While the US press is eager to cover every nuance of the Clinton machine vs Obamessiah tent revival, President Bush’s tour of Africa, and the warm welcome he has received, is either ignored or grudingly cited wreathed in criticism. The press’ “Bush can do no good” theme has gotten so blatant that even Bob Geldof has felt the need to speak out
Mr. Geldof praised Mr. Bush for his work in delivering billions to fight disease and poverty in Africa, and blasted the U.S. press for ignoring the achievement.Mr. Bush, said Mr. Geldof, “has done more than any other president so far.”
“This is the triumph of American policy really,” he said. “It was probably unexpected of the man. It was expected of the nation, but not of the man, but both rose to the occasion.”
“What’s in it for [Mr. Bush]? Absolutely nothing,” Mr. Geldof said.
Mr. Geldof said that the president has failed “to articulate this to Americans” but said he is also “pissed off” at the press for their failure to report on this good news story.
“You guys didn’t pay attention,” Geldof said to a group of reporters from all the major newspapers.
It takes the Africa press to step in where western press has failed in its own ethical duty:
Unlike Mr. Bush’s visit, the 1998 visit by his predecessor President Clinton was hailed like the coming of a messiah. The sad truth is that Mr. Clinton did not do as much for Africa as Mr. Bush has. Perhaps, we have taken too much to heart the antipathy that the rest of the world has towards Mr. Bush. [...]
Mr. Bush has been a very good President for blacks and Africa. Indeed, he has been one of the friendliest Presidents to our continent and certainly done more for Africa than his venerated predecessor, President Clinton. It was under Mr. Clinton’s watch that the US beat an undignified retreat from Somalia and left it in a quagmire from which it is yet to recover. Also, it was under Mr. Clinton’s watch in 1994 that 800 thousand Rwandans perished while the world looked on mainly because the UN, led by the US refused to act.
During the Bush Presidency, more blacks have been put into responsible positions than occurred under perhaps any previous administration.
Here in Africa, the Bush administration has led initiatives that should warm the heart of every black person or progressive.
The President, indeed his own administration, has never excelled on the PR level of the Clinton administration or the Obama campaign, even taking into account the general hostility towards conservatives and Republicans a Democrat-dominated press eagerly exhibits. Sob-sister stories of Teh Horror of Poverty!!!1!! and Homelessness!!!1!!1! only seem to make the front page when Republican administrations are in the White House. So it shouldn’t really surprise that reports on an administration that has done what no other administration has done in Africa in fighting HIV/Aids and malaria and, succeeded, should be shoved to the side when the President has an “R” after his name. It doesn’t fit the narrative.
And such reporting might even make Michelle Obama’s “I didn’t feel proud of my country” statement even more hollow.
Comment by JD on 2/20 @ 9:38 am #
Darleen – Trying to point things out like this is like going snipe hunting. Truth and inconvenient little things like facts mean nothing to the progs and the (redundancy alert) media.
Comment by spongeworthy on 2/20 @ 9:40 am #
Sorry, guys, but Kanye said Bush don’t care ’bout no black people and that settles it for me.
Comment by alppuccino on 2/20 @ 9:45 am #
I love this stuff Darlene. Thank you! I will be in the last 300 who support George W Bush. He is not looking for credit for anything, and I think he’ll go back to the ranch when he’s done and be very happy. Contrast that with Clinton and Carter. What a couple of miserable fools. But you’d never hear George W say that either.
None of this is funny, but it sounds crazy enough, doesn’t it?
Comment by happyfeet on 2/20 @ 9:50 am #
China, I think.
Comment by Dan Collins on 2/20 @ 9:55 am #
George W “Cincinnatus” Bush!
Comment by alppuccino on 2/20 @ 9:57 am #
U damn Righeeeet!!
Comment by Kirk on 2/20 @ 10:03 am #
The hate the left has for Bush is itself an irony as he has done more for many left leaning causes than any Democrat ever. This is why many conservatives (myself included) deride Bush. He is a “government has a solution” sort of guy when it comes to many things.
Getting hit by traffic traveling in both directions has a lot to do with his 30% poll numbers.
Comment by daleyrocks on 2/20 @ 10:03 am #
Just think about how pissed off people are going to be when they find out that it was really Spike Lee who blew up the levees in New Orleans and Randall Robinson started eating his own peeps because all the KFC’s were closed.
Comment by happyfeet on 2/20 @ 10:05 am #
Well a lot Kirk was that Bush looked at what we were doing in Africa and said hey we’re doing that wrong. They did it right instead. That’s just smart, not conservative or liberal.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 2/20 @ 10:06 am #
Ayep.
It’s maddening that the Bush administration has been so bad at communication, but on the other hand, they may have assumed the press was acting as honest professionals, rather than corrupt partisans.
Or maybe they really don’t care about the message, but rather about the results.
Come to think of it, that’s probably more likely. And that probably explains why Bush is so disliked while Obama is so liked — Obama’s all message, no results, and better fits the spirit of the age.
Comment by Dan Collins on 2/20 @ 10:07 am #
The Nichtgeist.
Comment by Lost My Cookies on 2/20 @ 10:21 am #
“perhaps” any other administration?
Pingback by Balafon » Why I Don’t Hate George Bush on 2/20 @ 10:37 am #
[...] relief and debt forgiveness. Naturally, he’s found a warm reception, which has been totally ignored by the Western media: Mr. Geldof praised Mr. Bush for his work in delivering billions to fight disease and poverty in [...]
Comment by SeanH on 2/20 @ 10:42 am #
Heh. Biggest understatement ever.
I feel odd standing up for the press, but if you’re going to take that tack you better be damn consistent with the results and in general Bush has been a bit of a mixed bag. I totally agree with Darleen and Geldof that he deserves a ton of credit for his African policies, though. At the same time, it’s a little understandable that no message, mixed results won’t exactly gain you much cheerleading in the press.
Comment by happyfeet on 2/20 @ 10:45 am #
Seriously. Bush touting Africa policy overmuch leads directly to a pissing match with China. For real. He’s too smart for that.
Comment by Mark on 2/20 @ 11:05 am #
Mo’ betta welfare!
Comment by Andrew on 2/20 @ 11:07 am #
He’s been noted for it, albeit grudgingly, in Vanity Fair, and suddenly everyone will remember him for it as soon as the election is over and he’s safely out of office. Provided, of course, that a Dem wins. Otherwise it will only get mentioned if McCain deviates from it in some way, in a “At least Bush blah blah blah” fashion.
Comment by Dan Collins on 2/20 @ 11:13 am #
Did he reforest Haiti? Huh? Well, did he?
Comment by Jeff G. on 2/20 @ 11:14 am #
This country is broken. The legacy press still controls the message, and all but dictates the political narrative (with few exceptions: the alternative press has to be in a frenzy before the MSM will be forced to veer off course). I said before I am astounded that any conservative is elected in this country. Between the schools and the press, we were bound, in the long run, to have a McCain representing conservatives — the political spectrum having been shifted so far left that Hillary is your centrist, and is despised by many progressives.
I mean, this is the woman who tried to foist universal health care on the country, and even she is too far right for the progressive base.
Had a chance to watch Evan Maloney’s Indoctrinate U last night. Aside from the fact that I’m not in it and Michael Berube, who constantly derides conservatives, is — and is presented as someone who fights academic anti-intellectualism and homogeneity, no less — I quite enjoyed it, though nothing in it will much surprise those who’ve read my accounts of academia, or who regularly visits FIRE’s website.
Evan did get a host of familiar commentators, among them McWhorter, Glenn Reynolds, the aforementioned Berube, Daniel Pipes, etc. If I have a chance I’ll review the film sometime later on. I recommend it wholeheartedly, because it accurately captures the state of anti-intellectualism existing on college campuses these days — right down to the frequent instances of cornered administrative bureaucrats reacting in the only way they know how when confronted with legitimate questions: call campus security, and have the “problem” forcibly removed.
