 12:29 pm #
How is it that leftist “thought” not only never passes the sniff test, but now also presents us with a possible Presidential candidate whose initials are B.O., at best, complete with an m.o.?
Can this really be a mere accident?
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 12:29 pm #
Do you know the difference between a trial lawyer and a tort lawyer?
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 12:30 pm #
“We then enter a closed cycle, in which the Left reasserts the charges, the Administration refuses to destroy the program by making its defense public, and the Left goes “Aha! Another admission of guilt.†Rinse & repeat.”
I think the Presidunce was most upset at the disclosure there was a program at all. It was like the terrorists have never heard of
wiretapping, as soon as they heard such things happened, it would have a chilling effect on their transmissions.
Well, now that it’s out, just give us the details. We the People, decide.
Comment by maggie katzen on 3/1 @ 12:32 pm #
to every thing turn, turn, turn…
Comment by Ric Locke on 3/1 @ 12:34 pm #
Y’know, I really appreciate it when I describe some method of the Left, and one of them jumps in immediately to produce an example. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and credible, don’t'cha know.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by Dan Collins on 3/1 @ 12:40 pm #
Ric,
Any chance you could work up that thing about FISA and tech? I know it’s a lot to ask for . . .
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 12:40 pm #
cleo: Here is a test for you.
Express in clear and concise language exactly what it is you fear from the telecom immunity and excatly how you think it affects you. What is it you think the fascists might be doing that infringes on your civil rights? Give voice to your inner child and clearly write what it is you think is happening.
Per Ric’s deconstruction it’s an automatic fail if you use the word “secret” or the phrase “because it’s secret.”
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 12:40 pm #
“Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and credible,”
Yeah. Mold is also brimming with credibility, along with fuzzy warmth.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 3/1 @ 12:41 pm #
Or, more succinctly: “We screw the other guy, and pass the savings on to you!”
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 12:44 pm #
“excatly”
Is that a play on words? Just askin’.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 12:45 pm #
No. And your response? Exactly? Or are you merely content to fling foam and run like a grrrl?
Comment by McGehee on 3/1 @ 12:46 pm #
Shorter Cleo: “We have no evidence there’s been a crime, WHICH PROVES THEY’RE COVERING IT UP!!!”
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 12:49 pm #
When it comes to FISA, cleo reminds me of the blue haired ladies at a country church whispering among themselves about the cute young mother in the short skirt and what a hussy she is.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 12:49 pm #
“Or are you merely content to fling foam and run like a grrrl?”
Run like a girl? Are misogynistic derogations your forte’?
I thought I was talking to Classic Liberals.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 12:50 pm #
*sigh* More foam from the blue haired lady.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 3/1 @ 12:52 pm #
You’re not talking to anyone, cleo; you’re talking at.
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 12:53 pm #
cleo, as one of your friends, I advise you to watch more Football and wonder why it is that the opposing coaches don’t turn over their game plans to each other, since each already knows the other one is going to have one, don’t cha know.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 12:58 pm #
The question for semiconscious still stands:
cleo’s response?
*crickets*
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 1:00 pm #
Run like a girl? Are misogynistic derogations your forte’?
Ok, how about running like B.Hussein O., that is, like a dhimmi? Compare with L.D., Walter Payton, etc..
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 1:00 pm #
, “cleo; you’re talking at.”
A salient thought. I agree. Why do ya suppose that’s true?
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 1:01 pm #
*more crickets*
Ooooooo … fireflies …
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 1:02 pm #
LT
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 1:03 pm #
*crickets*
We don’t even hear ‘crickets’ about the program. Allow me to say it again for your benefit:
“I dunno. You don’t know. We should find out, don’cha know?”
WE, THE PEOPLE……………………….
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 1:05 pm #
Awash in a sea of foam. You flunk.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 3/1 @ 1:10 pm #
I’m curious why you bother, but I don’t expect we’ll get a straight answer to that question, to your question, or to any of the questions posed by others to you, ever.