If I could raise the money, I’d love to do a follow-up in which more progressive professors were interviewed. Or ambushed, as is probably the necessary course of action. As it stands, only two, if I recall, spoke — and while their beliefs, presented with such confidence of their righteousness, bespoke the kind of insulated and politicized arrogance that is endemic to the humanities and social sciences, the sampling was such that the inevitable (and disingenuous) response to the film will be to attack the messenger, and to dismiss the message as a bit of contrived propaganda.
While Michael Moore? Paragon of truthiness!
On second thought, maybe I’ll just use this comment as my review.
Comment by lee on 2/20 @ 11:27 am #
RE: #3. I’m right there with you alppuccino. Obviously I haven’t agreed with everything W has done, but I have tremendous respect for the man for being a leader and doing what he thinks is right, whiners be damned. Also for bringing dignity and class back to the office. If it were possible, I wouldn’t hesitate to take him back for another term over any of the remaining candidates.
Comment by happyfeet on 2/20 @ 11:27 am #
frickin’ media took my korter
Comment by Dan Collins on 2/20 @ 11:30 am #
I’d love to see you interview Deranger Ric.
Comment by Cowboy on 2/20 @ 11:38 am #
Michael Berube . . . is presented as someone who fights academic anti-intellectualism and homogeneity
Jeff:
You’ve got to be kidding me. I attended a Berube lecture once, and was stunned by how common all he had to say had become.
“Progressives” like Berube enjoy the cachet of being iconoclastic, when really they represent one of the most homogenous groups ever in American culture–the university.
Comment by Jeff G. on 2/20 @ 11:45 am #
That’s the thing, Dan. Anybody know how one goes about getting investors? I’d love to interview Caric, Ward Churchill, bitch PhD, Berube, that Myers guy, and a host of better known academics, like Stanley Fish, and just about any scholar coming from an ethnic studies department. I could throw Horowitz into the mix, just because I’m a big fan of beards.
Given that much of my own field has become nothing more than political activism that uses pre-signified material as its launching point, I think I could certainly find common cause to sit down with some of the more outspoken scholars in English Departments. I could probably even secure a few big name writers who happen to teach, as well, thanks to my connections with the Writing Program at the U of Denver and, to a lesser extent, Johns Hopkins.
I’m serious, by the way. I’ve put another film project on hold because the current political climate militates against it — something new will grow from the upcoming elections, however — but I’d love to find investors for something like this.
Evan is even-handed, calm, and civil. I’d be a bit more willing to punk some of these academics — you know, appear in costume, ply them with alcohol, etc.
Somebody set up a website. Let’s do it! I’m getting the FEVER!
Comment by happyfeet on 2/20 @ 11:47 am #
I think the orange banner people could step up. It would make me think hey maybe I misjudged them and I could take them off my list.
Comment by Topsecretk9 on 2/20 @ 11:47 am #
He is not looking for credit for anything, and I think he’ll go back to the ranch when he’s done and be very happy.
He said as much in a recent interview (Chris Wallace?) He doesn’t toot his own horn (like Bill Clinton) because he does not see it as his own achievement but rather the American peoples achievement. And he notes that it’s the American taxpayer helping others.
Humility that is so foreign to progressives.
Comment by happyfeet on 2/20 @ 11:49 am #
Evan is also very handsome. Also he has three names.
Comment by Dan Collins on 2/20 @ 11:51 am #
There you go. Maybe we can pony up part of our “rebate” checks.
Comment by MayBee on 2/20 @ 11:58 am #
I do like handsome men, but I’m not getting a rebate check. Apparently we paid too much in taxes to get any of it back.
Comment by lee on 2/20 @ 12:09 pm #
Gee Maybee, I don’t know whether to congratulate you or send condolences.
Comment by Kirk on 2/20 @ 12:22 pm #
MayBee, perhaps thats exactly what you deserve for being so damn greedy.
Fair share and all that.
Comment by GF on 2/20 @ 12:46 pm #
Before Russian was closed for spying a Fulbright was arrested for drugs in 2001. In Bolivia it’s another Fulbright who’s application and file was approved by the Bolivian government. Whether is was a target of Bolivian intelligence is probably a training issue. The Bolivian Peace corps trainers need to be interviewed by the us government to see if they think they spy for Bolivian intelligence. They also need to be checked by Bolivia to see if they work for Venezuela or Russia or Iran.
The records kept for by PCVs are sent to Bolivian HCNs who are Peace Corps employees. The problem may be the HCN trainers or HCN program officers. The PCV records may be going beyond Bolivia. The Fulbright records and his study of land issues seem to point to Russia, who usually takes exception to studies beyond that of a regular PCV. The US embassy was also finishing it’s third Congressional investigation of the Walter Porrier ‘disappearance.’ Apparently a Bolivian HCN and Peace Corps employee chose to complain about the reports PCVs make to HCNs who may pass the reports along.
Comment by GF on 2/20 @ 12:47 pm #
Tide bad, sorry.
Comment by JHoward on 2/20 @ 12:52 pm #
Love it, Jeff. In the last few cycles (as we say in media) you’ve actually frequently employed the greatly tabooed S word in connection with the Holders of Otherly Truth, pointed out the cancerous bias of the conventional press’ idealism and great momentum and what that means for the business of alternative press, banged socialized Hilarycare about the head, face, neck, and shoulders, and concluded with the observation the game is rigged.
Tends to make one wonder about pendulums. Can’t help you with the investment thingie, but I can say it’s gonna swing and it’s good to see more than a few regard such. Situation sucks mightily but even el Rusbo sees that as a target rich environment.
2012!!!1!!1!
Comment by Ted Nugent's Soul Patch on 2/20 @ 12:54 pm #
Jeff, one of the things about living in the Denver area is that there really is a treasure trove of lefty nut professors to choose from, especially in the humanities. Between CU, DU, and Metro State, you could randomly pick a name and they would all be spouting the same bromides.
Comment by JHoward on 2/20 @ 12:54 pm #
BTW, Geldof, while not consistently excellent, is also cognizant of and active about the mess that is the UK’s Orwellian family law arena. HilaryCare gots nuttin’ on that quagmire. Nice to see the guy living where rubber meets roadway…
Comment by JHoward on 2/20 @ 12:56 pm #
Jeff, anybody at PJM with similar business interests?
Comment by B Moe on 2/20 @ 1:03 pm #
Can’t help much monetarily, but if you are interested in a field trip to the University of Georgia I can probably scare up some volunteer help and equipment.
Comment by alppuccino on 2/20 @ 1:03 pm #
but I’m not getting a rebate check. Apparently we paid too much in taxes to get any of it back.
Did you forget to hide a good portion of your income MayBee? What did I tell you?
Comment by Jeff G. on 2/20 @ 1:11 pm #
Yeah, JHoward. If my name were Reynolds or Barone or Hanson, maybe. Me, I can’t even land a podcasting gig. Or even a link, more often than not.
TNSP –
I used to teach at DU, and to be honest with you, as universities go — it being a private university tied to the Iliff school of religion — it is far less odious on the ideological front than might be expected.
Though the English Dept faculty hiring process always brought out the loud and crazy. Funny how much you can read of someone’s politics from either their questions or answers about literature or literary theory. I always felt as though the whole process was being conducted in a code that everyone knew, for the sole reason of keeping up the pretense that what was really being discussed was literature.
But of course, what was being discussed was gender / ethnicity / class politics — and those who didn’t give the “correct” answers were often harangued by a couple outspoken members of the faculty.
Jessica Munns, I’m looking at you, deary. And in case you ever stumble upon this? It’s quite possible to read a work or literature as an intentionally-formed piece of art / fiction — one that can just as easily eschew the dominant paradigms and historical imperatives of its contemporaneous creation as be “necessarily” discursively “created” by them, at least in the sense that new historians and cultural materialists mean.
Such fatalists, these folks.
At any rate, DU had its share of liberals and leftists, but for the most part (though there were several exceptions), aside from certain bows to PC bureaucracy, I found the faculty in my department to be intellectually honest, or at least, unlikely to punish a grad student for criticizing the foundational assumptions of much of what animated those professors’ critical work. I was friendly with a goodly many of them, in fact, though I tended even then to be a polarizing figure — which became apparent during an epic Comps battle.
But my experience is the exception, not the rule. And since that time, many of the older profs have passed on or retired. So I don’t know what the state of things is at DU just now.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 2/20 @ 1:12 pm #
I’m serious, by the way. I’ve put another film project on hold because the current political climate militates against it  something new will grow from the upcoming elections, however  but I’d love to find investors for something like this.
Open up the paypal Goldstein, i’d toss in a couple of nickels. Spurlockian fame awaits you. Well …
perhaps not the red carpet at the Kodak center, but possibly the technical awards given out behind the poolhouse of the Beverly Wilshire (the “at a previous ceremony”)
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 1:17 pm #
It was under Mr. Clinton’s watch that the US beat an undignified retreat from Somalia and left it in a quagmire from which it is yet to recover.….oh, come-on, D. what utter bullshit…the Republicans insisted upon Clinton getting out of there. All the Bush’s were saying “No Nation Building!”. Clinton in his (compromising)”Triangulation” and lack of electoral mandate only followed the critical Conservative demands (incl. the growing power of Rush Limbaugh). Remember the book Black Hawk Down and all the Republicans pissed about Clinton actually trying to save African lives? They wanted no casualties and no costs to being a good Samaritan and wanted the USA out of Africa. (Sen. Dole was an exception.) This is just another reason I despise Clinton because he tried so hard to please Republicans. But get it straight, Republicans hated the potential Nation Building mission and wanted it scuttled just like they hoped Jimmy Carter wouldn’t get the hostages out of Iran.
And what was that word Willam F. liked to through around: mendacious?
Comment by B Moe on 2/20 @ 1:21 pm #
…to through around…
Best description of a datadave post I have seen.
Comment by Jeff G. on 2/20 @ 1:30 pm #
Appreciated, OTT, but I’m not looking for PayPal donations for a project like this. I need to figure out how to get serious backers, someone willing to pay for a small crew, a few researchers, travel and lodging, production and post production costs.
Of course, with the way technology is today, the costs of production are minimal given the right equipment, much of which many people already have at their disposal (for instance, I have FINAL CUT HD for editing, and DVD authoring software — as well as software to add sound).
I think the right side of the blogosphere should send me on this mission. But quietly, so that I can sneak up on some folks. In costume. Like I did for my CITIZEN JOURNALIST REPORT at Hot Air.
Incidentally, dorkafork, who did the camera and sound and editing, moved to NY, which is why I stopped that particular endeavor. Too bad, too. Would have loved to do it, and would still love to cover the Dem convention here if I could find a way to get press credentials and a camera man / sound guy.
If anyone does drop money into my PayPal account, it will immediately be put toward a certification program I’m trying to get into. Only fifteen spots left, worlwide, forever. But as no one here really cares much about my martial arts training (except the trolls, who like to bring it up now and again for reasons only they can fathom), I won’t go into that.
Comment by Jeff G. on 2/20 @ 1:31 pm #
Oh. And happy 9 million, everyone.
Thanks so much for reading this crappy site!
Comment by JD on 2/20 @ 1:31 pm #
dd – Mendacity does not appear to mean what you think it means.
Comment by Dan Collins on 2/20 @ 1:32 pm #
You know, the crappiness is inversely proportional to the amount of Goldstein, roughly speaking.
Comment by Dan Collins on 2/20 @ 1:34 pm #
You might inquire of JD Johannes how he managed to fund his project.
Comment by lee on 2/20 @ 1:34 pm #
I could be wrong, but I remember it being GH Bush that sent the military to Somalia.
But then my recollection of history rarely matches the lefts.
Comment by JD on 2/20 @ 1:36 pm #
9,001,135th and counting. The last 500,000 or so have not been the same without you being around as much, Jeff. I will gladly volunteer to help out with camera/sound/whatever to see you inside the Dem convention. That could be one of those MasterCard priceless commercials. Hilarity ensues …
Comment by B Moe on 2/20 @ 1:39 pm #
…oh, come-on, D. what utter bullshit…the Republicans insisted upon Clinton getting out of there.
Like the Democrats are insisting Bush get out of Iraq? See, the trick is, the President is the CinC and the Buck Stops There. And that is an African journalist Dan is quoting, not Dan himself.
Comment by MayBee on 2/20 @ 1:43 pm #
Did you forget to hide a good portion of your income MayBee? What did I tell you?
Apparently, I’ve only hidden it from myself.
Actually, most of it wasn’t even income so much as expat equivalence stuff, so we could pay the $27 for laundry detergent and $1,000/month electric bills. But try telling that sob story to Nancy Pelosi.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 1:44 pm #
At any rate, DU had its share of liberals and leftists, but for the most part (though there were several exceptions), aside from certain bows to PC bureaucracy, I found the faculty in my department to be intellectually honest, or at least, unlikely to punish a grad student for criticizing the foundational assumptions of much of what animated those professors’ critical work. I was friendly with a goodly many of them, in fact, though I tended even then to be a polarizing figure  which became apparent during an epic Comps battle.
that’s the way it is most campuses in the several states witnessed…like that David Horowitz is even blogging about how nice the “liberals” are treating him in debates. In other words, the myth of a Left Wing Dominated Academy is pure Bullshit. Remembering a letter I wrote with many other grads. to help defend a left of center professor from expulsion by a conservative Democratic head of dept., the President of the U. David Pierpont Gardner fortunately saw our side of the story and resisted the CIA funded Democrat Head of Dept’s squelching of freedom of intellectual discourse or whatever you call it, Jeff. that’s 20 years ago..and if anything the Academy is getting more conservative.
carry on…..
Comment by JD on 2/20 @ 1:46 pm #
I do not recall insisting on Clinton getting out of there. I seem to recall wishing that he did not embarass us.
Comment by JD on 2/20 @ 1:48 pm #
myth of a Left Wing Dominated Academy is pure Bullshit
Source, please? Because until proven otherwise, your assertion flies in the face of logic, common sense, experience, and all known facts.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 2/20 @ 1:50 pm #
dogmadave– standing up to the CIA!
What a drama queen.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 1:56 pm #
bm…think it was Darleen. Excuse me, not even her but her quote from http://allafrica.com/stories/200802200220.html. But i think it Clinton was getting flak for what Republicans wanted: Withdrawal and No Nation Building. And I kind of like Bush’s attempts.. but his people really screwed up..thus he screwed up. It was supposed to be a 200 billion dollar thing…we spent that in the first 6 months. I wanted Saddam out in the first Gulf War. And Rumsfeld et al’s unfeeling treatment of the Iraqi people was what really disgusted me….I can see either McCain or Obama doing a much better job of “nation building”. I fear we’ll have to finish the job and my great grand kids will be still paying for it.
Comment by sashal on 2/20 @ 1:56 pm #
Bush is very good to black people, he does not invade Africans unnessesarily.
Fox News’s Special Report yesterday:
GOLER: The president says it’s better that African nations deal with African problems. White soldiers in Darfur, he believes, would be targets for all sides.
BUSH: A clear lesson I learned in the museum was that outside forces tend to divide people up inside their country and are unbelievably counterproductive.
The museum was the Rwandan genocide museum.(h/t atrios)
And I just started to believe in God(after the years of Soviet secularism).
How come He did not strike him right at this moment?
Comment by Education Guy on 2/20 @ 1:57 pm #
I could be wrong, but I remember it being GH Bush that sent the military to Somalia.
You’re not wrong. Bush sent the Marines to feed the people and Clinton changed the mission to try to take out the warlords.
Comment by lee on 2/20 @ 1:59 pm #
Ahh, I thought so. GH Bush sends troops to Somalia.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 2:00 pm #
do your own research. I just don’t see the Liberal’s running rampant on campus nor leftists. They seem to be very afraid of more jeremiads from the likes of Horowitz. Like Business School is really a hot bed of radicals..and that’s the fastest growing sector in the local U.
maybe some work now. It’s nice chatting w/ u all.