Which in turn makes me question why I bother, and moves me to not do so any longer.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 1:10 pm #
“cleo, as one of your friends, I advise you to watch more Football”
As your doctor, I advise you to begin drinking heavily.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 1:12 pm #
They’re not gonna have a whole lot left come November. Just outrage for how the government is totally refusing to pay your mortgage. WE WILL GIVE YOU FREE SHIT will be their distilled hopeychangey uniteyness. And also the fearmongering about Canada.
Compelling.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 1:13 pm #
When in doubt, hf, blame Canada. And Halliburton … but not Blackwater.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 1:16 pm #
“but I don’t expect we’ll get a straight answer to that question, to your question, or to any of the questions posed by others to you, ever.”
Another salient thought.
No, I don’t answer questions which are disingenuous, or designed to stake me to an anthill. Proffer some
good faith which furthers the discussion and see what happens.
I might not simply toss firebombs every time.
As to my reasons for bothering, I’ve stated them before and see no need to fend off the spittle from your local trollops, yet again.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 1:25 pm #
Canada pushed me down and stole my bike and Bush just let em do it. Yeah well they’ll be sorry when Baracky’s in charge.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 3/1 @ 1:31 pm #
What would you recognize as good faith?
What constitutes, to you, being staked on an anthiill? Asking you to read the legislation?
Comment by Ric Locke on 3/1 @ 1:34 pm #
Y’see, RTO, that’s the point.
In Semanticleo’s Universe, “Bush is Guilty” is a physical law, falling just after “things fall down” and a little before “the sun rises in the East”. That being the case, anything that doesn’t result in George W. Bush being impeached, convicted, half-hung, drawn, and quartered constitutes “bad faith”. Requiring her to prove it is equivalent to asking you to prove that the Sun will rise tomorrow. The technical term is “bigot”.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 1:36 pm #
Fine. Now please explain how this:
in any way rises to the level of “disingenuous” or “designed to stake me to an anthill.”
both are reasonable questions as to your concerns regarding telecom immunity. you have only offered vague snarks to “we the people” and secrecy.
And, BTW, WE THE PEOPLE don’t get to decide about national security issues. That’s why you have an elected executive and appointed officials along with the oversight of elected legislators. The streets are not exactly full of people screaming about the civil rights crushed by actual wiretapping.
Make an argument or shut the hell up. Unless, of course, that anthill you are so concerned about is the heaping pile of partisan ignorance.
Comment by maggie katzen on 3/1 @ 1:41 pm #
WE, THE PEOPLE……………………… need to either get hired by the NSA or elected to an office that allows us clearance to be briefed on these kind of things. or shut up. seriously why do you ignore the majority of people already in those positions that are okay with this program? as has been pointed out, they aren’t all Rethugs.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 3/1 @ 1:42 pm #
We the People chose a republican form of government, not a direct democracy.
So try again.
Comment by bjtexs on 3/1 @ 1:47 pm #
Now, now, people. If one innocent Pakistani in a cafe in Amsterdam is illegally wiretapped, the terrorists will have won.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 1:52 pm #
More what I think this kind of suggests is also a subtle retreat from the Bush-McCain linkage on national security. What I mean mostly is I think it signals that they’re going to focus their hopeychangey laser beam squarely on the economy, which is presently organized around basic tenets of capitalism.
I wish there was an economic Karl.
Comment by Patrick Chester on 3/1 @ 1:59 pm #
maggie, Ric, RTO, all of you are being unfair! Dragging facts into a debate with Cleo! Shame on you. Shame, shame, SHAME!
;-)
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 2:02 pm #
Maguire could do it. He’s so awesome when he does the go-to guy thing for something. He’s been all over the map lately though.
Comment by The Lost Dog on 3/1 @ 2:58 pm #
“Comment by Semanticleo on 3/1 @ 11:48 am #
Wouldn’t ya think that an immunity deal for the TelComs (explicitly excluding ‘gubmint’ officials) would tender the protection of those who
‘allegedly’ did the dirty deed, while still holding the truly culpable responsible for their misdeeds, and satisfy the critics on both sides?
………Naw.”
I am still truly amazed at how the leftists portray (and some of the stupider ones actually believe) a data mining program - with absolutely no information attached to it beyond phone #s - as though our government actually randomly listening to people’s actual phone calls.
Does anyone have an estimate of how many people we would need to do that? Somewhere in the vicinity of two thirds of our population? I know my A-X-E’s phone calls would need at least the attention of three people per day.
No wonder leftists are portrayed as unbelieveably fucking stupid. I guess it’s because they ARE.
We are faced with one of the most dangerous threats this country has ever seen, and my lefty pals think it’s just one big Ha! Ha! Bush is the most evil man in history (history being another strong point of those on the left), and they want Obama to go kiss AbjDodo’s, and Chavez’s stupid fucking asses.
Sorry. But anyone with a brain knows exactly who the stupid asses are in this picture.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 3/1 @ 3:16 pm #
Again, cleo’s the clown that declared he had no beef with Clinton rifling FBI files and otherwise abusing government power against his political enemies, because cleo trusted him. There’s no point arguing with him — if there’s any “position” taken, it’s purely partisan.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 3:27 pm #
Oh. That was a Cap’n-lanche. Wowsers. Something is changing out there? It just makes me reflect is all about how myopic those orange bannery people were. For real. I think, just as a tentative theory, that a McCandidate of notable geriatricity against a precocious tyke maybe could put a premium on the more venturesome and young and establishmentarily unensconced voices that have been maybe overlooked more than they should have been. I think I’ll see Ace’s award in that light now.
Comment by LiveFromFortLivingRoom on 3/1 @ 5:05 pm #
I have the feeling that cleo thinks that by sueing the telecom companies the trial lawyers will find there way up the criminal pipeline to Karl Rove, Cheney, or Bush, ala the Valery Plame case.
Comment by Education Guy on 3/1 @ 5:07 pm #
The great thing about it all is that it drives dishonest and paranoid people like cleo bonkers to know that her “side” loses on every single issue related to the GWOT. Every one.
So all she can hope for is to come in to places like this and vent. What a small life.
Pingback by Stop The ACLU » Blog Archive » Rumor: FISA Deal Reached in the House on 3/1 @ 6:25 pm #
[...] Karl is just as amused as I am. [...]
Comment by Rusty on 3/1 @ 8:56 pm #
Cleo. Nobody wants to listen in on your phone calls. Nobody.Ever.Not the FBI, not the NSA, not the CIA. You could discuss building a bomb with someone in Damascus and no one would give a shit. Why? Because like anyone who is sane they are deathly afraid of catching your stupid. Now go float off somewhere. There’s a good lad.
Comment by Drumwaster on 3/1 @ 9:30 pm #
Which law? The existing law, under which the ACLU is trying to prevent our government from protecting us by extending the mythical “right to privacy” to those who are trying to kill innocent civilians? Or the proposed law wherein the telcos would be allowed to cooperate with lawfully requested information without having to be sued by those who claim that Rove is personally listening into his whispered cell phone calls about black helicopters?
Because (as I said) there is no such thing as “Internet Service Provider/Web Surfer†confidentiality. And no amount of whining about “Fourth Amendment” is going to change that fact.
True, an American citizen has the right to expect to “be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects” does not include any transmission that travels along the wires and through the equipment owned by someone else. (”Expectation of privacy”? You are ignoring the fact that the requests to the telcos are made through the use of legally obtained warrants whenever an American citizen becomes involved. And foreign nationals HAVE no expectation of privacy…)
Comment by Drumwaster on 3/1 @ 9:33 pm #
“…papers and effects”, but that does not include…
PIMF
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 9:38 pm #
“As your doctor, I advise you to begin drinking heavily.”
cleo. At least you have finally hit upon the Communist key to preventive medicine. But does even ‘progressive’ Cuba cover copper kettles?