Comment by MayBee on 2/20 @ 2:00 pm #
sashal- you think God should have struck atrios?
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 2:01 pm #
I know Bush 1 sent ‘em first. But Clinton got shit for putting them under UN auspices. That’s what turned the Right against “nation building”.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 2:02 pm #
the warlords had to be taken out but the Right kinda liked them…hoots
Comment by maggie katzen on 2/20 @ 2:03 pm #
and of course nothing has changed since then….
Comment by Jeff G. on 2/20 @ 2:04 pm #
datadave –
I’m betting I have more experience in academia than do you, and there is no “myth” of the leftwing campus. DU was an exception, and only because the left-liberals on the faculty weren’t likely to punish students who held differing views. Can’t say the same for the graduate assistants.
Things were different at Hopkins and Cornell and even Towson.
Here. Buy yourself a copy. Or else shut up. I tire of listening to you talk out of your ass. In poorly constructed sentences, to boot.
Comment by MlR on 2/20 @ 2:05 pm #
What’s in it for Mr. Bush?
Same thing as for anyone else who gives away other peoples money, he feels good.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 2:07 pm #
sort of like the Haitian goons we got over there now..running Aristide off in a flight for his life to So. Africa. Or ‘death squads’ in Central America. Nice friends, the Right has there. Nation-building-No,no,no
Comment by lee on 2/20 @ 2:09 pm #
This is illustrative too.
With Clinton’s election, he “inherited a stronger international position than any modern U.S. president” (Hyland 1). However, by the time Clinton left office following his second term, he had greatly reduced the international safety and security of America, specifically in the administration’s “weak, incompetent, hesitant, and inconsistent attempts . . . to kill or capture Osama bin Laden” (Morris 95). The roadmap to foreign policy failure by the Clinton administration, which included bouts of indecision partnered with inaction or inconsistency began in Mogadishu, Somalia, barely five months into his first term in office.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 2:10 pm #
oh, master…I’ll learn from your proper punctuation etc. It’s all very Educational. I never called you nasty words…although I wonder about the Fight Club mystique. carry on…..
Cornell.. just like Vermont. Too many hippys in rusty ol Volvos. Damn they’re malicious!
Comment by sashal on 2/20 @ 2:12 pm #
Yes,maybee.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/20 @ 2:14 pm #
Which resulted in various attacks on Somali warlords, culminating in the Abdi House massacre, which pretty much directly precipitated the Black Hawk Down incident.
Cause, meet effect.
Comment by alppuccino on 2/20 @ 2:23 pm #
27 bucks for detergent MayBee,
That must be some kickass Oxyclean.
Comment by Jeff G. on 2/20 @ 2:24 pm #
Why don’t you address the substance, datadave. You talk about the myth of the leftist university. Put up or shut up.
And in the interim, if you’re able to learn a bit about how to make yourself more coherent in writing by studying how the majority of people here express themselves, consider that a protein wisdom bonus gift.
Oh. And no need to tell me to carry on. I don’t need your permission, nor am I looking for your blessing.
As I told steve the other day, I’m at the end of my rope with people like you. If you have links to back up your assertions, offer them. If not, there’s not a whole lot of basis for discussion, is there?
Days ago in a different thread you (or steve, can’t remember) expressed skepticism about the “left” media and “left” academy. I provided a number of links to studies that backed up my claims.
Now, here we are again. You try to force me to repeat the argument, re-introduce the evidence (which you’ll studiously ignore as you withdraw quietly from the thread), and waste my time putting together facts you are not at all interested in hearing.
Then, a week or so later, you’ll make the same sloppy, empty assertions on a new thread, and the dance begins anew.
Well, not for me. Not anymore.
Comment by lee on 2/20 @ 2:26 pm #
And then there’s this:
Changes in the UN leadership began to play a role in the slow shift of the officially recognized policy in Somalia. The limited objectives that were originally in place began to become much broader (Halberstam 254) due to the entrance of the new UN Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali, a supporter of Siad Barre who held a personal hatred for Aidid and was intently interested in “changing the political character of Somalia and ending Aidid’s power” (Halberstam 255). However, Boutros-Ghali would need the help of a disinterested Clinton administration in order to meet his personal goals, which were now the official goals of the UN.
The goal of the UN had now gone from providing humanitarian support to disarming the Somalis. Characteristic of the Clinton administration, no one would take a stand in outlining or clarifying the administration’s policy. In, fact when Madeleine Albright virtually echoed Boutros-Ghali in a speech before the UN, it became readily apparent that the administration “was not taking events is Somalia seriously enough, and that no one was really in charge”
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 2:30 pm #
nice trailer, Jeff. nothing new but it goes both ways… like that fucker President of Boston U going after Howard Zinn with a cleaver. He failed to get Zinn off the faculty as Zinn’s too respected and popular but the attempt was made for rightwing political correctness.
I’ll grant some schools of education and sociology could fit in the film nicely. But i knew professors so old they barely survived Joe McCarthy and they were tough and fair-minded. And there’s plenty of black budget money flowing through academia. How’d Ken Kesey get so high on LSD during or after his stint at Stanford? DoD money or CIA, forget which but it was funded.
oh, well better squelch it..it’s too fun here. later.
hello slart. yupp you’re right, national building costs.
Comment by SGT Ted on 2/20 @ 2:41 pm #
I just don’t see the Liberal’s running rampant on campus nor leftists..
What the hell are all those Womyns/African/Chicano “studies” programs but sinecures for academic Marixists who preach the dialectic thru race/class/gender templates? God dippydave, you couldn’t have picked a worse hill to die on. You were doing better on the Somalia thing, even though you had conveniently forgotten that BJ Clintons miscalculations and refusal to allow armor to be used in support of operations there because it wouldn’t look good on TV led to Black Hawk down and the resignation of Les Aspin as SecDef.
But then again, you are a reactionary leftists with no integrity. Do you realise just how stupid you appear to professional soldiers like me who see right thru your bullshit for what it is? Of course not, otherwise, you wouldn’t be spouting the nonsence that you do.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/20 @ 2:44 pm #
Not really my point, dave. My point was more along the lines of “giving the UN control of your armed forces costs”. Particularly when you take lee’s latest comment into account.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 2:44 pm #
jeff, not to get into a pissing contest. thanks. I learn a few new cussn’ words here too. Actually, maybe more links to outside sources wouldn’t be bad. More words from other sources you admire.
I’ve been linking as much as anybody even though a few wikis aren’t bad. Links can be pretty ‘original’ or fictional anyway. Hey, it’s just to keep the old juices flowing.
IMO IMO okay… I’ll use “I statements” like ben franklin used to offset his ego a braising folks. Not that I am nearly intelligent or anything. I fucked up in the Academy ’cause I didn’t give enough as to the grade-hounding aspect of it…like taking fuckn’ Chinese while being the only Non-ex-Mormon missionary in the class and they’d all already spent 2 years in Taiwan. Man, I was stupid. At least I got A minuses. I totally just did it to say I did it… and went into the trenches of small business.
I did notice a brush you had w/ Steve. I only get the maybe deserved brushoff from you. Hey, I am thick skinned thanks to PW. But learning. I appreciate Karl’s discourses esp.
Comment by BJTexs on 2/20 @ 2:53 pm #
dataless dave: Listen to the good SGT and learn something for a change.
The ROE in Somalia was a joke (first perpetuated by Bush Sr. and then expanded by Bubba) in both practicality and supporting equipment. Take a moment to to read Black Hawk Down or, even better, Tony Zinni’s biography. the 10th(?) Mountain Division was stationed too far away to support the operation, which meant that the only armor available in a frackin’ war zone was Malaysian and one other country’s. Neither wanted anything to do with moving their armor into Mogadishu. In other words, a squishy ROE and lack of armored support resulted in many hours of hell for Rangers and Spec Op forces.