Comment by nope on 3/1 @ 9:39 pm #
I work in this area of telecom. You liberals have NO FRICKIN IDEA of the kind of stuff that goes on in Europe in terms of telephone surveillance as a matter of course, never mind with a warrent. If you have talked on the phone to many western European countries, you have been recorded, and not by the US, or not only by the US if you are calling people with known terrorist ties internationally.
Here is an example of a legal reason for intecepting telephone communication in the UK
“for the purpose of safeguarding the economic well-being of the United Kingdom;”
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_2#pt1-ch1-pb1-l1g4
If you think that France, Germany, Spain, Italy, or say Russia, Turkey, etc are any better. I ask you, what are you smoking and where can I get some?
Comment by emmanuel on 3/1 @ 10:03 pm #
“Which law?”
Start with the wiretap act. 18 usc 2511 has the heading: “Interception and disclosure of wire, oral, or electronic communications prohibited”
“True, an American citizen has the right to expect to “be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects†does not include any transmission that travels along the wires and through the equipment owned by someone else.”
It does. Read Katz vs. US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katz_v._United_States
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 10:18 pm #
Yeah, it just might-could-be that the unensconsed voices are talking to everyone.
Comment by nope on 3/1 @ 10:21 pm #
Puhleeze go into November with the position that wiretapping of international communications with known terrorists and their associates is a violation of their privacy and should be prohibited. Puhleeze! Even Nancy isn’t that dumb.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 10:24 pm #
My point is just I think the establishment blogosphere may be not as confident in its exclusivey stentorious infallibility is all. They see Obama and his urchins of changey and they reach out to places for ideas and input - youthier places - that before they wouldn’t deign to.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 10:25 pm #
I’m just talking about the right. I guess I wasn’t clear about that.
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 10:39 pm #
Well, the left sure wouldn’t want to do it.
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 11:05 pm #
hf,I took it - what I quoted from you - as the reverse of what you apparently intended: I took it that McCain would value the unensconsed, not head-up-ass, voices, those that the left would actually not like to hear, but which would be talking to them anyway, and even from within themselves, regardless of age, which is what I tried to say as a riff off of what you had indicated, or as I took it.
Regardless, I think it turns out that McCain is the nearly perfect anti-Obama. But, “Who will get there first is uncertain.”
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 11:10 pm #
I wasn’t real clear. I agree on that last, about the near-perfect anti-Obama, but I really believe pretty firmly the adults will hold sway. The media can’t paint a picture of things being so dire and then propose a frivolous solution, is the short take, and Obama shows every sign of peaking too soon.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 11:17 pm #
Mostly it was just that I can’t ever remember an actual Cap’n-link. That’s really interesting I think. But also I think there is a huge demand for Jeff’s thinking right now, and there’s a ferment in the paucity of strong, incisive thinking in the right blogosphere that could be really a big deal for him. What I mean is there’s a real absence of people who can write in declarative sentences that form paragraphs that actually say something.
Comment by LiveFromFortLivingRoom on 3/1 @ 11:19 pm #
That’s funny happyfeet, you said the big O would peak too soon.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 11:23 pm #
You know what’s illustrative? Here. It’s a lot different of course, but that’s the same nine months or so what Baracky has before November. A lot can happen, and really I don’t think he’ll ever be any more big O than he is about now.
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 11:24 pm #
Even Viagra has its limits.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 11:25 pm #
Oh yeah. Exactly. And you exceed them, you can get permanent damage.
Comment by LiveFromFortLivingRoom on 3/1 @ 11:27 pm #
I was just laughing you said frivilous solution, short take, and peaking too soon in the same sentence as the big O. So you want to classify him as a premature ejaculation it sounds like.
Comment by happyfeet on 3/1 @ 11:31 pm #
Yes, the Mother of all Anticlimax, that’s what we’re gonna see I think.
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 11:33 pm #
A short hitter?