Republicans gave up in disgust with Albright and Clintons’ “small footprint” concept and said either do it right or get the hell out. We all know what happened next.
SGT T. feel free to correct any factual errors I might have made as I’m kind of typing on the run.
Frackin’ clueless idiot, dataless!
Comment by JHoward on 2/20 @ 2:58 pm #
datadave. Neo-actusianism.
Comment by Education Guy on 2/20 @ 3:03 pm #
the warlords had to be taken out but the Right kinda liked them…hoots
The world inside your brain so rarely even gets close to the actual one. You would do much better if you stopped guessing and probably even better than that if you simply canned the right=bad and left=good thinking. The world really is never that simple.
Comment by lee on 2/20 @ 3:04 pm #
Son of a Bitch Data Dave, you are nearly incomprehensible! Deciphering nishi is easy next to you. It’s like you just keep on token as you blog.
At least nishi is sometimes worth it.
Comment by JHoward on 2/20 @ 3:07 pm #
Jeff, think guerrilla.
Compose a manifesto. Post it as a linked pw feature. Have it constitute a petition, letter of intent, whatever. Invite folks to sign aboard with their comment (edit for multiples, trolls, datadave, et al.)
Let it run for a period of time. Since pw routinely subscribes 500-comment threads, making such a device a accessible feature strikes me as a entirely valid way to show a crapload of interest. We are, after all, the smartest neo-neoconian libertarian-like anti-troother banditos in these ‘Tubes.
At critical mass, make PJM and/or others aware. RUUUPERT!
There’s no valid reason, at the least, that you aren’t front page at PJM. It’s a step, no?
Or, is there any juice over at NRO?
Comment by lee on 2/20 @ 3:10 pm #
BJTexs,
The ROE in Somalia was a joke (first perpetuated by Bush Sr. and then expanded by Bubba) in both practicality and supporting equipment.
From my second link above, this is probably a more succinct explanation:
What is unfortunate about the failed raid on Aidid is that Clinton had made assumptions as to when and how the raid would be carried out and because of the lack of leadership in determining exactly what he was approving, as well as the lack of understanding of military protocol, Clinton approved “a military assault on hostile territory” rather than “an aggressive police action” (Clinton 553). Clinton would later say, “I was responsible for an operation that I had approved in general but not its particulars” (Clinton 552).
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/20 @ 3:10 pm #
While you’re pondering JHoward’s suggestion, Jeff, can you recommend a workout book/DVD/whatever for kettlebells? It’s hard to know what’s good before you buy it.
Comment by JHoward on 2/20 @ 3:11 pm #
The myth of the leftist university?!
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Educate/dominated_by_left.htm
Comment by MayBee on 2/20 @ 3:15 pm #
Slarti- I’m not Jeff, but my husband and I do The Art of Strength:Providence.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 3:28 pm #
You’re very correct about NRO. This place Rocks compared to that joint.
I read BHD. yupp. Entertaining and propagandistic and anti Clinton. Halpern went on to be a big speechwriter for GW btw.
nishi…? wow. she’s hard for me but fun. Love her. I use dialogue, leaving out some spelling and articles.
Perhaps, our descendants will be speaking like the Chinese: IM language: minus articles and unnecessary connectives. Californians used to make fun of the Chinese way of speaking by leaving out the the’s, and’s, etc. But that’s the way it is. Long Time No See is how it is in Chinese. It’s the oldest extant language. And so is pared down for speed and quickness. The writing part though is where finesse and care is needed and tradition is or was maintained.
But this thread was about something else.
Comment by daleyrocks on 2/20 @ 3:30 pm #
But i knew professors so old they barely survived Joe McCarthy and they were tough and fair-minded.
Have you been doing their lawns too, datadave?
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 3:32 pm #
wrong about Halpern..it’s Bowdon…not a speechwriter…sorry got ‘em mixed up
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 3:32 pm #
maybe kitchen remodels. learn a lot that way
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 3:34 pm #
u no iz frikn naz reedn alz d linx
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/20 @ 3:39 pm #
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/20 @ 3:40 pm #
Thanks for the heads-up, Maybee; I’m looking through their website.
Comment by Christopher Taylor on 2/20 @ 3:43 pm #
This violates two narratives, not just the “Bush hates blacks” one but the “World hates us because of Bush” narrative. This won’t get press because it hurts Obama’s chances in the General too – reminding people that President Bush has been so very good for blacks around the world, not just in the USA is not helpful for the media’s quest for a Democrat in the White House.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 2/20 @ 3:50 pm #
You ever going to correct your thousands of other errors?
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 3:59 pm #
don’t scare her, Slart gotta love Jeff in the redneck costume. Damn, good burpn’. what happened to that mercenary/fitness guy on all the websites selling Russian kettlebell videos? He even has a house in China offshore.
Comment by Jeff G. on 2/20 @ 4:37 pm #
I use Steve Cotter’s Extreme Kettlebell Workouts and Steve Maxwell’s Cruel and Unusual Kettlebell workouts. I use Cotter for legs and core; Maxwell for muscle endurance. He has a 15-minute workout called the “Heaven and Hell” that is short, but that works your entire body.
Cotter’s leg workout nearly kills me — mostly on the cardio end. That’s the best thing about kbs: you end up working cardio as much as a particular muscle group. Plus, you are working on grip strength and arm and shoulder strength even when you aren’t ostensibly doing so, because holding the bells in place is no easy task, either.
Comment by Jim in KC on 2/20 @ 4:49 pm #
Or, perhaps, they’ll simply grunt. And point.
Comment by MlR on 2/20 @ 4:59 pm #
“The ROE in Somalia was a joke (first perpetuated by Bush Sr. and then expanded by Bubba) in both practicality and supporting equipment. Take a moment to to read Black Hawk Down or, even better, Tony Zinni’s biography. the 10th(?) Mountain Division was stationed too far away to support the operation, which meant that the only armor available in a frackin’ war zone was Malaysian and one other country’s. Neither wanted anything to do with moving their armor into Mogadishu. In other words, a squishy ROE and lack of armored support resulted in many hours of hell for Rangers and Spec Op forces.”
Here’s a short synopsis.
Bush I sent in 30,000 Marines under UNITAF, with a mandate to use overwhelming force and give food to Somalis. There was already a failed mission called UNISOM I that was in the eastern part of the country with more ambitious political goals.
During the latter end of Bush I and Clinton, the UN (with implicity US approval) expanded the UNISOM I over the rest of the country. UNISOM II had a mandate to create a democratic government over the entire country. It also had a large US contingent and three different lines of command. US, UN, and the rapid reaction force.
UNITAF, and the limited mandate -upon which the mission had been sold to the American people- was over. Hence, when UNISOM goes South, the American people are baffled as to why it went from feeding Somalis to rebuilding the country and reacted by demanding the withdrawal.
There’s plenty of blame to go around. It also resembles our current situation in Afghanistan, with the competing mandates of OEF and ISAF.
As to the subject, sure, it is nice to put a finger in the eye of the idiots who think George Bush is a racist, uncaring fool. But I think it shows the Republican Party is in a serious crisis of identity when their metrics of “caring” have become the same as the Democrats, see also “No Child Left Behind.”
The bottom line is you can’t outspend socialists, only become them). The US government and bureacracy hasn’t gotten any better, the aid programs are still mostly scams, we’ve just thrown more money down the rathole. Now we’re going to bitch about Obama’s welfare to the world agenda and we’ve sent billions of dollars of other people’s money to one-worlder projects. And we wonder where Huckabee’s Christian socialism comes from…
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 2/20 @ 5:47 pm #
” But I think it shows the Republican Party is in a serious crisis of identity when their metrics of “caring†have become the same as the Democrats, see also “No Child Left Behind.”
Preach on brother man.
Comment by B Moe on 2/20 @ 5:50 pm #
Or, perhaps, they’ll simply grunt. And point.
Many songwriters in Europe write songs in English. I had assumed it was to try to break into a bigger market, but discussions with them revealed the primary reason was English was a much larger and more expressive language than most of their native tongues. That is what disapoints me most when I see current trends toward dumbing it down.
Comment by dumbshit on 2/20 @ 5:57 pm #
Doon be disappoint’n man, Iz jus dialoguen
Comment by cuteseedumbshit on 2/20 @ 6:01 pm #
1 day all u old ppl will b talking like i do
heehee
Comment by Bender Bending Rodriguez on 2/20 @ 6:42 pm #
Many songwriters in Europe write songs in English. I had assumed it was to try to break into a bigger market, but discussions with them revealed the primary reason was English was a much larger and more expressive language than most of their native tongues.
Funny, I just had an IM chat this week with a great singer/songwriter in Sweden who told me the same thing. She says English suits pop/rock music like Italian suited opera, almost all of her Swedish compatriots write in English (and Swedish indie is one of the hottest scenes going). She wrote and released a record in Swedish recently, and was surprised by how difficult it was to turn out decent verse in her native tongue.
Comment by Jim in KC on 2/20 @ 7:00 pm #
B. and Bender, that’s just further proof of America’s cultural imperialism. McDonald’s everywhere. Television. Blue jeans.
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 7:36 pm #
How’d Ken Kesey get so high on LSD during or after his stint at Stanford? DoD money or CIA, forget which but it was funded.
Blast!
Hey, DoD or CIA !!
Your mama wears army boots.
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 7:41 pm #
DoD money or CIA, forget which but it was funded
Thanks, dd.
There’s your Sugar Daddy, Jeff.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/20 @ 8:03 pm #
Thanks for the recommendations, Jeff. I had been looking at Cotter’s stuff, but it’s hard to tell unless you know someone who has a copy. I’ll probably pick that one up, and possibly Maybee’s suggestion as well.
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 8:28 pm #
Steve Cotter’s Extreme Kettlebell Workouts
“Every time a Kettlebell rings, a neo-con shaves his head.”
Accidently.
Comment by Darleen on 2/20 @ 8:43 pm #
M1R
In many respects I agree. I wanted to bang my head against the wall vis a vis “No Child” because I believe the best thing the Feds can do for education is to butt the f*ck out. Let locals KEEP their money and use it.
But at the same time I applaud what America is doing with the malaria thing in Africa. Not only did we do the work of distributing mosquito netting, but doing the seedwork of getting African’s up and running of manufacturing their own netting.
You know, that “teach a man to fish” lesson.
And I have no beef with America doing humanitarian stuff in disaster situations … ie I was proud when GW dispatched the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln to help immediately after the earthquake/tsunami disaster in 2004.
Comment by narciso on 2/20 @ 8:57 pm #
Haiti’s a country with wonderful people, but their leadership is abysmal, Dave. For a former French colony it parodies the economic & social relation
ships of pre-Revolutionary France. Louis XV11, Robespierre, and Napoleon, all within a short span of each other. Duvalier, the original cookie cutter oligarch, was a former ethnologist student activist, who got his start in the campaign against the 19 year U.S.Occupation; directed in large part by Asst.
Sec. of the Navy Roosevelt. The marines arrived because the previous President, Gillaume Sam, was
hacked to death on the front steps of the
Presidential Palace!. Years later, Smedley Butler,
the David Hackworth of the ’30s; would say it was
the ‘role of international bank robber & enforcer; but really when there’s this vaccuum of power, it needs to filled. See, this is the bad karma that
Aristide was saved from, when he was out of the country in ‘91, and when he was ‘kidnapped’ and sent
to Equatorial Guinea and S. Africa
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 8:57 pm #
1 day all u old ppl will b talking like i do
Except for the we’ve-got-all-the…
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 9:00 pm #
-punctuations part.
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 9:11 pm #
Comma, Obama?
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 9:12 pm #
And, evidently, some of us already do.
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 9:16 pm #
Coma Obama.
Comment by maggie katzen on 2/20 @ 9:18 pm #
chameleoooooooon
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 9:51 pm #
Lovin’ would be easy if your colors were like my earrrrrrrs…
Comment by Barry O on 2/20 @ 9:56 pm #
Take my wife, please.
Comment by happyfeet on 2/20 @ 10:03 pm #
This is the happy nine million thread. I wanted to say something earlier but this guy who is doing work around the office and has been like total Code Pink about how a lot of people just don’t think about this stuff, meaning some documentary he Netflixed, and he went on quite a little tear at lunch – we ordered in and I don’t know what that was about really – we never do that. But I think he thought I was like into it cause I kind of stared at him the whole time and when I finally got a minute to get on my laptop he was right there like behind me wanting to raise my freaking consciousness or whatever and he was looking at the title of this post trying to puzzle it out what it meant and so before he could figure it out I shut my laptop. I really wanted to say congratulations though cause that’s not nothing. Ten is better though.
Comment by Barry O on 2/20 @ 10:10 pm #
guy who is doing work around the office and has been like total Code Pink
Allowed to roam freely?
Comment by guinsPen on 2/20 @ 10:12 pm #
Oops.
Comment by happyfeet on 2/20 @ 10:14 pm #
Yeah. He does things with the wires. The ones in the wall. I have no idea what the lunch buddy thing was about. I just kind of work there.
Comment by Pablo on 2/20 @ 10:15 pm #
Though we’ve strayed waaaaay off topic, I just want to mention that Bob Geldof is the man, and I thought that long before I heard about this. A class act, all the way.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/20 @ 10:32 pm #
I guess I don’t like him because he’s got “geld” in his name. And gelding makes me veer away, sharply.
Comment by Pablo on 2/20 @ 11:04 pm #
Did you know he’s raising the kid his ex-wife had with Michael “Oops, I choked a bit more than my chicken.” Hutchence after she OD’d on heroin?
That’s a solid guy, unfortunate name aside. And he’s managed to pull the Rock Star cred without ever actually being much of a rock star.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 11:04 pm #
http://www.mattfurey.com/ That guy was all over the internet. Don’t see him that much anymore. The Steve Cotter guy seems more legit. But Matt is one wonder of a huckster. I give him credit for that but I heard that his books are more like poorly printed pamphlets, but that they od provide a nice workout. I used to practice RyuKyu Kempo Jitsu, before that Tai Chi. Both were good workouts.
Nice eclipse. A full Obama.
Thank you, narciso. I wonder though about the comparison of treatment concerning Cuban vs. Haitians as to immigration. Anyway, Haitians didn’t get full welfare benefits when they landed in Florida… and they left a hellhole of a place as least as bad as Cuba.
A novel juxtaposing the USA and Haiti is Russell Banks’ Continental Drift which is entrancing.
I would never call Bush a racist. But about ‘No Child…” the better the teacher, the more she(he) hates it. It’s called teaching to the test.
Irony strikes again: My son has a high school teacher who is driving him nuts. Here’s politically correctness for you. The teacher is openly gay at least in actions, supposed to be an English teacher but demands that teachers do extensive drawings and paintings of Greek Warriors (nude mostly) instead of teaching them to write or read well (just reading the Odyssey). It’s more drawing and painting than is reasonable for an English class. And he does vocabulary tests that are inappropriate for High School. My kid’s got awards for his writing and the teacher is still teaching vocabulary and little else as to writing. Then to top it off, the gay guy is a Jesus freak who’s using the Public HS English class as a pulpit saying things like “you have to read the bible and be afraid of God in order to be civilized”.
WTF! Which way should I worry? That the teacher’s fixated on nude guys on Ancient urns, or teaching orthodox christianity in a public English class instead of critical thinking and writing?
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 11:05 pm #
students drawing I meant
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/20 @ 11:12 pm #
I don’t know what No Child Left Behind is actually supposed to be, but I do strongly suspect that my child would be left behind, if it weren’t for such things as IEPs, and laws with a modicum of teeth in them to back them up.
Comment by happyfeet on 2/20 @ 11:17 pm #
datadave do you like do cabling and stuff?