Comment by J. Peden on 3/1 @ 11:36 pm #
hitler
Comment by Rusty on 3/2 @ 7:42 am #
#99
Does that include anything that goes offshore in the eather, so to speak. because it has been my understanding that if it is just out in the air , it is fair game, once it leaves the CONUS.Providing it can be deciphered.
Comment by emmanuel on 3/2 @ 12:16 pm #
“Does that include anything that goes offshore in the eather, so to speak.”
Searches have to be reasonable. And its considered reasonable to have certain border searches without warrants or suspicion. I wouldn’t be surprised if people saw new limits to this: does a border search allow the government to without suspicion copy and analyze every piece of electronic media that a person is carrying? Is that “reasonable”?
Comment by Rusty on 3/2 @ 1:28 pm #
Not carrying. Sent. Once an electronic wave enters the air anyone can pluck it out with the right equipment. Once that electronic wave leaves the CONUS there is no reasonable expectation that it remain private, unless it is coded. I would think that it would be reasonable to monitor the communications of people who would wish to do us harm.Since we are at war with them.
Hardwire overseas communications have been routinely monitored by the federal government since the Rooseveldt administration. Franklin, not Teddy.
Comment by Pablo on 3/2 @ 1:34 pm #
I think we’re about to find out. I think the copying is a problem, but not the analyzing. We’re talking about what you’re bringing into the country, and it’s been long established that everyone is subject to search as a condition of entry. It being data that is being “searched” does raise some interesting nuances, though.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/2 @ 3:31 pm #
This just in from Kevin Drum
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_03/013236.php
It seems the TelCos NEVER cooperate with the government unless they
have INDEMNIFICATION.
The usual hogwash about protecting them seems to have a familiar smell.
Comment by B Moe on 3/2 @ 3:38 pm #
Oh, well hell, if it is just going to be National Security and American Taxpayers that are getting fucked, well that is completely different. Can I question Cleo’s patriotism, yet?
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/2 @ 3:41 pm #
“Can I question Cleo’s patriotism, yet?”
No, but you can examine your personal definition of same.
Comment by Rusty on 3/2 @ 6:01 pm #
Seems the DEMOCRATIC(caps for cleo) is going to pass this bill a piece at a time. cleo really should be on Pelosi’s ass rather than Bush.
Comment by B Moe on 3/2 @ 6:12 pm #
cleo really should be on Pelosi’s ass rather than Bush.
If he cared about anything but scoring cheap political points, yeah. But he is willing to risk his compatriots safety, make them pay for it, then crow about being a fucking hero. All for personal gain.
Comment by I'm Just Saying on 3/3 @ 11:03 am #
“The Bush administration and its supporters in Congress complain that these lawsuits are simply about money and enriching trial lawyers — suggesting that the litigation should be stopped because of the potential damages that might be awarded in such lawsuits. This criticism ignores the fact that, according to the rules in the federal court, the only way that we could ensure that a federal judge could continue to explore previous violations if the companies simply changed their participation or the government changed or ended the program was to ask for minimal damages. We are not interested in recovering money for ourselves, nor is our counsel, the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois. We, however, are committed to assuring that these giant companies are punished for violating the law and thus dissuaded from violating the law in the future.
More important, amnesty not only lets the companies off the hook without answering any questions, it assures that the American people will never learn about the breadth and extent of the lawless program. Some seem to suggest that we should not have our day in court because a select few members of Congress have been able to review documents about the spy program operated by the White House. The judgment of a few Washington insiders is not a substitute for the careful scrutiny of a federal court.”
Studs Terkel says it better than Karl in the Chicago Trib.
Not that it matter, the small government conservatives and “classic liberals” here at PW, always concerned with the Nanny State, aren’t concerned with the Daddy state. A loss of privacy means little to them. A telescreen is EVERY house! For freedom’s sake.
Of course, if you’re writing a book on 9/11, you apparently could be a terrorist, so we’ll tap you too: http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=5&docID=hsnews-000002661145
Pingback by FISA Update/Dems 2008: The "Obama's counterterror advisor" post [Karl] on 3/8 @ 3:47 pm #
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