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 11:19 pm #
i don’t but larry does
yeah, and I had to suffer through karate classes with my son as Slart’s kid would beat mine up otherwise.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 2/20 @ 11:20 pm #
datadave.
I just don’t find you believable.
Zero credibility. None at all. The hell of it is, that I don’t think you’re deliberately dishonest. I think you must actually believe this stuff. But you get so much, that’s so easy to check, wrong and so consistently, it can’t even make the cut as bad fiction.
And the little personal vignettes; I’m sorry, but I have no pathos quota to meet, so they just offer no illumination, no eddification, and they’re likely based on the same flawed assumptions and perceptions that drive your other… leavings here.
datadave–Value Subtracted Commenter.
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 11:22 pm #
ah, ode to a Grecian urn. spent part of the nacht drawing an urn anyway. Kid can’t draw.
I’ll draw you a cable, hap.
g’nite…been entertainin’
Comment by datadave on 2/20 @ 11:33 pm #
RTO… bizarro to you, that’s me. But I am honest and occasionally make mistakes about facts and I’ll correct them. Republicans were highly critical of Clinton’s “nation-building” in Somalia, even PW’ers above agreed to that. And now tell me that Haitians and Cubans got equal treatment as to illegal immigration. Why were we paying Cubans to immigrate and throwing Haitians back into a cesspool? Politics? Tell me that’s not a fact.
Hey, it’s a post. I don’t edit that much, obviously. Maybe I’ll go to BigThink.com so then I’ll have to edit or something? When you consider the funny vulgarity that goes on…why bother to edit? It’s not a treatise.
my vignettes are true although I have to check other parents about that teacher….that’s a twist on the political correctness stuff Jeff and I argued about.
sheesh. you guys get all worked up.
Comment by B Moe on 2/21 @ 12:34 am #
WTF! Which way should I worry? That the teacher’s fixated on nude guys on Ancient urns, or teaching orthodox christianity in a public English class instead of critical thinking and writing?
What? You would rather he teach to the test?
NAZI!!!!
Comment by lee on 2/21 @ 1:15 am #
. Republicans were highly critical of Clinton’s “nation-building†in Somalia, even PW’ers above agreed to that.
The reason dave, is that US forces were sent there for one reason (not nation building), and then Clinton let them be co-opted by the UN to do their agenda (nation building). Then Clinton didn’t even take care to make sure our guys didn’t get mixed up in a cluster fuck, and good men died badly and uselessly.
THAT’S what is objectionable. It has nothing to do with “we were against it then but for it now”. They are totally different circumstances.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/21 @ 7:44 am #
dave, you need to quit repeating these silly statements as if they haven’t already been responded to, in this very thread.
What lee said, in comment #69, 75 and #138. Also, what I said back in comment #78, and what BJTexs said in #80. Sorry if others also contributed. What I’m saying is there’s no shortage of counterpoint to your repeated statements to the effect of nation-building, and you’re completely ignoring them. If you don’t agree, then disagree.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/21 @ 7:48 am #
…because as it is, you appear to be a) not smart enough to understand the counterarguments, or b) so much in denial that you can’t make yourself read them.
Probably there are other choices, but these kind of leap to mind. I don’t actually believe that you’re dumb enough for a) to be true, but I’m going to treat you as if you are until such time as you start acting as if you are.
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 7:57 am #
Rumsfeld: you go to war with army you have.. (Yes, there was ‘mission creep: the mission required for the people to be fed and ’saved’ and to do that the warlords had to be taken out…as they were stealing the food shipments and using them to control and starve the population..)
Conservatives politically turned tail and Osama and his friends laughed and said let’s do it again…(a little snippet in Black Hawk Down etc. shows that Islamic-fundi’s were aiding the warlords..)
You used the loss of a handful of men to scuttle the mission, because you hated the President. Sounds like how Republicans scuttled Jimmy Carter. And gave Iran arms for hostages, turned tail in Beirut. As much as I hated it, Clinton did defeat the Serbs (who had some legitimate concerns about they’re being ethnic cleansing of themselves in Kosovo…but the Serbs were extremely barbaric in their solution to that)….where have Republicans had a success anywhere? Then you wonder why many Americans can’t stand a domineering, posturing Decider for a President. Conservatives poisoned the water long ago.
b moe. It’s just a funny vignette about what seems to be a weird 9th grade teacher. I am not going to the mat on that issue, my son’s getting A’s. As you can guess the boy can be pretty “critical”. And he’ll get a better teacher next year. 8th grade is when they have the obnoxious tests. My g/f as an English teacher moved to 9th grade to get away from it.
Comment by Patrick Chester on 2/21 @ 8:16 am #
Slarti advised datadave:
But… but… datadave saw NOTHINK! Read NOTHINK! So datadave thinks there is NOTHINK! in:
It’s sort of like that Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal, except you wrap a towel around datadave’s head and he thinks that if he can’t see it then it doesn’t exist.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/21 @ 8:22 am #
Ok, I’m now officially mystified how dave has managed to keep from starving to death, purely from not being smart enough to self-feed.
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 8:35 am #
I guess we’re doing “political posturing”. Sorry to take your time, Slart…we’ve got 7000+ hits since this started.
I didn’t like Clinton and held my nose voting for him thinking another conservative Democrat. But I have a hard time getting over those two first years of his Presidency and how god awful the Press and Rush Limbaugh and Republicans treated him. I listened regularly and never heard such hate and disrespect from the media towards a modern President. Reagan had his teflon and Bush 1 was relatively treated well, considering the economy sucked under him. And Clinton caused a lot of it…by not standing up to it. Ruby ridge, Waco, the nuts shoot first and asked questions second… and then blamed the govt. People forget that law officers were killed in both instances by rightwing nutjobs. He Triangulated and tried to please his critics. The ultimate was Oklahoma City. He had a chance then to turn back the Right Wing groundswell but instead played it nice. He could have kept the Right on the defensive, played up his positives, their negatives…but instead wallowed in it with some intern. You can’t play nice with those who are not nice. He even had the FBI against him and much of the Press against him because he was trying too hard to be class president of a high school, not a President of a divided nation. And yet we did have those long years of recession-free economy and balanced books. No more. Shit, the guy was relatively successful compared to the present occupant of the oval office. I await Obama’s or Hillary’s baptism in fire.
Sorry, slart. I will try to be briefer. I just have to respond to the ‘groundswell’ out of respect I guess. I read the arguments and they all seem politically motivated. If one starts a process it’s probably better to finish it….as opposed to Powell’s docttrine in the first Gulf War. Saddam should’ve been taken out then I thought, or at least we shouldn’t have turned our backs on the Kurds and Shiites and let them be slaughtered. Bush 1 could have tried harder at finding a solution.
Sorry, if I piss you off. I am being consistent.
You have a unique and intelligent perspective, but I see a mixed economy being the future. Govt. will be a big part of it…especially if you have a militarized nation. I do find the hard core Libertarians much more consistent and honest in their simplicity but simple minded. Their policies would be disastrous if ever implemented. PW has a more nuanced view and a big portion but a minority of the Republican party seems attuned to this view but I don’t see it as much more than traditional values with cynicism mixed with intellect. With a dose of Reductio ad absurdum vs. my perhaps reductio ad nauseam.
have a good day. Sun’s out.
Comment by Pablo on 2/21 @ 8:36 am #
Sweet Jesus God! The darkness! The darkness!
Please, people. I beg you. Don’t get sucked into that black, black hole.
Comment by maggie katzen on 2/21 @ 8:47 am #
I thought Murtha convinced Clinton to withdraw.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/21 @ 8:56 am #
Yes, people just like us!
Me? Wow, you never know how powerful you are, until someone tells you that you’re the Prince of Darkness. For the record, though: I never had an “Impeach Clinton” bumper sticker on my truck. For most of the 1990s, I was far too busy actually working to worry all that much about politics; Clinton was at most a recurring annoyance and disappointment to me.
Now, for the serious response: dave, you are sadly misinformed. You speak of “the mission” as if it were a constant, when in fact it was a variable. Operation Restore Hope was overtly tasked to aid in distributing food, including combat operations as needed to ensure the delivery of supplies. UNOSOM II was, overtly, all about nation-building.
Now, I’m going to try and say this slowly, on the off chance that you’ll both read it and understand it: Bush got us into Somalia on humanitarian grounds; Clinton allowed our forces to be subverted for nation-building, without us having much in the way of say regarding what “nation-building” might reasonably encompass. We’d already drawn down to just a couple of thousand troops, and then we got sucked into a major combat operation, without armor, and without anything like a supply chain. THAT was why we pulled out: because it was either all the way out, or all in; nothing in between made any sense.
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 8:57 am #
dick morris…is that your ’source’? Lee…fuck off, idiot. Osama wasn’t even on the radar in early 90s..Dick Cheney was shaking his hand then.
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 8:59 am #
sounds like Iraq.
what more can I say?
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 9:01 am #
http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2007/12/27/
wow, this conservative cartoonist is speaking to me…what’s going on?
Comment by Pablo on 2/21 @ 9:05 am #
Oh, really?
Lemme guess, 1992 was not in the early 90’s.
I’d ask, but I can already imagine the “photograph” of that handshake that appears to be a photo of a chubby sneering guy and a tall dude with a beard shaking hands… rendered in crayolas.
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 9:09 am #
lee, it said “morris” so what’s your source? and what does it matter? Richard Clark was on top of the Osama threat and Bush 2 and Condi ignored his warnings. #69
“THAT was why we pulled out: because it was either all the way out, or all in; nothing in between made any sense.” so you agreed that Clinton did the right thing — pulling out. I thought PW in generally blamed Clinton for doing that– retreating from terrorists. I think we should’ve staid and did some good…it would have been cheaper and more lasting than what we are doing in Iraq…but I know they didn’t have any oil or strategic value…..perhaps they might have considering it is a major portion of the African coast. The President can change his mind and explain changes …but not to just bully through.
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 9:16 am #
Internally, al-Qaeda considered the bombing a victory that frightened the Americans away, but in the United States the attack was barely noticed.
Lemme guess, 1992 was not in the early 90’s.
that it is what I said….except obviously the last blooper.
That Cheney shaking Osama’s hand picture was shown by Tim Russert after 9/11 and Dick closed the show down …refused to appear in Russert’s show until Tim discarded the offending pic. Can’t seem to find it anywhere since then. Cheney was congratulating Osama for his help in Afghanistan against the Russkies. You call that censorship, I do too.
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 9:20 am #
sarcasm yupp…but we’d just chased the Soviets out of Afghanistan and weren’t that concerned about the crazy Islamics that helped us in Afghanistan. Early 90s. Like Osama was talked about then. sarc.
gotta go to work too. slart. I work alone mostly so I can listen to the radio. Staying informed. Even Rush once in awhile. Sad, I know.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/21 @ 9:28 am #
Somalia wasn’t about international Islamic terrorism; it was about first one thing, then a completely different thing that we had no say over.
If you can find anything in the PW archives that made you think that pulling out of Somalia pissed off the average reader (not that there is any such thing), please show it to me.
As a general criticism, you tend to indulge yourself in the error of thinking of the PW audience as some sort of lockstep intellectual collective. While it might be true that there are some broad areas of agreement, it’s also true that there are broad areas of disagreement. You might have missed those, though, during those long stretches of not paying attention.
And, sure, some of us are very hard on people that show up and disagree, even when they’re not being dickheads. SEK is one of my favorite dissenters, and it’s nearly a spectator sport when he pisses off some regular or other. I have a high regard for him, though, even if I frequently disagree with him, because he makes good arguments.
Which is something you might want to consider looking into.
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 9:30 am #
I’ll try. This is a challenging and thought provoking place to hang out. Thanks.
Comment by Pablo on 2/21 @ 9:32 am #
Gee. Imagine that. I suppose Russert took that shot himself and burned the original at Darth Cheney’s request. And damn, nobody TIVO’d it. Can you imagine? And oddly enough, it seems that datadave was the only person ever to see this.
OK, it’s gotta be true. The Secretary of Defense was publicly hobnobbing with Osama while he was plotting attacks on our personnel and assets. I feel so enlightened now, dave.
Comment by Pablo on 2/21 @ 9:37 am #
BTW, was this the MTP episode, dave? They totally edited the handshake picture part out, right?
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/21 @ 9:38 am #
These are the droids you’re looking for, Pablo.
No charge.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 2/21 @ 9:39 am #
Oh. Osama. I doubt Cheney’s ever been within 100 miles of Osama.
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 12:49 pm #
yeah, it could of been the famous Rumsfeld and Saddam pic. Maybe it was the fevered pitch of the time. Okay. I’ve looked and not found it either and shouldn’t have mentioned a thing I thought I saw……but I remember a pic and sudden cut in the video prime time Sunday morn and a return to the discussion minus pic. Maybe it was the Rumsfeld pic but it was after 9/11 and I thought it was Cheney congratulating Osama for his services and money for the Mujahideen . Cheney was very supportive of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/04/the_logic_of_ch.html It could have happened but like the Rumsfeld and Sadam pic maybe not a big deal. Just seemed uncomfortable to me seeing a pic of something and, poof, a cut in the video.
I looked before and couldn’t find it either… Paranoia? You bet. Pablo might have got the right date of video I was pretty busy at the time. Now, that I got more time I’ll research this crap I remembered.
Comment by lee on 2/21 @ 1:18 pm #
Lee…fuck off, idiot. .
Wow, where did that come from? I haven’t been disrespectful to you dave.
lee, it said “morris†so what’s your source?
Everything I quoted came from the link at #69, an article by Darrin Dykes at Helium.com. The sources are his. Perhaps you should click on the link and read the article yourself, that’s why I went to the trouble to provide it. You may learn something and relieve yourself of confusion over timelines and such.
Or don’t, if you prefer to keep pushing nonsensical arguments.
Comment by Andrew on 2/21 @ 2:34 pm #
He’s not that nonsensical actually, just drinking a smidge too deep of that free-flow-at-all-costs style, to the detriment of grammar. That, and he doesn’t use capital letters, which is just plain annoying. More fractured English the Internet doesn’t need.
I will also say that he’s been a rather even-keeled chap, which alone makes him preferable to some of the screaming mimis we get around here. But hey, one man’s shrieking violent is another man’s truth-to-power. And all that cal.
Comment by Education Guy on 2/21 @ 2:47 pm #
Or don’t, if you prefer to keep pushing nonsensical arguments.
Yes, that’s very much what he would prefer. He is still at that stage where he think things are true because he thought of them.
Comment by lee on 2/21 @ 4:06 pm #
He’s not that nonsensical actually
OK, admit it Andrew. You haven’t read the whole thread, have you?
Comment by datadave on 2/21 @ 5:38 pm #
I apologize, Lee. Hard to keep the many attackers apart. I didn’t see the link.
The thing about this posting is that PW puts up several topics a day and rarely the discussion last more than a day so we have to move on. This was Darleen’s thread and I’ll at least agree with the mainstream here that Bush isn’t a rascist. He’s concern for Africa is a good thing, but I wish more effort was done for Darfar and the Congo’s problems. But Africa seems to be trying for a change to help itself.
Our Rwanda policy might need more scope. Are the Hutus now the underclass again with Tutsi’s dominating them? That’s what started the whole thing up in the past. And the Congo’s loss of life eclipsed Rwanda’s by a factor of 3 to 4 (3+million lost as opposed to 800,000 in the Rwandan genocide) but hardly any noticed. But that is an unnecessary tangent. Like the references to other things above….I was only reacting to the orginal post of Darleens and then Jeff’s discussion of academic freedom or lack of.
backing away from the saloon door. c’ya.
Comment by guinsPen on 2/21 @ 8:48 pm #
Congratulations, dd.
You’ve officially knocked PIATOR down a rung.
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